In a quandry here...

[Mklangelo]

I'm torn between a large screen LED or Plasma TV with the proper specs for gaming and use as a monitor or a 27 inch monitor
which will be for gaming/productivity.

I'd like to kill two birds with one stone and get about a 35-40 inch 1080P TV which is suited for gaming/TV watching and for use as a general purpose monitor.

But I hear some conflicting things: Such as I need a 120Hertz refresh rate on the TV to make it suitable for gaming. Then I read that it's really only 60 Hertz and they "fake" the other 60Hertz in order to make the claim.

Ok. I know there are some knowledgeable folks here so I throw this out there...

Should I just get a proper monitor for gaming around 27 inches and get a TV separately?

Or is there TV around 35-40 inches that will truly deliver the specs I need for Gaming/leisure viewing and serve me well as monitor for general computer productivity?

Any guidance here would be a blessing since it's a very confusing market out there for this sort of purchase.

Thanks in advance!

MK

 

[BHenry]

You don't need a TV that is more than 60 Hz unless you are one of the few people with special eyes who really can notice the difference. Though most TVs seem to be at least 120 Hz now anyways (useful for 3D). Gaming should be fine on the TV unless you are going to sit two or three feet away from it, which it isn't suited for. TV's have a recommended viewing distance based on size whereas monitors are made for up close viewing and reading text.

 

[timta2]

What are your gaming and viewing distances going to be? I agree with BHenry on the distance part of his post.

I personally wouldn't want to sit that close to a 35-45" screen running a resolution like 1080p.

 

[Mklangelo]

2 feet. lol So it looks like the TV will be a separate purchase, which I'm OK with.

Well I already have a 24 inch ViewSonic. (VA2448VM)

Which on ViewSonic's site has a frequency of 50-75Hertz.

and at 2-3 feet, a 24 or 27 inch monitor will be just fine.

Is response time of 2ms what one is after in a monitor? Just what specs am I going for in a monitor of this size?

Thank you for the input!

MK

 

[Racer_J]

But I hear some conflicting things: Such as I need a 120Hertz refresh rate on the TV to make it suitable for gaming. Then I read that it's really only 60 Hertz and they "fake" the other 60Hertz in order to make the claim.

Whoever is saying you need a 120Hz TV for gaming is spreading utter rubbish. 120Hz TVs do not have a native 120Hz refresh rate. All CCFL and LED backlit LCDs are only 60Hz regardless of what they claim to be. The 120Hz+ refresh rates on CCFL and LED backlit LCDs are achieved via frame interpolation (adding extra frames in) and this increases input lag which tends to make them unsuitable for gaming. There are some of the new OLED TVs that have a 120Hz refresh rate but they are incredibly expensive. Plasma TVs are also another matter as they tend to have a pretty high refresh rate IIRC.

If you want to look at using an TV to use as a monitor, you should take a look at the [H]ard|Forum for 4:4:4 and input lag, here at AVS for 4:4:4, here at AVS for input lag, and here at SRK for input lag[/url]. Keep in mind that the larger the screen is, the more spread out the pixels will become if you are getting a 1920x1080 TV which will necessitate sitting further away from it. Monitors do 4:4:4 by default so you only need to worry about the input lag on a monitor. Also, when it comes to TVs stick with something that is 32" or larger as anything smaller than 32" will likely have a TN panel and they are really just monitors with extra video inputs and scalers shoved into them.

As for what you should do, it depends on what you want. Do you really want to have two displays that each serve a specific purpose to the best of the ability or do you want something that can do both but potentially not as well as two separate displays? What type of panel do you want (A-MVA, S-MVA, S-PVA, e-IPS, AH-IPS, S-IPS, PLS, Plasma, OLED, etc.)? What type of backlighting do you want? How important are viewing angles? How important is perceived black level depth? How important is ghosting? Do you need it to properly apply pulldown to 24p video content (DVDs, Blu-ray, cable/satellite)? How far will you be sitting from the display? How large is the room? What are the ambient lighting conditions like when you will be viewing the display? The list really just goes on and on and a lot of that needs to be revealed if you want to see any specific make and model recommendations.

