HyperX Heatspreader TIMs (insulators?)

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arDAWG

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After reading info as to how the TIMs on the HyperX sticks suk (@ XSForums), my bro Weap & I checked them out (on my 2 sticks of khx3000 aka bh5). After pulling the heatspreaders on the 1st module I realized that the material Kingston uses really is of concern. It's a thick grayish rubber-like material w/ net/ cheesecloth fabric contained w/in. We both concluded the thermal transfer properties of this stuff would be far from ideal---prolly more of an insulation effect. I don't understand why Kingston did not use standard frag tape, as it would surely be superior to this crap... :mad:
Note, that by pulling these off the warranty will be voided (not a major concern for me). Furthermore I gained a few mhz oc by pulling these "heat-trappers" off. I know the entire concept of heatspreaders serving any purpose is debated but Kingston might as well have used Thinsulate for the TIMs vs. this stuff!!!
 

specialk

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Originally posted by arDAWG
We both concluded the thermal transfer properties of this stuff would be far from ideal---prolly more of an insulation effect. I don't understand why Kingston did not use standard frag tape, as it would surely be superior to this crap... :mad:
Maybe because Heatspreaders have no effect on performance with DDRAM? The fact is that the way data is transfered to DDRAM, all of the chips recieve a small portion of the data, making the heat output negligible. The only real need for heatspeaders is for RDRAM. Any "performance-gain" that one feels that they get with heatspreaders is most likely a form of placebo effect along with the circumstances of the testing. In other words, the thermal transfer tape does not matter for that RAM. It's just there for aesthetic reasons.

-special [k]
 

GameFreak

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Originally posted by specialk
Maybe because Heatspreaders have no effect on performance with DDRAM? The fact is that the way data is transfered to DDRAM, all of the chips recieve a small portion of the data, making the heat output negligible. The only real need for heatspeaders is for RDRAM. Any "performance-gain" that one feels that they get with heatspreaders is most likely a form of placebo effect along with the circumstances of the testing. In other words, the thermal transfer tape does not matter for that RAM. It's just there for aesthetic reasons.

-special [k]
yep, but by putting an insulation like material they compound the problem of heat. Although heat isn't a big deal with or without a heatspreader, it can have an effect if that heatspreader has an insulating TIM.

so...it does make a difference however small.
 

md262626

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Originally posted by arDAWG
After reading info as to how the TIMs on the HyperX sticks suk (@ XSForums), my bro Weap & I checked them out (on my 2 sticks of khx3000 aka bh5). After pulling the heatspreaders on the 1st module I realized that the material Kingston uses really is of concern. It's a thick grayish rubber-like material w/ net/ cheesecloth fabric contained w/in. We both concluded the thermal transfer properties of this stuff would be far from ideal---prolly more of an insulation effect. I don't understand why Kingston did not use standard frag tape, as it would surely be superior to this crap... :mad:
Note, that by pulling these off the warranty will be voided (not a major concern for me). Furthermore I gained a few mhz oc by pulling these "heat-trappers" off. I know the entire concept of heatspreaders serving any purpose is debated but Kingston might as well have used Thinsulate for the TIMs vs. this stuff!!!
First I must ask you what credentials XSForums has? Second I must ask what credentials you and Weap have? How many classes in Thermodynamics and Advanced Materials Properties have the two of you had to be qualified to determine that the material in qustions thermal transfer properties are far from ideal? Heat trappers? How did you come to this conclusion? In my experience, Kingston makes very good memory modules. I think you would have to conclude they know what they're doing or you wouldn't have bought their product in the first place. I doubt Kingston would use a "heat trapper" as you call it simply based on the fact that would make their memory less not more reliable. I can assure you of this with about as much certainty as you used in coming to your conclusion.............................Kingston is not about to use a material that will cause their product to fail more often so they can increase warranty replacement. Know what I mean?
 

arDAWG

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I have no degree in thermodynamic engineering, but I would guess that thick arse rubbery stuff w/ a mesh fabric would be far from conducive to thermal transfer. Notice I did not say nor claim that Kingston modules are bad, just that their TIM would appear to be far from ideal. I have to agree that under default voltages ddr does not produce heat---but I run 3V+ to my sticks & have had some problems w/ memory errors that have not reappeared since I removed the heatspreaders/ TIMs. My credentials only apply to what I've learned here and @ other forums & I feel there are some damn good oc'ers over @ XSForums... The problem in making any determination as to what effect this TIM does or does not have is actually measuring the temp w/ the heatspreader in place vs. measuring w/ it removed (i.e., the placement of the probe w/ the heatspreader in place would surely yield questionable readings). Dan (from Dan's Data fame) calls the heatspreaders "computer tinsel." If they do indeed hold heat in & actually hinder oc'ing, then they're worse than that. My only proof is that (w/ a day and 1/2 of testing w/ Prime95, MemTest86, etc) I have been able to run @ an fsb previously unobtainable w/ these sticks since removing the heatspreaders. While far from conclusive it, @ least, suggests that heat was being trapped w/in. I have not done the VDIMM mod on the AN35N Ultra (which I'm currently running these BH-5's on) so 2.7V is my max now.
I don't claim to be an expert but my 1800 T'Bred is running 2.3ghz @ 1.75V w/ no mods to this board. Not bad for my 2nd system & a $48 cpu, IMO. As to Weapon's credentials, well he's designed his own homebrewed vapor phase change setup, his own rads (w/ shroud) & his own waterblocks (cpu, chipset & gpu). His abilities go far beyond mine. I trust his observations regarding the TIMs... Which leads me to ask, just what are your creds other than clocking a Barton to an average oc??? :p
Furthermore, the argument that just b/c Kingston puts this gunk on their ddr thus it's great stuff is ludicrous. If manufacturers got it right every time, then what would be the point of modding to begin w/??? Have you never came across a poorly designed motherboard or a heatsink that needed a good lapping??? Anywayz, I'm not suggesting anyone else pull off their heatspreaders, hence the caveat emptor in by original post. Just an interesting observation/ opinion...take it or leave it... ;)
 

weapon--

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Originally posted by md262626
First I must ask you what credentials XSForums has? Second I must ask what credentials you and Weap have? How many classes in Thermodynamics and Advanced Materials Properties have the two of you had to be qualified to determine that the material in qustions thermal transfer properties are far from ideal? Heat trappers? How did you come to this conclusion? In my experience, Kingston makes very good memory modules. I think you would have to conclude they know what they're doing or you wouldn't have bought their product in the first place. I doubt Kingston would use a "heat trapper" as you call it simply based on the fact that would make their memory less not more reliable. I can assure you of this with about as much certainty as you used in coming to your conclusion.............................Kingston is not about to use a material that will cause their product to fail more often so they can increase warranty replacement. Know what I mean?
credentials?
hmmmmmm.....I'll start with:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=700169

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=706562

I am fairly certain that I know hot from cold and warm from cool. ;)

If you have ever taken a pair of heatspreaders off of memory like those used on the HyperX, you know that they have a hinge type hook on each side of the heatspreader - one hook is on one side that matches up with a slot on the other side. each side has one hook and one slot so they interlock. So, when you pull them off, you have to get one side loose and then go to work on the other.

