Hi-End PC Sound System

Cat1yst said:
In games and movies, personally i wouldn't recommend a DAC output for its lack of surround processing capabilities, but rather a modified x-fi for its CMSS tech seems to place audio better in a room than any other surround processor
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Yeah, but he only has 2 speakers....

What are you going to output the rest of the multichannel algorithm through?
 
montypythizzle said:
Why not an AV710 for ~25 NEW if just for movies, and stereo music, or that one Auzentech card that encodes it to a DD signal, and then to a nice Onkyo HTIB, with maybe an upgraded sub?
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Thats what I do now. I use an AV710 to a panasonic XR-55 over spdif. I use foobars built in resampler for my flacs and just let my receiver take care of DD or DTS from movies. I think I paid $15 for it new. It's not much of a gaming card but it's a hell of a lot better than the $177 razer barracuda I just sent back.
 
peacetilence said:
Thats what I do now. I use an AV710 to a panasonic XR-55 over spdif. I use foobars built in resampler for my flacs and just let my receiver take care of DD or DTS from movies. I think I paid $15 for it new. It's not much of a gaming card but it's a hell of a lot better than the $177 razer barracuda I just sent back.
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Did it encode material any good?
 
I have a Denon 1907, SVS SCS-01 Bookshelves and Center, and a PB-10 coming from a coax digital connection (until the Prelude comes out) and I'm extremely satisfied with the music quality I've gotten. I added the center for HT and would recommend a similar setup to anyone.
 
MonkeyPox said:
I have a Denon 1907, SVS SCS-01 Bookshelves and Center, and a PB-10 coming from a coax digital connection (until the Prelude comes out) and I'm extremely satisfied with the music quality I've gotten. I added the center for HT and would recommend a similar setup to anyone.
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that's a money system there folks. I really love SVS. Build quality is super-duper and they back their products up to the hilt. The PB10 is the banginest sub for the $$ out there.
 
One thing to also realize, if you go through Windows kmixer, it resamples everything to 48 khz I believe before spitting the audio out, i believe in both analog and digital. (except dvd digital bypass I believe) Not sure what Vista does, but I bet it also resamples audio streams.


This will definitely make a difference if you are playing an actual CD.. Maybe for your mp3's even too, if the player is converting them to 44khz output. Normaly, kmixer takes the audio streams and resamples them to 48 khz. The resampling reduces quality.


So you want bitperfect playback.. The simplest way, for me at least, if your audio card supports it is go through ASIO on output.. I have a ASIO plugin for Winamp (that I forget where I got) to playback all my music through a my M-audio 192 to a pair for KRK RP8 monitors.. Probably not the best for music enjoyment, but its the setup I personally have for my dabblings in music production right now (and yea yea, there's better setups for that too)

There's probably other ways to ensure bitperfect playback, just google it.
 
Most onboard sound solutions support kernel streaming of some sort (whether actual kernel streaming or via ASIO).
 
From what I can remember my onboard SoundStorm 4 supported kernel streaming through it's coaxil spdif (though it was even worse in games than my AV-710 due to instability. I blame DFI for that one though). I don't know why my AV-710 has such a problem with kernel streaming and ASIO. He's correct when he says that windows mixer resamples all audio (minus dvds) to 16bit 48khz. I don't know why the guy in the other thread said it doesn't. You can choose your sample rate in vista and also resample up to 24bit 196khz but I don't think theres any way to do on-the-fly bit perfect playback when you switch between different sample rates. Theres a thread over at AVSforum with a microsoft PR spokesperson explaining how the audio works in vista and he dodged out the conversation when people brought up bit perfect playback.
 
spaceman said:
that's a money system there folks. I really love SVS. Build quality is super-duper and they back their products up to the hilt. The PB10 is the banginest sub for the $$ out there.
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I completely agree. I've auditioned speakers and subs much more expensive and they didn't come close to SVS quality. Their customer service is top notch as well.
 
ynnek888 said:
One thing to also realize, if you go through Windows kmixer, it resamples everything to 48 khz I believe before spitting the audio out, i believe in both analog and digital. (except dvd digital bypass I believe)
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This isn't exactly true. We've done extensive testing with Windows 2k and XP, and have found that Kmixer only resamples if the audio hardware requests it to. In other words, some hardware drivers will tell Kmixer which sample rate it wants to see. Kmixer will then convert the sample rate (ie, resample) to the rate requested by the hardware. This resampling is devastating to the audio quality.

