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HD 5870 vs GTX 295
- Thread starter Le037
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GTX 295 is as much one card as 4870 X2 (yes, do you see how it says X2?) is one card. That is, neither of them are one card. The line between the two-card and one-card distinction is clear. If there is an equivalent GPU that is simply half (one less die) of the 2-card version, then it's a 2-card GPU. I don't care if you think that a 6-slot system with 3 layers of PCBs crammed into a single PCIe slot and weights for balancing is called "one card". It's not. That would be 3 cards, and if there were 2 dies on one PCB, that would be 6 cards!
The other aspect of looking at it, is the "solutions" aspect. When we look at it that way, we don't make a distinction between one card or two or three. We look at the properties:
- performance
- power consumption
- space required
- potential driver issues
You'll find that when looking at things from this "solutions" viewpoint, the 2-card types will have more of each of those bullet points, whereas different single-card solutions will only tend to have more/less of the first two bullet points. Also, frankly, a 350W "solution", to me, is no great feat of engineering. It's a kludge, and an expensive one at that, made by engineers that don't focus on the reasonable, but rather the extreme.
And of course, I can't forget to add my motto: Just say no to SLI and Crossfire!
legcramp
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IMO, dual gpu or single, doesn't matter to me! It's all about the $$$$$$$$ / Performance.
It should definitely have to run against a 295, but I don't think people should be disappointed that it cannot beat a 295, since it is far more efficient than a 295. I guess your comment isn't directed at me, but that's how I feel.
Not at all. 
I hate picking fights. I am friendly by nature, and try and respect all opinions.
I do however love discussion, insult free if possible. That is a rare thing these days on the net.
I get the feeling we have a few in this thread that are fine saying the the 5870 should not have to run against a 295.
I want to hear how they felt when ATI was declared the winner over the 280 with the 4870X2.
I hate picking fights. I am friendly by nature, and try and respect all opinions.
I do however love discussion, insult free if possible. That is a rare thing these days on the net.
I get the feeling we have a few in this thread that are fine saying the the 5870 should not have to run against a 295.
I want to hear how they felt when ATI was declared the winner over the 280 with the 4870X2.
What's all this nonsense about? I'm surprised this thread got past page 1, let alone post 2.
The GTX 295 is inferior because it costs more for little to no extra performance and its performance per watt rating pales in comparison to the 5870. And unlike the 5870, it will be useless for adding another GPU later on, because it is already internal SLI, so if you add another 295 to your system, you will get Quad-SLI, which is broke-as-shit.
The GTX 295 is inferior because it costs more for little to no extra performance and its performance per watt rating pales in comparison to the 5870. And unlike the 5870, it will be useless for adding another GPU later on, because it is already internal SLI, so if you add another 295 to your system, you will get Quad-SLI, which is broke-as-shit.
The GTX 295 is inferior because it costs more for little to no extra performance? Who cares about power... It's cheep in Ohio.
Performance is what most care about, or at least that is my biggest concern.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/30.html
Value and Conclusion
"AMD definitely surprised me, and pretty much everybody else with their new products. I neither expected such a big performance increase, nor many of the other new features that AMD has put in their card. Looking at pure performance numbers, one has to admit that AMD did not claim the performance crown this time, their HD 4870 X2 and the NVIDIA GTX 295 are still faster".
I respect this review.
Performance is what most care about, or at least that is my biggest concern.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/30.html
Value and Conclusion
"AMD definitely surprised me, and pretty much everybody else with their new products. I neither expected such a big performance increase, nor many of the other new features that AMD has put in their card. Looking at pure performance numbers, one has to admit that AMD did not claim the performance crown this time, their HD 4870 X2 and the NVIDIA GTX 295 are still faster".
I respect this review.
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My fear is that the dual-gpu single-pcb cards, like the X2 and the 295, will not last as long as a single-GPU card( price/performance-wise, that is ). I think that the reasons we hated the GX2 so much will soon start to apply for the two newer dual-GPU cards as well.
