Intel 900p Optane ...WOW

Discussion in 'SSDs & Data Storage' started by Brahmzy, Apr 5, 2018.

  1. Brahmzy

    Brahmzy [H]ardness Supreme

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    This thing is no joke. Cloned a 512GB NVMe 960 Pro to this 900p (280GB U2).
    Low-QD Random Read is where it’s at folks. The hype is real. This drive is disgusting fast for an OS drive.

    Got it on sale at NewEgg too. Really wished I would’ve grabbed another for another box.

    Highly recommended!

    This review says it all:
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-optane-ssd-900p-3d-xpoint,5292.html
     
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  2. DangerousMan

    DangerousMan Limp Gawd

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    I don't doubt the speed and would love to get one for my system, but this bit from the review is one reason why Im in no rush to switch;

    "It takes a more intense workload and a nearly-full drive for the 900P to separate itself from the pack of existing NVMe products. The drive is limited by processor speed—a variable you can fix with a little tuning—and the operating system's file system."

    And

    "There is a difference between seeing a performance improvement and actually using the drive to its full capabilities. We will never use the Optane 900P to its fullest in a desktop PC. We can say the same about NAND-based NVMe SSDs..."

    The real world numbers from that review show that, at least for now, the difference between a 960pro and a 900p is meaningless for most (outside of the [H] factor.)

    This part is why I would want, but Im willing to wait ($$cost$$);

    "You will see and feel a performance benefit just by using the Optane SSD 900P as your operating system drive. " and "With Optane, the difference is the type of performance you gain. "

    Price is the biggest factor, at just over twice the price of my 960pro (my 960 was $350 on sale after tax, equivalent 900p is at $780,)... no thanks, at least not for now.

    My question for you Brahmzy, since you went from 960pro to 900p, what exactly is real world difference between the two as an os drive, how would I "see and feel" the difference?
     
  3. Brahmzy

    Brahmzy [H]ardness Supreme

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    This statement:
    "You will see and feel a performance benefit just by using the Optane SSD 900P as your operating system drive. " and "With Optane, the difference is the type of performance you gain. "

    Describes it exactly. The one metric that SSDs have struggled with since they’ve been offered (been running many SSDs since 2006) is low queue depth random reads. These are the exact thing that’s makes things snappy on a consumer-level normal workload. Any SSD can have crazy sequential performance (which is also valuable) and any SSD can have great random performance at high queue depths - both metrics rarely visited, if ever on a consumer-level normal workload.
    The QD1-QD3 random read workloads are where 95% of users operate their machines on any given day. These 900ps essentially give a 400%-600% improvement in that area. Most tasks from browsing to opening apps to Windows Updates inventorying to drive cleaning to whatever, is all low-qd random reads. I’ve got a small SQL instance and other small databases on this drive and those things got a lot faster.

    Don’t get me wrong, 960 Pros are great drives and crazy fast - I’ve got a bunch of em. But the 900p is on a whole new level. You’ll notice it immediately. You’ll want more of them.

    Also, your price is skewed. The 280GB I got on sale for $339 on NewEgg a few days ago (I don’t need more than about 140GB anyway for an OS / App drive. And I actually got a lot of my 512GB 960 Pros from $290-$304 - a waste since I’m not using half the drive, but that was the smallest offered.

    You can do what you want - everybody’s needs and budgets are different. I’m just saying, as many different reviewers have said, these are literally the fastest SSDs you can buy right now for usable, real-world consumer metrics. For some/most, the price won’t be worth it, but that doesn’t change the facts...
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  4. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    No, it gives 0.05% improvement in those real life workloads. It has its benefits, but most users won't see them.
     
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  5. Brahmzy

    Brahmzy [H]ardness Supreme

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    ^^ So you own one? Got a lot of personal experience do you?
     
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  6. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    People said I wouldn’t see the performance difference going to my 950pro. They were wrong. Many times when loading levels in games (where task manager shows me reads of up to 2.6 gig a second) and amateur video editing I have noticed a big difference in performance. The 960 has to be faster still.

    One game (for example) where the loading times are markedly faster is Xcom 2 (WOTC).

    The difference is night and day from an 850evo which I use for other stuff which isn’t as performance dependent.

