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Interest in Seasonic modular, fanless/semi-fanless SFX PSU? are you buying NCASE y/n?
- Thread starter IanM
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Why you talking like you're teaching me something? You're not. I used it as a max load test, to find out what, if any, headroom I have left from the PSU.
Voted to get only a high end SFX psu.
Here are my thoughts!
Have a 550W platinum SFX PSU with a pricing ~$150 tops which is fully modular and is sleeving friendly. I mean this as the Silverstone STX 450 gold PSU has a horrid pin layout when it comes to sleeving! The wires crisscross and some even overlap.
I plan on sleeeving the Seasonic SFX PSU (should it be released) via aftermarket connectors found on most PC mod/DIY shops.
low noise fan to dissipate the heat but fanless won't be a good option. If anyone else is curious - I'm gunning for a compact splash case instead of the M1. Thus why I think that the fanless design isn't welcome on most cases.
Wisk - nice seeing you here too!
Here are my thoughts!
Have a 550W platinum SFX PSU with a pricing ~$150 tops which is fully modular and is sleeving friendly. I mean this as the Silverstone STX 450 gold PSU has a horrid pin layout when it comes to sleeving! The wires crisscross and some even overlap.
I plan on sleeeving the Seasonic SFX PSU (should it be released) via aftermarket connectors found on most PC mod/DIY shops.
low noise fan to dissipate the heat but fanless won't be a good option. If anyone else is curious - I'm gunning for a compact splash case instead of the M1. Thus why I think that the fanless design isn't welcome on most cases.
Wisk - nice seeing you here too!
Wisk - nice seeing you here too!
Oh hi
That's great, but let's be realistic. OP and many people seem to think Seasonic will magically make such a PSU as you describe. But why would they? Let's look at who did anything significant for SFX form factor in the last seven years:
Seasonic 350W, released in 2006
FSP 300W, commisioned by Silverstone in 2008 to be used in SG05
FSP 350W, commisioned by BeQuiet in 2009
FSP 450W, commissioned by Silverstone in 2010 to be used in upgraded SG05
ST45SF-G, developed by Silverstone for FT03-mini, fabricated by Enhance
Maybe since mini-ITX form factor became popular over the last year people think there is a market for SFX power supplies, but actually most small cases can use ATX, and only Silverstone cases needs SFX. Even the M1 which is mentioned can use an ATX PSU.
It's clearly not the large market than some of us might think it is. And people seem to also underestimate the technical challenge, as if it should be easy to make PSU in half the size without some compromises.
I realized that the moment my vote was cast - I represent 25% of the people polling here - so we are by far the smallest niche IMHO. Intel are focusing their efforts on shrinking things down for the mobility market and by that its just rumor about having smaller form factors come into light. I do agree however that this recent boom will come and go as all the other hypes seen throughout the decade. But options for a SFX are pretty crippling to say the least.
But Intel makes electronics. Since 1971 chips are doubling transitors in same space every 18 months. Yet there is no similar extreme exponential progress in the components used in PSUs.
I own your 450W modular SFX supply, but I would buy another quality SFX if it were 500W+.
Overclocked CPU and overclocked GPU is pushing 450W. I've ran OCCT and Furmark w/ a 2500K @ 4.5GHz and either my 7950 or Titan, and it was pushing over that on the AC side. I know it's less on the DC side, but it's still pushing it. Will feel safer with a little more power available. Not that I ever stress my CPU and GPU to max in real life situation.
Like WiSK, I also replaced the fan in the ST45SF-G with the Noiseblocker PC-P 80x15, and it makes a huge difference! No more hairdryer sounds
lol what.
You're not only saying that 450W is enough, but also, that you can't even get close to 450W in REAL-WORLD use. Where is the practicality in this? It must be like this ocd mental warm fuzzy feeling that people must get when they know they have another 200W to spare? What's the point in the spare? Are you really expanding that ITX rig, by that much? This would only mean that when you're idle, you'd be less efficient as the optimal curve would be higher up due to the higher capacity PSU.
