How small is too small?

[mavalpha]

If someone asked you for the essentials in a portable gaming rig, what would you list? I've been trying to build an ITX gaming system for a few months, but there doesn't seem to be a suitable case- I think I can do better. Here's what I'm thinking, I'm trying to design all this into an ITX footprint- no double-slot cards, no GTX280s.

Flex-ATX PSU, the highest available is 270W. ATX would be too big.
Q9300, Q9450, e8500 (#1)
Radeon 4670 (#2)
1x 3.5" internal bay
1x 3.5" internal/external bay (#3)
Thoughts?

Footnotes:
#1- Midrange CPU, nothing high-end. High-end means higher wattage, plus the video card would bottleneck beyond this anyway.
#2- 4850 is twice as long as an ITX motherboard, and you need to leave room to plug in the PCIe cable. Minimum case size jumps from 7" to around 12", so no good.
#3- I don't have a DVD drive in my gaming rig. Bringing a stack of games to a LAN-party is a nightmare. I'd be fine with two internal hard drives, or even a single 640GB.

 

[Dangman]

Gonna quote myself from this thread:

Only has a PCI slot. So pretty much worthless for gaming.

EDIT:

Ok, your want got me curious as well. There are two mini-itx motherboards out there with PCI-E x16 slots:
MSI IM-Q35 Intel mini-ITX motherboard. - $230
J&W Minix 780G-SP128M AMD 780G mini-ITX motherboard. - $180

However, do note that the AMD mobo's PCI-Ex16 slot only operates at x4 speed. So that'll roughly cost you 10% to 15% in performance IIRC. Gotta dig up that article again to confirm my memory. Anyway, if you want the full speed offered by your video card, get the Intel mobo.

Then get this case (Similar to lowteckh's recommended case but with free shipping ):

Apex MI-100 mini-ITX case - $55

Then mod the case like best [486] did for better CPU and GPU cooling (I recommend mesh on both sides):
Yay! MI-100 mod!

Then get this significantly better PSU if you don't want a dead gaming PC on your hands:
SeaSonic ECO 300 300W SFX12V (v.3.1) PSU - $50

Then add a laptop CD Drive, 2.5" hard drive and the 9600GT or 8800GT since the Apex case can fit a full sized but single slot card. Those are the highest cards that I can recommend with that case and that PSU. Add a low power dual-core CPU like the E2180, E5200, or E7200 if going with Intel or X2 4850E if going AMD. Do all that (and if you don't cheap or cut corners ANYWHERE), you'll have one of the smallest LAN gaming PCs out there.

But note the dimensions of that Apex case:
8.7"x 5.1"x 11.8" (W) x (H) x (D)

Compare those dimensions with the dimensions of the Shuttles I listed a few posts above. Also compare the costs: The Shuttle SD30G I listed above costs $190 and comes with a quality PSU, motherboard and case that will require no modding at all for decent cooling. The above DIY setup that I listed will cost you $335 for a quality PSU, motherboard, and case that will require some modding in order to get decent cooling. And that $335 setup is only a few inches shorter than the Shuttle.

So think about that. Is all that time, effort, and money for the smallest LAN PC possible really worth it in the end?

Yeah I've been thinking about a mini-ITX gaming rig as wells. You might want to take a look at this mini-itx gaming rig attempt (If you haven't already):
Project: Little Rascal - Mini-ITX Gaming Rig

Some thoughts on/questions for your setup:
- I think the quad-core CPUs are a bit too much for a mini-ITX case. Considering that more than likely the case will be cramped, using the rather hot running quad-core CPUs is not such a good idea. So a dual-core Intel C2D is your best bet.
- What flexATX PSU will you be using?
- So you will be building your own case?

 

[lowteckh]

If the goal is just portable gaming, a notebook would be a better option than trying to come up with an out-of-the-ordinary gimped chassis and system.

 

[mavalpha]

I have the Sparkle SP270LE, an 80+ certified model.

Yes, I'll try to build my own. The case that let me down was a Lian Li PC-403b, so I'm using that as a template now. My dimensions will be 8"Wx7.4"Hx9.2"D- nowhere near long enough for an 8800GT/4850, obviously.
I already tried the J&W board with a 35W 3800, it was my first attempt. This time I'm less concerned about low-watt parts. I'm looking at the MSI IM-Q35 with a Q9300. MSI's own papers peg the board+Q9450 at around 70W, I think 60W is closer with a Q9300 and the onboard graphics disabled.

 

[Dangman]

MSI's own papers peg the board+Q9450 at around 70W, I think 60W is closer with a Q9300 and the onboard graphics disabled.

Is that at load or idle?

 

[mavalpha]

Loaded. Keep in mind, though, that's only for CPU+MB+RAM. No video, no drives, probably not even fans factored into that.

I saw the Rascal worklog, a pity it was never finished. However, I don't consider four (or six) hard drives a super-portable, LAN-party-only system. The other case is more in line with my goals, but it just doesn't fit "the look" I'm after.

Like I said, this is specifically for some spur-of-the-moment gaming, nothing too crazy. I have a Sugo2 that I use for a real powerhouse (Intel Quad, 8GB RAM, multiple-terabyte RAID, 1000W PSU waiting for a GTX280). Most people would consider that portable already- not me!

Ideally, it should be small enough that I could wrap it up in a T-shirt and toss it in an overnight bag. I don't want to figure out how I'm carrying this out to the car.

