Here we go again (CRT replacement question)

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LittleMike

Limp Gawd
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Periodically I check in with [H] to see if there have been any improvements in LCD technology since I checked last. Screw anandtech and Tom's Hardware, I just come here ;)

I killed my CRT today. Well it's not dead, but it's got battle damage. I was playing with some rare earth magnets too close to the monitor and now I have some nice splotches on screen. The internal magnet isn't powerful enough to degauss them out. I even tried putting some of the same rare earth magnets on a dremel to force them away. While it lessened the problem (when the magnets weren't flying off the dremel even at the lowest RPM setting), it didn't eliminate it. So I may have to just step into the realm of LCDs.

I do a lot of Photoshop work and I do a lot of gaming. Yes, yes, I know, these two things countermand each other. So what is my compromise? Do I go with a sRGB S-IPS paneled LCD? Do I go with a wide-gamut that has an sRGB mode (we know that won't work)?

Suggestions from the peanut gallery, please.

As far as price concerns, I'm broke. If I only had $200 or so, am I better off going somewhere local that still sells CRT's or should I go with a Dell 2209WA or something similar? What about that U2410? Basically my wants are simple - I want the closest I can get to a CRT. I know this is an impossible want, but there it is. I would say that speed (little to no lag) is more important than color representation, but at the same time, I don't think a TN panel would work (We use HP 1740's at work and they effin' suck!)

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks guys. Next time, don't play with magnets anywhere near your equipment! Learn from my folly :p
 
Have you tried holding the same magnets in the same spots, but in the opposite polarity?

Back when my monitor was a 13" Sony CPD-1304, I experimented with a magnet and ended up with a black splotch near the upper-right corner. I mostly got rid of it by holding the magnet in the opposite polarity. This monitor didn't even have a Degauss feature, so the residual subtle black splotch stayed there forever.
 
MetaGenie said:
Have you tried holding the same magnets in the same spots, but in the opposite polarity?

Back when my monitor was a 13" Sony CPD-1304, I experimented with a magnet and ended up with a black splotch near the upper-right corner. I mostly got rid of it by holding the magnet in the opposite polarity. This monitor didn't even have a Degauss feature, so the residual subtle black splotch stayed there forever.
Click to expand...

I did try that. No luck :( The only thing that helped was the Dremel trick I found online. It was kinda neat to watch the screen ripple, but some of the spots still remained.
 
I recently picked up a free good condition 21" CRT from craigslist. Others on craigslist are asking $20, which you could probably get for $10-15. If you live in a big city, since you're broke, go that route. Otherwise you're looking at $150 for a 22" TN, unless you buy used. Also check out Black Friday sales.
 
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My experience with "I am a CRT guy checking out the latest advances in LCD technology" threads is that people who identify themselves as CRT lovers are never happy with anything that is not a CRT.

I recommend that you get another CRT.
 
chklin said:
My experience with "I am a CRT guy checking out the latest advances in LCD technology" threads is that people who identify themselves as CRT lovers are never happy with anything that is not a CRT.

I recommend that you get another CRT.
Click to expand...

Sometimes I wonder if the die hard CRT fans really look at high quality LCDs. I had a pair of 21" sony trinitron CRTs that I traded in for 8 bit LCDs. The LCDs in my eyes are much better. Better color, sharper text, more display area, more desk area. I haven't noticed ghosting.

I think you should check out some quality LCDs in person with an open mind... you might be pleasantly surprised. If CRTs are still your thing after that... you can find one on craigslist easy enough.
 
chklin said:
My experience with "I am a CRT guy checking out the latest advances in LCD technology" threads is that people who identify themselves as CRT lovers are never happy with anything that is not a CRT.

I recommend that you get another CRT.
Click to expand...

I know at least for me it is more about hesitation to make the jump and buying something I won't be happy with especially when I have little to no experience with LCDs. Reading the forums while helpful can also be a little overwhelming when it comes to displays since for the most part it is specs and peoples personal opinions with no way to judge yourself.