The reason it hasn't yet is because each of the GPUs on the X2 and 295 are strong in their own right, while the two GPUs in the GX2 were starting to show their age. In addition, graphics requirements have been kept low because of focus on consoles. Once games start getting more demanding, and the dual-GPU cards struggle with lower fps, heavy microstutter and low minimum framerates will likely become an issue again.
The reason it hasn't yet is because each of the GPUs on the X2 and 295 are strong in their own right, while the two GPUs in the GX2 were starting to show their age. In addition, graphics requirements have been kept low because of focus on consoles. Once games start getting more demanding, and the dual-GPU cards struggle with lower fps, heavy microstutter and low minimum framerates will likely become an issue again.
alg7_munif
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You mean when the $450 card was declared the winner over the $600 card???
From Wiki:The GTX 295 is inferior because it costs more for little to no extra performance? Who cares about power... It's cheep in Ohio.
Performance is what most care about, or at least that is my biggest concern.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/30.html
Value and Conclusion
"AMD definitely surprised me, and pretty much everybody else with their new products. I neither expected such a big performance increase, nor many of the other new features that AMD has put in their card. Looking at pure performance numbers, one has to admit that AMD did not claim the performance crown this time, their HD 4870 X2 and the NVIDIA GTX 295 are still faster".
I respect this review.
Computer performance is characterized by the amount of useful work accomplished by a computer system compared to the time and resources used.
HD4xxx had roughly 1,6 times the performance per chip area as G200 and G200b. HD5xxx beats G200b with about 3x the performance.
To not continue the free fall of technology inferiority Nvidia would need to increase their card performance to >3x their last generation. A hard task which i dearly hope they achieve with G300.
To compensate low tech with engine size is only possible short term when performance is doubled with each generation.
To talk about performance crown for GTX295 with these facts on the table is close to irrelevant. And what's more, it's redundant since within a few weeks we will see x2 cards from ATI and hopefully the G300 card from Nvidia setting new standards for performance per card if you for some reason is attached to such a convoluted definition.
I think everyone here is wrong. The 5870 should be compared to the GTX 295 and GTX 295's in SLI and GTX 285's in SLI and every other graphics card configuration. After all it is a graphics card, its basic function is to provide us with pretty graphics at a good FPS. The configuration that provides the fastest performance across a wide range of games is the best regardless of who or how it is configured. This does not take into consideration stability/ease of use, which has a big impact in my purchase.
However if you are not a fan of multi GPU/ multicard setups (which are basically the same thing as both need profiles in drivers to work correctly) then the 5870 provides the fastest performance. Everyone needs to quite arguing about whether cards should be compared certain ways. All cards should be compared to every other card/configuration out there. Then as a consumer we make the decision that works best for us.
I personally will not buy as multi-gpu setup, i don't care if it is on 1 card or 2, i will not do it, so I filter all them out and I may not have the fastest setup on the block be at least I eliminate a number of things that can go wrong or cause problems because of a multigpu setup.
However if you are not a fan of multi GPU/ multicard setups (which are basically the same thing as both need profiles in drivers to work correctly) then the 5870 provides the fastest performance. Everyone needs to quite arguing about whether cards should be compared certain ways. All cards should be compared to every other card/configuration out there. Then as a consumer we make the decision that works best for us.
I personally will not buy as multi-gpu setup, i don't care if it is on 1 card or 2, i will not do it, so I filter all them out and I may not have the fastest setup on the block be at least I eliminate a number of things that can go wrong or cause problems because of a multigpu setup.
alg7_munif
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If money is not a concern, is there any other setup better than two HD5870 in crossfire? How about 3 or 4 HD5870 on AMD 790FX chipset?
SixtyWattMan
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Not at all.
I hate picking fights. I am friendly by nature, and try and respect all opinions.
I do however love discussion, insult free if possible. That is a rare thing these days on the net.
I get the feeling we have a few in this thread that are fine saying the the 5870 should not have to run against a 295.
I want to hear how they felt when ATI was declared the winner over the 280 with the 4870X2.
