Is S-PVA good enough or should I only get an IPS panel?

albovin,

Let's agree to disagree on this. You seem to like a lot the NEC LCD2490WUXi, which is IPS. I'm not familiar with this monitor, and maybe it is indeed great and doesn't suffer from the grainy look and glow of most IPS panels. However, I can tell you that at 30", the best monitors are PVA and not IPS. I have tested 30" monitors extensively (both PVA and IPS), and the best ones right now are PVA. If all you care about is gamma shift, it's one thing. But if you're looking for the best overall 30" monitors at this time, they are PVA, not IPS. The Eizo CG301W is better than the NEC LCD3090WQXi, and the Samsung 305T is better than the Dell, Apple, HP, etc. 30" IPS monitors. This is based on extensive personal experience with all these monitors. Again, there's less gamma shift on the IPS monitors, but the PVA monitors win on many other fronts (less grainy look, better contrast, less heat, less backlight bleeding, no glow).
 
visualguy said:
albovin,

Let's agree to disagree on this. You seem to like a lot the NEC LCD2490WUXi, which is IPS. I'm not familiar with this monitor, and maybe it is indeed great and doesn't suffer from the grainy look and glow of most IPS panels. However, I can tell you that at 30", the best monitors are PVA and not IPS.
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I think you forgot the IMO disclaimer here. A great deal of folks will take the graininess (which only some IPS have) and glow (corrected on the 2490/2690) over the gamma shift. Heck I prefer TN screens to PVA screens.

IMO (note the IMO disclaimer) PVA tech is in also ran status, behind even TN and far behind IPS. I will buy either TN or IPS panels but I won't go near another PVA.

I don't expect other people to agree with me, but I do expect them to recognize that their opinion isn't fact. Just because you prefer PVA, doesn't make it best in an objective sense. It just means you prefer it.
 
Snowdog,

I mentioned the gamma shift issue. If that's what you care about the most, then IPS may be the best choice. Other than that, I don't see any benefits to IPS. That's not just a matter of opinion. If you know of any advantages, please list them. Even that advantage doesn't always hold. For example, the NEC LCD3090WQXi image doesn't look good from an angle. It's not a gamma shift issue in that case, it's the glow, but it still doesn't look good. Again, I haven't seen the magical 2490; maybe it's different.

At 30", I strongly recommend PVA unless gamma shift really bugs you. For example, the superiority of the CG301W to the LCD3090WQXi is based on objective facts, not opinion. The less grainy look, better contrast, lower heat, less backlight bleed, lack of glow, ability to calibrate sRGB, all are objective advantages, not opinions. The only subjective aspect is how much you care about gamma shift. I personally don't care much about that - the other things I mentioned are much more important to me. Maybe some people have a big issue with gamma shift, and for them IPS makes sense (but they better pick one of the few that don't glow at an angle, if they indeed exist).
 
visualguy said:
IPS vs. PVA is a pointless religious argument. Both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages. Depending on your main applications and your preferences, you may pick one versus the other, but neither one is superior to the other on all fronts. The quality of the whole monitor as a complete product is also very important, by the way.
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Indeed, the 24 and 26 inch NECs may be the closest things to it, but there really is no all around computer LCD that wins on all fronts. And contrast ratio certainly comes to mind. Some of the best S-PVA based monitors (e.g., Eizo 22", latest Dell 27") have measured contrast ratios of around 1400:1 or better...
 
visualguy said:
I haven't seen the magical 2490; maybe it's different.
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What is this, willful ignorance? You really need to see one then. Look at the factors.

Grain: Your main gripe (not an IPS feature).

You must know the screen coating (graininess) is a factor of the AR (Anti-Reflective) coating. Everyone says it is much better on the 2490/2690. Why don't you believe them? You can put any kind of coating over the screen. There have been several IPS screen with Glossy screens. These have ZERO grain if you are a zealot about grain. (NEC 20WGX2, Apple 24" iMac, Hazro HZ24wi.
No grain here:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1297031&page=3


Glow vs gamma/color shift:

You make a lot of hay out of the glow, but I had used a couple of IPS monitors and never noticed it until it was pointed out to me and I bought a 30" IPS.

The "glow" kicks in further off axis. It doesn't really change the image content, it puts a uniform glow layered over the image. It doesnt actually change revealed details. The monitor is much more suitable for image editing.