I guess I just need to buy one and start trying models until I find one I like. Of course locally I am pretty much limited to Best Buy, Sam's, BJ's, and Costco and they don't have anything larger than a 21" setup.
 
@zzz: My distributor still sells CRTs, so I'm not lost in that respect, but I appreciate the help. Using Craigslist would have been a good idea if I didn't have my distributor. Why would I be limited to just a TN panel at a budget of around $200?

@chklin: I think you may be right. But the reason is that CRT is still the superior technology. Hence why you see these debates all the time.

@Jonsey: I just might go out and get a new CRT. I don't know what you're trying to say as far as looking at high quality LCDs, though. I work for a huge television network, so I've seen plenty of high quality ones. They still haven't reached the point of CRT's in terms of quality, though. Again, that's why you keep seeing these sort of debates. Do you have any suggestions as to what would be good for my needs?

@OmegaAvenger - That is an incredible tool. I didn't even know they existed. Thank you for that. That may just be what I need to resurrect this thing.

@All/Anyone else - Okay, so I may just go out and get another CRT, but does anyone have an answer to my original question as far as what would be a good LCD if I chose to go that route? Or did I pretty much answer my own question - no, they still lag, no, the color space still isn't as good as CRT, no there still isn't really a best of all worlds kind of LCD, each panel has different pros and cons.
 
Question, I have a Samsung 19" Syncmaster 955DF CRT monitor and I love it for the refresh rate but prefer my LCDs for some games like CoD4 where things can be a bit more difficult to see.

On the high quality 24" FW900 CRTs and the like, can I expect better picture quality than on my Samsung?

I found some reviews on amazon where ppl say this particular samsung can get blurry. So I'm hoping that's the case because no lcds in existence can run like 120hz CRTs and I miss gaming :(

Hoping to pick up a FW900 soon.
 
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The Samsung 2233rz and the Viewsonic VX2265wm are true 120Hz LCD displays; they take 120Hz from the video card, and reduce the ghosting that CRT fanatics complain about by half compared to 60Hz LCDs. These are the best high-FPS gaming monitors (and the Samsung is the better of the two), and are the only monitors that CRT fanatics would be interested in. However, they are both 1680x1050, are TN panels and are way out of your $200 budget. Several 24" 120Hz TN panels may be about to be released to market, but they will definitely NOT be anywhere near $200; while everyone would want a 120Hz IPS monitor, there is no evidence that anything like that is being developed.

The Dell 2209WA and NEC EA231WMi are cheaper IPS monitors, but the NEC is still way out of your budget; the Dell 2209WA is the cheapest IPS panel, costing $300 at Dell at the moment, but has often had deals or sale prices pushing the cost down close to $200. The 2209WA is far superior to any TN of similar price, but is still a budget monitor and is by no means perfect; it is also 60Hz.
 
LittleMike said:
@zzz: My distributor still sells CRTs, so I'm not lost in that respect, but I appreciate the help. Using Craigslist would have been a good idea if I didn't have my distributor. Why would I be limited to just a TN panel at a budget of around $200?
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Because there are no IPS panels in the $200 range. There is planel lottery with the Dell 2007s but thats $369. You might be able to find a 2007 WFP on Ebay for that price.

Otherwise you are looking in the $500+ range. If you are a CRT person a TN panel will drive you crazy. Hell in my opinion a TN panel should drive anyone crazy.

@chklin: I think you may be right. But the reason is that CRT is still the superior technology. Hence why you see these debates all the time.

No it really isn't. There really is no debate at this point because the best color correct monitors still made are all LCDs. Sure a small minority of folks can still beat a drum but that doesn't change the fact they screaming into the wind.

@All/Anyone else - Okay, so I may just go out and get another CRT, but does anyone have an answer to my original question as far as what would be a good LCD if I chose to go that route? Or did I pretty much answer my own question - no, they still lag, no, the color space still isn't as good as CRT, no there still isn't really a best of all worlds kind of LCD, each panel has different pros and cons.[/QUOTE]

Your best choices given what you have said would be the NEC 2490 which will set you back about $1000.
 