    I don’t think I would actually gain much from going optane from here.

    All depends on the software I suppose, if it’s something that gradually streams then bandwidth isn’t such an issue, if it is shoving great gobs of data across from non volatile storage to memory/graphics memory, that’s a different matter.
     
  7. Meeho

    Meeho [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'm going by the review you posted.
     
  8. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    I went from a Samsung M.2 SATA6 500GB SSD to a Samsung 960 EVO 500gb NVMe SSD and I was blown away. Huge noticeable difference. Now of course we are talking split seconds but you can feel 1 second difference, etc. I know I can.

    Now, I just recently ( 2 weeks ago ) went to a Samsung 960 Pro NVMe and I can only very occasionally catch a slight difference ( I think LOL ) here and there.

    I've been curious about this new Intel 900p Optane business but the super high price is keeping me at bay. I got lucky with my 1tb 960 Pro and only paid $250 for it. Selling had 4 and accepted my $250 bid.

    I might try and sell my 1tb 960 Pro and check out the Intel 900p Optane. Maybe, doubtful but ... maybe.
     
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  9. DangerousMan

    DangerousMan Limp Gawd

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    Would you say that its on par (noticeable) with the jump from hdd to ssd way back when? Speeding up multitasking (adobe+ office+ teamviewer+ web w/multiple tabs, maybe one tab is video) is always a plus. As for price, Im not in usa so cheapest 900p for me would be around $500 for 280gb but I haven't used less then 400gb for os drive in a long time.

    This is what Im trying to get at, I see the reviews, I see the numbers, but they are all synthetic benchmarks. Game level loads less then 1 second make no difference, at leat to me. Now my system is new, and high end at least for home use (I think... maybe not for [H]) and its used for lots of things aside from gaming. My brother might have office, teamviewer, his accounting work apps and firefox with multiple tabs open. My wife would have adobe, excel, teamviewer and all of the internet (minus pr0n) open in firefox tabs. Would there be noticeable difference there from a 960pro to 900p? What about adding handbrake into the mix, say encoding a file from one 960pro and saving to another 960pro (or in this case using a 960pro and 900p or 2 900p's?)

    Maybe I would notice a difference when playing around with dashcam footage. Just yesterday I loaded up 32gb of 1080p dashcam footage and was playing around with the editing/adding osd/hud icons when all of a sudden, for about 2 seconds, it was like I was watching a slideshow. I guess that would be a good case for where a 900p would outclass a 960pro?
     
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  10. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    Handbrake to handbrake isn’t hard drive limited.
     
  11. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    To notice a difference, you’d need to be doing Non linear video editing or saving huge amounts of data from memory to the hard drive. Or database work.
     
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  12. DangerousMan

    DangerousMan Limp Gawd

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    I know, but when using handbreak and doing other stuff too. Ill sometimes be running handbreak in the "background," by setting affinity to like 4/4, and then leaving 2/2 free for whatever. I know its cpu intensive but there is still disk access.
     
  13. DangerousMan

    DangerousMan Limp Gawd

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    So, like I was getting at before with my dashcam footage. I was going back and forth on the timeline, cutting parts out and highlighting others to add osd/hud icons. The raw files were a total of 32gb and there was a brief slideshow moment that I didnt like. But it was maybe 2 seconds out of an hour of me using the editing software.

    The thing is going by the reviews, they say using a 900p for os there would be a noticeable difference for regular desktop use, but a noticeable difference is not the same as using a 900p(or 960p) to full potential. Non linear editing, the data and database work would be using its full potential and not regular desktop use. Thats where my original question to brahmzy came from. I guess what Im trying to say is; anyone with a 900p thats not running benchmark only apps all day, to sell the drive to me. Is there really a noticeable os difference (as said in reviews) from a highend nvme to a 900p and is it worth the price difference?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  14. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    Handbrake doesn't use enough bandwidth to make a dent in even sata ssd speeds- we're talking up to 50 megabytes a sec for 4k - or 20 megabytes a sec - tops. Unless you've got a silly fast processor or asic to compress it.

