How does Core i3/5 affect the hardware game?

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Yossarian22

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Basically, someone school me on the hardware game. With the advent of the Core i3/5 stuff and I hiatus from "fapping" to newegg for half a year, I'm sort of lost.

With decent and affordable P55/H55 boards between $150-$200 USD and an equal rise in memory prices (a quick glance at newegg says the price of DDR2 and DDR3 has increased evenly, ~$100 for 4GB) along with the unwavering price of C2D items (E8400 is still at $160 USD, same price as six months ago)...

  1. For current owners of lower end C2D\C2Q, what is the sense of upgrading to higher end C2D/C2Q items if Core i5 is just as affordable?
  2. Theoretically, for gaming performance, owners of lower end C2D/C2Q, doesn't it make sense to go AM2+/AM3 (namely, Callisto ($99 USD), Deneb, etc...) as a hold over?
  3. As the C2D/C2Q series is phased out, what Core i3/5 counterparts are supposed to be their "replacements"?

I guess what I'm saying is I don't understand AMD's place or the new Core series' place in the scheme of things.

For the sake of argument, what if you have a E4400 rig and you want to upgrade or replace. Where do you go from there? Feel free to chime in with comments, facts, opinions. School me. ;)
 
For #1 I personally upgraded from C2D to an i5 750 (probably shouldn't have as I had an E7500), but I think some people will upgrade to a better C2D so they don't have to buy a new mobo/ram.
#2 I'm not 100% sure, but I think the i3 530 eats up the X2 545.
#3 i3/i5 duo chips = C2D replacements; i5/i7 quad chips = C2Q replacements.

The only chips that personally leave me confused, are the Dual core i5's.
 
i3 CPUs overclocks like garbage... I would still suggest getting a Phenom 2 build over them at this time.
 
1) Note that a majority of C2D/C2Q owners had DDR2 based setups. Upgrading to the Core i3/Core i5 series would require a new mobo, CPU, and RAM. So that's additional costs that has to be factored in. For straight up gaming with a single GPU, little reason to do that upgrade in the first place.

2) Depends on the following factors:

- How low end of a C2D/C2Q are we talking about?
- What res the person is playing at?
- Is the person willing to OC?

But generally, as long as you have a C2D/C2Q clocked at 3Ghz or so, you're pretty much set for gaming in the CPU department for most games out now.

3) MissJ84 covered it pretty well here. The E8400's closest Intel Core counterpart is the Intel Core i3 530. In fact, the i3 530 isn't much faster than the E8400 in games. However, as for the Intel Core i5 dual core CPUs, those are absolutely worthless IMO. You can get the equally performing quad-core i5 750 CPU for cheaper than the i5 661. There's very little reason to buy one a i5 661 IMO.

Pretty much AMD's entire Phenom II line of CPUs has similar performance to Intel C2D/C2Q CPUs but at a much cheaper price. For example: the AMD Phenom II X2 550 CPU performs on par with the E8400 but costs only $100 compared to the $168 of the E8400.

For the sake of argument, just OC that E4400 to 3Ghz or so and you'll be fine for gaming. Since you have a E8400, there's very very little reason to upgrade to the Core i5 or Core i7 series unless you're going for a Crossfire/SLI setup for gaming. However if you're playing a game that takes major advantage of quad-core CPUs, it'll be more cost-effective for you to buy a used/new Q6600 (Max $130), Q6700 (max $140) or Q9550 (max $170) CPU.

You're better off with a GPU upgrade for gaming performance increase in your case assuming that your PSU can handle your planned GPU upgrade(s)
 
@Yossarian22

I concur with Danny_Bui's points

following is my unsubstantiated opinion for corner case consideration

One important factor : DDR2 price.
1. I bought 4 x 2GB DDR2 while price low approximate 4 x 20 = 80USD
2. Today newegg kingston value 2gb DDR2 x 4 = 4 x 52(include shipping) = 208
3. Today newegg kingston value 2gb DDR3 x 4 = 4 x60 (include shipping) = 240

For case 1, if you already have a low-end C2D (overclock-able) setup and you just want slight enhancement, example

a. going i5 implies immediate ram price 240, you still need P55 motherboard. Per Microsoft policy and spirit you need a new Windows OEM license unless you have a retail license/company copy/30-dollar student discount copy/etc. Since many will urge you to overclock to 4GHz you perhaps also need a better PSU and CPU heatsink.