I've got an NEC MultiSync FP955 that is I think over 10 years old.

Still working, but I'm itching to get an LCD to some degree.

Since all monitors fade over time (reduced luminescence in the CRT tube coatings I think?)... Maybe a good LCD would still be perfect for me.

But I do a little gaming and I'm quite concerned about artifacts. So maybe I should hold on for another 2-3 years...
 
@evilsofa: I was the one that posted a $200 or so budget. The Samsung questions were posted by Epiik. However, some good advice in there :p

Luthorcrow said:
Because there are no IPS panels in the $200 range. There is planel lottery with the Dell 2007s but thats $369. You might be able to find a 2007 WFP on Ebay for that price.

Otherwise you are looking in the $500+ range. If you are a CRT person a TN panel will drive you crazy. Hell in my opinion a TN panel should drive anyone crazy.
Click to expand...

Luthorcrow said:
So then an IPS panel is the closest you can get to a CRT. Is that what you're saying?

No it really isn't. There really is no debate at this point because the best color correct monitors still made are all LCDs. Sure a small minority of folks can still beat a drum but that doesn't change the fact they screaming into the wind.
Click to expand...

How can you say the best color correct monitors are LCDs when they all pretty much deal with backlight bleed, and inaccurate blacks, neutral grays, and whites? Is that not the case, because I still haven't heard of any LCDs that don't have those issues? And that's not to mention things like the fact that the industry is moving towards all wide gamut displays. And of course there is viewing angles to take into account as well. CRTs have none of those issues. I'm not trying to beat a drum, but I'm also far from calling an LCD superior when those are things still left to deal with.
 
LittleMike said:
How can you say the best color correct monitors are LCDs when they all pretty much deal with backlight bleed, and inaccurate blacks, neutral grays, and whites? Is that not the case, because I still haven't heard of any LCDs that don't have those issues? And that's not to mention things like the fact that the industry is moving towards all wide gamut displays. And of course there is viewing angles to take into account as well. CRTs have none of those issues. I'm not trying to beat a drum, but I'm also far from calling an LCD superior when those are things still left to deal with.
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What makes you so sure that your CRT
  1. Has neutral grays,
  2. Has neutral white,
  3. Has perfect 100% sRGB color gamut, and
  4. Displays sRGB colors accurately?
In other words, how do you know that your CRT does not have any of those issues?

I don't think "it's a CRT, of course it does not have any of those issues" is a valid answer.
 
LP2475 is a pretty sick 24" IPS. It's the one I went with, anyway. Great for everything except fast paced FPS games. But no LCD is great for that.

But if anyone has experience with Samsung's 955DF and Sony's FW900, is there a big picture quality difference?
 
evilsofa said:
they take 120Hz from the video card, and reduce the ghosting that CRT fanatics complain about by half compared to 60Hz LCDs.
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I have to disagree with that....They are in fact accepting 120Hz, but that's not necessarily reducing ghosting by that factor since the rate the crystals twist at are independent of the input signal. You can put circuitry in that same monitor to accept 240Hz and the pixels will transition at the same speed they do for that panel. In fact, that's what I imagine the bulk of these 240Hz TVs are. I still have yet to see a panel that can keep up at 60Hz even, let alone one with great color and viewing angle as well.
 
chklin said:
What makes you so sure that your CRT
  1. Has neutral grays,
  2. Has neutral white,
  3. Has perfect 100% sRGB color gamut, and
  4. Displays sRGB colors accurately?
In other words, how do you know that your CRT does not have any of those issues?

I don't think "it's a CRT, of course it does not have any of those issues" is a valid answer.
Click to expand...

