id Software's Official DOOM3 Benchmarks

[^eMpTy^]

A hundred times? Where? I have yet to see any release from ID saying that. If you have a link that would be more than helpful.

This really should be common knowledge at this point. There are a dozen posts about this in this thread alone and Carmack has been quoted several times that the nv3x codepath was dropped once their drivers matured and they can now run the arb2 codepath just as fast as ati.

If I had a link I'd give you one but I'm not sure where I saw this, since it has appeared on every site at some point.

Have a look around, I assure you, I'm not making it up.

 

[Chris_B]

This has been predicted for years. Our pc's have become overgrown consoles. Titles exclusive to different videocards. This is only the beginning.

Even if something was done to stop it you could rest assured you;d get the old "nudge nudge wink wink *hands over wad of cash" behind closed doors". Companies sucking up to one vendor shouldn't be allowed but i doubt it will change.

 

[^eMpTy^]

Even if something was done to stop it you could rest assured you;d get the old "nudge nudge wink wink *hands over wad of cash" behind closed doors". Companies sucking up to one vendor shouldn't be allowed but i doubt it will change.

Jesus christ, this is all in your heads. Point me to any underhanded goings on between developers and graphics companies...I simply don't believe it exists...and certainly not in the case of Doom3.

 

[pxc]

Something wrong with you? It was totally unoptomised, not even a beta just something valve threw together to showcase some of the stuff in the game. If we're gonna go by leaked shit then i can whoop and holler about getting 70fps in the doom 3 leak at 1280x1024, yeah its real representative of a finished product.

Or if you wanna go on about it check the doom 3 results from what carmack said he "believes it to be representative of the final game in a performance sense" right here http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDc0. Funny i dont see the 9800 or fx boards getting those frame rates now, whys that i wonder? Could it be the game wasn't finished? SURELY NOT???

No, nothing wrong with me. Thanks for asking.

Obviously at the time it was tested, that was the performance. 12 months pass, the NV30 rendering path is dropped and a completely different timedemo is tested. You seem to believe that 2 completely different demos (each with an unknown amount of work being performed... demo1 is obviously a demo similar to other released product timedemos, test2 could just be walking around a level), a year of tweaking and a dropped rendering path boils down to x = x, OMG JC IS A LIAR!!!!!!1 There are several variables, least of all the change in timedemo itself.

Of couse HL2 wasn't finished when it was stolen. But it is representative of what Valve itself had enough confidence to proclaim as performance the same week as they released these benchmarks in September 2003: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1264301,00.asp Keep the date (9/10/03) of those benchmarks in mind as you look at the digit-life results (code stolen from the same week).

 

[Filter]

Jesus christ, this is all in your heads. Point me to any underhanded goings on between developers and graphics companies...I simply don't believe it exists...and certainly not in the case of Doom3.

what about the features in tron that are only enalbed on nvidia cards?

 

[pxc]

This has been predicted for years. Our pc's have become overgrown consoles. Titles exclusive to different videocards. This is only the beginning.

I wouldn't play D3 on a console. I hate FPS games on consoles.

keyboard + mouse for life (on FPS games).

 

[ZenOps]

Honestly though, up until this release there has been about zero need for OpenGL 2.0 support, most CAD/CAE software still use the older stuff, along with I think KOTOR.

ATi never has been strong with OpenGL, its true. Last I heard, they moved from a MCD to an ICD (that was like two years ago, the last big increase in speed in OGL for ATi) but never really got into a hand-optimized assembly version or anything. At the time it was looking like OpenGL might die just like Glide did, just like ATi's CIF did, and Nvidia's Cg pretty well did.

Just like could say Nvidia peeps and DX9.0c and SM3.0 have a lot of room for speed improvement, so too you could say ATi has room for speed improvement in OpenGL. Still, At the rate ATi is releasing drivers, they've got one shot of making a sped up OpenGl with the Doom 3 release (But I'm not optimistic it will happen right away, probably like CAT 5.1 before it catches up.)