 

[Racer_J]

Is response time of 2ms what one is after in a monitor? Just what specs am I going for in a monitor of this size?

When you see response time on a display, it's referring to pixel transition times and they are often pretty exaggerated.

 

[Mklangelo]

Racer_J, I appreciate the response but you have just made the decision more difficult by spouting dense jargon that very few ppl understand at a glance. I'm not looking for a part time job here, just trying to buy a good gaming monitor and have already decided on that and am forgetting about a TV that will do two jobs at once.

 

[#Grey]

Racer_J, I appreciate the response but you have just made the decision more difficult by spouting dense jargon that very few ppl understand at a glance. I'm not looking for a part time job here, just trying to buy a good gaming monitor and have already decided on that and am forgetting about a TV that will do two jobs at once.

ook ook TV bad monitor good

Better?

 

[Mklangelo]

lol... uggg me by monater

 

[geok1ng]

Avoiding jargon: if its plasma, there is no image blur even at 60Hz. Plasma is unlike LCD and for an LCD to reach plasma motion blur it would need 480Hz+ refresh rate.
so if you are gaming in a plasma TV, motion is not a problem. 120Hz do not matter.

But when gaming in any TV, input lag becomes an important part of the decision, so i am sorry, but you must check for input lag on the links mentioned above.
And finally, if the plasma TV is going to be used for PC games, you might encounter (small) problems related to color space, that might degrade slightly image quality. once again you must check the links above.

I would avoid non-plasma Tvs- they have nothing gaming wise to offer for a PC user- you can get better results and higher resolution on a 2560x1440 korean 27".

We can help you more if you tell us what kind of games you play.

 

[Mklangelo]

Avoiding jargon: if its plasma, there is no image blur even at 60Hz. Plasma is unlike LCD and for an LCD to reach plasma motion blur it would need 480Hz+ refresh rate.
so if you are gaming in a plasma TV, motion is not a problem. 120Hz do not matter.

But when gaming in any TV, input lag becomes an important part of the decision, so i am sorry, but you must check for input lag on the links mentioned above.
And finally, if the plasma TV is going to be used for PC games, you might encounter (small) problems related to color space, that might degrade slightly image quality. once again you must check the links above.

I would avoid non-plasma Tvs- they have nothing gaming wise to offer for a PC user- you can get better results and higher resolution on a 2560x1440 korean 27".

We can help you more if you tell us what kind of games you play.

BF3, which I think is a pretty demanding game. Am I incorrect in thinking that a monitor that can deliver a great experience with this game will just about handle anything I can throw at it?

(i5-3570K with an ASUS HD7850-DC2T-2GD5-V2)

I think I will forget about the TV for now and go for a 24 inch monitor. I'm looking at this one: http://www.amazon.com/Asus-VE247H-24-Inch-Integrated-Speakers/dp/B004EFUOY4/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8&colid=1N5WRHC5ZWNTC&coliid=IJB7TMZ1X40YB


I suppose ~$200 US is about my budget.

And just to be clear, Racer_J, It's obvious you've forgotten more about this stuff than I might ever know, so I do thank you. I was just having a bit o' fun is all.

And I will look deeper into the info you posted!

 

[Racer_J]

BF3, which I think is a pretty demanding game. Am I incorrect in thinking that a monitor that can deliver a great experience with this game will just about handle anything I can throw at it?

BF3 from what I understand (I don't play FPS games) is demanding on the CPU, RAM, and video card. I don't think it would any more demanding on a display than any other game would be as input lag, viewing angles, the resolution they are being run at, etc. affect all games. However, any FPS game (or a game where you control the direction the camera/character is looking) tends to show off ghosting and blur more. At the same time though, even an 8 bit (NES) Mario jumping on a dark background can show this.