Very simple answer - by calibrating it and then eyeballing it. Do you have a color card or a white balance card? Ask any photographer friend to borrow one if you don't. I'm sorry, LCD just isn't quite up to the task yet. It's getting close, but it's still not there yet and not sure if it will ever be. That's why I posted this thread - to see if anything new has come out since I last asked. Please don't turn this into an LCD vs. CRT thread. That's not what I asked for.
 
LittleMike said:
Very simple answer - by calibrating it and then eyeballing it. Do you have a color card or a white balance card? Ask any photographer friend to borrow one if you don't. I'm sorry, LCD just isn't quite up to the task yet. It's getting close, but it's still not there yet and not sure if it will ever be. That's why I posted this thread - to see if anything new has come out since I last asked. Please don't turn this into an LCD vs. CRT thread. That's not what I asked for.
Click to expand...

If you yourself don't post technical absurd to provoke hardforum users, no one will turn this thread into LCD vs CRT.
Obviously you know very little of things you are trying to judge about.

Nothing new has come.
LCDs with precise colors and great features that dwarf any of CRTs are still available but they are not as cheap as $200. Unfortunately.

No remedy for blind and deaf CRT fanatics has invented.
Nothing new. Same old method that alcoholics use. They treat hangover with another glass of vodka.

So please try to get another CRT and enjoy it.
 
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LittleMike said:
Very simple answer - by calibrating it and then eyeballing it. Do you have a color card or a white balance card? Ask any photographer friend to borrow one if you don't.
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Thank you for your suggestion; I have a colorimeter, which works better than color cards and white balance cards.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying that you calibrated your CRT monitor and find the color reproduction perfect in every way. I personally find it hard to believe. Do you have a screen shot from your calibration software, or better, the ICC file generated from the calibration process, to prove it?
 
albovin said:
If you yourself don't post technical absurd to provoke hardforum users, no one will turn this thread into LCD vs CRT.
Obviously you know very little of things you are trying to judge about.

Nothing new has come.
LCDs with precise colors and great features that dwarf any of CRTs are still available but they are not as cheap as $200. Unfortunately.

No remedy for blind and deaf CRT fanatics has invented.
Nothing new. Same old method that alcoholics use. They treat hangover with another glass of vodka.

So please try to get another CRT and enjoy it.
Click to expand...

If you read the original post you would see that he does Photoshop and a lot of gaming.

There are no LCD's currently that are up to par with CRT's in terms of responsiveness and also have the ability to reproduce accurate color. There are some LCD's that are tolerable for gaming(120hz models) but lack color accuracy, viewing angles and black level. There are LCD's with accurate color and decent black levels but lack responsiveness. CRT's give the best of both worlds.
 
Thousands enjoy excellent colors and play games on great LCDs.
I don't want to discuss that, sorry.

This is saying for itself:
LCDs when they all pretty much deal with backlight bleed, and inaccurate blacks, neutral grays, and whites? Is that not the case, because I still haven't heard of any LCDs that don't have those issues? = Deafness.

Do you have a color card or a white balance card? Ask any photographer friend to borrow one if you don't. I'm sorry, LCD just isn't quite up to the task yet = Blindness.

Remedy: the client should be given a CRT and left alone.
 
albovin said:
Thousands enjoy excellent colors and play games on great LCDs.
I don't want to discuss that, sorry.

This is saying for itself:
LCDs when they all pretty much deal with backlight bleed, and inaccurate blacks, neutral grays, and whites? Is that not the case, because I still haven't heard of any LCDs that don't have those issues? = Deafness.

Do you have a color card or a white balance card? Ask any photographer friend to borrow one if you don't. I'm sorry, LCD just isn't quite up to the task yet = Blindness.

Remedy: the client should be given a CRT and left alone.
Click to expand...

Wow, looks like someone has their panties in a bunch. What Doodies said is absolutely correct. Sounds like you're the one who's got the deaf ear here. Just because there are still people that aren't LCD fanbois doesn't mean they are wrong, sir. There is to date NO LCD that is responsive enough for gaming AND color accurate. End of discussion. Now if you don't have a suggestion for an LCD that comes *close* to satisfying both of those needs, then do yourself a favor and stay out of the thread as you're just trolling.
 