Anyway, the usual method for getting thermal interface like this nice and soft so you can pull it off without damaging the mem chips is by warming it up with a hot air gun and then pulling the sinks off. So how do you heat up the metal to soften the thermal interface material on the second side without burning your fingers while dealing with the locking mechanism? With these heatspreaders, it is easy, you just grab it on the side coated with the craptacular thermal interface material because despite the fact the aluminum on the heatspreader is nice and hot, the thermal interface material is barely even warm to the touch.

insulator = a material that insulates, especially a nonconductor of sound, heat, or electricity.

Hot metal on one side -- cool fingers on the other. Why? Because the material in between the hot metal and the cool finger tips is acting as an insulator.

I suppose a fluke temp meter or the like is the way to measure the actual thermoconductivity of the TIM as it allows reading the temps of both sides simultaneously...but I don't really need to know the .00001 difference between the two sides when it is obvious just by touching both sides with the tips of my fingers.

Mem OCing before removal of the blue heatlockers was not as good as the results achieved after they were removed...all benches were better after removal for that matter. At stock speeds, it might not make a damn bit of difference but when you crank the voltage up to nice, heavily-OCable levels, the proof is in the results.

I am going to check out the heatspreaders on some other types of memory as I have found at least one other brand that might be using this material...I might even take the digital temp gauge along for the fun of it. :D

side note: the HyperX we used was a few months old -- hopefully, kinston has switched to something better.
 

zer0signal667

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The thick, foam-like stuff is used when there might be uneven contact between the heat source and the heatsink. In this case, some of the chips might not be exactly level, so using a thin tape or a paste would pretty much do nothing to transfer heat from the "lower" chips to the heatsink. The same thing is used for hard drive cooling, some places sell waterblocks that attach to the PCB side of the drive, which is very uneven and must be filled with a foam or gel substance.

And what makes you so sure that this stuff is any worse than thermal tape? Or that the heatspreaders themselves are acting more as insulators than heatsinks or dissipators?
 

weapon--

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Originally posted by zer0signal667
The thick, foam-like stuff is used when there might be uneven contact between the heat source and the heatsink. In this case, some of the chips might not be exactly level, so using a thin tape or a paste would pretty much do nothing to transfer heat from the "lower" chips to the heatsink. The same thing is used for hard drive cooling, some places sell waterblocks that attach to the PCB side of the drive, which is very uneven and must be filled with a foam or gel substance.
yep - I realize the reason they use it -- but if this is the best TIM that can be used then I think the heatspreader design like that on the hyperX should probably be traded out in favor of individual sinks for each chip (like the ones from cooler master or several other companies) if anything is going to be used on the chips at all.

And what makes you so sure that this stuff is any worse than thermal tape? Or that the heatspreaders themselves are acting more as insulators than heatsinks or dissipators? [/B]
As for thermal tape, I will get some and test it next to this stuff to see how it performs. The temp gauge with some side-by-side action should be interesting. The particular frag tape will likely make a big difference here but I'll just use the run of the mill stuff unless I can dig up some chromerics which I'll add in if I can find any leftover in my cooling stuff.

I doubt the problem is the actual heatspreader - they appear to be made from decent quality aluminum. with the TIM removed, they transfer heat from one end to the other nicely. I suppose the best way to test this would be to attach a thermister to the heatspreader before and after removal of the TIM and see how it effects the temps of the aluminum.

Of course, max OC results have to count for something unless memory has suddenly shifted its preference and now actually likes heat... ;)
 

md262626

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Originally posted by arDAWG
I have no degree in thermodynamic engineering, but I would guess that thick arse rubbery stuff w/ a mesh fabric would be far from conducive to thermal transfer. Notice I did not say nor claim that Kingston modules are bad, just that their TIM would appear to be far from ideal. I have to agree that under default voltages ddr does not produce heat---but I run 3V+ to my sticks & have had some problems w/ memory errors that have not reappeared since I removed the heatspreaders/ TIMs. My credentials only apply to what I've learned here and @ other forums & I feel there are some damn good oc'ers over @ XSForums... The problem in making any determination as to what effect this TIM does or does not have is actually measuring the temp w/ the heatspreader in place vs. measuring w/ it removed (i.e., the placement of the probe w/ the heatspreader in place would surely yield questionable readings). Dan (from Dan's Data fame) calls the heatspreaders "computer tinsel." If they do indeed hold heat in & actually hinder oc'ing, then they're worse than that. My only proof is that (w/ a day and 1/2 of testing w/ Prime95, MemTest86, etc) I have been able to run @ an fsb previously unobtainable w/ these sticks since removing the heatspreaders. While far from conclusive it, @ least, suggests that heat was being trapped w/in. I have not done the VDIMM mod on the AN35N Ultra (which I'm currently running these BH-5's on) so 2.7V is my max now.
I don't claim to be an expert but my 1800 T'Bred is running 2.3ghz @ 1.75V w/ no mods to this board. Not bad for my 2nd system & a $48 cpu, IMO. As to Weapon's credentials, well he's designed his own homebrewed vapor phase change setup, his own rads (w/ shroud) & his own waterblocks (cpu, chipset & gpu). His abilities go far beyond mine. I trust his observations regarding the TIMs... Which leads me to ask, just what are your creds other than clocking a Barton to an average oc??? :p
Furthermore, the argument that just b/c Kingston puts this gunk on their ddr thus it's great stuff is ludicrous. If manufacturers got it right every time, then what would be the point of modding to begin w/??? Have you never came across a poorly designed motherboard or a heatsink that needed a good lapping??? Anywayz, I'm not suggesting anyone else pull off their heatspreaders, hence the caveat emptor in by original post. Just an interesting observation/ opinion...take it or leave it... ;)