The PVA gamma-color shift is much worse than the glow. It happens non uniformly to the image you are looking at. So different amounts of detail is revealed depending on viewing position, or screen position and image content. Making the monitor much less suitable for image editing. As with Albovins tortoise, how do you know what the correct amount of shadow detail is when it keeps shifting depending on where it is on screen, where you head is etc. This IMO is a monitor killer for imaging work.

Its gamma/tone shift happens in all directions but because of stereo vision it gives some small portion of us who are sensitive a lot of grief. I see a Holographic/Phony 3d/Magic Poster effect using a PVA screen that is very annoying/tiring/headache inducing. For me this kills the monitor for any usage. Things just never look right either. Various shades of gray on this page turn into a silver glow at the sides and where it is glowing moves if I do. It is a horror show IMO. But I realize this only affects a small minority. If I wasn't this could at least have this monitor compete with TN panels, but it wouldn't compete with IPS.

Even if you not sensitive to the effect. It really does impair the monitor for imaging work. Similar to a TN screen. I went through 2 PVA screens before I got a TN. The TN was blissfully easy on my eyes and none of the PVA weirdness, so I can use it for general usage and entertainment, but it is also unsuitable for image editing because of its shift. But at least it is suitable for gaming.

Lag.Another PVA weakness:

These are the slowest reacting panels on the planet. I felt the lag on the desktop the moment I hooked mine up.

PVA is suitable for general office work and internet surfing if it the shift doesn't bother you.
Unsuitable for gaming because of lag.
Unsuitable for imaging work because of the shifting shadow detail.
Completely Unusable to those sensitive to phony 3d - shift headaches.

TN is suitable for everything but image editing (again gamma shift, but in the vertical).
IPS is suitable for everything.

The above is why I recommended the OP buy a monitor somewhere with an excellent return policy and jump in. Because only then will he know if he is a "grainy screen" zealot like Visual Guy (thus avoid 30" IPS), or if he is sensitive to the stereo vision effect of PVA horizontal shift like me, and thus should avoid VA, or just seeing the vertical shift on TN drive him nuts. Etc....

This time I am going to make a specific recommendation to the OP. Skip the 24" doublesight which has an S-PVA and almost certainly lags among the worse available and go for the 26" doublesight which is IPS and almost certainly has very little lag. You did mention gaming after all. Or save even more and go with a TN based Benq 24" (G2400/V2400).
 
I think the problem with PVA is mostly that it pretends to be something it is not. Samsung and Eizo are doing what they can to persuade people, that PVA is as suitable for professional graphic monitors as IPS technology. And even more, they dare to sell these monitors for the price as high as IPS models, sometimes even more!
Eizo is very successful in some countries, in Czechia many people would buy an Eizo monitor for an absurd price even if it would have plywood instead of a LCD panel :)

Anyway, if anyone wants a PVA - why not? Just don't pay a king's duty for it and don’t complain, that the sides of the monitor are lighter then the centre, especially well visible on hardforum.com :)
 
I'm a grainy screen zealot. I hate that look. My one caveat to my 2005FPW, the dirty screen look.

The LCD2690WUXI-BK has probably one of the most consistent and clean AG coatings I've ever seen, second only to the BenQ FP241VW which has a very light amount of coating, but will show more glare. I have seen horrible examples of this myself, so I can confirm, the LCD2690WUXI-BK has very little, if any of this.

In regards to IPS vs. VA, it's a subjective thing. For me, HardForums is always read on IPS or CRT or TN. With a VA monitor the weird gamma shift on horizontal axis with greys starts to bug me after a while. For gaming, my FP241VW MVA is great, as it is pretty good for general (white background) office work.

For example, here is a photo of my BenQ and it's horizontal gamma shift with the [H]F. IGNORE the left side as that is glare, but from the middle to right, you can see a slightly amplified version of this effect, as the camera will always amplify glare and/or light changes.

If you look at the bottom post on the screen where there is less glare, it's an indication, albeit slightly amplified, of what you get:

2422359227_3e2eaf083c_b.jpg


One could say "this is just one MVA screen", but this is a problem inherent to all VAs to basically the same degree, so one has to know that they can or cannot live with this.

On white backgrounds or even light grey this does not show up.

It's a question of taste and needs.