b. upgrading from low-end C2D to C2Q implies upto USD260 and you are done. I will pay upto 160 but some believe you might as well go all the way Q9550 for another 3-5 years. For Q8xxx just make sure you get one with VT-x

c. the logic changes quickly if you have 2GB ram current and want more.
Example say I have 2GB/C2D 2.4GHz setup. I want upgrade and 8GB ram total
A. (6GB extra DDR2 3 x 52 = 156) + (C2Q-260) = 416 total. + 52 if original 2x1GB
B. i5-750 200 + 240 (8GB-DDR3) + 100 (P55) = 540
now it is not black and white anymore. If option B chosen, can sell parts from the existing ddr2 setup to recoup cost.

If you already have C2Q, then 3rd party heatsink and overclock to 3.2GHz and above should be sensible for some time. Watch a lot of happy Q6600 users announcing their presence everywhere :). Your only problem is if your decided to get massive amount of additional DDR2 ram at new price.

Core i5-650 has useful properties for experimenting tech users. It is 3.2GHz upto 3.46GHz on 32nm. In other part of the world where heat is a problem, having high-clock low heat by default is valuable (crazy overclock not preferred because high-heat is not desired). It has VT-x and VT-d. The VT-d will be important for upcoming Virtualization I/O enhancement when the software is able to take full advantage for generic usage case. (example dedicate entire physical card to VM for direct manipulation or optimize virtual network card sharing, currently mostly for server) Obviously you are not going to use this chip for ESX, but for testing/development it would be very helpful without major cost outlay. The price of i5-650 is expensive but not crazy. When the price drops to reasonable level, it is a reasonable choice.

The counter-argument for i5-650 will be AMD when RD8xx chipset with IOMMU is fully ready. The VT-d advantage will be neutralized and we are back to 4-core against 2-core-4-thread with IPC/SW advantage scenario.
 
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For software reason

1. Windows XP Professional will be supported until 2014.

For the die-hard minimal needs existing LGA-775 system XP fans that only need security update from Microsoft and a slight improvement, finding a cheap LGA 775 C2Q means extending useful life of the system till the end.
 
lt_shiro said:
i3 CPUs overclocks like garbage... I would still suggest getting a Phenom 2 build over them at this time.
Click to expand...

yeah, i3 530 @ 4 GHZ with stock cooler is a bad OC......


i35304ghz.jpg
 
Alright, let's try theoretical builds under the following presumptions:

Primary concern is gaming performance,
Resolution is 1680x1050 or 1920 x 1080,
No new parts (no used 4780 1GB or Q9550, sorry!)
Extra CPU intensive performance is frosting on the cake (Far Cry 2, Supreme Commander, h264 encoding, etc..)
Future proof?

*** Base Parts (HDD, RAM, Case, PSU) ***
RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 --- $93.99
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Black WD5001AALS 500GB --- $69.99 (OR substitute Samsung Spinpoint F3 for $54.99)
Case: Antec Three Hundred ATX Mid Tower --- $59.95
PSU: Antec earthwatts EA500 500W --- $74.99 (currently there is a combo deal on the earthwatts and Three Hundred)
TOTAL COST OF BASE: $298.92


---New Core i5-750---

CPU: Intel Core i5-750 Lynnfield 2.66GHz LGA 1156 95W Quad-Core --- $199.99
GPU: XFX Radeon HD 5750 1GB --- $139.99
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-P55-UD3L LGA 1156 Intel P55 ATX --- $99.99
+ Base Parts
Total: ~$738.99 before S&H and tax (if applicable)

---New Callisto---

CPU: AMD Phenom II X2 550 Black Edition Callisto 3.1GHz --- $99
GPU: XFX Radeon HD 5750 1GB --- $139.99
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-MA770T-UD3P AM3 AMD 770 ATX --- $79.99
+ Base Parts
Total: ~$617.90 before S&H and tax (if applicable)
this leaves more headroom for better GPU option or Phenom II X4 955