I'm not so sure both are doing an ARB2 path? How is that even possible if Nvidia in hardware cannot do 24-bitFP? Even the 5950's capabilities are far different then the 6800, and I would not be surprised at all if they used different optimized rendering paths.

 

[pxc]

what about the features in tron that are only enalbed on nvidia cards?

nvidia wrote the code for the glow effect, not Monolith.

 

[^eMpTy^]

what about the features in tron that are only enalbed on nvidia cards?

From x-bit labs:

NVIDIA and Monolith together developed this special effect for Tron 2.0 game, and without it the game loses at least half of its unique charm.

I didn't see anything about the effect being Nvidia-only, and ATi cards ran the game a hell of a lot faster at the time anyways.

Again, Nvidia working closely with a developer to deliver the best performance on its hardware is a GOOD thing. The question is why isn't ATi doing the same? Oh wait, they are.

 

[Chris_Morley]

Honestly though, up until this release there has been about zero need for OpenGL 2.0 support, most CAD/CAE software still use the older stuff, along with I think KOTOR.

ATi never has been strong with OpenGL, its true. Last I heard, they moved from a MCD to an ICD (that was like two years ago, the last big increase in speed in OGL for ATi) but never really got into a hand-optimized assembly version or anything. At the time it was looking like OpenGL might die just like Glide did, just like ATi's CIF did, and Nvidia's Cg pretty well did.

Just like could say Nvidia peeps and DX9.0c and SM3.0 have a lot of room for speed improvement, so too you could say ATi has room for speed improvement in OpenGL. Still, At the rate ATi is releasing drivers, they've got one shot of making a sped up OpenGl with the Doom 3 release (But I'm not optimistic it will happen right away, probably like CAT 5.1 before it catches up.)

I'm not so sure both are doing an ARB2 path? How is that even possible if Nvidia in hardware cannot do 24-bitFP? Even the 5950's capabilities are far different then the 6800, and I would not be surprised at all if they used different optimized rendering paths.

It NEVER looked like OpenGL was going to die...just look at all the professional 3D programs out there! FireGL, Wildcat, Quadro, these are all kickass pro-OpenGL cards.

 

[mi1stormilst]

It's one game people, grant it a good one...I for one am not making a choice YET! Gotta see some more benchmarks and more in depth ones for sure. I was excited to read it but when I saw how shallow it was it lost its luster real quick. I certainly would not base an opinion off this particular article right away. However, It looks good for nvidia TODAY! ;-) I am waiting for HL2, price drops, drivers, and new generation video cards.

 

[burningrave101]

HL2 is going to be freaking awesome as well, a lot of games are going to be based on that engine. I would probably build another system w/ a x800pro just for HL2 if the 6800 sucks at it.

Unless Valve does some hardcore cheating for ATI there is no way the X800's are going to perform alot better in HL2. The 6800's and X800's are going to run in Half Life 2 much like they do in every other D3D game. In the Half Life 2 leak the 6800's and X800's are tied. I'm sure things have changed since then but i doubt the X800's are running away with it. Half Life 2 will also support SM 3.0. Heck, we might even get something like HDR implemented later on. DOOM3 is going to have the effects of HDR i believe. I'm not really sure though.

The Source engine isn't going to be as graphics intensive as the DOOM3 engine is. The system specs for HL2 are quite a bit lower then D3.

 

[^eMpTy^]

Honestly though, up until this release there has been about zero need for OpenGL 2.0 support, most CAD/CAE software still use the older stuff, along with I think KOTOR.

ATi never has been strong with OpenGL, its true. Last I heard, they moved from a MCD to an ICD (that was like two years ago, the last big increase in speed in OGL for ATi) but never really got into a hand-optimized assembly version or anything. At the time it was looking like OpenGL might die just like Glide did, just like ATi's CIF did, and Nvidia's Cg pretty well did.

See right there. ATi put OpenGL on the back burner, because it apparently doesn't care about CAD performance, even though it makes professional CAD cards!?