You're not wrong in your assumption and chances are that if a display meet your need for BF3, it should meet your other gaming needs as well. Video playback of a 24p source though like a DVD is another can of worms and it will likely look very choppy compared to how it would on a TV. I know you plan on getting a TV later but, I just want to make sure you are aware that you may not like how 24p video looks.

And just to be clear, Racer_J, It's obvious you've forgotten more about this stuff than I might ever know, so I do thank you. I was just having a bit o' fun is all.

And I will look deeper into the info you posted!

I didn't take any offense to it. When I posted, only the original post and "BHenry's" reply were in the thread so I was under the impression an all in solution was still being looked for. I saw "Timta2's" reply and your reply to his after I made my initial reply.

That being said, I know it's a lot of reading and even I get bored when doing research. It does drastically reduce the chances of buyer's remorse though but, no matter how much research you do and no matter how much "praise" an item gets, it won't rule out not being happy and needing to make a return. In the end, everyone's perceptions are as different as our viewing environments are.


On a side note, if I don't respond to anything specific (like your monitor link or your budget for example) it's because I don't have a specific answer or I know someone else can give you a better answer. I just didn't want you to feel like I was skipping over something or ignoring it.

Now that you are shopping for a monitor though and BF3 was mentioned, you are probably going to see people telling you to look for a 120 Hz monitor and to increase your budget. There are monitors with a native 120 Hz refresh rate but they will all be TN panels. There are also very specific 27" 2560x1440 monitors that can be overclocked to 120Hz+ but, they are expensive and they are pretty demanding when it comes to gaming. At this point, it's really going to about choosing a panel type based on the advantages and drawbacks that the different panel technologies have. If you decide you need or want 120Hz, you will have no choice but to get a TN panel unless you can afford one of the 27" 2560x1440 monitors that can overclock and have the hardware to game at resolution. If you are OK with 60Hz, you can choose between TN, IPS, and VA but, VA panels are fairly uncommon.

If you want a VA panel "close" to your budget your will be looking at the Dell S2440L (24" 1920x1080), BenQ GW2450HM (24" 1920x1080), and BenQ GW2750HM (27" 1920x1080). All three are going to be in the $250 or $300 range though unless you catch a sale price and BenQ is apparently bad at service in the US. They also all have threads here at [H]ard|Forum which will tell you everything you ever needed to know and more about them. I bought the S2440L yesterday but, I haven't finished forming an opinion on it yet.

If you want an IPS panel, I would personally look at the VX2770SMH-LED. It's also out of your budget since it's around $300 but, the one NCX reviewed looked pretty impressive. I strongly considered getting one the past couple of days even though I am not a fan of the perceived black level depth of IPS panels. There are cheaper IPS monitors but, none of them will measure up to the VX2770SMH-LED NCX got his hands on. To be fair, his could be a factory freak but, I truly hope it represents a majority of them.

If you want a TN panel, someone else will have to help you with that as it's just not a panel type I am interested in owning.


*start of edit* Forgot to mention that you will also need to decide if you want a matte, semi-glossy, or glossy finish on the panel. *end of edit*

 

[Mklangelo]

So to me it looks like the IPS panel is better viewing angles and more vibrant colors. So far IPS gets my vote.

The model you suggested, the VX2770SMH-LED has a 7ms response time. Am I incorrect in thinking that one would want a 2ms response time for fast action gaming?

But an IPS panel, at least for me seems like the way to go.

 

[Racer_J]

So to me it looks like the IPS panel is better viewing angles and more vibrant colors. So far IPS gets my vote.

The model you suggested, the VX2770SMH-LED has a 7ms response time. Am I incorrect in thinking that one would want a 2ms response time for fast action gaming?

But an IPS panel, at least for me seems like the way to go.