LordJezo, if your main use are gaming and movie watching, PVA and MVA should be fine. But I would repeat the recommendation that you should buy one from a reputable shop that has a good return policy. Also, until the DS-245 is out and reviewed I would hold off on it unless you can easily return it. You don't want another Dell 2408WFP situation like many here have experienced where you don't want to move the mouse or game on it.
 
I would agree that IPS is overall superior to PVA but ISP is FAR from being perfect.

For example, IPS panels generally feature poorer black than their PVA counterparts. Video noise is also a common issue with IPS panels.
PVA's superior contrast ratio should not be underestimated.

In the end, it depends of the feature you prefer and the one you cannot stand.

BTW, I have own many IPS and PVA monitors and I have generally been happy with all of them.
 
I own a PVA Dell 2405 FPW, and my brother has 2 tn panels by Asus and Samsung respectively.

The TN panels don't look as good compared to even my PVA panel. 6bit versus 8 bit ;) For actual usage in gaming, the TN panels do feel much better though.

As for the PVA shift issue i don't think i've noticed it or know what to look for. The only thing i noticed in PVA is my counter strike reaction started sucking compared to when i was playing using a CRT. I play counter strike better on a TN panel.

I am going to get my first HP S-IPS panel so i can comment more on a real world comparison later. I hear it has a glow at an angle, so not sure how bad it is gonna be :x but the Hazro and the NEC both have a polarizer that prevents any white glow from occuring which according to users, who say it works.


Anyway this is my rankings

H-IPS > S-IPS > S-PVA > TN

My usage is gaming, watching videos and browsing the net. Even if i don't get the best latency compared to TN, as long as it's playable and doesn't suffer noticeable ghosting or input lag, BUT IT OFFERS better quality image and color as the counter balance, then thats the monitor i would go for :D which is either H-IPS, S-IPS or a S-PVA. leaning more toward IPS types though :cool:
 
I will add that I owned a Dell 2405. How can you not see the shift? It drove me so nuts I had to sell the panel a couple of days after buying it. It also lagged horrendously and smeared with any movement. It is a hideous panel. If you can stand using a 2405 you can use anything.

My preference is IPS > TN > VA.

TN trumps VA because it is faster, cheaper, has better horizontal viewing stability and 6 bit (+ dither ) color issue is way over worked. Color looks excellent on TN.

There is only one downside for TN. The vertical viewing angle.
 
TN? There's no way I would use something with less than 8 bit color. How pathetic is it that we're even talking about such a thing in 2008?

As to IPS, it would certainly seem superior for professional imaging. The darker in the middle effect, etc., of PVA is admittedly quite real. Which makes it unfortunate that IPS lags so heavily in contrast performance...

(Of course, with CRTs having contrast ratios of 15,000:1 and LCDs swimming in the less than 2000:1 range, maybe it's best to focus on LCD's superior size and text quality, lest one get too sad...)
 
SH1 said:
TN? There's no way I would use something with less than 8 bit color. How pathetic is it that we're even talking about such a thing in 2008?
Click to expand...

That would be the case if it were really that simple, but it isn't.

Modern TN panels produce 8bit color through FRC. To most people outside of test patterns, it is pretty much indistinguishable from "real" 8 bit color.
 
There is sadly big problems with all lcd panels. IPS is a bit slower, have quite poor black levels and they seem to suffer a bit with input lag looking at Hazros models anyway.

I really doubt the image quality on a S-IPS screen justify twice the cost of a S-PVA monitor. I do have a SPVA LCD TV that even though it doesn´t match a Trinitron CRT of course I have been very happy with. Colours is just as good though. Watching movies you almost forget it´s LCD because the skin colours look so natural. Except one big thing input lag. Pretty much all S-PVA based monitors have severr input lag. If you are competitive in racing or fps games then I think you should look elsewhere. Just for single player gaming it´s really not that big deal. At least not for me. But I am getting a monitor for my racing games primarily :)

Thought about IPS but decided to go cheap on MVA panel... Couldn´t find that so I ended up with TN in the end. Colour shifts is the biggest annoyance with it. On my LCD TV that is pretty much a non issue. Perhaps since I sit further away the angle differences isn´t so sever. I have checked for it and if I really move around I can notice it just about... I can understand people not liking TN panels for this reason but S-PVAs then it feels like nit picking :)
 
A lot of the comments about gaming didn't specify the game type. FPS and racing games require a lower response time than say, an MMO or Sims ;) Spore should be pretty undemanding too...:)
 
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