Introducing the NVIDIA TITAN RTX GPU

DejaWiz

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They've kinda greyed that area now. There doesn't appear to be a card for strictly gaming anymore.

GeForce + Titan --> Gaming / Compute (AI/ML)

Quadro --> Workstation / More Advanced Compute

Tesla --> Datacenter / Large Compute
Don't their certified drivers state otherwise?
 

iQuasarLV

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I would say Nvidia has greatly muddied the waters on what their card models are being marketed to.

I suppose the next step is to see apologists saying that $2,999 for a Geforce card as a prosumer/Pro+ card and not gamer marketed. All because it does things the Quadro or Titan did not do the previous generation. /RME
 

dvsman

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I was waiting for this announcement to see where things would shake out - and wow! That's a big nope for me this time around.

Given that EVGA just released the "bargain" 2080ti @$999 unless the performance delta is substantially better than 2x 2080ti, it's definitely hard to justify for just gaming.

For me, better luck next time Nvidia. I think I'll just wait and see what 7nm Vega 2 will look like. I mean, it can't be more expensive than the current gen 20xx cards, can it?
 

NoOther

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The very first Titan was clearly a rebadged and price-DROPPED Quadro, due to the insane FP64 capability, which caused "prosumers" (read: business and enterprise customers) to scoop much of them up, cutting their costs at least in half over buying the Quadro variant.
The next gens of Titans had shit-tier FP64, forcing these customers back into the much higher priced Quadro product realm.

The Titan name was purely targeted for gamers from the get-go, since it fit with the Ti (Titanium) naming scheme of nVidia consumer gaming GPU products, and was marketed, from nVidia directly, as a gaming card...someone else made the same argument about it not being a gaming card, but I was able to post a screenshot of the original nVidia prouct page of the first Titan showing that is was 100% for deep-pocketed gamer/consumer segment.

...I can't seem to access the product page, only the specs of the original Titan, when I head out to nVidia's website.
I am not sure which Titans you think were not good for the prosumer market? I am also not arguing that it is not a gaming card, nor that their marketing didn't target that. But the actual card is built more for a prosumer level. If they just advertised it as a prosumer card, they wouldn't have gotten as many sales, especially since it lacks a number of things from the Quadros or Teslas. But advertising as a gaming card they were able to boost sales significantly.

Titan - First great entry
Titan Black - double floating point precision, even better
Titan Z - Dual GPU
Titan X - Big performance bgost back with double floating point precision
Titan Xp - Maxwell, another performance increase, but not worth it since the XP came out right after
Titan XP - Great card all around

For a few projects I worked on, we did a lot of behavioral simulation and used both C++ and CUDA. We were originally using K40s and K80s for the project, but soon ended up switching over to Titan cards. The Titan cards were far cheaper and worked extremely well for the workloads we needed. We appreciate the double precision which helped with the projects that required exact simulation, while the behavioral simulations didn't care. We still preferred the Teslas for more exact simulations though.
 

DejaWiz

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I am not sure which Titans you think were not good for the prosumer market? I am also not arguing that it is not a gaming card, nor that their marketing didn't target that. But the actual card is built more for a prosumer level. If they just advertised it as a prosumer card, they wouldn't have gotten as many sales, especially since it lacks a number of things from the Quadros or Teslas. But advertising as a gaming card they were able to boost sales significantly.

Titan - First great entry
Titan Black - double floating point precision, even better
Titan Z - Dual GPU
Titan X - Big performance bgost back with double floating point precision
Titan Xp - Maxwell, another performance increase, but not worth it since the XP came out right after
Titan XP - Great card all around

For a few projects I worked on, we did a lot of behavioral simulation and used both C++ and CUDA. We were originally using K40s and K80s for the project, but soon ended up switching over to Titan cards. The Titan cards were far cheaper and worked extremely well for the workloads we needed. We appreciate the double precision which helped with the projects that required exact simulation, while the behavioral simulations didn't care. We still preferred the Teslas for more exact simulations though.
I never said they weren't good for the "prosumer" market...I said they were never specifically marketed towards the "prosumer" (read: business/enterprise segments). They were always marketed as gaming GPUs.
 