A 2ms repose time would be better provided it's actually a 2ms response time. Times are measured differently by different companies in order to get the lowest number for advertising so it's a bit subjective. If someone were to independently confirm display "A" was actually 2ms and display "B" was actually 7ms, then technically the 2ms would be "faster" in response time. The question then becomes would owner "X" actually notice said difference. I've never seen a 2ms or 7ms response time display in PixPerAn (which is a testing program) nor in person so, I can't really tell you that. I have however seen something like the Dell S2440L which looks terrible in PixPerAn due to all the overshoot (caused by aggressive and poorly done overdrive) but looks great in a game. At the same time, that overshoot shows up in 24p video playback from time to time without even looking for it. Again, it's all subjective based on what you are viewing, what you notice, how well the hardware does its job (e.g. handling overdrive better), and if something "advertised" like contrast ratio or response time are actually legit.

If you absolutely have to have the best pixel response time possible on a LCD, TN panels still rule the roost. IPS and VA are still playing "catchup" but they are improving and they have other advantages over TN.


*start of edit* IPS certainly has the best viewing angles but the colour issue is not as clear cut. Calibration is what ensures colour accuracy and there are inaccurate IPS panels even after calibration. That's true for VA and TN as well. I have a U2311HM which is e-IPS and, I had an LG 32CS560 which was S-IPS. IPS panels are great at what they do but, I wouldn't say either "looked" (I lack calibration hardware) like it had better colour than the Dynex DX-32L230A12 (A-MVA panel) or Samsung UN32EH5000 (S-PVA panel) I had. They all looked very similar barring the better viewing angles on the IPS panels, the better perceived black level depth on the VA panels, and the horrible sparkle on the U2311Hm because of its aggressive antiglare coating. *end of edit*

 

[#Grey]

If you put an IPS panel next to a TN or VA panel the color difference is noticable right out of the box, at least, it was for me when I had a couple of them side-by-side, however Racer_J is correct when he says that calibration is what ensures solid color accuracy.

 

[Racer_J]

If you put an IPS panel next to a TN or VA panel the color difference is noticable right out of the box, at least, it was for me when I had a couple of them side-by-side, however Racer_J is correct when he says that calibration is what ensures solid color accuracy.

I should have stated that I "eyeballed" the "calibration" using the Lagom and Vanity.dk pages on everything I mentioned and made my comparison based on that. They all looked "bad" out of the box as they were all in "torch" mode with a bunch of "gimmick" features activated (the Dells didn't have any activated). I should have also pointed out that even though you can calibrate a TN panel, you should do to its native white point rather than D65 (6500k). I wanted to say it's impossible to see the entire screen calibrated at the same time because of the immense vertical gamma shift and viewing angle issues TN panels have but, I don't know if that's currently true as the last TN panel I used was from over six years ago and they have improved a bit since then IIRC.

 

[poindexter]

...I should have also pointed out that even though you can calibrate a TN panel, you should do to its native white point rather than D65 (6500k)....

Not trying to hijack this thread, but could you explain briefly why TN should be calibrated to native white point? I've never heard this before.

 

[Mklangelo]

Well, I'd like a recommendation for a 24-27 inch LED for gaming if any one has one. Viewing angle is not a key concern. viewing distance is 2-3 feet.
Response time and quality image are the main concerns. 300 is the budget.

Not too sure which is the better interface. HDMI or DVI so I'm open 2 either. Speakers aren't important since Ill be using headphones.

Thanks much for the education!

MK

 

[Racer_J]

Not trying to hijack this thread, but could you explain briefly why TN should be calibrated to native white point? I've never heard this before.

I can't give you specifics as to why but, I saw it mentioned several times lately when I was researching calibration hardware and software and various monitors. Seems like I saw it at AVS but I just don't honestly recall where given all the places I've been reading the past few days. It was mentioned that you could choose to calibrate to D56 (6500k) if you wanted too but, it was recommended that you calibrate to the native white point instead. I guess I should have bookmarked it. Sorry i couldn't provide further details.

Well, I'd like a recommendation for a 24-27 inch LED for gaming if any one has one. Viewing angle is not a key concern. viewing distance is 2-3 feet.
Response time and quality image are the main concerns. 300 is the budget.

Not too sure which is the better interface. HDMI or DVI so I'm open 2 either. Speakers aren't important since Ill be using headphones.

Thanks much for the education!