5870 should be run against the GTX295 but it also costs normally $90+ more, has less ram, draws more power, doesn't support DX11 and OpenCL, and on the bright side supports PhysX. All of that for a minuscule performance advantage in most games against a card running beta drivers still. If you have a GTX295 right now GREAT, don't upgrade there really isn't a need. But if someone is running something less suggesting a GTX295 over a 5870 really is nothing but rabid nvidia brown nosing.
Uh? Doesn't support OpenCL ? In what world of imagination did you pick that one up ? Or should I say "made that one up" ?
SixtyWattMan
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ok derp don't know why I typed that, my mistake.
Ron Mexico
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I think my single 295 is smooth as butter too.
I am a nVidia fan, so I won't try and kid anybody about that...
I think both CUDA and PhysX are 'value adds' for their GPU's
The 5870 has the ability to run multiple displays, which is a plus for them. I do like that feature myself...
However, the biggest concern I have about the 5870, is the 256 bus. When the CPU was cranked up, and the benchmarks were run, the 5870 should have kept up with the 4870X2. In allot of the cases it didn't. It could be a driver thing, but on single chipped cards, that usually plays less of a role than it does on crossfire and SLI.
I have seen when we have guys running an OC'ed i7 rig, overclocking the 295's memory does still generate a higher Vantage score. I suspect these high end Monster cards need lots of bandwidth, and maybe more than the 5870 has?
http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.asp?m=100448234&mpage=1&key=�
johnksss ---------- i7 920 D0@ 4.60GHz --- (2) 295 839/1809/1203 ----- P46,814
hallowen ---------- i7 920 D0@ 4.71GHz --- (2) 295 839/1806/1193 ----- P46,101
Note the memory set to 1203 vs 1193...
and...
johnksss ---------- i7 920 D0@ 4.56GHz --- (1) 295 825/1825/1260 ----- P31,064
Q56_Monster ---- i7 920 D0@ 4.50GHz --- (1) 295 820/1817/1257 ----- P30,796
Q56_Monster --------- i7 920@ 4.36GHz --- (1) 295 817/1809/1267 ----- P30,392
johnksss --------------- i7 975@ 4.65GHz --- (1) 295 805/1800/1242 ----- P30,206
If the 5870 really can deliver the same performance as a 295, it might need more than a 256 bit bus to really shine? Not 100% sure, but I am glad that the 300 series will have a 512 bit bus, with 2GB of memory.
I do think the 380's benchmarks will be fun to see when it's released. Big Time!
I also wonder if nVidia will be able to compare the 380 to the 4870, like the 5870 is being compared to a 285.
(Kidding, I know it aint gunna happin.)
nVidia dosen't have the same Black Magic with the review sites, as ATI does.
It always goes against them. I have seen it too many times now.
When the GX2 was out, it somehow didn't seem to get full credit as the performance king, due to it being a dual card...
When the 4870X2 was released, review sites were all tripping over each other, declaring to the world how the 4870X2 took the 280's performance crown...
Nobody cried then...
When the 5870 was released, some are saying it should really only have to run against the 285. (Due to it also being a single chip GPU)
nVidia just can't win.
Some may say the 295 is 90 bucks more, but when we spend such big bucks on our systems, trying to save a few on the GPU doesn't hold much water with me.
If you want to save 90 bucks that bad, i think it wise to look for another component of your system, other than the GPU. I consider the rest of my system just backing for the GPU I wanted to run.
If you skimp on the GPU, your performance will suffer the most. Get a less expensive case, or find a quality PSU on sale...
(The 295's price will be adjusted soon anyway.)
Just for the record, the way I remember it is a 280 matched the GX2's performance at launch, and later with driver improvements surpassed it by a tad.
When the 5870 was released, it didn't beat the 4870X2. (Back to the 256 bus again I think?)
I don't want to knock the 5870, as it is a fine GPU. I simply think the 380 and 395 will be better performers.
I also think nVidia will offer better OpenCL support for the GPU, from the valuable lessons they have learned by implementing CUDA. GPU accelerated apps are going to be big this year.
