• Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
    Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.

Huge issues with SSD's and my needs.

S

Ski

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
1,064
Recently jumped on the SSD bandwagon a month ago, bought a Samsung 830 256gb for not only the reliability (so I thought) but the price and storage. Had it hooked up to my HP Laptop HDX9494NR, and everything ran buttery smooth. But that's the only positive side.

The problem with this drive is the extremely low performance over time. This drive does very little garbage cleaning during writing process so you have to constantly let the drive stay idle in order to clean up the drive.

Unfortunately for me, since I'm what you would call a power user; I model in 3D and render quite often and I'm constantly writing huge amounts of data, meanwhile rendering scenes which can take up to a 30 minutes to 18 hours, and I'm playing extensive amount of video games, so there's very little time this drive has to go idle in order for the garbage cleaning mechanism to kick in.

And after 2 weeks my drive was running below sub-HDD speeds, boot times were taking 3-4x longer, programs and video games are also slow to load even after logging off windows to the login screen and letting it sit idle for 6 hours. Even re-booting to the bios screen to rule out any random excess writing done on the drive doesn't work. Finally towards the end, my whole system became unstable to the point where I could no longer open up a notepad without having to wait 10 seconds.....

Finally just decided to RMA it for a replacement, and after reading extensively about the garbage cleaning mechanism, and how it works I've tried to more conscious of the fact and let it do it's thing when it goes idle. Unfortunately as I've said before, when I render I have to let the computer process for 10+ hours sometimes which has no chance of letting the garbage cleaning to start. Sure enough, one week later, performance dropped big time and I was back to square one. This is not just limited to Samsung, but also Crucial, Kingston, and OCZ from what I've read. If anyone else feels otherwise please humor me.

I tried browsing the 3DS max forums, to gain further knowledge on how they deal with this sorta of issue, and the only recommendation I've seen is using an Intel drive, but even they said it's hit and miss in terms of long term performance even though the drives are performing garbage cleaning during write times. So it's like playing Russian roulette in terms of what kind of demands you need from your drive and how much time you're willing to limit your work load in order to get things done.

At this point and time I have no idea what to do, Newegg's policy doesn't allow me to return the drive for a full refund. Been dealing with their bullshit for 3 weeks, so that's outa the question, I was only able after long chats with their customer service to get an in store credit. But I'm always left with this same dilemma of the performance over time failing; I can't exchange it for other drives even with Intel, because they'll degrade so much that restoring the drive to optimal performance will be impossible. With the sorta demands I require for my work, it's impossible for me to keep my work load to just a few hours, otherwise my shit would never get done. Not unless someone can hook me up with a render farm, cuz I'm screwed there as well.

If anyone has any type of advice, even if I've already heard it before, go ahead, I'm all ears at this point and will take any sorta of suggestions for those who have it.....

TLDR: SSD = No bueno for long constant work times with little idle time for garbage cleaning. Performance goes basura (spanish for trash) and drive can't be restored to optimal performance. Other drives face similar problems, need help ASAP.
 
I doubt if it would make much difference, but have you tried forcing a TRIM on the drive using one of the tools that can do it? Intel's toolbox won't work on a non-Intel drive, but there are other tools that do the same thing. I imagine it would still need idle time to recover, but at least then you could plan it for some period when you know you'll have downtime.
 
Yea tried that already man, first time I simply just cloned the drive through one of my backup images, and then confirmed it by checking in the command prompt to see if it was enabled, which it was. Second time I simply installed a fresh copy of Windows 7 because it's already natively enabled if my research that I done was correct, however the problem persisted. Just outa curiosity though, which tool were you referring to?
 
I'm not an expert, but I think your usage patterns are probably not the best for an SSD, maybe for boot and to run the programs themselves, but maybe use a raptor for your cache drive or something. I think you are right, you are hitting the performance wall of filling the drive and not letting it clean up enough. The only way to restore the performance would be a secure erase, which means you would have to re-install the OS, which doesn't sound optimal. Or if you really need the SSD speed for your work, maybe boot from an HDD, and use the SSD as your cache, and just secure erase it when things get slow? Not sure though, its an interesting issue for sure.
 
Samsung SSD Magician

Benchmark your drive with it before running the "Optimize performance" feature. That should show the before and after.