NoOther

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I never said they weren't good for the "prosumer" market...I said they were never specifically marketed towards the "prosumer" (read: business/enterprise segments). They were always marketed as gaming GPUs.
You were making the point that Nvidia was pricing themselves out of the market, mostly by intimating it was a gaming card and used for epeen. However, much of the success of Titan came from sales in the prosumer market where the price was a huge discount from the professional cards. Marketing is not the only thing that makes something valuable or successful. It also doesn't determine what that thing must be used for. I don't know why you keep wanting to argue about the marketing of the card, like somehow that changes how it is used or what it is worth?
 

Slade

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The price of this card is much more affordable to the ML crowd. A Volta card will run you 10K USD right now, getting something that does ML at this level for 1/4 the cost is good. The fact you can game on it is a bonus, but its not a gaming card.
 

DejaWiz

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You were making the point that Nvidia was pricing themselves out of the market, mostly by intimating it was a gaming card and used for epeen. However, much of the success of Titan came from sales in the prosumer market where the price was a huge discount from the professional cards. Marketing is not the only thing that makes something valuable or successful. It also doesn't determine what that thing must be used for. I don't know why you keep wanting to argue about the marketing of the card, like somehow that changes how it is used or what it is worth?
I'm all well aware of that.

I was basing my comments from MERELY the perspective of how nVidia specifically marketed their products:

GTX and Titan = gaming
Quadro = business and Enterprise

I couldn't give any less fucks about WHO bought them and HOW those buyers used them, regardless of nVidia's targeted marketing demographic.

What I do care about, is nVidia (as do most of us) knows that a majority of Titans sporting strong FP64 capability were bought by business-use buyers to circumvent the much higher priced Quadro lineup, and now nVidia needs to make up their mind as to which group the Titan is actually intended for: epeenor gamers, or "prosumer" business?

$2500 is a mid to mid-upper range Quadro price tag. However, that price is certainly far above the grasp of almost every consumer buyer out there, so why steer the Titan (previously marketed as a halo tier gaming card) from the consumer lineup to the business lineup, instead of just calling the fucking thing a Quadro?

The very first sentence in my very first comment to this thread sums it all up.
 

NoOther

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I'm all well aware of that.

I was basing my comments from MERELY the perspective of how nVidia specifically marketed their products:

GTX and Titan = gaming
Quadro = business and Enterprise

I couldn't give any less fucks about WHO bought them and HOW those buyers used them, regardless of nVidia's targeted marketing demographic.

What I do care about, is nVidia (as do most of us) knows that a majority of Titans sporting strong FP64 capability were bought by business-use buyers to circumvent the much higher priced Quadro lineup, and now nVidia needs to make up their mind as to which group the Titan is actually intended for: epeenor gamers, or "prosumer" business?

$2500 is a mid to mid-upper range Quadro price tag. However, that price is certainly far above the grasp of almost every consumer buyer out there, so why steer the Titan (previously marketed as a halo tier gaming card) from the consumer lineup to the business lineup, instead of just calling the fucking thing a Quadro?

The very first sentence in my very first comment to this thread sums it all up.
To be clear, I think a lot of people were buying the Titans instead of the Tesla lineup. That is what our project and many others I had talked to were doing. Many small companies have been using regular geforce cards instead of Quadro cards for years.

As for Nvidia need to make up their mind, why? If the cards are selling and Titan continues to be a success, what does it matter? Again, you are putting this all on marketing, but the marketing is geared towards expanding the sale capacity. If they didn't target it for gamers, they wouldn't get as much coverage. People in the professional and prosumer market are automatically going to check out any card that they feel will give them a cost benefit. But by marketing it for gamers they achieve a broader base. Plus by marketing it as a gaming card, they shed the responsibility of professional support which saves them a lot more money. Also, not every professional or prosumer application needs the professional support, so they also save money on it. So in the end, why does nvidia need to shift anything? If they are providing a product that answers a few markets and still sells well, then obviously they are doing something right.
 

Armenius

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I am not sure which Titans you think were not good for the prosumer market? I am also not arguing that it is not a gaming card, nor that their marketing didn't target that. But the actual card is built more for a prosumer level. If they just advertised it as a prosumer card, they wouldn't have gotten as many sales, especially since it lacks a number of things from the Quadros or Teslas. But advertising as a gaming card they were able to boost sales significantly.