---New Core i3---

CPU: Intel Core i3-530 Clarkdale 2.93GHz 4MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 73W --- $124.99
GPU: XFX Radeon HD 5750 1GB --- $139.99
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-H55M-S2H LGA 1156 Intel H55 HDMI Micro ATX --- $89.99
+ Base Parts
Total: ~$653.89 before S&H and tax (if applicable)

---Upgrade Option (for comparison, this is my girlfriend's rig)---

Current ---> Upgrade Option
CPU: ntel Core 2 Duo E4400 ----> Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 --- $167.99
Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-G41M-ES2L LGA 775 Intel G41 Micro ATX
GPU: Geforce 7900GS ----> XFX Radeon HD 5750 1GB --- $139.99
HDD: Seagate 7200.10 120GB ----> SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ 500GB --- $54.99
RAM: Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800
PSU: Antec earthwatts EA380 380W
Case: Chen-ming CMUI-P-601AEB-0 Black 1.0mm SECC
Total upgrade costs: $362.97 before S&H and tax (if applicable)
leaves room for XIGMATEK HDT-S1283 120mm Rifle Cooler

So basically, in gaming performance, Core i5-750, E8400, and X2 550 "Callisto" are pretty close (in that order, Callisto trailing E8400, E8400 trailing i5-750, with some exceptions to games like Far Cry 2 where it takes advantage of multiple cores).

In other applications such as h264 encoding, i5 beats E8400 nearly doubly in every task and since Callisto performs similarly to E8400, the same applies. (conclusions for this are from AnandTech Bench)

However, I don't know where Core i3-530 fits in, I am going to assume until I find some benchmarks that it behaves similarly to a E8400 but on steroids. Anyone got good links to such benchmarks?

The real pickle here are the memory prices. DDR3 prices have gone up along with DDR2 prices. I'll go as far as to say there is no real reason to build a rig using DDR2 when you can just get an AM3 machine or LGA 1156 with chipsets that use the same priced DDR3, unless you're doing an upgrade or something. The same goes for slightly overpriced GPUs (waiting for Fermi to help lower the prices of Radeon HD5xxx series).

I would even go as far as saying building a X2 550 Callisto isn't a bother because for only about $100 more you can get an i5-750, of course, the situation changes if you have a AM2+ motherboard and RAM lying around already. You could lower the overall price of the machine by getting a cheaper case and lower rated PSU, but still, I'd really rather have the i5-750. On the other hand, $100 can be a lot of money sometimes and it could be better spent on a better video card.

What do you think? Where the hell are some i3 benchmarks? :D
 
I read the following reviews to form my thoughts and opinions on the i3 530 VS the E8400 and other CPUs:
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2010/01/04/intel-core-i5-661-core-i3-530-cpu-review/1
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/clarkdale-review.html

Also, just drop the WD 500GB Black altogether. You can get the faster WD 640GB Blue drive for the same price or the faster Samsung F3 500GB for $15 less. So outside of a deal dropping the WD 500GB Black to $55, it's a piss-poor buy at $70.

Personally, I generally don't recommend the X2 550 at all for a new system these days considering that the AMD Phenom II X3 720 is only $20 more:
$120 - AMD Phenom II X3 720 Black Edition CPU

The X3 720 is only 300Mhz slower than the X2 550 (hardly noticeable) but offers a guaranteed 3rd core. That extra core will be more useful with future games than an extra 300Mhz clock speed increase.

As far as the upgrade option go, definitely get a larger PSU for more headroom and therefore better PSU longevity, temperature and noise.

EDIT: In addition, buying a E8400 brand new is a bad idea these days considering Newegg's combo deals on the AMD Athlon II X3 435 CPU:
$157 - AMD Athlon II X3 435 CPU + BIOSTAR TA790GXE AMD 790GX ATX Motherboard.

You get to reuse the same DDR2 RAM but now you have an extra core as well as an additional (albeit a bit small depending on circumstances) CPU upgrade path. In gaming, the X3 435 trades blows with the X2 550:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon-ii-x3-435.html
 
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Danny Bui said:
EDIT: In addition, buying a E8400 brand new is a bad idea these days considering Newegg's combo deals on the AMD Athlon II X3 435 CPU:
$157 - AMD Athlon II X3 435 CPU + BIOSTAR TA790GXE AMD 790GX ATX Motherboard.