Sorry about the rant, but I just think it's silly. There's always going to be someone saying, oh 500W MINIMUM. Then we'll have 500W, and someone else will say, nope, 600W MINIMUM. Yet all the while components becoming more efficient and lower power. This is exacerbated by the fact that we're talking SFX and ITX builds. ITX, where your typical case, read: TYPICAL, doesn't fit many drives or multiple cards, or, get this, most people don't buy the absolute most power hungry cpu and graphics card. Crazy right? I myself am loving the fact that SFX can now power anything you can fit in an ITX case. Getting back on topic, would love seasonic to have a stronger presence in SFX, their stuff is the best. I want to see TFX grow, seeing as Seasonic makes some great 350W semi-passive? PSU, and GOLD! Considering 350W is enough for my practical builds, I want that efficient use of space to carry over to case designs.
Edit;
I agree with some of what's posted above, we are a niche and manufacturers don't have a big reason to cater to us. I have to think some of this is due to people still thinking we need 1000W and then trying to get that in SFX. If people realize that 99% of them don't use over 350W, then there would be a market for smaller cases, smarter, more efficient designs. As long as people think they need 600W Minimum, then even a 450W TFX Gold, semi-passive, and costing a little more, would sound like a retarded trade-off to your average pc builder who doesn't really think they can go with a nice, simpler, smaller case a la NCase. Lastly, costs would naturally go down if it weren't such a niche.
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Running your PSU at max load, under stressful conditions isn't good. You generate more heat, and with more heat usually is less tighter control of voltage regulation. Having some buffer to the max limit is ideal, and modern PSU's are pretty efficient under the whole ranges of loads. And the purpose might not be for real world use, it is for max limits... to know there won't be a huge failure under the most extreme conditions, even if rare or never hit. A perfect analogy would be a car, it's max speed, and the state speed limit. If your state speed limit is 70mph, and your car can blow up at 80mph, then that's okay by your logic, because under normal use (not breaking the law) I should never be over 70mph. You can have the car that blows up at 80mph, i'll take the one that does 180
You're acting as if we, or I'm, demanding this. No need to rant about it, if you don't agree with it, cast your vote and move along. SFX gaming rigs aren't your typical computers, and they are becoming more popular. You can build an ITX HTPC the size of a cigar box, and it might not need more than 50watts, and that isn't your typical computer either. While neither system is typical, they both do different things, and neither would be possible if someone didn't make parts for a non-typical machine
I think all those 1000W+ PSU's are kinda crazy myself, but I wasn't asking for 1000W, 500W and I'd be happy. Computer enthusiasts are a niche group too, SFX is just a smaller portion of that. Most of the money is in OEM sales. As enthusiasts we have no power to demand anything, we can ask, and possibly get noticed. That's what this thread is about.
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I'm not denying any of that. I'm only asking for more realistic lines if anything. Like why design around furmark, when no game pushes a gpu that far? Furthermore, how often will be under "intense" conditions? Considering computers at any given time are mostly idle. So during most of the time, you have a huge buffer. The PSU will be fine being "pushed" for only a small portion of it's time (again, in the quoted example, he couldn't even push 450W and he had everything OC'ed). I don't deny the valid points, it's where people come down and draw their lines where I find it interesting to say the least lol.
Oh and to play off your car analogy. That would be comparable if you drove your car at 70mph 10% of the time, and your engine couldn't possibly even go faster, even if you had jet fuel powering it lol. Then that analogy makes sense to me. Oh and a quality PSU is under-rated.
Oh and to play off your car analogy. That would be comparable if you drove your car at 70mph 10% of the time, and your engine couldn't possibly even go faster, even if you had jet fuel powering it lol. Then that analogy makes sense to me. Oh and a quality PSU is under-rated.
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Hi guys, I apologize if my responses here have elicited out of topic discussions, but there seems to still be some misconceptions about SilverStone and product development that Id like to share:
PSU reviews here at [H] are great, and the reason we are not getting Gold awards now is partly due to our conservative warranty length. In some ways, Paul and Kyle are pushing us to give longer warranty by capping us at Silver unless we increase from the standard three years we have on the models tested.
