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Is 2689 -bigadv out??

There has been no official announcement from Dr. Kasson yet saying these have been released.
 
There has been no official announcement from Dr. Kasson yet saying these have been released.

A server glitch, a late announcement or a beta tester?? I do remember that you were rather coy when i mentioned that they were listed on psummaryC. ;)

How did you put it - "glances at his i7 920 and whistles"? If these are them there are going to be some SR-2 posting silly numbers:D
 
I just sent an email to Dr. Kasson asking him if they've been released yet or if this is a glitch.
 
A server glitch, a late announcement or a beta tester??
The first thing I did was check to see if this person was an "official" beta tester, he is not.
 
It explains the huge production spikes I've observed the beta testers producing recently. That's an absurd amount of points for a single hex-core (can't imagine a dual), and it will only become more extreme in a few months with the release of high frequency SB processors.

How did you put it - "glances at his i7 920 and whistles"? If these are them there are going to be some SR-2 posting silly numbers:D
Yeah, making everyone else running anything less look like they're still folding with Socket-7 Pentiums from the '90s. Well, I guess we're well on our way to the launchpad of infinity... /shakes head
 
Yeah, making everyone else running anything less look like they're still folding with Socket-7 Pentiums from the '90s. Well, I guess we're well on our way to the launchpad of infinity... /shakes head

Socket 7? Hell i've still got my old socket 5 gateway p90 in the attic - just need a psu and hdd and i bet it would run. Might be a shits and giggles project for next year
 
I have been training for this for weeks.

I have bigadv finishing in 3 hrs, 6 hrs and 9 hours. Lets see what lands.:p
 
The OP on MaxPC is over 47 hours old, had it been anything other than a glitch.. I think we may have heard of other reports by now.
 
I also bet it's a glitch because I didn't see a formal announcement and there is no other report.
 
Socket 7? Hell i've still got my old socket 5 gateway p90 in the attic - just need a psu and hdd and i bet it would run. Might be a shits and giggles project for next year

If you enjoy having 1 ppd, go ahead :D
 
Socket 7? Hell i've still got my old socket 5 gateway p90 in the attic - just need a psu and hdd and i bet it would run. Might be a shits and giggles project for next year

I wonder whether my 486/66/DX2 will fold. I still have it sitting around under a desk in the guest bedroom, which is now my folding room.
 
From Dr. Kasson:

They're not released past beta. There's a known bug that can occasionally send them into the wild, though, and that's what likely happened here.
 
Ok, he has posted his rig and stats: (Apollo, look away buddy :()

Configuration: Core i7-970@4347MHz, 6x2GiB DDR3 [1512MHz, 8-8-8-24, 1N] , Se7en_x64, -smp 12
Project number: 2689 (8-7-9)
Work unit: p2689_t=66ns
WU size: 25,20 MB
WU result: ~ 101,5 MB
Credit: 139634,49
Frames: 100
Core: GRO-A3
Server IP: 171.67.108.22
PPH (points per hour): 3784,32
PPD (points per day): 90824
Avg time per step: 0:22:08
Bonus factor: 11,6986
Client.cfg: bigpackets=big, type=0
Completed: 38%

Maths time: So 22:08 x 4347 his clock speed / 4305 my clock speed / 1.98 scaling to double the cores (a guess) = estimated frame time of 11:17, round up to 11:20.

235,000 ppd. :eek::eek::eek:

This is obviously with a few assumptions, but likely to be within 5% or so, which means we are still very likely to be looking at over 200,000 ppd on all my machines.

Why on earth would they feel the need to goose a unit that much higher?
 
This is obviously with a few assumptions, but likely to be within 5% or so, which means we are still very likely to be looking at over 200,000 ppd on all my machines.
Your calculations are right on par with my quick mental extrapolation. My projection came out to 240-245K PPD.

Why on earth would they feel the need to goose a unit that much higher?
The WUs are on a set factor for bonus calculations. These WUs are just faster processing and so produce that much more points. The hyperbolic bonus graph scaling is the cause of the disproportionate increase.

Bottom line: once SB processors are released with close to 5GHz capabilities, we will see single processor machines well in excess of 100k PPD. If anyone doesn't see a problem with this, I don't know what more can be said.
 