MK

As far as HDMI and DVI goes, neither will be of better image quality. Dual-link DVI is what most of the 27" 2560x1440 Korean monitors are using but that's mainly a bandwidth issue as a result of the resolution just like Displayport is. Having an HDMI port will allow you to connect HDMI devices to it like a PS3 or 360 though.

With your budget at $300, I still recommend the VX2770SMH-LED. It has a matte finish on it but it's apparently not as obtrusive as the aggressive AG (anti glare) coatings are. At the end of NCX's review he stated that the LG IPS277L was another matte 27" 1920x1080 monitor or to get the Acer S275HL if anyone wanted a glossy 27" 1920x1080 monitor. The LG is above your price cap but the Accer is $290 at Newegg. If you have a Microcenter near you, they will price match Newegg, or you can order from Amazon and see if they will price match or, you can see if your local BestBuy will order it via BestBuy Business and price match Newegg. Given how many monitors NCX has had/reviewed, all three of those are a safe bet but, I don't really know of a 24" IPS monitor to recommend to you off the top of my head.

 

[livefastdieyoung]

It was mentioned that you could choose to calibrate to D56 (6500k) if you wanted too but, it was recommended that you calibrate to the native white point instead.

the only reason i can really think of to calibrate to a monitor's native white point instead of a specific one is that calibrating to native white point maximizes contrast. if the native white point is, say, 10000k, calibrating to 6500k necessarily entails reducing the blue channel (and possibly green and red to hit the exact target color temp), which will reduce contrast. the contrast reduction may or may not be noticeable to the eye though.

With your budget at $300, I still recommend the VX2770SMH-LED. It has a matte finish on it but it's apparently not as obtrusive as the aggressive AG (anti glare) coatings are. At the end of NCX's review he stated that the LG IPS277L was another matte 27" 1920x1080 monitor or to get the Acer S275HL if anyone wanted a glossy 27" 1920x1080 monitor. The LG is above your price cap but the Accer is $290 at Newegg.

ncx's vx2770 wasn't a fluke - the one i use now performs the same as his (and the first one i had which i returned due to panel uniformity issues was otherwise just as good).

the vx2770 can run up to 82hz over hdmi which is a nice bonus.

the acer has a lot of rtc overshoot by default. overdrive can be disabled in the service menu, but it will not stay disabled through a power cycle or signal change. but otherwise, image quality is about the same as the viewsonic.

 

[Racer_J]

Livefast,

Thank you for the clarification on native white points and, for sharing your experience with the VX2770SMH-LED. Could you please tell me how close absolute black matches the bezel on it in an environment with ambient lighting and without?

 

[livefastdieyoung]

Could you please tell me how close absolute black matches the bezel on it in an environment with ambient lighting and without?

calibrated to 140 cd/m2, the black level ends up at about 0.12 cd/m2 on my unit. in a dim environment, a full black screen is discernible from the bezel around it.

i turned the brightness down to 0 (~ 65cd/m2) and even then, absolute black is not as black as the bezel.

 

[Racer_J]

calibrated to 140 cd/m2, the black level ends up at about 0.12 cd/m2 on my unit. in a dim environment, a full black screen is discernible from the bezel around it.

i turned the brightness down to 0 (~ 65cd/m2) and even then, absolute black is not as black as the bezel.

Thank you very much.

 

[Mklangelo]

I do realize that this thread has about run its course. But Geez, Poindexter, you really did Hi-Jack this thing. Thanks to the great info by Racer_J who never told me what to do but simply "educated" me I thank you for taking the time! This is obviously a topic you and PoindDexter knowledgeable in.

Now as for U Mr. Poindexter, start you own thread in future. You have a great topic and I'm sure lots of ppl will just jump right in!

All the best and *drum roll please....

I have broken it down to Two (2) monitors. based upon the tremendous amount and very useful info provided in this thread.

I've decided to go with a TN type panel.

It's either the Asus VS248H-P or the ViewSonic VX2460H-LED. Both I feel are solid buys and are very comparable.