We have sold internal PSUs with only DC board in cases like our super-slim LC19 or the older Mini-ITX cases such as LC09. If we go up to the 300W range on the platform, it would be as large in terms of footprint as an SFX PSU.
You are right, we put PSU longevity over ultimate low noise. We would love to run the fan as slow as possible of course, but only if it doesn't raise the standard we set for critical component temperatures. This takes a lot of testing and certification, so changing fans is not as simple as looking for one with similar airflow rating and lower noise because every fan's airflow and pressure pattern is different. I know there are users who have successfully swapped fans on their own and ran fine, but these are probably also being run in fairly good conditions (temperature wise). As manufacturers, we have to expect worst case scenario (hotter environments) when certifying on our own.
I agree Seasonic have been doing a great job, but refining an existing product (ATX PSU) to be excellent is not as difficult as creating a new category of product, we have done it before too. However, no one has ever made an SFX PSU as powerful or with full modular cables as we have done. This time last year, our own engineers were saying a product like the ST45SF-G was impossible, but we pressed on anyways. It isn't perfect for everyone of course, but we will certainly improve as many shortcomings as we can when we continue to develop SFX PSUs. Trust me, we are still hard at work since ST45SF-G's release! You guys are a tough crowd to please here, but I think we are up to it. I don't know if anyone noticed it though, the ST45SF-G is nearly flawless when it comes to electrical whine/chirping noise that sometimes plague the older models (and even some Seasonics).
I think you are mistaken if you think we don't build computers inside our case prototypes, we spent months doing exactly that before going to production and we do it much more than most. I don't think it's fair to take FT03, which is also a product that no one has ever done before, as an example of our lack of product development (like with ST45SF-G). Case designs are about compromises, with traditional ATX tower designs, most users tend to agree on what characteristics make the best cases with variables removed such as overall size. With SFF, there are more varieties and opinions on what features and compromises should be made. While one user may prefer to have a case that is easier to assemble and dont mind the size increase, another user may be willing to sacrifice ease of assembly for a design that is as small as possible with great performance when assembled. As we have been building SFF cases continuously since 2005 with the SG01, we have invested a great deal in this area and been doing what you have suggested for years. I dont think there is any other global brand that is as involved in SFF community as SilverStone has because the sales volume may not justify the effort. But I am here because many of us are also SFF enthusiasts and the SFF products we have been releasing in the last few years were heavily influenced by the community. Criticisms and feedbacks are always welcome of course, but please understand there are more compromises for SFF than typical products, and in the case of FT03, a product built from scratch with no other reference, is even more so. The FT03 is not perfect for everyone (does such product exist?), but we have to release the product onto the market at some point during development or we will never hear the feedbacks on it as we do now.
We are quite excited that there are customers getting together to build their own SFF and we want to be involved!
I would urge every PSU brand to focus their effort on SFX for now so we have enough leverage to really push this form factor into the mainstream as opposed to having two new ones splitting up the already niche market. And no, Seasonic's stuff is not the best. They are really good, but we are better at certain things than them.
PSU reviews here at [H] are great, and the reason we are not getting Gold awards now is partly due to our conservative warranty length. In some ways, Paul and Kyle are pushing us to give longer warranty by capping us at Silver unless we increase from the standard three years we have on the models tested.
We have sold internal PSUs with only DC board in cases like our super-slim LC19 or the older Mini-ITX cases such as LC09. If we go up to the 300W range on the platform, it would be as large in terms of footprint as an SFX PSU.
You are right, we put PSU longevity over ultimate low noise. We would love to run the fan as slow as possible of course, but only if it doesn't raise the standard we set for critical component temperatures. This takes a lot of testing and certification, so changing fans is not as simple as looking for one with similar airflow rating and lower noise because every fan's airflow and pressure pattern is different. I know there are users who have successfully swapped fans on their own and ran fine, but these are probably also being run in fairly good conditions (temperature wise). As manufacturers, we have to expect worst case scenario (hotter environments) when certifying on our own.