MYBH (May You be Hopeful) - Do not get your hopes up too high. The points may not be final and they could very likely be adjusted once they are released from beta testing (it has happened before).
 
Or to restate what I said in MYBH's cyber-stalking thread, don't ass-u-me too much.
 
they need to be. PPD like that will kill F@H. because it will cause people with lower end systems running standard smp to get frustrated and just give up on the project.

because thats exactly how i feel. if that ends up being the final PPD for that WU i'd rather stick with WCG. my 3300 points a day isnt going to make a lick of difference.
 
because it will cause people with lower end systems running standard smp to get frustrated and just give up on the project.
I'd like to say more on this but I can't but there is more that I'd like to say. We will just have to wait and see what happens when they are released.
 
they need to be. PPD like that will kill F@H. because it will cause people with lower end systems running standard smp to get frustrated and just give up on the project.
I am 90% there with what is already public release. I haven't made big upgrades since A3 was released because my future in the project is hazy. I have at least 20 clients and none are classic low producing clients. I just don't see why this person with a single SMP client (I don't care what CPU he's running) is producing 75% of my farm. It just doesn't make sense no matter how one cuts it. I care as much for the research as anything else. If I am producing scarcely that much more science with my entire farm than his one system, then I'm definitely doing something wrong or involved in the wrong DC project. :confused:
 
I'd like to say more on this but I can't but there is more that I'd like to say. We will just have to wait and see what happens when they are released.


yeah i know what ya mean. im pretty sure PG will changed the kfactor multiplier. with a 22 minute TPF on that guys system im predicting they will be more in line with the 2686 or 2685's. because i quite remember a while back they had some rediculous numbers on other beta bigadv WU's. if anyone remembers back what 3 months ago when a couple of the beta testers were returning 160k+ point bidadv WU's. which when they went public ended up being around 110k points on similar systems.
 
yeah i know what ya mean. im pretty sure PG will changed the kfactor multiplier. with a 22 minute TPF on that guys system im predicting they will be more in line with the 2686 or 2685's..
They need to do more than that. Even if they 'normalize' the P2689's production, the whole bonus system's structure is still problematic. When new architecture, especially multi-socket, will become available, we'll be back in the same conundrum.

The problem is the non-linear system we have currently in place. Newer faster WUs combined with new architecture will make the bonus allotment unsustainable and untenable. A hyperbolic curve indicates that at some point, whether it's new hardware or new WUs or a combination of both, we will inevitably reach a processing scenario where 'gravity' becomes negligible, meaning even slight increases in performance i.e. slight decreases in TPF yield astronomical gains in PPD. Yet, that slight increase in speed translates to zero benefits with the actual research generated. A slight decrease in TPF does not translate to a real-world advantage in discovery commensurate with the incentives difference the accruement suggests. It's a mathematical dilemma wherever there's a hyperbolic curve employed.

I honestly cannot see why we need a non-linear bonus graph when a linear, less inclined graph will accomplish the very same thing (incentives) without gross exaggeration in production versus research accomplishment.
 
I didn't make it clear in my post above - I hope they don't release a unit so disproportional, and I am assuming they won't. Surely they won't create new problems with a new unit rather than fixing old ones... Don't get me wrong, I would love to receive one by accident for benching purposes, and it would be fun to see 700,000+ PPD in HFM, but not at the expense of our non-bigadv brothers. I do not want the bigadv points skew to accelerate.

Since they released the 6900 and broke the bigadv drought, I am basically happier because I no longer see 6701s for one third the points I could be getting. Now the worst that happens is you get a bit over half of points capacity 2684 - thankfully on only 10% units received. I would rather they just rejig the 2684/6701 points and be done with it. But if they don't it is no longer the big deal for me.

Variation in PPD of 12% between a slow 2685 and 2686/2692/6900 is fine. Adds to the fun. But if they release the 2689 as is, then suddenly 90% of the units you get will be a disappointment.

I am perfectly happy to see this as reward for unpaid betatesting.;) So Xilikon/DAB... so take it from someone with a lot to gain, this is not what we want! Proving the point about the silliness of complete beta secrecy - leaks/mistakes like this are a very good thing to head off problems like this before they happen.