Titan - First great entry
Titan Black - double floating point precision, even better
Titan Z - Dual GPU
Titan X - Big performance bgost back with double floating point precision
Titan Xp - Maxwell, another performance increase, but not worth it since the XP came out right after
Titan XP - Great card all around

For a few projects I worked on, we did a lot of behavioral simulation and used both C++ and CUDA. We were originally using K40s and K80s for the project, but soon ended up switching over to Titan cards. The Titan cards were far cheaper and worked extremely well for the workloads we needed. We appreciate the double precision which helped with the projects that required exact simulation, while the behavioral simulations didn't care. We still preferred the Teslas for more exact simulations though.
You got your cards messed up there, skippy.

GTX Titan (Kepler)
GTX Titan Black (Kepler)
GTX Titan Z (Kepler)
GTX Titan X (Maxwell)
Titan X (Pascal)
Titan Xp (Pascal, last one to use GeForce branding)
 

DejaWiz

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To be clear, I think a lot of people were buying the Titans instead of the Tesla lineup. That is what our project and many others I had talked to were doing. Many small companies have been using regular geforce cards instead of Quadro cards for years.

As for Nvidia need to make up their mind, why? If the cards are selling and Titan continues to be a success, what does it matter? Again, you are putting this all on marketing, but the marketing is geared towards expanding the sale capacity. If they didn't target it for gamers, they wouldn't get as much coverage. People in the professional and prosumer market are automatically going to check out any card that they feel will give them a cost benefit. But by marketing it for gamers they achieve a broader base. Plus by marketing it as a gaming card, they shed the responsibility of professional support which saves them a lot more money. Also, not every professional or prosumer application needs the professional support, so they also save money on it. So in the end, why does nvidia need to shift anything? If they are providing a product that answers a few markets and still sells well, then obviously they are doing something right.
My point is that pricing a Titan, historically marketed towards gamers, at $2500 is idiotic. That price realm is for business buyers, and nVidia's business lineup has, historically, been named Quadro in order to keep clear separation of their different product segments.

With the GPP fiasco so that nVidia could take control of naming conventions of their products sold by their AIBs, they can't even seem to take control of their own naming conventions...
Are they stupid, or are they hypocrites? Perhaps a bit of both, lately?

Alas, it is merely a point I am trying to express based on my own opinion. I don't expect anyone else's opinion to be the same as mine.

I'm just here to engage in conversation over some hot coffee while a handful of laptops are being imaged.
 
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NoOther

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My point is that pricing a Titan, historically marketed towards gamers, at $2500 is idiotic. That price realm is for business buyers, and nVidia's business lineup has, historically, been named Quadro in order to keep clear separation of their different product segments.

Alas, it is merely a point I am trying to express based on my own opinion. I don't expect anyone else's opinion to be the same as mine.

I'm just here to engage in conversation over some hot coffee while a handful of laptops are being imaged.
But it isn't idiotic. They will still get people buying it as an "ultimate gaming card" simply because they want the best, fastest card. They will also still get people buying it for prosumer needs. If they didn't market it for gamers, they would most likely only get some prosumer sales and no gamer sales. Why limit themselves to only the prosumer market when they can still get money from people buying it for gaming?

In addition, if they market it to the prosumer market, then they would fall into the trap where people would expect professional support. That would muddy the waters even more.

So in reality, they are marketing it in the best possible way from a business perspective. The market will end up determining the value. If they don't sell enough at that price point, then they can shift their pricing.
 

DejaWiz

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But it isn't idiotic. They will still get people buying it as an "ultimate gaming card" simply because they want the best, fastest card. They will also still get people buying it for prosumer needs. If they didn't market it for gamers, they would most likely only get some prosumer sales and no gamer sales. Why limit themselves to only the prosumer market when they can still get money from people buying it for gaming?

In addition, if they market it to the prosumer market, then they would fall into the trap where people would expect professional support. That would muddy the waters even more.

So in reality, they are marketing it in the best possible way from a business perspective. The market will end up determining the value. If they don't sell enough at that price point, then they can shift their pricing.
Again, my opinion tells me that it IS idiotic. You are free to disagree.

I can go buy just about any Maxwell, Pascal, or now Turing based Quadro/Tesla card and game on it, but what is the point, when the much cheaper (and usually faster performing in OGL/DX gaming) GTX/RTX series exists?