I agree Seasonic have been doing a great job, but refining an existing product (ATX PSU) to be excellent is not as difficult as creating a new category of product, we have done it before too. However, no one has ever made an SFX PSU as powerful or with full modular cables as we have done. This time last year, our own engineers were saying a product like the ST45SF-G was impossible, but we pressed on anyways. It isn't perfect for everyone of course, but we will certainly improve as many shortcomings as we can when we continue to develop SFX PSUs. Trust me, we are still hard at work since ST45SF-G's release! You guys are a tough crowd to please here, but I think we are up to it. I don't know if anyone noticed it though, the ST45SF-G is nearly flawless when it comes to electrical whine/chirping noise that sometimes plague the older models (and even some Seasonics).
I think you are mistaken if you think we don't build computers inside our case prototypes, we spent months doing exactly that before going to production and we do it much more than most. I don't think it's fair to take FT03, which is also a product that no one has ever done before, as an example of our lack of product development (like with ST45SF-G). Case designs are about compromises, with traditional ATX tower designs, most users tend to agree on what characteristics make the best cases with variables removed such as overall size. With SFF, there are more varieties and opinions on what features and compromises should be made. While one user may prefer to have a case that is easier to assemble and dont mind the size increase, another user may be willing to sacrifice ease of assembly for a design that is as small as possible with great performance when assembled. As we have been building SFF cases continuously since 2005 with the SG01, we have invested a great deal in this area and been doing what you have suggested for years. I dont think there is any other global brand that is as involved in SFF community as SilverStone has because the sales volume may not justify the effort. But I am here because many of us are also SFF enthusiasts and the SFF products we have been releasing in the last few years were heavily influenced by the community. Criticisms and feedbacks are always welcome of course, but please understand there are more compromises for SFF than typical products, and in the case of FT03, a product built from scratch with no other reference, is even more so. The FT03 is not perfect for everyone (does such product exist?), but we have to release the product onto the market at some point during development or we will never hear the feedbacks on it as we do now.
We are quite excited that there are customers getting together to build their own SFF and we want to be involved!
I would urge every PSU brand to focus their effort on SFX for now so we have enough leverage to really push this form factor into the mainstream as opposed to having two new ones splitting up the already niche market. And no, Seasonic's stuff is not the best. They are really good, but we are better at certain things than them.
I'm not gonna bother posting the long reply I just wrote. cause this will just go back and forth.
I'll just say your analogy makes no sense, since it shouldn't matter what the percent is, if all it took was one time exceeding it to blow up. And I'm not saying that would happen with a PSU, because there are fail safes: OCP, that hopefully work correctly.
I'll just say your analogy makes no sense, since it shouldn't matter what the percent is, if all it took was one time exceeding it to blow up. And I'm not saying that would happen with a PSU, because there are fail safes: OCP, that hopefully work correctly.
Thanks for your responses Tony. Always great to see that our feedback, whether positive or harsh, is understood by a company.
Warranty is 3 years, but the ST45SF-G is rated for 100,000 hours at 25°C, full load. That's 11 years for me since I am running mine 24/7. Why so large difference? Why not put the rating as expected lifetime when running the unit at 45C ambient, closer to your "worst case scenario"?
Is the warranty an engineering estimate, i.e. calculation based on expected lifetime of components where someone runs it inside a hot case, in a hot dusty room, never cleans it and runs at max load? Or is the length of warranty just a financial calculation based on age of previous products returned to you under warranty.
Machupo
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Thanks, Tony, for taking the time to write out your responses -- it is great to have someone from a major player in the industry with whom to discuss the art of SFF.
I'll be posting my temp data in my build thread once I get the tiny case buttoned up... I imagine that the ambient (referring to PSU intake) temperature is going to rise significantly over the test bench setup. It will be interesting to see how the ST45SF-G handles it
I'll be posting my temp data in my build thread once I get the tiny case buttoned up... I imagine that the ambient (referring to PSU intake) temperature is going to rise significantly over the test bench setup. It will be interesting to see how the ST45SF-G handles it
There's no sinister anti Silverstone agenda behind how I set up the poll, but of course there are reasons why I set it up the way I did. I didn't speak on this before because I wanted to let the thread take it's own course and see what other people think without me influencing the thread too much.
