Hi-End PC Sound System

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Val

Limp Gawd
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Nov 1, 2005
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299
Im building a new PC and decided to get more serious on sound. Currently looking at Meridian-class soundcard. I will be playing games, listening to music and useing it for my home cinema. My mp3 collection is 320kbps. Home cinema is all hi-end expensive stuff.

I looked at many different sound systems for PC but they all seem to be rather avarage. Right now i have Logitec Z600 5.1 or whatever they are called and integrated audio in my shuttle (which is supposed to be good for integrated) which i dont like:
1. No need for 5.1 channels. I dont care about that when playing games and no room at the back to put speakers. And music comes pretty much in stereo only.
2. When they are switched on they produce an audiable hiss which is very annoying.
3. Quality itself is rather mediocore and certainly bottlenecks 320kbs mp3s.

So im thinking about a good stereo setup. Afaik all so called "PC audio" sytems are prettty crap and most come in 5.1 and more channels. But most sound cards even at high-end level come with 2 outputs - one "proper" and one for these "PC audio" systems. Since i need to connect both a stereo and cinema, i need two "proper" outputs.

So what would you recommend i do in this situation?

PS budget is around $1k for the sound system.
 
What do you call a "proper" output?
I think you have been misinformed somwhat.
Most PC soundcards have two kinds of outputs
1. Analog
2. Digital

Both of these are proper outputs. It is up to you which way you want to go with connections and further audio gear. Do you want to run a digital connection from your system to a receiver and speakers or do you want a analog connection? If you are going with a X-Meridian soundcard I would suggest staying in analog mode. Analog is the cards strong point, well one of them.

Do you have any ideas as to what you may want in a audio system?
Do you want receiver and full range stereo speakers or a 2.1 setup with bookshelf speakers and a sub woofer?
 
I use a Denon receiver with Paradigm Cinema Series speakers http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/fronts-cinema-series-1-2-2.paradigm for 5.1. The ADP surrounds mount beside you, not behind so they're easier to wire. With an Infinity subwoofer total list cost is under $1000. I'm wired both digitally and analog. If you use it for home cinema, You should want 5.1. If you don't, just get a nice pair of speakers and a sub instead of the 5.1s. Lots of posts on here about good stereo speakers to use.
 
Looks like we have a seriously misinformed audio enthusiast, looking for a soundcard as opposed to a DAC for audio reproduction in the high end, and using useless bitrate mp3s :(
 
By "proper" output i mean a hdmi, traditional analog, coaxial or optical cable, not 3 mini-microphone jacks :rolleyes:

Afaik this 3 mini-jack thingy is a "feature" of computer audio systems. I looked over some good stereo systems and they dont have this type of input.
 
Fryguy8 said:
Looks like we have a seriously misinformed audio enthusiast, looking for a soundcard as opposed to a DAC for audio reproduction in the high end, and using useless bitrate mp3s :(
Click to expand...

We all start somewhere :) could you explain your point a bit further? What do you mean DAC as opposed to soundcard? Isnt DAC integrated into soundcard? :confused: and what do you mean my useless bitrate mp3s?
 
Audioguy, why do you recommend analog over digital with the X-Meridian? Or rather, how is it possible analog would be better than having a digital receiver like a panasonic XR-55 connected to the optical SPDIF of the Meridian?

See, I am rather new to the world of higher end audio but I went straight to digital to eliminate all the negatives of analog such as line interference etc. I don't understand why people spend time and money buying analog opamps connected to (usually mediocre) speakers rather than use optical out to a digital receiver.
 
Val said:
We all start somewhere :) could you explain your point a bit further? What do you mean DAC as opposed to soundcard? Isnt DAC integrated into soundcard? :confused: and what do you mean my useless bitrate mp3s?
Click to expand...

I was in your position about 2 years ago. Now I'm very, very deep into the black abyss of audiophile spending (look at my signature).

A DAC is a digital to analogue converter. It is what actually does the processing of audio in most audio devices. Technically, there is one in every soundcard. Some are better than others, and the best ones aren't in sound cards at all, but are standalone devices ranging from about $50 up to maybe $50,000ish.

As for your mp3's, he is recomending you use losless rips (which are bit for bit identical to CD's) or the actual CD's themselves. You won't notice the difference between 320k mp3's and losless until you've spent a good chunk of change on equipment that can show the difference though. For example, the difference between 128k and losless can be heard with anything better than ibuds. For me to hear the difference between 320k and losless it took $695 headphones, a $1400 amp for them, and a $250 source. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

Two questions: what is your budget, and would you prefer speakers or headphones? To get a "proper" high end setup, you're going to need a seperate source, amplifier, and either speakers or headphones. If you give us an idea of what you're looking for, we can help.
 
@peacetilence, If you have a X-Meridian try both analog and digital connections. I would say you will stick with analog. The DAC section in the XM is very good.
 
Ah, thanks, great post :) Here is more detailed look at what im looking to achieve...