...just like any business can buy a consumer gaming card and run programs created for the professional environment on it. With a minimum amount of elbow grit, a savvy business segment buyer will compare the specs of consumer GPUs to their business counterparts and determine that it makes more sense to save a shitload of money to go with the consumer card, as long as it meets a subjective set of criteria for application performance...which is, coincidently, why nVidia crippled the FP64 performance on follow-up Titan products after the first gen, so that these buyers would be forced into the higher price brackets of the Quadro cards offering the FP64 performance that they desired.

How many John or Jane Doe consumers do you think can do the same kind of comparing, then decide that spending exponentially MORE on a business segment card would be a better choice for typical home use and/or gaming? Hell, how many John or Jane Doe consumers do you know that even give a fuck about FP64?
Not many, I'd venture to guess, on either count...

Hence, why the naming conventions of GTX (now RTX) and Titan marketed for gamers while Quadro/Tesla marketed for business simplifies the product portfolio.

There will always be crossover buyers (consumers buying from the business segment, and businesses buying from the consumer segment) anyway, as there always has been, so why does nVidia feel compelled to shift the marketing of Titan from a gaming product to a one-size-fits-all-as-long-as-you-have-enough-money-to-satisfy-the-idiotic-price-tag-if-you-are-buying-this-as-a-gaming-card crossover product?

Feels like the Titan name went from "look at the size of my balls gaming card" with a 15-25% price premium over the best Ti to a "bottom-tier business product that's really a gaming card but you should still pay business prices if you're a gamer" with a 100+% price premium over the best Ti...
 
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Formula.350

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Don't their certified drivers state otherwise?
This was announced at NeurIPS. A Machine Learning/ Deep Learning conference. The target is the ML/DL community. It's not for gamers.
I honestly don't know what market nVidia is exactly targeting anymore with the Titan, on account of this:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/AMP/2018/01/03/nvidia_server_gpus/

This makes me think a few things...
1) They've released this to cater to the idiots who have more money than sense, but couldn't get onboard with buying the Quadro because the drivers (I assume) aren't going to be that gaming-oriented, and had no use for all the other abilities of the card.

2) The reason it's so cheap is because they're not providing all the driver bonuses that the Quadro variant will have, nor will they provide actual customer support to Titan owners trying to do things that the Telsa or Quadro lines are tailored to. If true that seems to somewhat contradict the above link's statement IMO. Would relegate the Titan back to a Gaming card, with extra capabilities that you can utilize.... so long as you don't expect guarantees on performance/software support.

3) These are (were) Quadros, but their chips are not able to pass QC and in the end are faulty cards. (at least in very specific circumstances)
OR perhaps these were full blown, QC-passing, Quadro cards that are suspected as being part of the "Test Escapes" problem and instead of worry about pissing off big-name corporations running Quadros and their workstations crashing (or worse), losing lots of work and time.... They sat down to try and figure out how to cut their losses but make money... Enter the Titan RTX... Now they'll be sold to people who nV doesn't care about, being used for simply gaming or things they aren't "authorized" to use the cards for, meaning nV is blame-less for anything that happens to your work if the card croaks. Sure, they'll RMA it still, but beyond that you're taking responsibility for anything else ;) And/Or perhaps they are going to use Micron memory as well, in order to depleat whatever agreement of guaranteed-orders for stock they made with Micron. (Not saying the Micron RAM is the cause of any issue, but just going off of the speculation of it being)



As it was said, you'd think that they'd first get the issues with the RTX 2000 line sorted out, and announce that all is well in that so that people have nothing to worry about... THEN release the Titan as confirmation all is well.
So to me, the timing of this seems strange and smells vaguely like fish.

[/tinfoil hat]

Am I on to something, or just on something?
 

DejaWiz

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Price debate aside, does anyone have any benches for this toaster?
Only preliminary, based on conjecture.

InventingTheToaster.png




All kidding aside, I'm curious for real-world gaming results/benchmarks, as well.
 

NoOther

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Again, my opinion tells me that it IS idiotic. You are free to disagree.

I can go buy just about any Maxwell, Pascal, or now Turing based Quadro/Tesla card and game on it, but what is the point, when the much cheaper (and usually faster performing in OGL/DX gaming) GTX/RTX series exists?
In reality what you are arguing is that Nvidia market it different to keep idiots from paying $2500 for a gaming card. Why? If people want to shell out that money, let them.