I wanted the poll to be simple, but it had to be more than just asking do you want a better SFX PSU. I wasn't entirely happy with the poll as is, I was trying to convey many options in as few words as possible, hoping that some indirectly stated question would be answered as well. It was obvious to put Ncase on the poll as a reference enthusiast product to measure against, it's so prominent and popular with the active members of this sub-forum. I know the poll is flawed, but I hope there is something of value. Only statisticians who work in marketing can say if the poll really does say anything useful.
I think the poll had to be Seasonic. There is no doubt in my mind that Seasonic is the brand associated with top quality PSUs. Whether the reputation is unfair to other brands is irrelevant. Other brands may be capable of excellent and even higher quality than Seasonic, but if I'd said Super Flower? A lot of people would ask who they are and vote not interested.
Silverstone would've been my last choice for this poll as I believe it would've rendered the poll useless for one the key questions. It's not a question of quality or brand loyalty, it was about getting a sense of the appetite for premium, enthusiast class SFX PSUs beyond what is available. Silverstone are already strongly supporting the format and don't need to be convinced of anything here, a couple of other brands support SFX only very half-heartedly. Why do other major brands ignore it? Obviously they don't see a profitable market, but is their thinking archaic and wrong, or is the market potential genuinely too small and weak to support the products we really want? If the thinking is outdated and there is more demand for SFX than anyone thought, can any of these other brands be persuaded to reconsider.
It's probably a very good 80×80×15mm fan, but I doubt it's the absolute best available, and Noiseblocker now have their 'Blacknoise' website up and running. Industrial fans and custom spec services are offered: http://www.blacknoise.com/en/site/page/products EDIT: for Silverstone and other makers of new SFX PSUs there are better options:
Small fan with low mass, RPM range starts at 600? I say no thanks, it's definitely possible to have min rotation speed at 300rpm (Noctua & Scythe.) Maybe it's possible to go even lower if that's set as one of the requirements?
92mm fans might be option for SFX e.g. a version of Noctua NF-A9x14 http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=49&lng=en&set=1
Although I think an extra long SFX would be difficult to market widely a small increase would perhaps enable a 100mm fan to fit, but they key question is how many cases would be eliminated from the potential market? e.g. a number of Lian Li cases put the drive bays in closely in front of the PSU.
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Why not just email Seasonic directly and ask what it would take for them to return to SFX format after 7 years absence?
I'm not concerned about finding any theoretical best, or shoehorning something too big in. I just want my computer quieter. So compare this fan with the stock fan: similar electrical profile, similar pressure and airflow, but much less noise at idle. What purpose does it serve to suggest I bought the wrong thing? Think practical, if you have a better idea: go get it and try it yourself.
So now I own a gold modular 450W SFX PSU which has been running 24/7 at ~280W for the last 8 weeks. I don't have a valid warranty anymore, but it's whisper quiet. It's not made by Seasonic and I didn't have to make a poll to get it
I certainly don't think Seasonic (or anyone else) will "magically" make anything anyone is asking for in this thread. I wanted the discussion to happen to see what other people want. As for the size of the market I'm making no assumptions, I had hoped Seasonic might answer and say what it would take for them to be interested.
For the marketing and sales I think there is a problem on the buyers side, I just wonder if that's the critical thing holding back the majority of PSU brands...
...I agree, and as SFX is a niche one of the things I hoped to see was some kind of consensus on a power sweetspot that might be satisfactory if all the other noise and efficiency criteria were met.
For my personal use I don't think I would need any more than 375W-400W so I would be willing to compromise peak power for genuine silence and efficiency. Selfishly I was hoping a majority of people would say 400W is plenty as that might make it more attainable. However I can see why a lot of users are going to want 400W-450W and why they wouldn't want less power. We know 450W gold is possible (thanks to Silverstone) so can we have silence at 450W? excellent efficiency on idle and low power loads? I think it's achievable, but the compromise will be higher end price than ST45SF-G.
The surprise for me is the few people wanting 500W-600W or more, I think the unavoidable compromise would have to be higher noise, and perhaps much higher cost as well. To me this is a different product and not something I would want.