And they thought OpenGL was going to die off even though Doom3 was scheduled for release this year and has been for a long long time!?

Just like could say Nvidia peeps and DX9.0c and SM3.0 have a lot of room for speed improvement, so too you could say ATi has room for speed improvement in OpenGL. Still, At the rate ATi is releasing drivers, they've got one shot of making a sped up OpenGl with the Doom 3 release (But I'm not optimistic it will happen right away, probably like CAT 5.1 before it catches up.)

I'm not so sure both are doing an ARB2 path? How is that even possible if Nvidia in hardware cannot do 24-bitFP? Even the 5950's capabilities are far different then the 6800, and I would not be surprised at all if they used different optimized rendering paths.

The drivers used by ATi for this test were Cat 4.9, already 2 versions ahead of the current release.

Nvidia is for sure running the ARB2 codepath, that much I am sure about. The whole 24bit thing on the NV40 still has me confused.

 

[Lord of Shadows]

I just noticed that nivida broke the 60fps limit how is this so ? I mean isnt it limited to 60fps yet it showed 61 fps ? hmmm hehe just curious about this.

Alright, the engine is capped to 60hz in the game engine, not fps. What does this mean? The way time passes in a game is constant, and not determined with how fast your computer is rendering. And since time doesnt progress when rendering faster than 60hz you start rendering identical frames.

As for benchmarks, they could render a still scene as many times as they want and still work in the sense of a benchmark. You are trying to figure out how fast a card can draw the objects and flip its buffers, not necessarily how fast it can draw different objects.

And as for the Shader Day event, Gabe Newell had some serious problems with nvidia for some reason and wasnt afraid to show it.

 

[Shane]

Thanks for the info

 

[Chris_B]

Was actually hollenstead that stated the game was capped to 60 FPS in an interview with gamespot, he said "no matter what you do its not going to run faster than that". Think the main reason was to stop the cheesy fps specific jumps of the old quake 3 engine.

 

[ZenOps]

I disagree... OpenGL 2.0 looked completely stillborn. I would even say today that OpenGL would probably not exist except for Doom3. Carmack can be seen as a saviour for the last standout against D3D.

OpenAL (audio) is nearly dead now.

There is no OpenNeworking code for LAN/internet play, which means OpenGL should not integrate very well into any internet game (and I think its showing right now)

 

[Lord of Shadows]

He is right, just everyone got the impression the card would stop at 60fps and stop rendering. If your rendering 100fps in doom3, its still running at "60fps" graphics wise, thats in quotations for obvious reasons. I would hate to be quoted by someone supporting the false stop @ 60 campaign.

 

[iamsiege]

Anyone know where I can find a GT that ships to or is in Canada?

 

[Lord of Shadows]

I disagree... OpenGL 2.0 looked completely stillborn. I would even say today that OpenGL would probably not exist except for Doom3. Carmack can be seen as a saviour for the last standout against D3D.

OpenAL (audio) is nearly dead now.

There is no OpenNeworking code for LAN/internet play, which means OpenGL should not integrate very well into any internet game (and I think its showing right now)

OpenGL is a rendering api, you tell it what to draw it will draw it. It has absolutely nothing to do with networking or audio. Direct3d is microsofts brand of API, DirectX is a collection, which was needed in windows badly to allow direct cummunication between hardware and software, without the kernal getting in the way, hence the name direct.

 

[creedAMD]

Does the x800pro and 6800 do opengl 2.0? what about the 9800pro and 59xx series?

 

[Lord of Shadows]

They will all "do" it, supporting all of its features is another thing, check the side of your box for compliance.

 

[^eMpTy^]

I disagree... OpenGL 2.0 looked completely stillborn. I would even say today that OpenGL would probably not exist except for Doom3. Carmack can be seen as a saviour for the last standout against D3D.

OpenAL (audio) is nearly dead now.