That's what I thought, albovin. Moving on...

Anyone else have anything constructive to add to this discussion? We're looking for suggestions for an LCD that will do both color accuracy for Photoshop work and fast response time for gaming. I was thinking it was kind of a pipe dream from the start but I figured I would ask.
 
There still is no all-purpose awesome LCD to my knowledge. The closest one I can think of to what you might want is the 2209WA from Dell. Although a few people seemed to forget that the 2209WA can do 75Hz. Many people in this forum have done it, and there's even a thread about it. It seems to be pretty color accurate, and since it has a higher refresh rate than most LCDs (except the 2233rz and the viewsonic mentioned earlier). But if your limit is $200, then you really are having a pipe dream :p very little good tech will cost that little.

It would also help if you stated which kind of gaming you do and how critical your photo-manipulation is. Ghosting has gone down a lot over the years, and although some are still sensitive to it, it has largely disappeared as a problem.

If backlight bleed is a very prevalent problem to you and you can see it no matter what's displayed on the screen; if you find the whites to not be the right color; if you find the grays to be too neutral; and you cannot find something with the color gamut that you like, then do as albovin says and get another CRT if you believe it's still the best. But I will say that '"eyeballing" color correction will only get you so far, even with a CRT. Colorimeters are more accepted as a more precise way to calibrate the colors correctly.

Or do what a lot of people are doing and wait a few years for OLED tech to advance.
 
Senryo, thank you for a concise and helpful post. I really appreciate it. I've been a member of [H] for a year and a half, but I've been a lurker since 2003. I've seen the quality of responses on this site go down the tubes in those 6 years. I'm glad there are still helpful people left on here.

Back on topic, I was looking at that Dell 2209WA you mention, and I believe I even mentioned in in my initial post. It does 75Hz? That is a good thing. It's also sRGB color space, correct? I don't need wide gamut for Photoshop, to be honest. As far as gaming goes, FPS's and WoW are the two main things I play. Now WoW doesn't require the responsiveness of an FPS, but an FPS does require a lot, so I would still need something fast. The 2209 is what, 6ms? That's comparable to an older TN panel. I am usually pretty sensitive to ghosting. At 75Hz and 6ms refresh, how is the 2209?

EVERY LCD I've ever seen drives me nuts with backlight bleed. From cheapie HP 1740's all the way to 30" Apple Cinema Displays, it bothers my eyes after a while. Is OLED the only thing that's going to resolve that? I may just have to wait around and just pick up another CRT in the meantime.

Thanks again for your suggestions.
 
chklin said:
My experience with "I am a CRT guy checking out the latest advances in LCD technology" threads is that people who identify themselves as CRT lovers are never happy with anything that is not a CRT.

I recommend that you get another CRT.
Click to expand...

I had Sony GDM-F520s and was a die-hard CRT guy. That being said, I've been extremely happy with my NEC 2490WUXi (version 1) once I got used to the larger dot pitch, screen door effect (inter-pixel spacing) and light sparkle. Black is nowhere near as good - if I spent my entire life on the PC playing Doom3 I'd be disappointed, but I don't.
 
Surly73 said:
I had Sony GDM-F520s and was a die-hard CRT guy. That being said, I've been extremely happy with my NEC 2490WUXi (version 1) once I got used to the larger dot pitch, screen door effect (inter-pixel spacing) and light sparkle. Black is nowhere near as good - if I spent my entire life on the PC playing Doom3 I'd be disappointed, but I don't.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Surly. Unfortunately I don't have a grand to drop on a new monitor :\
 
2209WA displays at a true 75Hz? Anything is possible, but I thought panels were fixed frequency internally, even if they seem to accept higher frequency signals...
 