I schedule it to run weekly, it's kept my drive in top shape.

Also if you can spare the room, over-provisioning helps a lot too.
 
ob1 said:
I'm not an expert, but I think your usage patterns are probably not the best for an SSD, maybe for boot and to run the programs themselves, but maybe use a raptor for your cache drive or something. I think you are right, you are hitting the performance wall of filling the drive and not letting it clean up enough. The only way to restore the performance would be a secure erase, which means you would have to re-install the OS, which doesn't sound optimal. Or if you really need the SSD speed for your work, maybe boot from an HDD, and use the SSD as your cache, and just secure erase it when things get slow? Not sure though, its an interesting issue for sure.
Click to expand...

Yea I've been thinking the same thing once I started doing my research on this drive, but only after the fact. Touching on the secure erase, I tried that among other things, and still was performing horribly upon first boot-up after my fresh install. And the other method you suggested kinda defeats the purpose of having an SSD to begin, because I normally shouldn't have to unload my important programs to my HDD in order for it to run optimally. But yea, this is an interesting issue for sure because I wasn't even aware of this sort of problem to begin with, and I thought I had done enough research before hand :(.


ob1 said:
Benchmark your drive with it before running the "Optimize performance" feature. That should show the before and after.

I schedule it to run weekly, it's kept my drive in top shape.

Also if you can spare the room, over-provisioning helps a lot too.
Click to expand...

When I started having this problem the first time, that was the first thing I had done.

This was when it was performing good, and to clarify this score, my board is a Sata-II:


And after a "optimize" when I was having the problem:


And could you elaborate further how over-provisioning helps?
 
I think the micron Micron P300 is good for 7.5k IOPS under heavy writes. Failing that, an acard 5" external ram drive is good for 50k IOPS regardless of read/write load.


Yea I've been thinking the same thing once I started doing my research on this drive, but only after the fact. Touching on the secure erase, I tried that among other things, and still was performing horribly upon first boot-up after my fresh install.
Click to expand...
If true, that would seem to indicate some problem specific to the Samsung drive.
 
Last edited:
If it performed poorly after a secure erase (which tool did you use, by the way?) and a new install, then it sounds like something other than the drive - or at least it is more complex than simply heavy write activity causing it.
 
Forceman said:
If it performed poorly after a secure erase (which tool did you use, by the way?) and a new install, then it sounds like something other than the drive - or at least it is more complex than simply heavy write activity causing it.
Click to expand...

I used the SSD Magician software that comes with the Samsung drive, and regarding the SSD not being the culprit, also remember I experienced the exact same problem with the replacement drive as well.

One of the things I could never find out was whether TRIM was ever working or not. I know it's supposed to run autonomously as a safe convenient feature for the average consumer, but I never quite knew if it was functioning or not, even if it said it was enabled. And since both drives failed in the exact same manner, I couldn't of possibly of received 2 drives with the TRIM function not working correctly (unless we're talking OCZ of course).

Like I said before, I consider my situation unique because very few people I'm aware of do a lot of modelling and rendering and own an SSD drive, and experience the same problem I have. I've ruled out the OS and drivers only because I'm religious about keeping everything up to date, especially with the kind of work I do. You don't know how shitty it is to have a render take 20 hours to finish and have my comp crash at the 19 hour mark, and even worse when there's a deadline involved.

However I'm willing to entertain the idea it still might be a problem on my end, but if it is, every single suggestion ranging from forums such as this one to the manufacturer have been unsuccessful.
 
Ski said:
Yea I've been thinking the same thing once I started doing my research on this drive, but only after the fact. Touching on the secure erase, I tried that among other things, and still was performing horribly upon first boot-up after my fresh install. And the other method you suggested kinda defeats the purpose of having an SSD to begin, because I normally shouldn't have to unload my important programs to my HDD in order for it to run optimally. But yea, this is an interesting issue for sure because I wasn't even aware of this sort of problem to begin with, and I thought I had done enough research before hand :(.




When I started having this problem the first time, that was the first thing I had done.

This was when it was performing good, and to clarify this score, my board is a Sata-II:


And after a "optimize" when I was having the problem:


And could you elaborate further how over-provisioning helps?
Click to expand...