With native USB devices, we were able to achieve bit-transparent (ie, bit-perfect) playback without bypassing kmixer. This did not require any driver configuration or other manipulation to achieve proper sample-rates, etc. All of them (except the DAC1 USB) are limited to 48 kHz, 16-bit, however. The DAC1 USB is bit-transparent at resolutions up to 96 kHz, 24.bit.

Thanks,
Elias
 
With regard to the original question of a Hi-End PC Sound System...

The best amps/speakers for the $$ is active studio monitors. They have built-in amplifiers which are calibrated specifically for the speakers. Also, they're usually bi-amped (I recommend only using bi-amped), which means there is less crossover distortion and inter-modulation distortion. My favorites are JBL LSR (any models in this series) or the Event 20/20 bas. Also, Tannoy Reveal's are nice.

Thanks,
Elias
 
EliasFromBenchmark said:
With regard to the original question of a Hi-End PC Sound System...

The best amps/speakers for the $$ is active studio monitors. They have built-in amplifiers which are calibrated specifically for the speakers. Also, they're usually bi-amped (I recommend only using bi-amped), which means there is less crossover distortion and inter-modulation distortion. My favorites are JBL LSR (any models in this series) or the Event 20/20 bas. Also, Tannoy Reveal's are nice.

Thanks,
Elias
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yup that's all true. the Panasonic XR-57 has bi-amp btw. It did really well with my old Paradigm Monitor 9s and now with my 5.1 system albeit it's not bi-amp with 5 speakers.
 
I've heard that Hi-fi speakers edge out monitors slightly for home user applications. The reason being is that monitors are made to be as flat as possible and don't have the same sonic characteristics as hi-fi speakers (for the $$$) Check out this article http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Jun02/articles/monitors.asp


Studios used to use awful sounding monitors because they found that when they sounded good on horrible sounding monitors they sound good through home user sources like bookshelves, radios and cars. So flat and somewhat bad sounding monitors are normal for professional applications.

My original intent for when I bought a receiver and 2 speakers was that I could upgrade over time. I want to add 3 more identical speakers when I get some extra $. Would be cool to have a center channel and surround,
 
used to be but nowadays monitors are designed for musicality too. good ones like audioengines and the m-audio ones sound a lot like headphones to me. that's a good thing btw. :)
 
OOoh hes going to use 2.1....my bad i thought it was a multichannel setup:p
 
So it seems DAC1 USB from Benchmark is the DAC to go for (although expensive, but to hell with that).

Next i need an integrated amp and speakers ( + sub i guess?). And im totally lost here as well :)

1. Do i need a sub? I saw many setups without a sub, but coulndt find anything to listen to.
2. What kind of speakers? Im not sure monitors are the right choice, since area between bass and high frequencies is avaragish simply due to thier size, right?
3. Which speakers exactly and what amp? Since im spending £800 on DAC, what would be a resonable price to spend on the rest? Preferably i would want to spend no more then £800-1200, but does it make sense?
 
Val said:
So it seems DAC1 USB from Benchmark is the DAC to go for (although expensive, but to hell with that).

Next i need an integrated amp and speakers ( + sub i guess?)
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Alright... so you have your DAC.

Now, time for your amp. I would suggest going integrated as it is simple yet it fully accomplishes what you want in your system.

My suggestion would be the Cambridge Azur 640A or 740A integrated... here is a link to an ad of a recently sold (FOR A REAL GOOD DEAL!) 640A.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1186598323
 
You should see if you like the bass response on whichever speakers you get before thinking about getting a sub IMO. Most $300-$1000 speakers need a $1000+ sub in order to hear a marked difference in most things.
 
peacetilence said:
You should see if you like the bass response on whichever speakers you get before thinking about getting a sub IMO. Most $300-$1000 speakers need a $1000+ sub in order to hear a marked difference in most things.
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Not true in my opinion. You can easily get away with a sub that is $500-ish and make a marked difference, regardless of the price of the speaker (talking $3000 and under).

But I do agree... try living with the speakers first, then get a sub if need be.
 