Eww you seem a little defensive there. First off don't take this personal cuz it's not. My questions to you were valid and I got the answers I expected. Neither of you are qualified to make the determinations you made. You're both backyard builders like myself. I do have a Mechanical Engineering degree and did have to take thermodynamic classes in college. I have 25 years experience as an engineer who has had to solve problems with dissipating heat in the context of manufacturing equipment. I've developed solutions for curing adhesives using infrared heat thermo cycling elements, dc servo motor cooling, and most recently designing an active coooing solution for PLC's in a manufacturing environment. Does this make me qualified to make the sort of assertions you did? Absolutely not! You see, what your not factoring in is the work that the Kingston engineers did prior to even coming up with the TIM in the first place. Do you really think that the Kingston engineers sat around a conference table and said as a group "how can we come up with a TIM to use on our memory modules that will themally stress them?" Probably not. Like I said in my earlier post, It's in Kingston's best interest to make their memory run on the low end of their thermal specification to lower RMA's because of thermal failure. I hope you're objective enough to know I'm right on this. Understand too that if you're pumping 3.0 volts through your DDR that you are working outside of the voltage speification put forth by WINDBOND on the BH-5 . It may not be that the TIM used by Kingston is bad, it's just you're asking it to do more than it was designed to do. That hardly, however, makes it a heat trap!
 

md262626

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Originally posted by weapon--
credentials?
hmmmmmm.....I'll start with:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=700169

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=706562I suppose a fluke temp meter or the like is the way to measure the actual thermoconductivity of the TIM as it allows reading the temps of both sides simultaneously
I
Partner, using a Fluke thermometer such as the 50 series will tell you nothing about the thermoconductivity properties of the TIM. It will however inform you of their temperature at given levels of applied heat.
 

kronchev

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Originally posted by md262626
Partner, using a Fluke thermometer such as the 50 series will tell you nothing about the thermoconductivity properties of the TIM. It will however inform you of their temperature at given levels of applied heat.
and throwing together a few sheets of copper and saying "I KNOW WHAT IM DOING" doesnt mean you really do...
 

arDAWG

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Well this entire argument is somewhat ridiculous....very few here have creds, as you suggest & I can/ could suggest that I'm a nuclear physicist & it means jack (not that I am...but the whole "arguing on the internet/ special olympics" thing comes to mind.
by kronchev
and throwing together a few sheets of copper and saying "I KNOW WHAT IM DOING" doesnt mean you really do...
I can see how you got ur post count...I don't see u doing it...:D
 

md262626

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If me posting stopped one forum member from listening to your bad advice and ruining their warranty it was worth your childish remarks:D
 

weapon--

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back on topic...

This is an overclocking forum and the last time I checked, Hyper X was marketed as overclocking DDR. Unless kingston is somewhat oblivious to the usual methods used to OC memory (which I doubt) I would expect the TIM they used in their heatspreaders to work better at higher voltage as opposed to doing the opposite. As far as the properties of the winbond chips and what the factory suggests for their operational range...I think we are back to the definition of overclocking and the idea of running things beyond rated spec...

temps at either side mean nothing about thermal conduction?
Thermal conductivity is the quantity of heat that passes in unit time through unit area of a plate whose thickness is unity, when its opposite faces differ in temperature by one degree.
And I think you misunderstood how I planned to proceed with this (although that is likely my fault as I gave a very brief and admittedly vague description of the plan as I wasn't intending to submit the last post for scientific publication. ;) )

since I don't have a netzsch hfm 436 or an HP data acquisition unit wired up to some YSI precision thermisters handy (damn the bad luck), the fluke came to mind as it can take multiple readouts from different locations and that was the only thing I have nearby that might be of any use. anyway, I already have a device set up to produce a specific heatload based on the amount of juice I run to it thru an adjustable lambda power supply (as these come in handy when tuning backyard phase change devices). So, by sticking the thermisters from the fluke at different positions on a length of the TIM (being the usual thickness used for the heatspreaders), I planned to periodically zap the TIM with a set heatload at a fixed interval then record the readings from the thermisters over a few repeated cycles...i.e. the fluctuations in temp as a function of time measured by the two thermisters - a comparison in the differences of the heat/temp waves should lead to the the themal conductivity value for the TIM....provided this crap transfers any heat whatsoever. If that was cloudy, my apologies...I just woke up from a combat nap and all the synapses are not quite firing yet.

Like I said, that was the plan....then I realized something...the memory OC'ed better with the damn things off...to h311 with figuring out the thermoconductivity of the TIM as I don't really care beyond the point that they were doing something incompatible with pushing the chips thereunder to the level that we wanted to push them. so, off they go and straight into the box of other parts that hindered higher OCing....better known as the trash can (may they be comforted by the other aluminum items that were no longer required for further overclocking, sometimes referred to as empty beer cans).

Originally posted by kronchev
and throwing together a few sheets of copper and saying "I KNOW WHAT IM DOING" doesnt mean you really do...
errrrrrrr...the 'throwing together' part does not quite capture it. There is a lot more to building a hella effective waterblock or evaporator than just throwing together copper plates (or brazing together so they will take 40,000 psi for that matter).

voiding warranties??? :eek:
holy h311! when did we start worrying about voiding warranties????? Pulling the damn things off resulted in a higher attainable OC of the memory when all other elements in the system remained the same. Has anyone that responded to this thread bothered to try it? Several experienced OCers who have gotten rid of the TIM used on these heatspreaders have reported higher attainable OCs with the same DDR. I usually don't log into this forum with the idea of lauching a theoretical debate on thermodynamics nor do I really care to (unless it is fundamentally essential to getting my front side bus a few mhz higher...) If anyone else tries removing the heatspreaders, please post your results. If you just want to set here and continue yipping about fricken theory and testing methods, go thread-crap elsewhere...or start a nice thread on thermodynamics and see how many hits it gets just for shits and giggles...

Higher stable OCs are what I am primarily after...go do the math if you want to, I'm getting back to cranking up the fsb. :)
 

md262626

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Originally posted by weapon--
back on topic...

