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Is all digital out equivalent?

R

Ryan711

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 16, 2004
Messages
1,173
I'm looking for a soundcard to get optical out from my HTPC because I didn't realize that the mobo didn't have it integrated. I'm looking to get something cheap and I just wanted to ask since it's coming from optical and going into a receiver that the sound will pretty much be the same despite the cost.

This is what I'm currently looking at: http://www.rocketfishproducts.com/pc-171-3-rocketfish-51-channel-pci-sound-card.aspx
 
Yes and no.

Yes in the sense that things like the D/A conversion and the initial analog amplification will have the most impact on the resulting sound quality and those occur downstream of the digital output (inside the receiver in your case).

No in the sense that different digital outputs can have different capabilities in terms of being able to do different clockrates (can it put out 48khz digital or 44.1khz? How about 96khz? How about 192khz?). Digital outputs can also add jitter, etc to the signal in some cases.
 
Ryan711 said:
I'm looking for a soundcard to get optical out from my HTPC because I didn't realize that the mobo didn't have it integrated. I'm looking to get something cheap and I just wanted to ask since it's coming from optical and going into a receiver that the sound will pretty much be the same despite the cost.

This is what I'm currently looking at: http://www.rocketfishproducts.com/pc-171-3-rocketfish-51-channel-pci-sound-card.aspx
Click to expand...

that sucks... you might be able to find a USB>SPDIF converter thingy with features that are actually of use to you for a similar price
 
here ya go this is the most bullshit-free thing i could find:

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/248-599_L.jpg[/
[URL="http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-599"]http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-599[/URL]
 
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Coaxial > Optical Toslink > USB

USB is the lesser of the 3 for academic technical reasons which you don't really need concern yourself with.
SPDIF wins, it was designed from the outset to carry audio signals, oh and keep your cables short (< 2m if you're using optical).
 
GotNoRice said:
Yes and no.

Yes in the sense that things like the D/A conversion and the initial analog amplification will have the most impact on the resulting sound quality and those occur downstream of the digital output (inside the receiver in your case).

No in the sense that different digital outputs can have different capabilities in terms of being able to do different clockrates (can it put out 48khz digital or 44.1khz? How about 96khz? How about 192khz?). Digital outputs can also add jitter, etc to the signal in some cases.
Click to expand...

If you have Windows 7 though it won't matter, the OS controls all output sampling rates and it's adjustable by the user.

Jitter exists except the amount of time-delay is no greater than 5-8 picoseconds in modern devices. It's highly unlikely that you can sense 5 trillionth of a second.

The real issue with digital optical is that it's FR curve starts to slope downwards around 22 KHz, while Multi CH analog inputs will in most receivers stay flat out to over 80 KHz (and in some receivers out to 150 KHz but it's purely academic at that point).
 
i'm not sure that the frequency response curve would really matter at that level as the frequency range which humans can perceive is roughly 20 Hz - 20 kHz.
 
dont get USB. USB audio devices in the past in my experience have been overpriced and sub-par
 
myelin1 said:
i'm not sure that the frequency response curve would really matter at that level as the frequency range which humans can perceive is roughly 20 Hz - 20 kHz.
Click to expand...

Well you can probably only see up to 16bit color but that won't stop humans from moving towards high fidelity :p
 
astrallite said:
If you have Windows 7 though it won't matter, the OS controls all output sampling rates and it's adjustable by the user.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the hardware capabilities of the digital output. Many for example, can do 48k or 96k but NOT 44.1k, which is necessary if you want to do bitperfect with most audio.
 
astrallite said:
If you have Windows 7 though it won't matter, the OS controls all output sampling rates and it's adjustable by the user.

Jitter exists except the amount of time-delay is no greater than 5-8 picoseconds in modern devices. It's highly unlikely that you can sense 5 trillionth of a second.

The real issue with digital optical is that it's FR curve starts to slope downwards around 22 KHz, while Multi CH analog inputs will in most receivers stay flat out to over 80 KHz (and in some receivers out to 150 KHz but it's purely academic at that point).
Click to expand...

But if your sound card doesn't support X rate, windows 7 cant do jack to change that...? or am i confusing rate with things like DTS, AC3 and so on..,
 
GotNoRice said:
I was referring to the hardware capabilities of the digital output. Many for example, can do 48k or 96k but NOT 44.1k, which is necessary if you want to do bitperfect with most audio.
Click to expand...