There something else wrong. I was under the assumption that only the write speed on ssd's slows down from lack of garbage collection as it it only matters when your writing data where data used to be and not when your just reading.
 
@Ski

Slightly off topic, but since I do a lot of rendering too...

Can your cpu/gpu even max out the transfer rate to a hard drive? That laptop has a Core 2 Duo so that's why I'm asking. I have an Envy 17 with a i7-2630 and even that sometimes struggles.
 
I agree with you man, something's wrong to which nobody can really explain, and I'm experiencing this same issue with 2 drives. So whatever that problem is a mystery, because up until now I have yet to see another person experiencing the exact problem I have.

@metril
I couldn't answer that for you now how would I do that?
 
Your drive speeds may be because the SSD is dying. Your slow boot up could be due to an overheating processor. Just ideas. It could also be due to a failing power circuitry since I suppose you've had that machine for a few years.
 
Are you running under IDE or AHCI mode? TRIM is only enabled in AHCI mode, that might be your problem.
 
Well now that you mention it, my battery has long been dead due to excessive use, basically if I leave my power supply unconnected for no longer than 2 minutes the juice runs out. my laptop was extremely power hungry, that's an understatement. To be honest, iono why I still leave it in my laptop, I've always had my A/C connected 24/7 anyways, would taking it out and running AC only make any difference?

If it was my cpu causing overheating problems, I'm assuming it affects SSD drives more than HDD's because my original drive runs fine with it.

The power issue is definitely possible, but what can I do ?
 
Xeth said:
Are you running under IDE or AHCI mode? TRIM is only enabled in AHCI mode, that might be your problem.
Click to expand...

AHCI is on by default, it's hardwired in the bios, this I know for a fact because the bios is locked. In fact, it's impossible to change it to IDE.
 
Silly question- why are you doing all of this rendering on a laptop?
 
Because I'm broke and trying to find work in a post housing bubble crisis sucks (picked the right major at the wrong time). At the time I needed a laptop for my mobility while in Architecture school, plus it was sort of required....
 
blackhand1001 said:
There something else wrong. I was under the assumption that only the write speed on ssd's slows down from lack of garbage collection as it it only matters when your writing data where data used to be and not when your just reading.
Click to expand...

Good point - read speed shouldn't be affected by no TRIM. Plus a secure erase should clean the drive to factory condition, so if it started having problems right after a secure erase and fresh install which it sounds like it did, then it isn't just the drive. What drivers are you using? What controller? Maybe the drive controller itself is what is going bad.
 
Forceman said:
Good point - read speed shouldn't be affected by no TRIM. Plus a secure erase should clean the drive to factory condition, so if it started having problems right after a secure erase and fresh install which it sounds like it did, then it isn't just the drive. What drivers are you using? What controller? Maybe the drive controller itself is what is going bad.
Click to expand...

Silicon Image Sil 3531 Sata controller - driver version 1.5.20.1
Intel storage host controller - 10.1.0.1008 (latest compatible version for my laptop)
 
Do you know (roughly) how much writing your rendering does ?

How full is your drive ?

Overprovisioning is making a smaller partition than the size of the drive. For example I made a 200GB partition on my 240GB Vertex 2.
 
I'm using around 180GB's or so depending on what I'm currently working on, so like roughly more than half of the drive, and in terms of writing data, I couldn't say specifically or give you direct answer, my final images themselves aren't more than 40-50 MB each, however the writing in between that time is constant so there's never any idle times.

Can you tell me why you partition the drive? Is it because you're allocating permanent space in order to keep performance of the drive up? Or to store drivers or image backups in case of an emergency?
 
Its possible this could be a bug specific to their firmware. It would be interesting to see if another brand with similar stats would have the same issue, (I know its not possible right now).
 
It's possible, unless Samsung lied to me of course. They said specifically to me on the phone that the drivers I was using were compatible with their firmware.

I still have the gift code redemption they gave me. So I'm all ears at experimenting another drive. My second choice was Crucial before I picked the Samsung. Intel is out of the question only because their 256gb is out of my $390 price range.
 