This is an overclocking forum and the last time I checked, Hyper X was marketed as overclocking DDR. Unless kingston is somewhat oblivious to the usual methods used to OC memory (which I doubt) I would expect the TIM they used in their heatspreaders to work better at higher voltage as opposed to doing the opposite. As far as the properties of the winbond chips and what the factory suggests for their operational range...I think we are back to the definition of overclocking and the idea of running things beyond rated spec...

temps at either side mean nothing about thermal conduction?
Thermal conductivity is the quantity of heat that passes in unit time through unit area of a plate whose thickness is unity, when its opposite faces differ in temperature by one degree.
And I think you misunderstood how I planned to proceed with this (although that is likely my fault as I gave a very brief and admittedly vague description of the plan as I wasn't intending to submit the last post for scientific publication. ;) )

since I don't have a netzsch hfm 436 or an HP data acquisition unit wired up to some YSI precision thermisters handy (damn the bad luck), the fluke came to mind as it can take multiple readouts from different locations and that was the only thing I have nearby that might be of any use. anyway, I already have a device set up to produce a specific heatload based on the amount of juice I run to it thru an adjustable lambda power supply (as these come in handy when tuning backyard phase change devices). So, by sticking the thermisters from the fluke at different positions on a length of the TIM (being the usual thickness used for the heatspreaders), I planned to periodically zap the TIM with a set heatload at a fixed interval then record the readings from the thermisters over a few repeated cycles...i.e. the fluctuations in temp as a function of time measured by the two thermisters - a comparison in the differences of the heat/temp waves should lead to the the themal conductivity value for the TIM....provided this crap transfers any heat whatsoever. If that was cloudy, my apologies...I just woke up from a combat nap and all the synapses are not quite firing yet.

Like I said, that was the plan....then I realized something...the memory OC'ed better with the damn things off...to h311 with figuring out the thermoconductivity of the TIM as I don't really care beyond the point that they were doing something incompatible with pushing the chips thereunder to the level that we wanted to push them. so, off they go and straight into the box of other parts that hindered higher OCing....better known as the trash can (may they be comforted by the other aluminum items that were no longer required for further overclocking, sometimes referred to as empty beer cans).



errrrrrrr...the 'throwing together' part does not quite capture it. There is a lot more to building a hella effective waterblock or evaporator than just throwing together copper plates (or brazing together so they will take 40,000 psi for that matter).

voiding warranties??? :eek:
holy h311! when did we start worrying about voiding warranties????? Pulling the damn things off resulted in a higher attainable OC of the memory when all other elements in the system remained the same. Has anyone that responded to this thread bothered to try it? Several experienced OCers who have gotten rid of the TIM used on these heatspreaders have reported higher attainable OCs with the same DDR. I usually don't log into this forum with the idea of lauching a theoretical debate on thermodynamics nor do I really care to (unless it is fundamentally essential to getting my front side bus a few mhz higher...) If anyone else tries removing the heatspreaders, please post your results. If you just want to set here and continue yipping about fricken theory and testing methods, go thread-crap elsewhere...or start a nice thread on thermodynamics and see how many hits it gets just for shits and giggles...

Higher stable OCs are what I am primarily after...go do the math if you want to, I'm getting back to cranking up the fsb. :)


:rolleyes: Aren't we the hotshot.........NOT LOL:D
 

weapon--

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Originally posted by md262626
:rolleyes: Aren't we the hotshot.........NOT LOL:D
rofl.

you began this by questioning credentials as opposed to producing even a scintilla of evidence that the heatspreaders are doing anything positive for the performance of the memory (despite the fact that several experienced OCers have discovered that removing them seems to improve OCing performance). The basis for your argument thus far has been either an attack on our credentials (rofl...where do you get a degree in overclocking again?) or that surely kingston would have used good material....blind faith anyone? Now we are down just another form of personal attack -- no surprises here considering the blatant fallacies in your approach thus far.

As of yet, you have neither offered test results or even a hint of trying this yourself to see if it allows for higher memory speeds nor have you referenced another thread or anyone's experiences with removing the heatspreaders that might have produced less stable results than with the heatspreaders in place. Your argument is steadily moving you into the territory of kingston fanboy.

Regarding the hotshot remark, o' blind defender of HyperX TIM...if I could not get a barton 2500 past 2.2ghz -- I would not be throwning copper based, thin aluminum helicoid pinned heatsinks in glass houses. :p
 

arDAWG

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I obviously made a mistake posting here again...I actually thought it might have changed w/ the new anti-flaming policy, etc. Whereas I used to enjoy this type of tomfoolery, I've grown bored of it & enjoy actually discussing issues w/out coming under attack. I did not say to do this---you can do as you please. As to the warranty, as I stated, I do not care. I pump more volts to the modules than rated, hence if they fry I'll eat them (i.e., it's unethical, IMHO, to RMA parts that I ran outta spec).
Speaking of that:
It may not be that the TIM used by Kingston is bad, it's just you're asking it to do more than it was designed to do. That hardly, however, makes it a heat trap!
I believe you have given a decent definition of overclocking therein...which is what I'm interested in. This is why I VMod mobos/ vidcards, watercool, use Artic Silver vs. the crappy gooey TIM that comes w/ many sinks (or silicon Thermal Paste) and replace the stock hsf & lap the northy on my NF2 boards. That's where I'm coming from and if I can squeeze a few extra mhz outta my ddr, I'm all about it. If I offended your conventional wisdom or violated your sacred cow by suggesting removing the TIM/ heatspreaders I apologize. I can proffer that 2 manufacturers of damn good Bh-5 sticks, Twinmos & the bargain priced Buffalo sticks, offer no heatspreaders @ all & seem to perform rather well, from my experience. Kingston memory is not so spectacular other than good implementon of Winbond chips (which Corsair, Mushkin, OCZ, Twinmos, et al do fine as well). Since I am only a "backyard builder" w/ no credibility I guess my opionion counts for nothing...;) Once again I would guess you have defined 90 some odd percent of the ppl herein (this forum)...
I only suggest this b/c some wish to push the envelope of performance (warranty be damned)---after all this site is supposed to be [H]ard!!! This means sometimes challenging the status quo or going beyond the cookie cutter systems/ oc's which are commonplace now. If you wanna be @ the top of the ORB, VRZone's OC database &/or @ or near the top of Hexus' pifast challenge sometimes you havta break some eggs...otherwise you only appear to be rather [F]laccid... ;)
 

md262626

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Interesting timing. [Hard]ocp lists this review today regarding Kingston PC4000 memory. The reviewer even thinks Kingston's heatsinks do a good job removing heat from the memory:

http://www.1sweetpc.com/reviews/memory/hyperx.php


Looks like I'm not the only one. Here's a newsflash for you as well. Don't take people disagreeing with you as getting flamed.
I don't know you, why do you give yourself enough credit to be able to predict my motivation for commenting on your post. That's rather arrogant don't you think? I simply found your post to contain in my judgement some flawed thinking. Notice I said in my judgement. I don't pretend to be an authority on anything. Just a fellow [H]ard forum member like yourself.
 