You get to reuse the same DDR2 RAM but now you have an extra core as well as an additional (albeit a bit small depending on circumstances) CPU upgrade path. In gaming, the X3 435 trades blows with the X2 550:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlon-ii-x3-435.html
Click to expand...

Neat find, I never really thought of it that way and then bam! You've just switched your platform and CPU in one swift and decisive blow. :D

This is all hypothetical, I do plan to upgrade her machine in the near future (Bad Company 2) but the purpose of this thread is to school me on the new Intel processors and where AMD lies in this mess. No actual buying or building yet, all conjecture and musing.
 
Very helpful thread. These new i5's and i3's have been harder to place for me than most of the new generation processors. Still don't know what to make of the i5's, as has been mentioned.
 
TheQuestian said:
Very helpful thread. These new i5's and i3's have been harder to place for me than most of the new generation processors. Still don't know what to make of the i5's, as has been mentioned.
Click to expand...

The i3 is a good competitive Core 2 Duo replacement: great single-threaded performance, decent multi-threaded performance, and smooth multi-tasking thanks to the massive 4MB cache and 4 threads.

The i5 dual-core is a good choice for consumers who don't want to overclock, but demand the best single-threaded performance possible. It's hard to see among all the multi-threaded benchmarks bit-tech whips out, but this is the fastest stock single-threaded chip on the market (see the Gimp test and mp3 encoding time). You'd have to buy a much more expensive Core i7 to see the same with a quad-core.

In a perfect world everything scales to as many cores as you have, but in the real-world most things you use every day are still single-threaded or dual-threaded.

But for builds here on this forum, I would have no trouble recommending the Core i3, but the Core i5 dual-core would require a very special case, because most people on these forums have multi-threaded needs or else they overclock.
 
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Great thread folks. I'm looking at a similar debate myself right now. I currently have an Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 Conroe 2.13GHz that I usually run at a mild overclock of around 2.4Ghz. 4GB of DDR2 RAM. My thought is to buy fairly cheap and hold myself over for about a year or so until the next generation of quad and hex cores come in and the technology settles down (socket format, reasonable prices, etc). I want to speed up the multitasking ability of the system and the games I play. I'm considering the i3 530 for 1) It does 3.5-4.0Ghz on air and 2) it's dual core but also HyperThreaded, something I currently do not have. I'm also going to get the new Intel 40GB x25-V for the OS (Win 7 64 bit) and applications. To overcome the minor bump in write speeds I'll be using an existing 1TB Samsung drive for most of my big data needs (ripping music and video, torrent downloads, etc). I figure between higher CPU speed, dual core with HT, and splitting tasks between two drives I should get a more responsive system now. I currently don't really do anything with media creation to warrant a quad core right now. Occasional MP3 encoding (which is fast enough on even my current CPU) and sometimes video encoding (but I'm doing that more on the Nvidia GPU with CUDA). The couple of games I play aren't leading edge but could use the bump in pure Ghz speed matched with my current Nvidia 260. Basically average usage for me right now looks like 20-30 tabs open in Firefox or Opera (about 200-500MB of RAM), uTorrent downloading in the background, sometimes one of my games, maybe a movie ripping. Given those scenarios, I think an i3 530 will be enough for now.

What I could use is a little advice on motherboards and RAM. Should I buy 4GB of DDR3 1600 for now and call it good, or can I buy four sticks of 2GB and maybe use them later on in a triple channel motherboard? Can you fill up a modern motherboard with 4 sticks of RAM and overclock reasonably well or is it still like the days of old where the system becomes unstable? This is the RAM I was considering:

G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231277

I'm not sure on the motherboard and this is where I could use some advice. I'm pretty sure I want an ATX form factor so I can easily fit my long GTX260 and one peripheral PCIe card. I'm pondering between the P55 and H55 chipset. Being this is a budget machine projecting about a year or so of usage I'm not looking to drop a ton on the mobo, maybe between $85-150. Perhaps something like the base ASUS P7P55 LX:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131604

or the GIGABYTE GA-H55M-UD2H (which is admittedly Micro ATX, but a little cheaper and based on the H55)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681312842

Thoughts on RAM and motherboard? Thanks!
 
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