1. Listen to music in good quality. I dont want some uber system, just a good quality, problem free stereo setup. Up until recently ive been listening to 192kbs mp3s and tbh was enjoying them alright :cool: now i want to move up a bit. I want to be able to turn up the stereo to a pretty loud level and enjoy for example Steely Dan in such a way that i can pick out every separate track and really "feel" the music.

2. Use my PC as a source for my home cinema. Home cinema has very hi-end equipment but its about 10 years old. Its a 5.1 setup, but reciever is obviously stereo, so i will upgrade that.

3. Play games, but hey anything is good for that :p
 
As for how much i want to spend... I guess spending as much on sound as i did on video is reasonable? :) So that would be 8800GTX + 26" NEC ~ $2500
 
Now you need to decide what you want your PC audio system to do.
Some PCI soundcards are better for gaming then others, some are better for movies then others.
There are lots of ways to go with that much cash. You already have a good system to work with you said, you just need a new receiver and either a soundcard or a digital connection to a external solution. I would really suggest staying or going with surround. It is just so much better for movies and gaming then stereo sound.
 
Cinema system is completely separate. Its in another room and has no relation to PC sound system. PC will just be feeding image and sound to the cinema.

$2.5k budget is only for PC components, including speakers, soundcard and whatever else i might need.

I think i decribed my purpouses in the above post... Not sure if i can make it more detailed :)
 
You mind getting everything used? For a kickass setup I would do the following:



Emu 0404 ($90) soundcard in your computer. Use that to output bit-perfect audio to a better external DAC. The Electrocompaniet ECD-1 is my choice

http://www.electrocompaniet.com/products/digital/ecd1.html about $1000 used.
For something cheaper go with a Lavry Black DA10 which is about $800 used.

From there you need a good amp. For speakers I really like the Krell KAV 150
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1186205523. For headphones, what I personally use and reccomend is a Melos SHA-Gold (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1186066033). The cool thing about the Melos is that it doubles as a Stereophile class A pre-amp for your speaker amp if you have both, improving the sound greatly.

For the actual transducers, for headphones go with the Grado RS-1. I've only heard of a select few people who have heard them and not enjoyed them. They are my pick for favorite headphones in the world, and I have heard all of the big ones including the $15000 Orpheus electrostatic setup. They will run about $550 used. For speakers, anything by Paradigm or B&W will pair well with the Krell.

Of course, you can go cheaper on any of the three categoriesl; what I've outlined above is simply a good way to get sound that will simply redefine every paridigm and expectation you have regarding sound quality. You just won't believe what you're hearing; it's that good.
 
TBH not very keen on used stuff :(

Sorry, this might sound like a silly question, but cant i go all digital? So that soundcards just gets the signal out, and it goes right into digital amplifier and then into speakers without DAC?
 
Val said:
TBH not very keen on used stuff :(

Sorry, this might sound like a silly question, but cant i go all digital? So that soundcards just gets the signal out, and it goes right into speakers without DAC?
Click to expand...

Music is not digital, so you can't go all digital. There are no such thing as digital speakers. Think about it; speaker wires carry electricity, which is what makes the drivers move. That electricity is literally the musical signal and that is needed to power the speakers/headphones. One way or the other you have to have a DAC. There can be no music produced without one. All soundcards have a DAC. Better DACs are found in external, dedicated DACS. Some DAC's even hook up via USB which eliminates jitter and needing an internal soundcard.

So one way or the other you're giong to wind up with a DAC, be it in the soundcard or external. The only decision you have to make is whether you want a good one or not. With a 2.5k budget there is no excuse to have a crappy DAC on a soundcard (and ALL internal soundcards are crappy compared to the high end of external DACs).

If you're not into used stuff, that limits your options. I reccomend a Benchmark DAC-1 ($800-900) hooked up via USB into your computer. From there, go to an amp of your choice into the speakers/headphones of your choice. Exremely easy to set up, and provided you get good amp/speakers, amazing sound.
 
Used audiophile level equipment is always well taken care of lol. Do you think someone would spend all that money and abuse it? Rarely. Trust audiogon traders with feedback b/c that is one of the most anal of all trading forums. It also has dealers selling demo equipment with full warranty. Save a couple hundred here and there and you end up with a better sys than if you paid full retail for lesser equipment.
 
Alright, so i will have digital output from computer to DAC, from DAC analog outputs to amp, and from amp wires to 2 speakers and a sub, right?

But then do i need a sound card at all? Is there any difference in integrated intel HD digital output and a good soundcard?
 
Instead of a soundcard... you could use the USB from your PC into something like the Benchmark DAC1 (w/ USB input capability) or PS Audio DAC III (w/ USB input)... this is a better method than going through a digital output of a soundcard.

BTW, if you go used on audiogon as the poster above mentioned, you can typically get better deals in the end (just be careful about larger ticket items like floorstanders, etc...). Look at my sig and you will realize how deep I am in this mess.. and 70% of my gear is through audiogon... because I would rather die than pay full retail.