md262626

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Interesting timing. [Hard]ocp lists this review today regarding Kingston PC4000 memory. The reviewer even thinks Kingston's heatsinks do a good job removing heat from the memory:

http://www.1sweetpc.com/reviews/memory/hyperx.php


Looks like I'm not the only one. Here's a newsflash for you as well. Don't take people disagreeing with you as getting flamed.
I don't know you, why do you give yourself enough credit to be able to predict my motivation for commenting on your post. That's rather arrogant don't you think? I simply found your post to contain in my judgement some flawed thinking. Notice I said in my judgement. I don't pretend to be an authority on anything. Just a fellow [H]ard forum member like yourself.
 

weapon--

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Originally posted by md262626
Interesting timing. [Hard]ocp lists this review today regarding Kingston PC4000 memory. The reviewer even thinks Kingston's heatsinks do a good job removing heat from the memory:

http://www.1sweetpc.com/reviews/memory/hyperx.php


Looks like I'm not the only one. Here's a newsflash for you as well. Don't take people disagreeing with you as getting flamed.
I don't know you, why do you give yourself enough credit to be able to predict my motivation for commenting on your post. That's rather arrogant don't you think? I simply found your post to contain in my judgement some flawed thinking. Notice I said in my judgement. I don't pretend to be an authority on anything. Just a fellow [H]ard forum member like yourself.
the heatspreader does a good job as opposed to what? He just said that he thought it was doing a good job - there is absolutely nothing in that review about removing the heatspreaders to see how they run without it, testing the heatspreaders with a different TIM or testing other cooling solutions against the factory-stock heatspreader. In comparison, the before and after testing we did (as well as that done by others) runs the memory with the heatspreaders against the same memory without the heatspreaders...and gets better results without 'em.

Without the heatspreaders, that ram might have ran nicely at CL222 instead of the CL333 it runs at from the factory. :D

If you want to demonstrate that the factory heatspreaders are doing something positive for heat dissipation or OCing results, dig up something showing the memory can OC higher with the spreaders and the factory TIM on there than it can without them.
 

2fas4u

n00b
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Messages
1
Originally posted by md262626
Interesting timing. [Hard]ocp lists this review today regarding Kingston PC4000 memory. The reviewer even thinks Kingston's heatsinks do a good job removing heat from the memory:

http://www.1sweetpc.com/reviews/memory/hyperx.php


Looks like I'm not the only one. Here's a newsflash for you as well. Don't take people disagreeing with you as getting flamed.
I don't know you, why do you give yourself enough credit to be able to predict my motivation for commenting on your post. That's rather arrogant don't you think? I simply found your post to contain in my judgement some flawed thinking. Notice I said in my judgement. I don't pretend to be an authority on anything. Just a fellow [H]ard forum member like yourself.
You are calling him arrogant? All you have done in this thread is say"I'm right and your wrong" the whole time! Who died and made you the "Overclocking God"? If you are right then put up some facts to prove it or just shut up! Oh, by the way I don't care if you ban me as I only came here to stand up for one of my Xtreme brothers!!!!! I'll go back to Xtreme now where we treat others as human biengs, not as idiots who we can flame cuase we feel like it.
 

md262626

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 8, 2003
Messages
1,259
I'd try but it's just not worth my time as I'm satisfied with my current o/c and rock stability using my current Kingston memory with stock TIM. You see, your problem is you can't take someone disagreeing with you (particularly if they have a valid point), and that's too bad for you. It's a free country and if you think you can shred your warranty to eek the last 1 mhz out of your DDR please feel free to do so. That's your choice. Mine is to leave well enough alone, retain my lifetime warranty and freely state my opinion. This will be my last post cuz this feels like a circle jerk. I think you need to get over it or maybe start a forum where you can post your own thread and no one can reply. That way no one can have a difference of opinion with you.......BEAUTIFUL!:rolleyes:
 

fugu

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 2, 2000
Messages
10,668
temperature results would be great. i've never been a big fan of memory heatspreaders, and it's nice to see someone doing a comparison... when they initially appeared on the geforce 2 cards it was done more for the sake of marketing than actual performance.

one of the reasons that they might be using a TIM with a single heatspreader unit is that it's probably a lot easier to manufacture than using epoxy + individual sinks. also, people expect ramsinks on overclocking memory these days. if they didn't include a spreader, people would probably complain and call them cheap, regardless of the actual effectiveness of the spreader
 

snowwie

Gawd
Joined
Aug 6, 2002
Messages
881
it has been admitted by the enthusiast memory companies that heatplates are added to their ram not to cool them, but for many other reasons. First, marketing. Lay people are just simply more likely to buy a dimm with a cool blue heatspreader than one with nothing. Second, fewer RMAs. No static shocks, no caps chipped off. The stick is less likely to be physically damaged with a heatplate on. The ram that is usually installed by the end user is usually "enthusiast" or "overclocker" products. The ram companies just found it more profitable to add heatplates, on their enthusiast lines, even if they have to mark up the prices a little bit.

No ddr memory needs a heatsink of any sort. Those extreme overclockers who run their ddr @ 550MHz, 2-2-2-5, 3.6v, dual channel don't have heatspreaders on their ram. They do have a fan on them though.

I took the heatplates off my corsair xms3200c2 a short while ago, when I realized I didn't care about my warranty anymore, esp. now that if I had my sticks RMA'd I'd get CH-6 instead of my precious BH-6

anyway, I am willing to bet you a lot of money that the TIM on hyperx dimms have a better thermal conductivity than air. But then again, I suppose if you have a fan actively cooling them, all bets are off.
 

weapon--

Gawd
Joined
May 29, 2001
Messages
964
Originally posted by md262626
I'd try but it's just not worth my time as I'm satisfied with my current o/c and rock stability using my current Kingston memory with stock TIM. You see, your problem is you can't take someone disagreeing with you (particularly if they have a valid point), and that's too bad for you. It's a free country and if you think you can shred your warranty to eek the last 1 mhz out of your DDR please feel free to do so. That's your choice. Mine is to leave well enough alone, retain my lifetime warranty and freely state my opinion. This will be my last post cuz this feels like a circle jerk. I think you need to get over it or maybe start a forum where you can post your own thread and no one can reply. That way no one can have a difference of opinion with you.......BEAUTIFUL!:rolleyes:
lol.

I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing with me provided they have a valid point and they have done some testing (or can at least link to someone else's testing) to demonstrate what they are saying. You have done nothing other than try to shoot down our results based on some idea you apparently pulled out of yer @$$ as I have asked for any comparisons between the memory with and without heatspreaders that would show that there might be a possibility that you are correct and you have done nothing other than resort to personal attacks (which is what most do when they have no fricken proof of what they are saying). Your greatest concern seems to be maintaining your factory warranty. I will fight back the urge to fall on the floor and LMAO as factory warranties have no place in a overclocker's box unless it is on a damn CD Rom or some other device that cannot benefit from modding and extreme cooling tactics.