Val said:
So it seems DAC1 USB from Benchmark is the DAC to go for (although expensive, but to hell with that).

Next i need an integrated amp and speakers ( + sub i guess?). And im totally lost here as well :)

1. Do i need a sub? I saw many setups without a sub, but coulndt find anything to listen to.
2. What kind of speakers? Im not sure monitors are the right choice, since area between bass and high frequencies is avaragish simply due to thier size, right?
3. Which speakers exactly and what amp? Since im spending £800 on DAC, what would be a resonable price to spend on the rest? Preferably i would want to spend no more then £800-1200, but does it make sense?
Click to expand...


1. Answered earlier.
2. This one is on you, pal. I would say lets start looking at bookshelves vs floorstanders first... then take it from there.
3. Amp was answered earlier. Integrated is the best deal for you. My recommendation is Cambridge Audio, bar none the best for the price we're talking about (which should be under $500).
 
Great advice, thanks!

1. Ok, makes sense - ill try speakers first and see if that will be good for me.

2. Definately bookshelves. The speakers will be standing on a large table with the monitor and everything else pretty much.

3. CA seems to get very good reviews... What about Denon PMA-700AE? Both seem pretty damn cheap comparing to DAC :) i assume that anything more expensive will just allow me to listen to music louder and wont affect the actual quality?
 
Pinipig523 said:
Instead of a soundcard... you could use the USB from your PC into something like the Benchmark DAC1 (w/ USB input capability) or PS Audio DAC III (w/ USB input)... this is a better method than going through a digital output of a soundcard.
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USB has more jitter than SPDIF. The best method is to use COAX SPDIF as that has the least jitter and best signal. I saw someone up above say to use 0404 as digital bit perfect transport. Why spend that much on a soundcard just for digital out when you can get an AV-710 Chaintech for 25 bucks that will do the same thing? I use Creative ASIO driver to X-Fi XtremeMusic for coax spdif out to EMU 0404 USB digital in to Audiolab 8000A amp analog in. Sounds pretty nice.
 
Gatticus said:
USB has more jitter than SPDIF. The best method is to use COAX SPDIF as that has the least jitter and best signal. I saw someone up above say to use 0404 as digital bit perfect transport. Why spend that much on a soundcard just for digital out when you can get an AV-710 Chaintech for 25 bucks that will do the same thing? I use Creative ASIO driver to X-Fi XtremeMusic for coax spdif out to EMU 0404 USB digital in to Audiolab 8000A amp analog in. Sounds pretty nice.
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Hmm... I just found that John Atkinson of Stereophile was able to quantify more jitter with the USB vs the SPDIF output. Good call.

Well... if he needs a soundcard, Val can use the AV710.
 
Val said:
Great advice, thanks!

1. Ok, makes sense - ill try speakers first and see if that will be good for me.

2. Definately bookshelves. The speakers will be standing on a large table with the monitor and everything else pretty much.

3. CA seems to get very good reviews... What about Denon PMA-700AE? Both seem pretty damn cheap comparing to DAC :) i assume that anything more expensive will just allow me to listen to music louder and wont affect the actual quality?
Click to expand...

1. Cool.
2. Bookshelves... alright, lets deal with the budget once we have the amp figured out.
3. CA is probably your best bet. Though the Denon seems to have garnered some good reviews. It's truly up to you. You already have a good source (the Benchmark)... and the amps that we're looking at are pretty top notch for the under $1K mark. Your amp budget will inadvertently determine your speaker budget.

:)
 
ynnek888 said:
One thing to also realize, if you go through Windows kmixer, it resamples everything to 48 khz I believe before spitting the audio out, i believe in both analog and digital. (except dvd digital bypass I believe) Not sure what Vista does, but I bet it also resamples audio streams.


This will definitely make a difference if you are playing an actual CD.. Maybe for your mp3's even too, if the player is converting them to 44khz output. Normaly, kmixer takes the audio streams and resamples them to 48 khz. The resampling reduces quality.


So you want bitperfect playback.. The simplest way, for me at least, if your audio card supports it is go through ASIO on output.. I have a ASIO plugin for Winamp (that I forget where I got) to playback all my music through a my M-audio 192 to a pair for KRK RP8 monitors.. Probably not the best for music enjoyment, but its the setup I personally have for my dabblings in music production right now (and yea yea, there's better setups for that too)

There's probably other ways to ensure bitperfect playback, just google it.
Click to expand...