Nexus will be big too...
http://www.nvidia.com/object/gpu_tec...onference.html
CONFERENCE SPOTLIGHT
NVIDIA NEXUS brings GPU Computing Development to Visual Studio
Unleash your productivity with NEXUS, NVIDIA's new development environment for GPU Computing and graphics applications that use CUDA C, OpenCL, DirectCompute, Direct3D, or OpenGL. NEXUS introduces native GPU debugging and platform-wide performance analysis tools for both computing and graphics developers, fully integrated into Visual Studio 2008.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLQuqXhlx40
The most interesting part of that is it looks like they're launching a new GPGPU tool that basically answers all the questions and misinformation thrown about regarding Nvidia's approach to GPGPU and accusations of "closed and proprietary standards". The Youtube link above gives a preview of how seamless and transparent industry standard API like OpenCL and DirectCompute will be integrated into Nvidia's GPGPU solution: NEXUS.
To cut through the buzz words, its no longer CUDA being the umbrella architecture for Nvidia's GPGPU, its NEXUS, which will encompass all of the above API as the umbrella architecture. What this means to the end-user? It will be even easier for Devs to seamlessly integrate next-gen DirectX11, PhysX, OpenCL Havok, and any other middleware or API specific effects or features on Nvidia hardware.
Sorry for such a large post.
This.
LOL at the people saying it's bullshit. He posted fucking links and scores.
And don't even get me started with how ati people conveniently left out the fact that the 4870x2 was a dual card vs the 280, which is single. But now, ZOMG!!!!11!!!1 THE 5870 PWNS THE 295!!!!111!!1ELEVENTY!!!!!11 AND IT'S A SINGLE CARD VS A DUALZ LULZ OMFGROFLCOPTER!
Hypocrites.
The 5870 is impressive, but let's face it: underwhelming.
edifyingkarma
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People who called it bullshit were talking about the spewing of fanboism and other nonsence. Tons of opinions with no evidence. Saying you Believe one manufactuer always has the edge and the you believe that they offer the best products is just a bullshit post. You cannot dispute factual tests and number, and that is not what anyone was referring to. Everyone was referring to the massive fanboy fail that that post contained
Ron Mexico
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Soooo, you want everyone to make the logical decision to compare and what the fastest is, despite the config (which, logically, would be the thing to do), but then in your last paragraph, you go full retard and say you refuse to go dual gpu because you want to eliminate "a number of things that can go wrong blah blah" despite the fact that numerous people have dual card configs with ZERO problems.
Split personality or something? lol
If your resources are unlimited, your best option is 5870 CF. If you're looking at priceerformance ratio, your best option is a single 5870.
Since neither of the above is in dispute, why the hysterics? Comparing dual GPU to dual GPU, Nvidia loses. Comparing single GPU to single GPU, Nvidia loses. Comparing single physical card to single physical card, ATI loses...which matters to who, exactly? People with SLI-only motherboards, but that's not ATI's fault.
The GTX 295 occupies a no-man's land. It was the most expensive, inelegant solution that has been rendered obsolete. Personally, even if the new ATI didn't exist, I'd have rather bought two GTX 260s or GTX 275s for SLI mode. The 260s would be slightly slower and the 275s would be slightly faster, and either solution would cost less.
erformance ratio, your best option is a single 5870.Since neither of the above is in dispute, why the hysterics? Comparing dual GPU to dual GPU, Nvidia loses. Comparing single GPU to single GPU, Nvidia loses. Comparing single physical card to single physical card, ATI loses...which matters to who, exactly? People with SLI-only motherboards, but that's not ATI's fault.
The GTX 295 occupies a no-man's land. It was the most expensive, inelegant solution that has been rendered obsolete. Personally, even if the new ATI didn't exist, I'd have rather bought two GTX 260s or GTX 275s for SLI mode. The 260s would be slightly slower and the 275s would be slightly faster, and either solution would cost less.
verylostindeed
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Actually, I think a number of people would consider it a toss-up between the GTX 295 and the 5870 if they were the same price. The price point for the 295 doesn't make much sense anymore in light of the 5870's price, but otherwise it's still a very competitive part.