To maintain the warranty on most of the components in any of my systems I would have to rule out subzero cooling, forget about voltage mods and stick to some factory determined BS baseline status quo level of performance (and give up one helluva lot of performance in the process). The last time I checked, we were in this forum to talk about overclocking. To get the highest stable OC, you have to use some methods that void warranties (as if any hardcore overclocker gave a shat about them in the first place). If there were a "how to maintain your factory warranty" section in these forums, I would direct you to it but apparently someone has wisely determined that has no place here.
As such, I will provide a link to the next best thing:
http://www.dell.com
next time d00d, buy a dell. :)
seems like they get that computer shopper award for their warranty just about every year...

back to the topic at hand.
I just eyeballed some other memory that appears to have the same TIM lurking under the pretty copper heatspreaders. It has of course been targeted for removal :) This DDR is currently capable of running at least 230mhz in sync 6:6 on an nf7 rev 1.2 with fairly tight timings....so it should be able to to a little better than that without the factory spreaders. I have another system I am putting together that will be used for comparison with the results we got on the dawg's system but it might be a few days before I get back to it as I have to finish the voltage mods and wait for conformal coating to dry (oops...there goes a warranty or two) -- this mobo gets to play lab rat in the latest garage-built phase change system. :D

If I can figure out a way to do it without fuXoring the readings, I will try to get temps on the chips, the inside of the TIM, the area of the TIM between the outer side of the TIM and the heatspreader, the inside of the heatspreader where it is not in contact with the TIM and the outside of the heatspreader.
Flat thermisters might slip in there without causing too much of a problem. As was already stated, this stuff is very foam-like -- the thickness of a flat thermister on one chip shouldn't throw things off by much as the foam will conform to the thermisters thickness with a little pressure.

When I finally manage to get all the parts gathered up, this will be triple phase change (CPU, GPU & n.bridge)....gotta fill up this damn case somehow:

see the mid tower in the lower left corner of the pic? the power supply for the new system (silver box sitting on top of the cabinet) is not much smaller than the midtower. rofl.

I wonder if phase change cooling can be bolted to DDR somehow... ;)
 

ricjax99

n00b
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Messages
3
Hi,

i picked up on this thread after reading a link at XS, im new here.

Kind of funny. Look at the effort and time the guys put into explaining their point as to what he means. Packed full of info, good points and generally very written and a good informative read.

You then look at the following answers from other members such as:

Originally posted by md262626
:rolleyes: Aren't we the hotshot.........NOT LOL:D
I couldn't believe thats all he had to say :eek: , sounds more like someone who was stuck for an answer :rolleyes: I was sat here chuckling at the sheer childisness of it when it dawned on me... this guy is a "[H]ard|Gawd" or whatever that means, does that mean your a mod, if so its trully shocking. You must be of a certain level of maturity and integrity to moderate other users. :(

As i said im new to these forums so if it just means lots of posts correct me :)

Kind of disapointing my first post is pointing out the level of maturity of some :(

Oh and while im at it md262626, might want to check out the link in my sig if your stuck on the NF7 :)
 

weapon--

Gawd
Joined
May 29, 2001
Messages
964
Originally posted by fugu
one of the reasons that they might be using a TIM with a single heatspreader unit is that it's probably a lot easier to manufacture than using epoxy + individual sinks. also, people expect ramsinks on overclocking memory these days. if they didn't include a spreader, people would probably complain and call them cheap, regardless of the actual effectiveness of the spreader
I suspect you have nailed down a good deal of the makers' rationale -- the heatspreaders have to be much cheaper from a raw materials perspective as well as in actual assembly. the thin aluminum heatspreaders that are on most mem sticks probably have about as much aluminum used to cover one side of the memory as a single mem sink like the alpha pin sinks or the newer microcool sinks have for just one chip. the thermal tape method is also alot faster to slap on and it probably much less expensive than thermally conductive epoxy.

snowwie's point:
fewer RMAs. No static shocks, no caps chipped off. The stick is less likely to be physically damaged with a heatplate on.
this also has a definite ring of truth to it. if you look at the underside of the mem sticks with the spreaders on, you can apply pressure to the sides and the TIM looks like it was almost designed to be more of a cushion than anything else as it will expand and contract with the movement of the aluminum heatspreader...built in shock absorbers. ;)
 

ricjax99

n00b
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Messages
3
"Originally posted by fugu
if they didn't include a spreader, people would probably complain and call them cheap, regardless of the actual effectiveness of the spreader"

Exactly, it also covers up what chips they come with corsair sell XMS3200C2 over here for £57 a 256MB stick, fact is i can pick up CH-6 chipped generic at my local PC world for £25 :rolleyes:

XMS3200C2 often comes with CH6 for those that dont know :)
 

FredGarvin

n00b
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Messages
4
Well first off....hello to all here. I read this forum quite a bit, but haven't posted before. I just happen to be an Engineer as well (22 years experience in Mechanical Design, and Structural Stuff, lots of tooling, hydraulics, troubleshooting, and some thermal stuff) but enough of the credentials. Chances are great that something on the car you're driving, was designed at our company. I don't think that MD was trying to flame you, at least not at first. He's simply asking the same things that any Engineer would ask when presented with data. You should realize that others will ALWAYS question your data regardless. Weapon posted a good response, so what's the problem? :) At least his answers seem solid. I don't see Weapon's or DAWG's work as a childish suggestion at all. This seems like a worthwhile idea to look at. Everbody would pretty much know they were voiding the warranty by altering the chips...right? MD raises a valid point as well: Maybe that heatsink and thermal material is being "stressed out" by Over Clocking and the heat it produces. Kingston does insist that they do NOT recommend overclocking at all. (hee hee, what's the point of Hyper X then?)
It wouldn't be the first time that a good idea (cooling ram) has gone wrong, maybe even to the exact opposite extreme. I'm rather interested in what you guys come up with through further testing of this idea, because I have several pairs of this RAM in computers at home. Neways, I read this forum because there are so many bright modders here. I sure do wish some of you younger modders would get into Engineering, because many of the ideas I see here are really well done, well thought out, and excellent overall (strictly from an Engineering standpoint). It really is great to see this, after the last generation of Engineers. I sure could use some of you here at work. Keep on Modding, and keep on asking questions guys. Later. :)
 

ricjax99

n00b
Joined
Feb 20, 2004
Messages
3
I just thought "Aren't you the hotshot" MD spouted was rather..well pathetic to say the least considering the well explained (imo) answer he gave. I've had the feeling before, its like talking to a brick wall, a brick wall with a mouth and one-liners, nothing more :)

I agree his other response was better, but still displayed arrogance and dissmisall of the guys view and results. Reading on sounds like the guy has a problem with more "hardcore" overclockers, i dunno :confused:

EDIT - Also could someone please clarify what "[h]ard Gawd" means? :confused:
 

Syphon Filter

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
2,597
Originally posted by ricjax99
Hi,

i picked up on this thread after reading a link at XS, im new here.