As for crossover buyers, people buying cards for gaming are not likely to ever look at Quadro cards. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. The Titan is still a very good gaming card and there are still reasons people from the gaming segment would buy one over a 1080 Ti or a 2080. In addition, you pick up people who want to play games and also want to do CUDA hobbies and projects. It also makes a lot of sense for those buyers and marketing it as gaming works.

And, again, there is extra support that comes with their professional cards. That support comes with a price. The Titan does NOT come with that support. So they have marketed it correctly. To market it as a professional card, they would have to add more cost to it to cover the extra support, that is how their business model is set up. At that point, it is no longer in a viable price point. In addition, the Titan card works well as a gaming card and serves some function in that market.

So there is very little reason to market the Titan as a business grade card and many reasons to market it as a gaming card. The only thing "muddying" the waters is the price point. And I actually don't think the price point is really muddying the waters at all. Market determines price. If gamers don't wish to shell out the $2500 for the card, then Nvidia may rethink the price. But as long as it is still successful, especially as a cheaper prosumer option, I don't see them changing, nor any real reason why they should.

So in reality the only thing changing the marketing helps is to keep gamers from hurting themselves from spending too much money. That is really on the consumer, not the company.
 

NoOther

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As it was said, you'd think that they'd first get the issues with the RTX 2000 line sorted out, and announce that all is well in that so that people have nothing to worry about... THEN release the Titan as confirmation all is well.
So to me, the timing of this seems strange and smells vaguely like fish.

[/tinfoil hat]

Am I on to something, or just on something?
Probably a combination of both. I agree the timing is suspect. It seems too much like the X (Pascal) release.
 

DejaWiz

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In reality what you are arguing is that Nvidia market it different to keep idiots from paying $2500 for a gaming card. Why? If people want to shell out that money, let them.

As for crossover buyers, people buying cards for gaming are not likely to ever look at Quadro cards. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. The Titan is still a very good gaming card and there are still reasons people from the gaming segment would buy one over a 1080 Ti or a 2080. In addition, you pick up people who want to play games and also want to do CUDA hobbies and projects. It also makes a lot of sense for those buyers and marketing it as gaming works.

And, again, there is extra support that comes with their professional cards. That support comes with a price. The Titan does NOT come with that support. So they have marketed it correctly. To market it as a professional card, they would have to add more cost to it to cover the extra support, that is how their business model is set up. At that point, it is no longer in a viable price point. In addition, the Titan card works well as a gaming card and serves some function in that market.

So there is very little reason to market the Titan as a business grade card and many reasons to market it as a gaming card. The only thing "muddying" the waters is the price point. And I actually don't think the price point is really muddying the waters at all. Market determines price. If gamers don't wish to shell out the $2500 for the card, then Nvidia may rethink the price. But as long as it is still successful, especially as a cheaper prosumer option, I don't see them changing, nor any real reason why they should.

So in reality the only thing changing the marketing helps is to keep gamers from hurting themselves from spending too much money. That is really on the consumer, not the company.

Except it is being marketed to business buyers:


TitanBusiness1.png


TitanBusiness4.png
 
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NoOther

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Except it is being marketed to business buyers:


View attachment 124893

View attachment 124894
Wait, you argued before it was being marketed as gaming, now you are arguing it is being marketed as business. So which is it? Seems like in that picture they are changing marketing to fit what you are complaining about. So I don't get what your point is?

In reality it is being sold as a consumer gaming card, that is its branding. As such, it doesn't get the benefit of the professional support. Notice in that same picture is the Titan XP, which also was branded and marketed as a gaming GPU.

So explain to me what magical marketing or branding you would use to maximize sales?
 

DejaWiz

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Wait, you argued before it was being marketed as gaming, now you are arguing it is being marketed as business. So which is it? Seems like in that picture they are changing marketing to fit what you are complaining about. So I don't get what your point is?

In reality it is being sold as a consumer gaming card, that is its branding. As such, it doesn't get the benefit of the professional support. Notice in that same picture is the Titan XP, which also was branded and marketed as a gaming GPU.

So explain to me what magical marketing or branding you would use to maximize sales?
Bro, do you even comprehend?