@Punchy - I hope you caught my apology in that thread.
 
They need to do more than that. Even if they 'normalize' the P2689's production, the whole bonus system's structure is still problematic. When new architecture, especially multi-socket, will become available, we'll be back in the same conundrum.

The problem is the non-linear system we have currently in place. Newer faster WUs combined with new architecture will make the bonus allotment unsustainable and untenable. A hyperbolic curve indicates that at some point, whether it's new hardware or new WUs or a combination of both, we will inevitably reach a processing scenario where 'gravity' becomes negligible, meaning even slight increases in performance i.e. slight decreases in TPF yield astronomical gains in PPD. Yet, that slight increase in speed translates to zero benefits with the actual research generated. A slight decrease in TPF does not translate to a real-world advantage in discovery commensurate with the incentives difference the accruement suggests. It's a mathematical dilemma wherever there's a hyperbolic curve employed.

I honestly cannot see why we need a non-linear bonus graph when a linear, less inclined graph will accomplish the very same thing (incentives) without gross exaggeration in production versus research accomplishment.


dont worry im in the same boat as you bro.
 
I honestly cannot see why we need a non-linear bonus graph when a linear, less inclined graph will accomplish the very same thing (incentives) without gross exaggeration in production versus research accomplishment.
That is obviously wrong. Just about every system that depends on a work-reward curve to attract participants uses a non-linear system.

MMO experience gain - non-linear
Equipment stat gain / over all player power gain - non-linear
Return on loan investment - non-linear
Hell, even worker pay is a non-linear increase as you go up the ladder.
 
That is obviously wrong. Just about every system that depends on a work-reward curve to attract participants uses a non-linear system.
It may seem wrong to you but F@H had one decade without one and all was fine. The examples you cited are apples to oranges and my arguments still stand.
 
What I don't understand is why aren't they using a flat I.E. Linear points system. The GPU projects are what I'm thinking about.

I don't see the problem with that. An increase in processing power is still an increase in points gained.
 
What I don't understand is why aren't they using a flat I.E. Linear points system. The GPU projects are what I'm thinking about.

I don't see the problem with that. An increase in processing power is still an increase in points gained.
EXACTLY. You nailed it. A non-linear system creates greater and greater disproportion the higher up the curve one goes. A linear bonus structure accomplishes what's intended from the outset without needless exaggeration.
 
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The WUs are on a set factor for bonus calculations. These WUs are just faster processing and so produce that much more points. SNIP

But this unit is a fraction slower in frame times than 6900/2686 etc but faster than slow 2685s which is why I am confused as to why it merits a new K factor.
 
But this unit is a fraction slower in frame times than 6900/2686 etc but faster than slow 2685s which is why I am confused as to why it merits a new K factor.

it doesn't. its a closed beta thing almost all the closed beta bigadv WU's are worth more then what they end up being when they are released to the general public. the 2686's when in beta were the same way. they were making like 140-160k points per WU. and we know they arent worth that much now. its why you have to take numbers from the beta program with a grain of salt. the only real number that matters are TPF's. the kfactors can always change. hell they can change them mid project if they wanted but they wont.
 
Is it? I haven't any similar hardware to compare with. I don't know what's going on if you're right. :confused:

His rig is very easy to extrapolate from - it is almost exactly one half of one of my faster rigs. His posted ppd and times for various projects line up very neatly to what I would expect. I have pretty high confidence in my estimates of what I would get if released as is. As others have pointed out this is not necessarily the case, lets hope not and communicate such though Xilikon/DAB.

for me:

2686: 10:48
6900: 10:50
2685: 10:50 (fastest units)
2689: 11:20 (Extrapolated)
2685: 12:00 (slower units)
2684: 15:20

So I thought this 2689 was basically going to be a 2684 Mark-II (long running) with points rejigged to bring it back into line, and maybe a little more - and perhaps it is working out faster in testing that was thought originally. But this leaked unit is right in the middle of the pack of recent bigadv frame times, which means IF they do release it as currently then their intention must be to attract even more bigadv folders. (unless it has something wacky like more than 100 frames)

Given that 6900s are flooding the system (54% of my bigadv since release) I imagine they might not release it soon, even if ready.
 