Bit-perfect doesn't exist anyway...modern DACs like Ti/Burr Brown, Wolfsen, AKM, etc all natively upsample to 24/96 or 24/192. At most with the bit-perfect hoop-jumping you are just limiting the number or resampling cycles a signal goes through prior to amplification.

Consistent bit-perfect output is impossible through Windows 7 because sampling rate output is locked at the sample rate you select in the Sound & Programs Control Panel (easily tested with a receiver when you pull up the input data display).

After that, consider the resampling a processor or receiver DAC does...every sound signal you have is repeatedly resampled throughout the chain anyway.
MrGuvernment said:
But if your sound card doesn't support X rate, windows 7 cant do jack to change that...? or am i confusing rate with things like DTS, AC3 and so on..,
Click to expand...

I think this has to do with driver support. I do understand some soundcards that lack driver support with Windows 7 may not come up with all of the sample rates . For example, the ATI HDMI output only has 16/44, 16/48, or 24/48 if you just plug and play. Install the drivers and you get 16bit and 24 bit options for 44, 48, 88, 96, 176, 192. Windows 7 needs at least basic device drivers to figure out what to do.

An example of REALLY bad driver support is Realtek which after you install the drivers, has LESS sampling rates available than the stock Windows drivers... (88 and 176 are removed from the Win7 panel).
 
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Slightly off-topic, and I apologize if I'm not wording this accurately, but whenever I have tried using digital outputs (both SPDIF and Toslink Optical) from my sound card to my receiver, I have noticed there is never a persistent "stream" of data sent from the sound card, as if the connection is switched off while not being used, and then switched on when a sound is being processed. And when the connection is switched on, there's a slight delay in the time that it switches on and plays the sound. This causes many short sounds to never be heard, and it drives me crazy.

This is most noticeable to me while browsing in Windows. For instance, when expanding folders in Windows Explorer in XP, there is a subtle "click" sound byte that plays. While connected via digital out, I do not hear this sound, unless I expand a number of folders rapidly. I've actually noticed the same exact behavior on my PS3 on the dashboard.

This problem does not exist when using the analog ouputs on my sound card or HDMI on the PS3. I've tried different cables, different receivers, and haven't been able figure it out. Is this just a limitation in the technology?
 
Mabu said:
Slightly off-topic, and I apologize if I'm not wording this accurately, but whenever I have tried using digital outputs (both SPDIF and Toslink Optical) from my sound card to my receiver, I have noticed there is never a persistent "stream" of data sent from the sound card, as if the connection is switched off while not being used, and then switched on when a sound is being processed. And when the connection is switched on, there's a slight delay in the time that it switches on and plays the sound. This causes many short sounds to never be heard, and it drives me crazy.
Click to expand...

The clicking sound is typically when receivers are changing modes, from PCM/Pure Audio/Stereo/Direct/DD/DTS/HD-sound, etc. I do believe this switching sound can be fixed by going into your receivers setup menu and manually selecting the sound mode, setting it to Pure Audio mode under all input conditions. See if that works out for you.
This is most noticeable to me while browsing in Windows. For instance, when expanding folders in Windows Explorer in XP, there is a subtle "click" sound byte that plays. While connected via digital out, I do not hear this sound, unless I expand a number of folders rapidly. I've actually noticed the same exact behavior on my PS3 on the dashboard.
Click to expand...

This has actually nothing to do with your previous problem. The click a standard Windows sound that is attached with switching folders. Chances are with different outputs certain applications are muted/unmuted by default. This is something you should be able to address in the Windows sound mixer.

This problem does not exist when using the analog ouputs on my sound card or HDMI on the PS3. I've tried different cables, different receivers, and haven't been able figure it out. Is this just a limitation in the technology?
Click to expand...

I can't explain that. All my receivers (two Yamahas, and an Onkyo) make clicking sounds when switching sources, and this occurs all the time on PS3s when going from games to dvds to OS due to the change in input stream.
 
A13X said:
... or you go for this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829126004

pci interface might have less jitter than USB, idk
Click to expand...