Kind of funny. Look at the effort and time the guys put into explaining their point as to what he means. Packed full of info, good points and generally very written and a good informative read.

You then look at the following answers from other members such as:



I couldn't believe thats all he had to say :eek: , sounds more like someone who was stuck for an answer :rolleyes: I was sat here chuckling at the sheer childisness of it when it dawned on me... this guy is a "[H]ard|Gawd" or whatever that means, does that mean your a mod, if so its trully shocking. You must be of a certain level of maturity and integrity to moderate other users. :(

As i said im new to these forums so if it just means lots of posts correct me :)

Kind of disapointing my first post is pointing out the level of maturity of some :(

Oh and while im at it md262626, might want to check out the link in my sig if your stuck on the NF7 :)

no i dont think he is a mod, that "[H]ard Gawd thing changes as ur post count goes up...high post count = higher "status" as it were...doesnt mean he has anything important to say...neither does it reflect his mental ability...
 

arDAWG

Gawd
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
642
Thank you...finally we're getting somewhere...;)
Maybe md did not intend it as a flame, but the wording of his intial post showed a lack of respect IMO:
Orginally posted by md262626
First I must ask you what credentials XSForums has? Second I must ask what credentials you and Weap have? How many classes in Thermodynamics and Advanced Materials Properties have the two of you had to be qualified to determine that the material in qustions thermal transfer properties are far from ideal? Heat trappers? How did you come to this conclusion? In my experience, Kingston makes very good memory modules. I think you would have to conclude they know what they're doing or you wouldn't have bought their product in the first place. I doubt Kingston would use a "heat trapper" as you call it simply based on the fact that would make their memory less not more reliable. I can assure you of this with about as much certainty as you used in coming to your conclusion.............................Kingston is not about to use a material that will cause their product to fail more often so they can increase warranty replacement. Know what I mean?
I have no problem w/ disagreement @ all (I rather enjoy a lively debate). And I could be dead wrong---believe me, I have a degree in Philosophy, and am well aware of the problems w/ inductive reasoning (the basis for my argument). Sans the lab equip to measure temps w/ and w/out the HS/TIM's I can only infer that since I can run @ 200mhz fsb w/ the HyperX Bh-5s (locked 1800 @ 2.3ghz) and I could not before w/ out P95 failure or memory dumps/ BSODs when my wife played Neverwinter Nights Gold for several hrs...thus I am assuming there was a heat issue w/ the ddr @ 2.7V (which is rather low, since I haven't VModded the Shuttle yet & well w/in Kingston specs). I'm not suggesting anyone void their warranty--that's a personal choice we make when we undertake something as this, or V-modding a board or even, in the strictest sense, using an hsf not approved by AMD or a non AMD approved TIM (e.g., AS). While I'm far from wealthy, if I fry my memory or w/e I believe I can afford another couple sticks of 256 w/out going thru the RMA process. The lifetime warranty is nice, but these sticks' productive lifespan will prolly be over far before I toast them (i.e., ddr 2 on the horizon and so on). Anywayz, this is my last post here as well. I've presented my opinion---I could be dead wrong about this. Just an interesting obeservation that I discovered after having the seed planted while checking out threads @ XSForums.
One last thing I would like to add...an aside, based on observation...;) I believe some ppl have an inflated estimation/ opinion of themselves/ knowledge based on post count and title & they can speak to and respond to those anyway they choose (& this is based on a lot of forum whoring and not necessarily aimed @ md). I have NEVER personally attacked or flamed anyone unless I felt I was provoked. If you could review my posts here (if search worked) then you would see that upwards of 90% of my posts threads involve attempting to answer questions, give advice or bring up interesting topics. And never did I treat the greenest n00b w/ disrespect nor did I flame w/out provocation. And w/ that, as Jim Rome sez, I'm out.... :D
 

s10010001

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 17, 2002
Messages
7,468
my input...

I run my kingston hyperX bh-5 @ 3.2v 235Mhz, 24/7 for the last...god know how long, i never have any heat problems with my memory...i dont think the het spreaders hurt it or do good for it..

Plus my case is water cooled so there not much air flow in there
 

arDAWG

Gawd
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
642
Originally posted by I(illa Bee
my input...

I run my kingston hyperX bh-5 @ 3.2v 235Mhz, 24/7 for the last...god know how long, i never have any heat problems with my memory...i dont think the het spreaders hurt it or do good for it..

Plus my case is water cooled so there not much air flow in there
I must post one more time to reply to this... ;)
You may very well be correct---the fact that I gained about 5mhz could be simply coincidence, as very few ppl (2 that I know of including myself) have removed these (i.e., Fallacy of Small Sample). To be honest I don't know for a fact that these are bh-5's---as they have Kingston logo etched on the chip and a Kingston code, I'm just going by what I heard (that the KHX-3000 modules are Winbond Bh-5). I do know they are not matched...as SSSandra shows them as pc2700 w/ these codes:
Memory Module 1 : Kingston 00097500 256MB 8x(32Mx8) DDR-SDRAM PC2700U-233-700 (CL2.5 up to 167MHz) (CL2 up to 167MHz)
Memory Module 3 : Kingston 00096C00 256MB 8x(32Mx8) DDR-SDRAM PC2700U-233-700 (CL2.5 up to 167MHz) (CL2 up to 167MHz)