There is no OpenNeworking code for LAN/internet play, which means OpenGL should not integrate very well into any internet game (and I think its showing right now)

This is true for gaming. OpenGL is on the way out. And here's why I don't like ATi right now. They make professional CAD cards. So why haven't they spent the last 2 years with the r300 core re-writing those drivers? Why is it that we are just now hearing they are re-writing them just before the release of Doom3? That's just a complete lack of foresight on thier part.

 

[oozish]

wow, 28, 916 views! Good topic!

 

[Lord of Shadows]

This is true for gaming. OpenGL is on the way out. And here's why I don't like ATi right now. They make professional CAD cards. So why haven't they spent the last 2 years with the r300 core re-writing those drivers? Why is it that we are just now hearing they are re-writing them just before the release of Doom3? That's just a complete lack of foresight on thier part.

Saying OpenGL is out is like saying windows is the only operating system that exists...

 

[Xipher]

OpenGL is going to stay around, with the fact that more games are being made for more then just windows being the biggest reason. Also, how many CAD programs do you see that use DirectX? I don't know of any personally, but I haven't used many either.

 

[hamm3rhead]

Saying OpenGL is out is like saying windows is the only operating system that exists...

For gaming it almost is... lets not discuss mac's but when it comes to linux, gaming is obviously not top priority. Not complaining though I truly appreciate the efforts in making custom installers/guides etc to get windows PC games running on linux. But as far as market share linux hasn't made any huge gaming wins yet. Mac's are just silly

 

[archevilangel]

I wonder if for ATI next gen we will see a technique similar to ultra shadow 2, obviously it's a successful technology.

 

[Lord of Shadows]

For gaming it almost is... lets not discuss mac's but when it comes to linux, gaming is obviously not top priority. Not complaining though I truly appreciate the efforts in making custom installers/guides etc to get windows PC games running on linux. But as far as market share linux hasn't made any huge gaming wins yet. Mac's are just silly

Your probably right in terms of usage, but you forget that if it werent for opengl directx would be unchallenged, and microsoft isnt exactly what I would call self motivating.

 

[ZenOps]

I would think Microsoft and ATi were both thinking (more likely hoping) than CAD/CAE would move to D3D.... Its a pretty safe assumption, and may yet come true.

A few years from now, there may be no need for D3D or OGL at least for video. All the GPU's are programmable. So for example: If you were making a 3D object and did not like the way the AA looked on it, you could just rotate the AA grid for that object (having a programmable engine negates the need for a standardized and constrictive set of rendering programs like OGL and D3D)

 

[pxc]

Does the x800pro and 6800 do opengl 2.0? what about the 9800pro and 59xx series?

I know the NV3x does support HLSL and I just tested it on my 6800GT using glview210. For a while the OpenGL driver showed version 2.0, but now it's just 1.5.1 with GL_ARB_shader_objects enabled.

I have no idea what support is like for the x800. I should have a 9800 tomorrow or Monday to play with (should have the same OpenGL support, especially for shaders). I snagged one from compgeeks.com yesterday for $129.

 

[Cannibal Corpse]

So can my system play DOOM3 with no trouble then?

P4 2.4b
1G RAM
BFG 6800 GT OC

 

[Lord of Shadows]

There will always be an api to utilize the hardware, as for the programmable part of things, before nvidia decided to take control of things with features like hardware T&L, the cpu had control of all vertex/pixel information, just it didnt do a good job.

 

[Ardrid]

hey guys, i work at Fry's electronics in Burbank, CA.
We got about 2-3boxes as of today, which translates into about 10 cards.
I just finished setting up a deal with aphex, hes building his new puter as we speak and wanted the

BFG 6800GT OC.

we have it for 399.99 + tax.
Worked it out with aphex and were talking about 450 shipped.
if anyones interested we do have a few more on hand.

If you've got some more, consider me interested.

 

[Dijonase]

Well, I'm now convinced. I've been considering selling off my X800 Pro for the last week or so, but now I've decided for sure. I just put an order in for an eVGA 6800GT and I plan to put my X800 Pro up on ebay this evening. Any takers?