Jonsey said:
Sometimes I wonder if the die hard CRT fans really look at high quality LCDs.
Click to expand...
Likewise, we wonder if LCD fans really compare their LCDs to CRTs side-by-side. And if they still prefer LCDs, we wonder about the condition of the CRT in the comparison. Finally, if they persist in preferring the overall appearance of LCDs, we wonder about the quality of the crack they are smoking. ;)

Heh, but more seriously, LCDs have their benefits. CRTs have their benefits. It's really all about personal preference. And if you value black levels (provides "deeper" and richer viewing experience in properly lit environment) and responsiveness over desk space, and other modern amenities (DVI/HDMI, 30" screens, etc.). . . well, you'll want to stick with CRTs. It's just the case that LCDs have inherent technological limitations where black levels and responsiveness are concerned. Nobody worth listening to actually disputes this. Though some will (understandably) downplay the significance of those limitations based on the user's environment and usage pattern.

Best,

H
 
LittleMike said:
Wow, looks like someone has their panties in a bunch. What Doodies said is absolutely correct. Sounds like you're the one who's got the deaf ear here. Just because there are still people that aren't LCD fanbois doesn't mean they are wrong, sir. There is to date NO LCD that is responsive enough for gaming AND color accurate. End of discussion. Now if you don't have a suggestion for an LCD that comes *close* to satisfying both of those needs, then do yourself a favor and stay out of the thread as you're just trolling.
Click to expand...
He's been this way ever since his pet post was thoroughly debunked. He can't really respond substantively. So he just gets nasty.

Oh wait, he's always done that.
 
LittleMike, the solution to your problem is simple.
1. Go to your local electronics store and use some sub-$200 LCDs.
2. Decide if that experience is worth the cost difference to a $0-15 CRT.
3. Act.

Now on the whole LCD vs CRT thing...in the 2.5 years I've owned my 3007WFP-HC, I haven't seen a CRT that even remotely compares in contrast, color vividness, clarity, and size. That includes using a Sony G520, Samsung 955DF, and Viewsonic G810. The 60Hz limitation in FPSs is the only downside I see.
 
@Hurin. Thank you. You pretty much summed it up succinctly.

@zzz: I'm really not sure what you're 3 step program even means. As far as your statement, I'm not even going to argue because I'm really done with the whole CRT vs. LCD thing. I will say this much, however: Can you change resolution without dithering? No. Because unlike a CRT, LCD's have a Native Resolution due to fixed pixels. That will never change. Again, like Hurin said, personal preference, but my question was whether or not we've finally come to a point where I can get an LCD that will be both color accurate for Photoshop and responsive for FPS games. It looks like I got my answer, and the moral of the story is that I have to keep waiting. I do have some decent compromises, though, and that's saying something. Thank you to those who offered their assistance.
 
I use the FW900 24" CRT Sony screens a couple SGI's versions. They are SUPERIOR to LCD's. I also use and 3 other 22" Sony screens. I do pre editing with a Samsung XL30 (the mother of LCD screens), and NEC26(the father of LCD screens). .. after doing some zoomed edits, Everything going to press is proofed and adjusted on the 24" CRT SONY's. You can tell that the Sony has better color by doing a calibration and seeing that you can hit the numbers.

My studio is moving, so if anyone wants these extra screens, I am willing to part with them, as the move left 7 stations empty.
 
You're not sure what that means? I couldn't have stated it more simply.

You said:

  • [*]I killed my CRT
    [*]I may have to just step into the realm of LCDs
    [*]I'm broke. If I only had $200
    [*]am I better off [with] CRT's or should I go with [LCD]?
So my suggestion to you is to go to a store, try sub-$200 LCDs first-hand, and decide for yourself!
 
SH1 said:
2209WA displays at a true 75Hz? Anything is possible, but I thought panels were fixed frequency internally, even if they seem to accept higher frequency signals...
Click to expand...

Yes it does. 1680x1050@75hz with no frame skipping. ToastyX confirmed this in the 2209WA thread. It also can do component through VGA which is a unique quality too.
 
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