I was looking at the monitors a little while ago
curious
What makes them bad for music listening?
and What would be a better setup for mixing music in that same price range?
thanks
 
I guess ill just try both USB and SPDIF and see how it sounds to my crap ears :D

Pinipig523 said:
3. CA is probably your best bet. Though the Denon seems to have garnered some good reviews. It's truly up to you. You already have a good source (the Benchmark)... and the amps that we're looking at are pretty top notch for the under $1K mark. Your amp budget will inadvertently determine your speaker budget.
Click to expand...

Well, as i said, im not that good in audio :) so the question is - how much should i spend?

Afaik if i get a more expensive amp, i will pretty much only increase the loudness of the speakers, right? If so, then CA/Denon class amp should be fine, since im not a big fan of very loud music. I do sometimes turn up the volume, but i rarely use my crappy Z680 logitec even at half volume :D

If this is the case and im spending around £250/$500 on amp, that would leave around £500-£600/$1000-$1200 on speakers. But if you guys say there are some big improvment to be gained if i get like £800/$1600 speakers, then ill get them.
 
Since you are getting the DAC1 USB, you don't have to worry about jitter on the USB line. The DAC1 USB has a special clocking system (UltraLock) that makes it immune to jitter...quite literally!! We've done tests where we added as much jitter as possible to the digital signal, and it didn't affect the audio performance at all! We also rigorously tested and compared the USB input vs. other digital inputs, and they all performed equally. This isn't true for all D-A's...so for those not using the DAC1, keeping a mind on jitter is a very good idea!!

Thanks,
Elias
 
Val said:
I guess ill just try both USB and SPDIF and see how it sounds to my crap ears :D



Well, as i said, im not that good in audio :) so the question is - how much should i spend?

Afaik if i get a more expensive amp, i will pretty much only increase the loudness of the speakers, right? If so, then CA/Denon class amp should be fine, since im not a big fan of very loud music. I do sometimes turn up the volume, but i rarely use my crappy Z680 logitec even at half volume :D

If this is the case and im spending around £250/$500 on amp, that would leave around £500-£600/$1000-$1200 on speakers. But if you guys say there are some big improvment to be gained if i get like £800/$1600 speakers, then ill get them.
Click to expand...

Lets start with those amps for now.

Now note, there is much to be gained from a much better amp other than just volume. It sounds better because of improved dynamics, transient response to speaker load, focus, imaging, grain... etc...

BUT, I would rather you experience these changes on your own through upgrading at a later date rather than going for an expensive and better amp without knowing how good you really have it once you do. Moving from a lesser amp to a better amp adds experience to your repertoire and this allows you to further enjoy your gear.

Stick with the CA and the Denon range of products.

Let's do your speakers next.
 
he's in the UK which is why I said Tannoy which is also British and quite good. I have a dealer of Tannoy in my town and quite like the sound.
 
I finished building the system and here is what i finally ended up with:

DAC: Mark Levinson N36S
Pre-Amp: Mark Levinson N380S
Amp: Mark Levinson N333
Speakers: Martin Logan Summit + Mirage Sub (dont know the models, but they are all as old as the rest of equipment)
 
care to enlighten us how you got the system ?

and more important: pic's please!
 
:D pics!

01.jpg

02.jpg

03.jpg

04.jpg

05.jpg


How i got it is sort of a long story. To cut it short it turned out that a family member had this stuff, but never used it. So i "confiscated" it :D

Damn, it sounds like nothing i've ever heard :eek:
 
Btw, as you can see in the pics, the system is connected to Proceed Amp (which actually also sounds very good to my ears and adds distortion only at very high volume).

This is because i get a hiss in the right channel with ML. Actually i tried TWO ML's - 332 and 333, and both have same problem, even though they were used in different rooms before. Moreover, Proceed Amp ALSO has this hiss on right channel :mad: so i connected right speaker to center channel. WTF some kind of mystic... Tried different speakers, cables, inputs.... Im lost.
 
Oh, you are the same guy that I was asking ?s to in the speaker setup thread.
Well, now I see what they were hooked up to.
What sound card do you have?
 
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