Things I would like to know: how much of a cost difference would it make to settle on 425W as a compromise? How many people (particularly beyond the enthusiast forums) are overestimating their power requirement? If it's a lot could a 380W or 400W SFX PSU be sold to enough enthusiasts with the right marketing campaign?
Lian Li are going SFX more often, but other brands are more frequently picking TFX and Flex-ATX for mini-ITX cases. How much of the limited choice in SFX cases is due to historically SFX being associated with µATX?
I see a lot of cases now with TFX 120W, 160W & 200W. I think this is a great choice of power ranges for slim SFF builds with no GPUs to worry about, but what bothers me is all of these PSUs look like low efficiency crap. Part of the same mindset holding back SFX, but I think Tony highlighted something that needs to happen: the market as a whole needs to grow and not just by Silverstone supporting it with good products.
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I already did email them, no reply or even acknowledgement of receipt of my message
I know someone else also emailed them and suggested a number of units, they did get a reply but Seasonic didn't bite. One thing is certain: whatever the number of units it would take to entice Seasonic, it's more than a % of NCASE M1 buyers alone could reach.
Sorry, that absolutely wasn't my intention (I've got some Noiseblockers myself and I think they're excellent)
The reason I added those comments and links was because there was some chatter about Silverstone doing an iteration of PSU with the PC-P. I wanted to highlight that there are likely more suitable 'industrial' options, and even though the PC-P is a great mod the bar can be set even higher for Silverstone on their next SFX PSU(s)
Also the Noctua NF-A9x14 is 92x92x14 mm, so maybe it would fit after drilling new fan mount holes? or there might be other 14-15mm 92mm fans out there with 80mm mounting holes tha would fit.
The Sugo 07 and 08 have "custom" ATX power supplies. They use an atx foot print, IIRC 150x85x140.So it would work with a NCASE M1, but not with dual rads or the hdd cage.
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The 100,000 hours rating is sort of an industry standard that most PSUs were designed to based on component aging calculation. Warranty length, however, is mostly financial for OEMs and marketing for retail brands.
I already did email them, no reply or even acknowledgement of receipt of my message
I know someone else also emailed them and suggested a number of units, they did get a reply but Seasonic didn't bite. One thing is certain: whatever the number of units it would take to entice Seasonic, it's more than a % of NCASE M1 buyers alone could reach.
I think you may have better luck trying to get their OEM customers to commit to SFX, this way they will see much bigger sales potential. I probably shouldn't be revealing this, but Seasonic was one of the companies we inquired about doing SFX last year as well and they weren't interested.
Interesting, Tony. So let me get this straight re "last year". You had the design of the ST45SF-G in progress, and sent the proposal for fabrication to a number of PSU manufacturers of which Seasonic pulled out. Was Enhance then the only one left who was willing, or were you able to choose which manufacturer?
Please remember again that PSU development time averages about 1 full year so we had been working on ST45SF-G with Enhance from way back in 2011 (for retail release in 2012). As to how we begin our ongoing projects with others PSUs and future models, I am afraid I can't elaborate on them.
I personally appreciate how candid Tony's been in this thread. He's gone above and beyond what most hardware folks are willing to talk about, and this kind of insight into the industry is quite enlightening. It feels similar to a video game postmortem panel or something.
Skimming through this thread has made me realize that I shouldn't hold my breath on the SFX PSU market exploding into standard size for PCs.
And also a great participation of Tony and good to know that silverstone has been working on developing the SFX line.
Now we just need a new SG05 to come with the new PSU. Not another grotesquely huge SG09.
And also a great participation of Tony and good to know that silverstone has been working on developing the SFX line.
Now we just need a new SG05 to come with the new PSU. Not another grotesquely huge SG09.
D
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I can't say I agree. Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not attacking Silverstone in any way, as it's safe to assume that the mITX is where it is thanks to them (well, I'm sure they thank us as well for giving our $$$$$). My point being is that just because nobody did a design before isn't a reason not to commit for perfection.