 

[Dangman]

You wouldn't happen to know of or have any links or images of that Lian Li PC-403b case?

But so far, the parts you listed and what you intend to do with them sounds like a somewhat solid plan. You could always just mod that Apex case to fit the look you want but building a case sounds more fun.

 

[mavalpha]

Check your PM box.

 

[CrimandEvil]

Flex-ATX PSU, the highest available is 270W.

Huh?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151064
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817103010

I've been thinking about doing this myself, mostly just as a super tiny gaming rig.
1.) Gutted KPC (hardware is now in a different case as my server) and modded for a laptop slot loading DVD drive.
2.) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103299

3.) http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=MINIX780G-SP128M

4.) Radeon 4850

5.) Atleast a 300 or 350w 1U PSU. Still trying to decide. The 4850 eats more power then a 9800GT so that might be a better choice but I'm sure that either card can be run on a 300ish watt PSU with an acceptably fast CPU.
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/15752/2

Still thinking about going with the MSI board (Q35) but the price is rather steep for me. Might swap the X2 for a Quad though.

 

[mavalpha]

Huh?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151064
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817103010

Not flexATX. Note the mounting screws. (Seriously, didn't know they went that high in that footprint.)

3.) http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=MINIX780G-SP128M

Great board, I have mine running as a combination fileserver and virtualized Media Center to feed my Media Center Extender.

4.) Radeon 4850

See my footnotes. Too long, it'll double the length of the case.

BTW, still have your BTX board if you're interested.

 

[Casca]

I am building 6 ITX sorta gaming rig. It should be easily powerful enough for what I want, but probably not as powerful as some would like. Picked up the mobos and 2.5" 160GB HDD's on my last deployment







and just got my HEC PSU and AMD BE2400's today
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339005

Paid $1190 Hong Kong per mobo (@$150), $240HK per 2.5" 160GB HDD's (@$30), $33ish US per AMD BE2400 CPU, $28 per PSU (mATX, 240w because that should be more then I need and hopefully keep it running efficiently at it's rated 75%..yes, I know, not 80+ cert, but it was $15 cheaper per PSU then the seasonic and I needed 6, so 75% was close enough lol). Also got 4GB of Gskill DDR2 800 ram for each build as well as 7" LCD/TV's that have VGA inputs and can do 1024x768 res (something like that and I only have one atm to check if it would work as I wanted and it does so will be ordering 5 more...was $65us +$35 shipping per screen). No DVD drive. Will just hook up a USB dvd drive when needed. Case I will make myself.

Don't care about the PCIe x16 slot much, I got this mobo because of the 780G chipset and the HD3200 IGP which should run everything I intend to run on it well enough and at very low wattage. You want a smaller then mATX build for lan parties? Get a strong laptop. Or build a better mATX or wait for the DTX boards to actually come out with something decent. ITX boards? Once you start adding in full size vid cards and huge heatsinks to cool powerful cpu's, 500watt psu's (read full atx psu) because of the vid card/cpu power requirements, you might as well have gotten an mATX board.

 

[AVT]

No such thing as too small!

I love small things. My main system's small, my monitor's small, my cell phone's small (Samsung U100 - world's thinnest!), my mouse is notebook-size, my keyboard's mini-size (broken ATM), all sitting on a small desk, at small temperatures, and using small amounts of power. The list goes on.

I'm also in the process of attempting to move my HTPC to mini-ITX territory - when that's done (probably sometime next year), it'll be about 4-6x smaller than my current HTPC, which is already mATX.

---

With all that said, if you want your main rig to be SFF, a Shuttle is probably your best bet. Otherwise, your motherboard cost could go up into the $200+ range - and that's JUST the motherboard. I got my whole P35 Shuttle for that much.

The other thing to consider is the smaller you go, the more difficulties you face in terms of noise and heat. Sometimes, the only real solution to that is modding - be prepared to do so to stay competitive with bigger form factors.

 

[Casca]

#2- 4850 is twice as long as an ITX motherboard, and you need to leave room to plug in the PCIe cable. Minimum case size jumps from 7" to around 12", so no good.

This particulr 4850 is under 8"....although I read that off a reviewer on newegg and could not find factory dimensions...however, just comparing pics of 4850 boards, this one is obviously shorter then others

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814261027

also...maybe try an external PSU

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2007/08/03/nesteq_nova_600w_external_psu/3

but make your own out of whatever PSU. Not an electrical expert, but don't see adding 4 to 6 feet of length to the wiring making the resistance go up much if any or a loss in signal strength.

I am still considering doing a small as I can hardcore game build, but I can't really justify spending the money as I have no need for such a build other then it'd be fun to try lol. And going with an itx board with full pci x16 lanes and 2 dimm slots is pretty expensive.

 

[mavalpha]

This particulr 4850 is under 8"....although I read that off a reviewer on newegg and could not find factory dimensions...however, just comparing pics of 4850 boards, this one is obviously shorter then others

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814261027

It's still longer than an ITX motherboard, plus the six-pin connector means you need additional length for the power cable.

also...maybe try an external PSU

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2007/08/03/nesteq_nova_600w_external_psu/3

Full-size ATX plate still required, plus carrying around an external brick that's as big as the case itself is not my idea of portable.

 

[best [486]]

The MI-100 will take a 12" card, it is perfectly made in respects to expansion card length.