I agree that the bonus system is heading in a crazy direction.

The major problem is PG is damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they do an across-the-board decrease in K-factor, for example, you better believe a lot of bigadv-capable owners will be crying in their beer as their PPD suddenly drops. They might quit as well.

Bottom line, there are two sides to every coin.
 
The major problem is PG is damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they do an across-the-board decrease in K-factor, for example, you better believe a lot of bigadv-capable owners will be crying in their beer as their PPD suddenly drops. They might quit as well..
True. I posted all the way back in the summer that Pandora's Box has been opened. There is a way to accomplish this and mitigate the absurdness while satisfying most of the single client big producers. Flattening the bonus line isn't going to hurt anyone _that much_ (depending on the gradient decided) but it could prevent the huge discrepancies we are seeing now and into the future. Unfortunately, any worthwhile solution is the lesser of two evils because it comes after the fact.
 
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First off, I agree that the whole bonus thing is causing problems. Maybe if bonuses got added to all types of work, CPU and GPU alike, that would alleviate some of the heartburn.

I agree that a nonlinear curve is unsustainable - but remember, the bonus curve is not a full curve. The function is truncated at 10x so that bonuses don't become infinite. Even so, the formulas will need to be adjusted as technology marches on.

I do see the reason for the nonlinear curve for time-sensitive work. If Stanford wants to motivate people to build machines that are faster and faster, the bonus has to be nonlinear. Why? - because the price of faster and faster systems goes up in a nonlinear way as well. If they kept it linear, people would stick with more, smaller systems, getting equivalent points at a much lower cost. I'm not saying it's right, just that it accomplishes their "fast return" objective.

P.S. Yes, MIBW, I saw your apology, and thank you, but that won't stop me from poking you with a sharp stick when you get too excited again
 
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I'd like to be clear to those who may have mistook what I earlier posted that I'm not advocating a return to a static, non-compensatory rewards system. I want the 'best of all worlds' scenario to the extent it can possibly be realized. What I and others refer to when stating 'linear' is not the static value system of the past, but a linear or straight bonus adjustment in opposition to a 'hyperbolic' or curved bonus accumulator we have presently, which is the cause of the inflationary situation we're increasingly seeing now with greater and greater performance. The current state of affairs yields an ever increasing points accruement for a diminishing return in completion time reduction of work. It is not prudent or practical for many reasons.

I do see the reason for the nonlinear curve for time-sensitive work. If Stanford wants to motivate people to build machines that are faster and faster, the bonus has to be nonlinear.
I respectfully disagree. The bonus in and of itself satisfies the additional incentives requirement. There was no bonus adjustment prior to -bigadv, and hardware had always been upgraded dependent on what was available at the time. Heck, I experienced my most fervent upgrade phase of recent times a year or two before -bigadv ever went public.

Why? - because the price of faster and faster systems goes up in a nonlinear way as well. If they kept it linear, people would stick with more, smaller systems, getting equivalent points at a much lower cost. I'm not saying it's right, just that it accomplishes their "fast return" objective.
So, those who can already afford or through uncommon professional privilege have access to high-end hardware, be granted further favor by sole virtue of their station, is that what you're postulating? Isn't it sufficient to meet the financial diminishing returns mitigation of stated concerns by the implementation of any form of bonus accruement to the incentives system? Wouldn't it be more sensible to simply adjust the degree of a straight line to attain a 'sweet zone' in an attempt to avoid hyperbole and excessive remuneration while maintaining gracious compensation?

I totally concur and have been supporting a bonus structure that should be universally employed across all projects; otherwise the incentives system causes another form of disproportion between client types, but that is a topic for another day and another thread. I would like to see a more tempered bonus accumulator with greater proportion (truer representation) for research completed. We can increase or lessen the gradient of the bonus to impart higher compensation, if need be. It is a curved (non-linear) bonus line that is inevitably the cause of exaggerated, disproportionate rewards.
 
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I think the bottom line of what you're saying Apollo in simplistic terms is that you're OK with the with the current bonus point equation, as long as the coefficient (or exponent?!) is decreased.

If so, I think I agree.
 
wow to many big words. I'm completely lost. guess thats what i get for failing english 3 times in high school :D
 
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