Ok.. maybe not die. :)
 
2.5K....

Hrm...

You should budget about $1000 for speakers, $700 for an integrated amp, $700 for a DAC. Give or take a few.
 
I would take a far different approach than pinipig:

$1000 for DAC with an integrated volume control (the 2 leaders here are benchmark DAC1 and lavry)

$whatever for entry/mid-level amp (I am currently using a behringer a500, check out other name amps, bryston or adcom or whatever), and then rest on speakers.


Currently I use a zhaolu 2.5 DAC ($200) to a passive volume control ($150), to a behringer a500 to crappy speakers (soon to be upgrading).
 
Because receivers typically make a lot of sacrifices about things. Great for upgrades for computer speakers, but certainly not approaching "the high end"
 
All Fryguy changed was the amp price.... the Behringer is about $200.

He upped the DAC to about $1K... which isnt much of a difference from my recommendation of $700 considering you can get used Benchmarks for 700-800.

The main difference here is that Fry does not buy that amplification makes a difference, and I do. Hence the difference in recommendation.

But I agree that receivers introduce compromises, but a good one may surprise you in the end. I wouldn't say dont get a receiver.... but more often than not, a similarly priced receiver vs integrated amp... the sound quality will most likely be better with the integrated amp.
 
Alright so for PC : DAC for USB -> AMP -> speakers.

What about home cinema system? I noticed while browsing through recievers, that newer ones have ethernet port? Is it possible to simply connect it through ethernet port and leave all the audio/video for it to process? Will it play all file formats?
 
Pinipig523 said:
All Fryguy changed was the amp price.... the Behringer is about $200.

He upped the DAC to about $1K... which isnt much of a difference from my recommendation of $700 considering you can get used Benchmarks for 700-800.

The main difference here is that Fry does not buy that amplification makes a difference, and I do. Hence the difference in recommendation.

But I agree that receivers introduce compromises, but a good one may surprise you in the end. I wouldn't say dont get a receiver.... but more often than not, a similarly priced receiver vs integrated amp... the sound quality will most likely be better with the integrated amp.
Click to expand...

Err whoops. I totally missed something in your original post. I thought you were advocating getting a separate pre-amp and DAC. I advocated getting them combined, as did you, so we are on the same page :)
 
Fryguy8 said:
Err whoops. I totally missed something in your original post. I thought you were advocating getting a separate pre-amp and DAC. I advocated getting them combined, as did you, so we are on the same page :)
Click to expand...

Yep, same page buddy!

No separate preamp because of the tight budget...
 
Val said:
Alright so for PC : DAC for USB -> AMP -> speakers.

What about home cinema system? I noticed while browsing through recievers, that newer ones have ethernet port? Is it possible to simply connect it through ethernet port and leave all the audio/video for it to process? Will it play all file formats?
Click to expand...

I think that's a perfect start to a real nice 2 channel stereo system.
 
I still think your better off just getting a mid-fi receiver if you're only going to drive some bookshelves. It's your money though.
 
peacetilence said:
I still think your better off just getting a mid-fi receiver if you're only going to drive some bookshelves. It's your money though.
Click to expand...

Why exactly?

Unless he's going to go multichannel, there's no point in spending the money on a compromised solution. It'd be better if he got a $500 integrated by Cambridge Audio (like the Azur 740A used)... than to spend $500 on a mid-end Yamaha 7.1 receiver.
 
And you have ever used moderately mid-high end dedicated stereo equipment?
 
I don't know. I use a panasonic XR-55 and axiom speakers which seem to be pretty highly regarded on forums like AVS and Audioholics. If I were going to buy speakers for near field listening in a medium/small room, next to my PC, I think high output amps and large speakers would be a waste of money unless I was sitting like 15 feet from my PC in an acoustically sealed room.
 
Considering neither of us mentioned "high output amps" or "large speakers", I think you are just putting words into our mouths now.
 
In games and movies, personally i wouldn't recommend a DAC output for its lack of surround processing capabilities, but rather a modified x-fi for its CMSS tech seems to place audio better in a room than any other surround processor
 
Why not an AV710 for ~25 NEW if just for movies, and stereo music, or that one Auzentech card that encodes it to a DD signal, and then to a nice Onkyo HTIB, with maybe an upgraded sub?
 
Cat1yst said:
In games and movies, personally i wouldn't recommend a DAC output for its lack of surround processing capabilities, but rather a modified x-fi for its CMSS tech seems to place audio better in a room than any other surround processor
Click to expand...

Is it really noticable?
 
Val said:
Is it really noticable?
Click to expand...

Val,

It's not going to make a difference because you're only running two speakers to begin with. No need to use any Creative algorithm or EAX whatever... stereo will be stereo and the DAC will be used for that.

What the other poster meant was that if you have a multichannel setup, you may need some EAX or mulitchannel decoding, something that a stereo DAC can't do for you. Since this isn't the object of your dream 2ch system, it doesn't make a difference.
 
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