This or at least something similar. You don't need anything more than this if you are running a regular Dolby Digital/DTS amp. Will work fine. If you want multi-channel gaming you will need something with DD Live or DTS Connect, or if you're wanting HD sound you'll want something with a bit more kick. But for a regular HTPC you need only a basic card. Anything more is a waste since all the decoding is done amp side. You shouldnt really need to spend more than $20 for the card.
 
astrallite said:
The clicking sound is typically when receivers are changing modes, from PCM/Pure Audio/Stereo/Direct/DD/DTS/HD-sound, etc. I do believe this switching sound can be fixed by going into your receivers setup menu and manually selecting the sound mode, setting it to Pure Audio mode under all input conditions. See if that works out for you.


This has actually nothing to do with your previous problem. The click a standard Windows sound that is attached with switching folders. Chances are with different outputs certain applications are muted/unmuted by default. This is something you should be able to address in the Windows sound mixer.



I can't explain that. All my receivers (two Yamahas, and an Onkyo) make clicking sounds when switching sources, and this occurs all the time on PS3s when going from games to dvds to OS due to the change in input stream.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, but I may not have accurately described my issue. To simplify, if my PC is not currently outputting any sound, and I invoke an action that would produce sound output, then the first ½-1 second of the sound output is never produced. Extremely short sounds, such as the Windows XP default click sound produced when selecting a folder via Windows Explorer, are never heard if there is not currently an existing output stream.

For example - I open Windows Explorer and browse folders to my stash of MPS. All the while that I am browsing through folders, the Windows click sound of selecting a folder is never heard. Upon selecting an MP3 to play, the file opens in my selected media player, though the first second or so of the song is not produced. While listening to the MP3 via the media player, I then switch back to Windows Explorer, and begin browsing other folders. At this time, I can now hear all of the click sounds when selecting folders. In fact, I can even pause the MP3, and browsing folders produces the click sound as normal. However, as soon as I close the media player, I can longer hear the clicking sound that I should be hearing when selecting folders.

Again, this occurs only when I select digital output. Analog output exhibits none of this behavior, and all sounds are produced normally.
 
If you are opening windows repeatedly then even if the receiver is on some sort of "standby" mode it should eventually start picking up the clicks without needing you to turn on your media player.

I would say grab a computer at a local Best Buy and see if the problem persists, if not, then its the Windows XP drivers.
 
Mabu said:
Thanks for the reply, but I may not have accurately described my issue. To simplify, if my PC is not currently outputting any sound, and I invoke an action that would produce sound output, then the first ½-1 second of the sound output is never produced. Extremely short sounds, such as the Windows XP default click sound produced when selecting a folder via Windows Explorer, are never heard if there is not currently an existing output stream.

For example - I open Windows Explorer and browse folders to my stash of MPS. All the while that I am browsing through folders, the Windows click sound of selecting a folder is never heard. Upon selecting an MP3 to play, the file opens in my selected media player, though the first second or so of the song is not produced. While listening to the MP3 via the media player, I then switch back to Windows Explorer, and begin browsing other folders. At this time, I can now hear all of the click sounds when selecting folders. In fact, I can even pause the MP3, and browsing folders produces the click sound as normal. However, as soon as I close the media player, I can longer hear the clicking sound that I should be hearing when selecting folders.

Again, this occurs only when I select digital output. Analog output exhibits none of this behavior, and all sounds are produced normally.
Click to expand...

You have something set up wrong. Settings on the receiver or in your pc.
 
I have heard the Logitech Z-5500s have an audio-dropout issue with optical, so it could be his receiver.
 
Receiver is a Denon AVR-1910, and PC sound card is an HT Omega Striker. I tried a number of different sound modes last night on the receiver, including Pure Direct, and no luck. Also tried using both coaxial and optical cables, and still the same results. Same goes for the PS3 on optical.

I do have a set of the Z-5500s, so I'll try hooking up both components to them later. I also just picked up an Onkyo TX-SR507 recently that I can mess around with as well.
 
Update: I hooked up my PC to the Z-5500s using both optical and coaxial, and sure enough, had the same exact experience as on the Denon receiver. I then hooked up the PS3 to the Z-5500s using optical with the same result. Also asked a buddy of mine to try the same with his PC and receiver (some Samsung HTIB recevier), and he also experienced the same behavior. He told me that he'd never even noticed it before until now.

A little bit of googling turned up this thread that confirms my issue. I'm going to try a few of their solutions there and see if they work for me.
 
A lot of people don't get the difference between the specs and the options offered on their motherboard.
 
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