For instance, I think Silverstone has the BEST mATX case there is: the TJ08-E (I'd have one at home, but it wasn't in stock and we couldn't wait so we got a Fractal Arc Mini). Sure, there are compromises about the quantity of HDD's, the fact that everything is cramped and it's cumbersome to tinker with and many other factors... but, provided the size it has, and the usability... its second to none, as all the trade-offs there are have something very positive on the other side that clearly outweighs them. Sure, some people won't like it, but a case quality is not subjective, it doesn't matter if people like it or not (well... of course it does since it has to sell
) : the case design and compromises are all solid, and I'm not sure I'd make many changes in the product (and they'd be very small).Regarding the FT03, as a former owner, I can tell you it isn't up to the task.
-Design: very nice. Perfect.
-Internal space: very nice. Perfect.
-Attention to little details? 0.
(this are my own images)
How is it possible that the hole doesn't line up with the SATA ports? It's kinda obvious since the majority of cases will have the ports just like that... and, also, the hole is not well aligned and, when using angled SATA ports (very very common) you will have to bend the cable to make them fit.
Also, the removable panels are not a good compromise. There isn't a simple way to move the case around withouth being worried about something snapping and have your computer crash on the floor. The filter is also very difficult to remove.
Finally, the HDD's will get cooked inside (mine did), if you have a high-end VGA (I had a GTX295 and, later on, a GTX480). Why? Because they have no airflow and rely on the case to cool them... the problem is that the case gets very warm with power-hungry cards and, thus, the HDD temperature will skyrocket. A partial solution would be to use the bottom Intake fans to impel some air on the HDD's side of the case, so that, at least, you have some sort of airflow. I know the power cable is over there...
To me, when you compare the TJ08-E, and the FT03... it looks like 2 totally different companies. The TJ08-E attention to detail is PERFECT (like the FT02, the TJ07, and so many other excellent products Silverstone has ever released), whereas the FT03 is flawed. That is what I wanted to point out, that a company will be as good as it's lesser good products. For instance, I can say that the SG09 has a sorta well balanced compromises: to me it looks very ugly, but its totally functional. It's a trade-off, because it's something that was chosen in the design stage... on the other hand, the FT03 has no compromises, since those are mistakes, not features purposely chosen.
PS: do you plan to release the SG10? It seemed to me like the beautiful twin brother of the SG09
PSS: my point being is that a compromise is taken when you acknowledge the posibilities and choose one knowing the others. Knowing that a case will be terribly complicated to build a computer into is a compromise if you make it as small as possible... on the other hand, making a psu LOUD at idle seems like a very bad one to me, since we all want silent computer's at idle and, mostly, won't care about loud computers at full load, since most of our parts will also get loud.
@Dephcon: actually, you are wrong. Corsair posted a poll a few months ago on ocn to ask about what people think a mITX design should have. So, yes, they will get into the game
@IanM: to me, there is no need for more than 450W for a mITX case, and it still seems too much. That much power into such a small case will always smell trouble... let alone it's kinda pointless, since you'd have to aim for a OC'd Titan + OC'd cpu and, STILL, it would be hard to push that much power.
The fan isn't loud because it's a bad fan, it's loud because it's spinning fast.
The reason some of us have replaced the fan is not for a significantly better quality, but because the voltage-rpm curve was wider, allowing lower speeds at idle. Therefore quieter at idle.
What a lot of people don't seem to accept is that SFX PSUs are not directly comparable to ATX PSUs. Your usual ATX unit is half-empty, allowing a lot of expulsion of heat just by a light breeze between the capacitors and coils. If you open the ST45SF-G you will see there's not even space to get an extra finger tip between the components. So it needs a fair bit of air going through it just to prevent hotspots.
I fear SFX PSUs die out before we can even get a 500W unit.
worst case: use an atx psu
High Power Tech actually showed a gold rated 500 Watt 'SFX' PSU with an 120mm fan at computex this year
High Power Tech actually showed a gold rated 500 Watt 'SFX' PSU with an 120mm fan at computex this year
I think you mean High Power Electronic Co (originally called SIRFA). Highpower Technology Co makes batteries.