    If you're hitting the disk with rendering using CUDA in premiere at 1080p or higher with 8+ streams and encoding handbrake (which you wouldn't be)... that's a possible case. Where merging 2-3 4k streams uncompressed becomes a bottleneck. Uncompressed 4k is 12gigabit per sec, or 1.2 Gigabytes per sec.

    If you're using after effects and you're running multithreaded processes (possible) using something like threadripper or i9 level gear with 64 gig of ram, that's a possible case.

    If you're moving around big files all day, using 10gigabit+ networks - that's a case for a 960p/960e.

    If you're running a deep learning database with >1 1080ti and a large database of high res images/audio/video as the source material - another case
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  15. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    Uncompressed 1080p is 237 MB/s - when scrolling through this you inevitably would have hit the bottleneck on a sata ssd capable of 550mb/s.
     
  16. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    I primarily use my 950pro for os/regular use applications, but also things that need a fair bit of bandwidth.
     
  17. DangerousMan

    DangerousMan Limp Gawd

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    I think you missed what I was getting at, or maybe I wasn't making it clear;
    in reviews, like one posted in op, they say that as an os drive it will be noticeable between using a highend nvme vs a 900p. They also state that seeing said difference and using a 900p (or nvme) to full potential is different. Heavy/complex workloads are where 900p separates from highend nvme, and that I agree with fully. Your examples are of heavy/complex, specific even, workloads.

    Reviewer writes

    "You will see and feel a performance benefit just by using the Optane SSD 900P as your operating system drive. The feel of the system changes even if you’re replacing a high-performance NVMe SSD. You will notice the increased responsiveness immediately and then gradually become accustomed to it."
    "There is a difference between seeing a performance improvement and actually using the drive to its full capabilities."
    "Your initial reaction to this is rational: if I can't use a 960 EVO to its fullest, why should I pay more for an Optane SSD 900P?
    With Optane, the difference is the type of performance you gain."

    So in my exaples of an os drive without heavy/complex workloads (aside from editing the dashcam footage,) would adobe photoshop/premiere load instantly, without a 1 second (maybe less even) splash screen? Firefox loads instantly, does it load instantlyer on a 900p? How/where does reviewer notice increased responsiveness immediately on a 900p vs 960pro without actually using the apps that can take full advantage of faster drives? I guess this is a case of actually having to see optane runing windows to understand vs just reading about it.
     
  18. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    I simply disagree with the reviewer. This is not about that. Optane makes sense only when:
    1. You run out of ram and need swap
    2. You do heavy file reads/writes (and 960evo/pro is pretty close here)
    3. You run databases
    4. You need it as cache in front of a raid of spinners or spinner

    I believe the placebo effect is strong with the reviewer

    Load screens on a 960 vs optane be damned. That kind of workload doesn’t even make sense to be faster imo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  19. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just watched around 4 or 5 videos in addition to maybe 3 or so web reviews.

    Not worth the massive price tag.

    Samsung 1tb NVMe all over ebay, new / system pulls for a little over $300 to $350.

    You would be hard pressed to get your monies worth. I love Intel but Intel has whacky ass pricing. Something they are known very well for.
     
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  20. daglesj

    daglesj [H]ardness Supreme

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    This is starting to sound to me like those folks on Hi-Fi forums that swear they can hear one bit error in a Red Book CD data stream.
     
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  21. Brahmzy

    Brahmzy [H]ardness Supreme

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    Again, low-qd random reads is what is different the 900p.
    If your workload you’re expecting to see a difference in is 90% sequential, it’ll be a wash with a 960 Pro / EVO.
    File transfers aren’t SSD limited. Instantlier is a good word to use, actually. Everything is instantlier. Some tasks are significantly faster, such as those things I mentioned.
    A long time ago, there was actually a good list a reviewer built showing virtually all the basic OS/everyday app operations and what their IO profile was.
    I cannot find it, but it would help describe the types of low-QD workloads that benefit.
    No I wouldn’t compare this to spinner vs SSD jump, unless you have a consistent, long-running workload that is 100% sustained QD1 random read. Then yeah, night n day.
    Loading a game level, you’re probably not going to notice anything coming from a 960 Pro, but I can’t say because I haven’t tried yet.
     