I bought these well b4 matched, LL sets were the norm. I never was super impressed w/ these in my 8rda+. The new Ch-5 Buffalo modules have done the best for me w/ the ep0x (though I may try these again, sans the heatspreaders, to see if they run any higher/ w/ tighter timings).
I wish the memory manufacturers would leave these things off and reduce the cost of the sticks by $10 or so, esp. if they do nothing but add eyecandy. @ least if they left the heatspreaders off one could apply some of these w/ AS Epoxy:
http://svc.com/svcompucycle/comacochco.html
W/ some airflow these might actually do some good w/ higher VDIMM. ;)
 

fugu

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 2, 2000
Messages
10,668
Originally posted by FredGarvin
It really is great to see this, after the last generation of Engineers. I sure could use some of you here at work. Keep on Modding, and keep on asking questions guys. Later. :)
you hiring? i'm looking for a mech-e job now :D
 

computerpro3

LightningRod
Joined
Mar 29, 2003
Messages
8,705
Originally posted by md262626
First I must ask you what credentials XSForums has? Second I must ask what credentials you and Weap have? How many classes in Thermodynamics and Advanced Materials Properties have the two of you had to be qualified to determine that the material in qustions thermal transfer properties are far from ideal? Heat trappers? How did you come to this conclusion? In my experience, Kingston makes very good memory modules. I think you would have to conclude they know what they're doing or you wouldn't have bought their product in the first place. I doubt Kingston would use a "heat trapper" as you call it simply based on the fact that would make their memory less not more reliable. I can assure you of this with about as much certainty as you used in coming to your conclusion.............................Kingston is not about to use a material that will cause their product to fail more often so they can increase warranty replacement. Know what I mean?
I find this funny that he is asking what credentials XtremeSystems forums has...Well, the fact that they are usually 1-100 solid on the ORB (exaggerating, but you get the point; they really have had the whole front page though) is something. Oh, you say 3dmark doesn't mean anything to you? How about the names Baker, Macci, Captain Icy, Oppainter, Fugger, JCViggen? Heard of them? Well look at the top of any overclocking database and they are in the top 10 REAL submissions. They build Cascade coolers, take 9800xt cores to 650mhz+, over 200MHz (yes, TWO HUNDRED MEGAHERTZ) further than your 9600, which is an altogether different chip! Thats like taking a pIII and clocking it higher than the highest P4. That takes skill. These are the people that take extreme editions to 4.7ghz, A64's to 3.1ghz. That also takes skill. You can't do that with your run of the mill prommie.

MD, have you ever visited the XS forums? Probably not, guessing from your warranty attitude. It is some of the most crazy stuff you will ever hear of. A lot of those guys ARE qualified engineers, refridgeration experts, etc. They have to be to do some of the stuff they are doing. Also, I have read and read again this thread and fail to see how his logic is flawed...please enlighten me (without flaming me). I think that takes care of the XS forums credentials...

You keep saying that he is arguing with you just because you disagree with him...I also find this amusing since you are the one that seems to be arguing for the hell of it, as you have not provided a single shred of evidence supporting your claims. He has.

Lets please get and keep this thread back on topic...and stop flaming. I am interested in the results as my Mushkin running at 3.2-3.4v (goodbye warranty, MD, just kiddin;) ) needs just a little nudge to hit 550mhz 2-2-2-5 @ 3.6v. computerpro3 out.
 

arDAWG

Gawd
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
642
Guess I need to get in gear and do some VMods to the Shuttle board this weekend to see what it can really do. Sadly, I can't push it to far (@ least not 24/7) cuz it's the wife's box (no pun intended there... ;) ). Idk how great of an oc'er this An35n Ultra will turn out to be, but, hey, I got it and the 1800 for ~$100...nice cheap oc'ing. I actually have 4 NF2 boxes right now & 2 are running---and A7n8x rev1.4 and the Shuttle. The 8rda+ (rev 1.1) is in the midst of Weap's crazy multi-room watercooling project, w/ a mobile 2400 Barton, I might add. I also have an A7n8x deluxe rev 2.0 that'll get my magik 2100 0247 AIUHB. Gonna VMod it and see what it'll do. Somewhere in there I'm gonna put these Kingston (non-heatspeader) khx3000 modules to the test w/ some decent VDIMM (3.2 or so). Weap and I discussed an experiment w/ using the heatspreaders---heat one side to a constant temp (say 100F) and apply to the other side w/ various TIMS. We could take readings on the "cool" side at various points to get a temp average. The only thing is, like a maroon, I threw the TIMS in the trash...so that would require me to order more HyperX (I guess there's always a good reason to order computer parts...if only I can get the sig other to understand it's in the name of science. ;). Anywayz, I'm guessing AS, Silicon Paste and prolly duct tape will beat the Kingston TIM...though I may get a surprise....damn I wish I had saved those TIMS... :mad:
 

sinn

n00b
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
Messages
10
First I must ask you what credentials XSForums has?
in all honesty, what were you thinking when you posted that? XS has some of the smartest most talented OC'ers around, and you know it.
 

md262626

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 8, 2003
Messages
1,259
Originally posted by sinn
in all honesty, what were you thinking when you posted that? XS has some of the smartest most talented OC'ers around, and you know it.
Hmmm noob, what was I thinking? Well, I consider myself an "intermediate" o/c and frequent many computer related forums such as [H]ard, Anandtech, Sharkey's Extreme, etc, etc.
By no means do I think I know all the answers. I state that fact with no hesitation. Not in any of my visits to any of the forums I frequent have I run into a post that says "Everyone go to XS for the final word in all that is o/c". In all honesty until I saw the place called XS in this thread I'd never even heard of them. Does that mean, I'm good or bad? Logic would defy anyone but the flamer to answer that question. All it means is that I'm not familiar with XS and therefore questioned their qualifications. Because you only have 10 posts in [H]ard, should I presume as you did that you know all about this forum? Should I presume anything about you? Beyond what you think my answer is NO. I deliberately called you noob in opening up this response because it was my intention to make you feel as though I had prejudged you as you prejudged me. For fact all I can say of you with regards to being a noob is that you're a noob to [H]ard because of your post count. Nothing more nothing less. My initial posting to this thread wasn't intended to be a flame, just questioning certain assertions. I'm an engr by training and experience, and that's what engr's do they question. If you can now understand my motivations great, if not, that's not my problem. I've always learned by asking questions and thus far it's served me well. Asking what qualifications XS has therefore doesn't and didn't seem to me as a ridiculous question. Nuf said.
 

computerpro3

LightningRod
Joined
Mar 29, 2003
Messages
8,705
I can understand that perfectly, but just be aware that the way that the question about XS (www.xtremesystems.org/forums) came accross was a negative one, almost disparagingly towards XS. Mabe you didn't intend that, but thats how it sounded to me, and judging from the responses, most of the others as well. You DID mean, however, for this to come accross just as it did, and this was stupid.

Aren't we the hotshot.........NOT LOL

And for the most part, they ARE the final word in overclocking. Pretty much everyone will acknowledge that.
 
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