 

[HRslammR]

wow. that's got to be a record for fastest replies for a topic ever.

i wish we had seen more of the 9800xt and 5950 benches. naaamely 1280x1024 with full blast detail and no AA and AF. what with my 9800 pro i'm prooobably going to have to overclock to XT speeds.

 

[theNoid]

Basically when all is said and done...

Both Nvidia and ATi high end cards will run Doom 3 good. However, there is no doubt that Nvidia is just owning ATi right now. I do find it really entertaining reading some of the arguements and justifications ATi fanboys are making. Ok so you spent $500 for a card that under performs a $400 card ... tuff, deal with it, the game will still run ok, but not as good as the Nvidia ones.

People can argue this and that about how 20fps doesn't make a difference, but this is [H]ardforums, not PLAY GAMES YAAAAAY FORUMS. As [H] people we demand the best perfomance, hardware, fps, bechmarks... getting butt hurt and making up excuses is just silly. You bought the wrong card, period.

The benchmarks speak for themselves. iD did a very professional job of doing those benchmarks and [H]ardOcp did a great job of reporting the results. What you see is what you get ... STOP BITCHING and trying to justify your card that doesn't perform as well as your rival.

People say.. its just ONE game. Yes it is, however its the most anticipated PC game of all time. Kind of important to not choke on that one, ya know ? Include the fact that several new games WILL be created from the D3 engine and be using OpenGL, its not hard to come to the conclusion ATi lost this round. Maybe they will come out with some optimized OpenGL drivers to 'help' a bit, but its too late.

I don't see anypoint even arguing the benchmarks... they are proof enough.

 

[Sharpe]

We want to start out with our high end system that was supplied by Dell. It utilized a 3.6GHz Pentium 4 processor and 4GB of 533MHz DDR2 Ram on an Intel i925X motherboard. The video cards used of course were all PCI-Express interface video cards all with 256MB of video Ram. NVIDIA's v61.76 driver and ATI's v8.05 driver was used for testing.

Too bad they didn't have an SLI setup. I would have liked to have seen that 4GB system running on a Tumwater-based server board (only dual PCI-X board that I know of) with dual GeForce 6800Ultras. Imagine... 4GB RAM, dual Xeons, dual GeForce 6800Ultras... *drool* ...Water cooling all around... *spooge*

Sorry if someone said this earlier. I got to about page 25 out of 30+ before I quit reading.

 

[Jonsey]

Dude you remind me of the wendy's "unofficial spokesman"

Whenever I see Burninggrave101's post in the Video card forum I think, "Are you with nvidia?"

"Well, not officially."

The single minded dedication some people have is simply mind-boggling to me.

BTW, nice review, [H]. Best hardware site out there for sure.

 

[theelviscerator]

Basically when all is said and done...

Both Nvidia and ATi high end cards will run Doom 3 good. However, there is no doubt that Nvidia is just owning ATi right now. I do find it really entertaining reading some of the arguements and justifications ATi fanboys are making. Ok so you spent $500 for a card that under performs a $400 card ... tuff, deal with it, the game will still run ok, but not as good as the Nvidia ones.

People can argue this and that about how 20fps doesn't make a difference, but this is [H]ardforums, not PLAY GAMES YAAAAAY FORUMS. As [H] people we demand the best perfomance, hardware, fps, bechmarks... getting butt hurt and making up excuses is just silly. You bought the wrong card, period.

The benchmarks speak for themselves. iD did a very professional job of doing those benchmarks and [H]ardOcp did a great job of reporting the results. What you see is what you get ... STOP BITCHING and trying to justify your card that doesn't perform as well as your rival.

People say.. its just ONE game. Yes it is, however its the most anticipated PC game of all time. Kind of important to not choke on that one, ya know ? Include the fact that several new games WILL be created from the D3 engine and be using OpenGL, its not hard to come to the conclusion ATi lost this round. Maybe they will come out with some optimized OpenGL drivers to 'help' a bit, but its too late.

I don't see anypoint even arguing the benchmarks... they are proof enough.

thats funny coming from a guy with mushkin ram and a shuttle mobo....