  22. Brahmzy

    Brahmzy [H]ardness Supreme

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    You should clarify - not worth it TO YOU. :)

    Never speak for others and their budgets/needs.
     
  23. Brahmzy

    Brahmzy [H]ardness Supreme

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    LOL! I do big hi-fi, and no, this is nothing like the snake-oil those guys get into. This you can immediately feel the difference and run metrics against, as reviews show.

    This is what I’m talking about:
    https://www.anandtech.com/show/12136/the-intel-optane-ssd-900p-480gb-review/5
     
  24. DangerousMan

    DangerousMan Limp Gawd

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    I don't doubt optane being faster then current nvme when using apps or doing something that is pushing limits of a 960pro. But when reviewers are saying 'responsiveness' for the os...
    I guess without actually using optane, Im having a hard time trying to picture how the benchmarks translate to real world use.

    That I can agree on. An 8700k + 2 960 pros was well within the budget I set for myself, even if an 8400 with 850s would have done just as good. But I refuse to pay over 1k for a 1070ti or 1080!
     
  25. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    Last sentence of the article “ For most ordinary and even relatively heavy desktop workloads, high-end flash storage is fast enough that further improvements are barely noticeable.”
     
  26. DangerousMan

    DangerousMan Limp Gawd

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    Kyle, any plans on a 900p [H] review? Or has FLECOM switched from buying all the hdds to buying all the ssds?!
     
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  27. Abula

    Abula Gawd

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    Damn didnt know 1080p uncompressed was that high, so 4k uncompressed would almost saturate a 10GE connection?
     
  28. jardows

    jardows [H]ard|Gawd

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    Maybe Kyle needs to do one of those blind "taste tests" like he has done with the video cards, only this time with SSD's!
     
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  29. Space_Ranger

    Space_Ranger Gawd

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    And if you're an AMD user, this drive is irrelevant. Just throwing that out there.
     
  30. Dew

    Dew 2[H]4U

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    Why? All the use cases being discussed here have nothing to do with Optane as HDD cache. This is just use as any other Nvme storage device. No special software or chipset required.
     
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  31. Space_Ranger

    Space_Ranger Gawd

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    Optane is only usable with Intel processors I thought(And only on the 7th generation Intel processors and up). If I'm wrong that'd be great but from what I was originally reading back when Optane was released, was that Intel was locking down what had access to the drive as far as Chipsets are concerned.
     
  32. Brahmzy

    Brahmzy [H]ardness Supreme

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    Optane has various uses, form factors etc. It all uses XPoint flash tech.
    If you’re using Optane to cache a disk array, yes, only possible on Intel platform.

    If using Optane as a writable block device (traditional), which is what I’m talking about, it’s platform agnostic, just like every other SSD out there.
     
  33. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    It would. But you typically wouldn’t watch it uncompressed.
     
  34. Abula

    Abula Gawd

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    i was just more wondering something like NDI.
     
  35. Space_Ranger

    Space_Ranger Gawd

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    Thanks.. Good to know.
     
  36. drescherjm

    drescherjm [H]ardForum Junkie

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    There are several ways around this limitation under windows and linux. Under windows if you can mount it as a drive you can use it with primocahe (paid software)

    https://www.romexsoftware.com/en-us/primo-cache/index.html

    Under linux there are several ways. One is with zfs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
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  37. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge Not the Idiot YOU are Looking for

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    I'm guessing that I need to wait for Rev 2 with PCIe 4x M.2 support; the 800p looks a little underwhelming while also being absurdly expensive.
     
  38. Balthazar2k4

    Balthazar2k4 CoreJizzer For Life

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    I have been using a 900p with my Threadripper system for nearly four months now. It has been a tangible improvement over the 950 EVO I was using prior. Everything just feels snappier. I would not go back to a traditional NAND drive for my OS drive. The difference is real.
     
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  39. Krixon

    Krixon Limp Gawd

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    I'm getting ready for a Threadripper build this summer (hopefully TR v2 is out by then) and am definitely considering the 280gb drive for my OS/960 Pro for Programs and Games/850Pro for Media.
     
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  40. Keljian

    Keljian Limp Gawd

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    yeah - but quantify that - it could be placebo