Of course this is always open to the panel (no pun intended) lol


MK

 

[#Grey]

Don't you have a Fry's Electronics or a Best Buy where you could just go and look at them?

 

[Racer_J]

Don't you have a Fry's Electronics or a Best Buy where you could just go and look at them?

Most people do but, a retail environment is one of the worst places to judge a display (barring a properly lit area in it (which are usually very small and limited in what they showcase there). The stuff on display in the "normal" part of the store will all be set to really bad settings and the bright overhead lighting will mask issues, make the display look very different from how it will look in the actual user's environment, etc. Monitors are even worse to look at in a store than a TV is because you can't "use" them. The monitors are just running a signal feed of looped playback like the TVs are. As such, it's impossible to tell how a monitor will behave with PC usage.

The retail environment is great if you want to go in and see the physical dimensions of product in person, play with the menus, immediately purchase your product and leave with it, etc. It's a very bad place to try and judge I/PQ (image/picture quality) though because the stores are simply not set up for that.

 

[#Grey]

Most people do but, a retail environment is one of the worst places to judge a display (barring a properly lit area in it (which are usually very small and limited in what they showcase there). The stuff on display in the "normal" part of the store will all be set to really bad settings and the bright overhead lighting will mask issues, make the display look very different from how it will look in the actual user's environment, etc. Monitors are even worse to look at in a store than a TV is because you can't "use" them. The monitors are just running a signal feed of looped playback like the TVs are. As such, it's impossible to tell how a monitor will behave with PC usage.

The retail environment is great if you want to go in and see the physical dimensions of product in person, play with the menus, immediately purchase your product and leave with it, etc. It's a very bad place to try and judge I/PQ (image/picture quality) though because the stores are simply not set up for that.

Sure, but it's hardly worse than trusting a bunch of strangers on the Internet claiming to be experts (no offense, from what I see you genuinely know what you're talking about) to tell you what to buy. It's a culmination of reading as much as you can about the product and going to see it in person, there a few things you can learn from actually seeing the display beyond just the physical properties of the product.

Furthermore, the monitor section at my Fry's has several rows of popular displays hooked up to computers with good quality DVI and HDMI cables where you can play around with them and get a feel for the display with some different applications, short of actaully buying the monitor it's a great way to get a feel for a display. The sales people were also very helpful and would hook up a particular display if they had one not connected to a PC so you could try it out upon request. Best Buy just had a bunch of monitors lined up and plugged in via VGA as you'd expect from a place like that but not everyone has a Fry's outlet so I still reccomended it.

 

[Racer_J]

Sure, but it's hardly worse than trusting a bunch of strangers on the Internet claiming to be experts (no offense, from what I see you genuinely know what you're talking about) to tell you what to buy.

I absolutely agree with you on that. Advice and discussion will only get any given person so far regardless of who is dispensing it. All the research in the world doesn't mean it will work out the way someone said, implied, or thought it would because there are ultimately far too many variables involved.

Furthermore, the monitor section at my Fry's has several rows of popular displays hooked up to computers with good quality DVI and HDMI cables where you can play around with them and get a feel for the display with some different applications, short of actaully buying the monitor it's a great way to get a feel for a displa.

I haven't been in a Fry's for years. In fact the last time I went to one, those old Vantec 80mm Tornado cooling fans were the cooling fans that moved the most air which was back shortly after the "Incredible Universe" chain failed. That's really cool that Fry's sets their monitors up like that though as they are just running a split feed at pretty much any other chain. I don't even think Microcenter has them hooked up to an actual PC but, I'm not sure. It's too bad more chains don't set up their displays for actual usage but, it's not too surprising given how logistics and "bean counting" work in retail. That sort of makes me want to go to Fry's just to have a look around.

 

[Mklangelo]

Again thanks for all the info. And as for trusting a bunch of strangers with where I'll spend my hard-earned dollars, any time you read any review it's written by a stranger but my approach to purchase research is the same for how I take my World/local News. From a wide variety of UNRELATED sources! This being just one!

Thanks guys. So long for now!