This is not a new occurrence over on XS in the storage forum they are finding problems too.
ec5vqckzqisevk4l36yb.jpg



pages 50 and 51 of the ssd wear testing thread
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?271063-SSD-Write-Endurance-25nm-Vs-34nm&p=5016808&viewfull=1#post5016808

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?271063-SSD-Write-Endurance-25nm-Vs-34nm&p=5016286&viewfull=1#post5016286
 
quick question how much free space are you running and how many partitions?
 
First complaints I've heard of the Samsung drives - they were being widely touted as very reliable. Something to follow.

As for other options, the Crucial M4 still seems to be the solid reliable choice.
 
d50man said:
quick question how much free space are you running and how many partitions?
Click to expand...

Well, I really never understood partitions, just the basic concept, so I only had one partition. I never felt it necessary to split up the drive into multiplie partitions because I like utilizing the maximum amount of space. And as I said before, I was using 180GB out of the 240GB: all of it are pretty much critical programs and files I use for my work, and video games which I like to open quickly.

I have a feeling I'm about to get a 101 on why it's necessary to partition a drive :/....

@Abula

Yea I saw that drive before, but it's beyond my price range, it has to be under 390 because that's how much store credit I have availabe, and I'm broke beyond belief unfortunately...

@d50man

WOW! Good find man, that poor guy Christopher is going through the exact same problem that I have, like literally. Full formats, secure erasing, yet his write endurance kept dropping dramatically....

And here's an SS of the SMART Attributes:


I may be a noob and understanding the exact meaning of this data, but some of those numbers look no bueno to me :/

Update: quick question for you guys, been reading up on the xtreme systems forum a bit about the similar samsung issue one of the users is experiencing, and there's some charts and data I don't understand. What does "TiB Written" and "MWI Exhausted" mean.
 
Last edited:
d50man said:
Heat is also your enemy laptop +hot running ssd = MEDIC!!!
Click to expand...

Do you think I should remove the aluminum bracket from the SSD? Other than it not being firmly in place, it fits in the slot just fine and I'm not carrying this big beast around very much anymore.
 
too late now, RMA then keep it cool
also does your laptop have more than one HD bay?
 
I have my 830 running in a desktop. I will try to remember to update in a few weeks. Though my usage patterns are different.


Edit: One days use

diskmark.png
 
Last edited:
Yea please update after you've had more time with the drive. I'll concede my situation is unique because of the amount wear and tear I did with my drive. Plus until I get a replacement drive, there's no real way to find out if the drive itself was fault or something with the drivers on my system are causing it.
 
Is it not an option to let the drive idle while you sleep in order for TRIM to do its job?
 
RockoW said:
Is it not an option to let the drive idle while you sleep in order for TRIM to do its job?
Click to expand...

I tried every conceivable thing to let it TRIM; let it sit idle for 10 hours at one point, and again with my windows logged off. Finally to rule out any minute drive accessing I left it on my bios for 6 hours. Nothing I tried would work.

My final nail in the coffin was after I performed a secure erase, full format, and installed a fresh OS so that I would know TRIM would be enabled, however, it still would not run to it's optimals speeds and in most cases it felt worse. Samsung's SSD Magician doesn't allow re-flashing over the same firmware so I would have to wait lord knows how long to wait for an update.

What it boiled down to was that the reads were much much worse than the writes because writing data felt fine. but the experience when trying to write any data that my entire system would literally crawl to a halt, it was unbearable most the time. It wasn't till after thread I read on the XS forums where someone was going through the same situation as I was, led me to believe it was the drive and not something on my end. It wasn't worth anymore time to perform endurance tests, nor did I feel it would make any difference other than realize the drive was faulty.
 
RockoW said:
Is it not an option to let the drive idle while you sleep in order for TRIM to do its job?
Click to expand...

Trim is a command send by windows, every time an allocated space is freed (like, when a file is deleted). Idle time is supposedly for garbage collection (I write supposedly because I'm not convinced it really works that way). My computer is never ever idle (because of BOINC) and I've good speeds. But I'm not writing dozens of GB per day on the SSD either.

Ski said:
Can you tell me why you partition the drive? Is it because you're allocating permanent space in order to keep performance of the drive up? Or to store drivers or image backups in case of an emergency?
Click to expand...

Sorry I was not clear, I have only one partition, it's just not taking all the available space. That way, I never write to that additional space, and that could be used by the wear leveling algorithms.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top