Hi Guys
I have been Reading the thread and agree that the range of sensibly sized psu with a good power rating/eficciency is very limited if you want to build a compact high end pc
Silverstone have the market to themselves and no one is taking up the competition because they dont see any profit in it, so as much as I would like the option of a platimum sfx psu its not going to happen any time son in my opinión. its feasable but the cost would be horrendous
I also feel that the sfx dimensión is not ideal size either, and a better suited size would be 125x125, that way you could use industry standard 120mm fans, the only manufacturer that makes anything close to this is NEXUS, it makes a NX- 5000 v1,a 550 watts which is only 125mm deep.
This size psu allows you to stack the psu under a rad and use the psu fan to push air through a wáter cooling rad, this could allow compact cases to have watercooling, its a clever idea, the first person i have seen use this set up is Miah Allen, I also feel the current design of mini itx cases, would benefit greatly from using a different distribution of the hardware inside the box, someone should come up with case that places the hard drives and slimp optical drive under the motherboard, that gives you far more freedom to provide cooling if you have less components and wiring in the way. A mini itx case with this distribution could house a high end graphic card several 2.5 hd and Slim optical drive, along with wáter cooling and a 240 mm rad, which could cool both cpu and gpu in a box roughly the size of and SG05.
any way my mind is wandering of course,
regards
Joe
The truth is that with each new generation cpu/gpu power requirements are going down therefore in a not too distant future we may be using something like powerfull pico psu equivalent.
I have been Reading the thread and agree that the range of sensibly sized psu with a good power rating/eficciency is very limited if you want to build a compact high end pc
Silverstone have the market to themselves and no one is taking up the competition because they dont see any profit in it, so as much as I would like the option of a platimum sfx psu its not going to happen any time son in my opinión. its feasable but the cost would be horrendous
I also feel that the sfx dimensión is not ideal size either, and a better suited size would be 125x125, that way you could use industry standard 120mm fans, the only manufacturer that makes anything close to this is NEXUS, it makes a NX- 5000 v1,a 550 watts which is only 125mm deep.
This size psu allows you to stack the psu under a rad and use the psu fan to push air through a wáter cooling rad, this could allow compact cases to have watercooling, its a clever idea, the first person i have seen use this set up is Miah Allen, I also feel the current design of mini itx cases, would benefit greatly from using a different distribution of the hardware inside the box, someone should come up with case that places the hard drives and slimp optical drive under the motherboard, that gives you far more freedom to provide cooling if you have less components and wiring in the way. A mini itx case with this distribution could house a high end graphic card several 2.5 hd and Slim optical drive, along with wáter cooling and a 240 mm rad, which could cool both cpu and gpu in a box roughly the size of and SG05.
any way my mind is wandering of course,
regards
Joe
The truth is that with each new generation cpu/gpu power requirements are going down therefore in a not too distant future we may be using something like powerfull pico psu equivalent.
Phuncz
2[H]4U
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- Apr 12, 2009
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I agree and this reply is especially to point that out as this topic doesn't tickle my interest (450W is plenty in 2013). Thank you Tony Ou, thanks to your insight I've grown to appreciate Silverstone more as a brand and it helped determine I will buy the ST45SF-G when my Ncase M1 arrives.I personally appreciate how candid Tony's been in this thread. He's gone above and beyond what most hardware folks are willing to talk about, and this kind of insight into the industry is quite enlightening. It feels similar to a video game postmortem panel or something.
Afaik they don't plan to sell them under their own brand, but rather are waiting for another brand to order and sell them.
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One problem with a 500-550W PSU silversonte might face, is that no one would really buy the 450Watt version anymore unless the 500-550W version would be significantly more expensive
Phuncz
2[H]4U
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That's because most people aren't aware that more watt is useless, unless you need it.
Most people see 450W SFX as too low-power, while it still powers plenty of high-end hardware without problems.
AFD
2[H]4U
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- Aug 7, 2013
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+1. 450W is adequate for my build (just barely, and not quite - depending upon which calculator I'm using).. but I would really prefer having a PSU with a little more headroom, just slightly above and beyond what I actually need.