I said the Titan name was originally marketed as a gaming card (Jensen has even came out on stage to present a Titan as a gaming card), but now it's marketed as a business card, hence why I said to go back and read the very first sentence of my very first post in this thread.
 

dgz

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Not surprised in the least but it sure is funny. Milking and milking...
 

NoOther

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Bro, do you even comprehend?

I said the Titan name was originally marketed as a gaming card (Jensen has even came out on stage to present a Titan as a gaming card), but now it's marketed as a business card, hence why I said to go back and read the very first sentence of my very first post in this thread.
:rolleyes: Then show me the quote of your "first post" that mentions it was "marketed for business". Your first quote said it was overpriced for the gaming market. You said it used to be considered the gaming king. You never once mentioned anything about it being marketed as a business card. And all of your posts followed that same line of reasoning... So how is my comprehension off base? Because I can't read your mind?

For reference, the "very first sentence of your very first post":

nVidia needs to make up their mind...

Titan used to be the crowned king gaming GPU of their lineup, with a price tag that kept this single PC component out of the hands of everyone except for the well-to-do that felt the need to stretch their epeens.
Please show me where you said it was being marketed as a business or professional card?

Also for reference all the Titan cards have been referenced under the CUDA platform. So I am confused where you believe the shift happened, or what you think has changed? As development on GPUs becomes ever more popular, doesn't it make sense to list the viable products for those platforms?

I am just confused what you are confused about, or what you are actually trying to argue here?

Again, I also what magical marketing/branding should Nvidia do?
 
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viivo

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"The introduction of T-Rex puts Turing within reach of millions of the most demanding PC users - developers, scientists and content creators."
I once imported a couple of textures to use in Skyrim, so I'm definitely a content creator that, when combined with also being a gamer, makes me a unique snowflake. I need one of these GPUs to continue modding and playing 10 year old games.
 

DejaWiz

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:rolleyes: Then show me the quote of your "first post" that mentions it was "marketed for business". Your first quote said it was overpriced for the gaming market. You said it used to be considered the gaming king. You never once mentioned anything about it being marketed as a business card. And all of your posts followed that same line of reasoning... So how is my comprehension off base? Because I can't read your mind?

For reference, the "very first sentence of your very first post":



Please show me where you said it was being marketed as a business or professional card?

Also for reference all the Titan cards have been referenced under the CUDA platform. So I am confused where you believe the shift happened, or what you think has changed? As development on GPUs becomes ever more popular, doesn't it make sense to list the viable products for those platforms?

I am just confused what you are confused about, or what you are actually trying to argue here?

Again, I also what magical marketing/branding should Nvidia do?
First SENTENCE of my first post. It consists of seven words followed by an ellipsis.

My entire point, this entire time, has been about nVidia originally creating and marketing the very first Titan (and some subsequent follow-ups) as gaming cards. However, they have clearly shifted the Titan to their business segment offerings in their product portfolio, while maintaining a vague stance that gamers should also buy it, price be even more damned than it was in past iterations...so why not just call it a QUADRO, since Titan was originally for the gaming segment?
 

NoOther

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First SENTENCE of my first post. It consists of seven words followed by an ellipsis.

My entire point, this entire time, has been about nVidia originally creating and marketing the very first Titan (and some subsequent follow-ups) as gaming cards. However, they have clearly shifted the Titan to their business segment offerings in their product portfolio, while maintaining a vague stance that gamers should also buy it, price be even more damned than it was in past iterations...so why not just call it a QUADRO, since Titan was originally for the gaming segment?
First, again, in your first post you never mentioned it being marketed for business or professional. An ellipsis does not equate to a statement. Saying nvidia needs to make up their mind with an ellipsis does not really say anything. Your next sentence talks about it being the king of the gaming market. You then go on to say its an outrageous price for a gaming card. All of this would lead one to believe you are arguing their marketing for gaming and the pricing is out of line... You continue to further this argument as people point out that the pricing is great for those using them as prosumer cards. So if your point is they are shifting the marketing and that makes no sense, you should talk strictly to that rather than muddying your message....

Also, Quadro comes with professional support, the Titan cards do not. If they market it as a Quadro, they now have to provide professional support. This has been mentioned numerous times. This is one of the main reasons Quadro cards are so expensive. So why wo9uld they market a prosumer card as a business card that they now have to provide extra support for?
 
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