I'm on the fence between the two. I don't like SLI/CF. But I absolutely hate ATI's driver set.
Soooo, you want everyone to make the logical decision to compare and what the fastest is, despite the config (which, logically, would be the thing to do), but then in your last paragraph, you go full retard and say you refuse to go dual gpu because you want to eliminate "a number of things that can go wrong blah blah" despite the fact that numerous people have dual card configs with ZERO problems.
Split personality or something? lol
Ehm, plenty of things go wrong with dual-card setups. If you ever read benchmark numbers where dual-cards simply fail to perform to their level, or if you ever read driver release notes where they have a dedicated section for additional bugs with dual-card setups, then you'd know.
SLI? Crossfire? LOL. Shitsux.
Obscene-Ignorance
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There a few of us that grab a 295GTX from dell with a discount for just over $300 bucks. How that for value! I could care less about power. It will take more than a year before you start to see game that use DX11. I will pick the 5870X2 when it comes out. If it runs faster than my 295GTX. Who cares if it is NVIDIA or ATI?
I could care less about power. It will take more than a year before you start to see game that use DX11. I will pick the 5870X2 when it comes out. If it runs faster than my 295GTX. Who cares if it is NVIDIA or ATI?There a few of us that grab a 295GTX from dell with a discount for just over $300 bucks. How that for value!
Dirt2, STALKER Call of Pripyat, Aliens vs Predator, oh heres a game just out. Battleforge and here's a nice DX11 bench for it http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php?reviewid=842&pageid=5
So much for that excuse huh ?
YeuEmMaiMai
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5870 will outperform the 295 once the drivers get ironed out
stateofjermaine
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I plan on going triple SLI-X with a 295 and a 5870. I just want to be accepted.
Krenum
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http://translate.google.com/transla...vs-nvidia-gtx-295&sl=ro&tl=en&history_state0=
http://www.madshrimps.be/vbulletin/f22/amd-radeon-hd-5870-hd-5850-performance-chart-66465/
295 still has the performance crown.
We had all those articles on how the 4870X2 took the 280's performance crown...
This makes the 295's victory all the more sweet to me.
295 May still hold the performance crown, but it also has close to 800mb's more ram, and its 500 dollars.. as opposed to 379 for the 5870 with similir performance and less power consumption... oh and Direct X 11 support & Eyefidelity. The smart buy would be the 5000 series. For now atleast, I'm going to wait for the 300 series to come out before I make my decision.
295= old and busted.
5870= new hotness.
cybereality
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Why is it that ATI-heads are perpetually claiming that performance will increase once updated drivers come out? I have been hearing this line for years, it never ends. On the flip-side, you don't hear that regarding Nvidia cards. Out-of-box the performance is just as advertised.
Because it usually is true. For both Nvidia and ATi cards.
Your answers are not hard to find if you really cared. Maybe you're just making forum rhetoric? Also it just isn't logical to use the word 'perpetual' it can only be so much, you are generalizing all the fans over an ignorant few.
HINT" take a look at launch benchmark for 2-3 games then take a look at the latest for the 4 series.
You can probably do the same with the GT 28_series though I don't have one but no doubt the drivers have squeezed out an extra 5-10% boost for both.
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bigdogchris
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While I'm in the mood for bashing Nvidia right now, I'm not in the mood for BS. I don't think it's possible to get 5-30% across the board performance increase with just drivers.
No ! the drivers i instaled from the box of GTX295 was ALOT,ALOT slower then the newer! so that is not true my friend! i had 28-30fps with the old driver after i instaled the latest the performance gain was big! like 20 % faster for sure.And don't tell me is not true cause i tested many,many times.FWIW i think the drivers in the box was maybe the first for the GTX295.
How about being in the mood for "reading a person's post"? Did I say "parity" or "closer to parity"? Hmm?