Has Nvidia Seceded to ATI in the high end gaming segment?

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Just seems like it since they haven't responded as quick as they usually would. Usually both these big card companies will release their new generation of cards not too long after the competitor releases their new cards.

This is why I don't think Nvidia expected the 5800 series to be quite this good, which is why they don't have a set release date for their gt300 series of cards.

Do I like this? No, I don't want ATI to dominate the market like they are because I don't want to pay high prices. We are seeing this trend already with ATI cards. 5850 is $259, as opposed to the 4850 which launched at $199. 5870 launched at $379, as opposed to the 4870 which launched at $299.

This is not looking good for consumers. Hopefully Nvidia won't continue the refresh game and have a suitable response in a timely fashion(e.g. 2 weeks after the 5800 series launch date) or they might as well call it quits.
 
Call it quits because they didn't have a card ready the moment ATI did :rolleyes:

You're being ridiculous dude.
 
The problem is I dont see much of a market other than the intial hype for these ATI cards.

I thought about upgrading, but at my native LCD res, my 260GTS can max out anything and play it fine.

At 1900x1080 a GTS285 will do fine. Of course the ATI cards will put out more FPS, but at 70 vs 100fps.

Once you get into people who game at superhigh res, those people are running SLI and Crossfire setups, which the new ATI cards dont outperform.

The ATI cards are egineering masterpieces, but I dont see ANY reason for them. Unless you're gaming at super resolutions (in which case, you probably run SLI already) no games out there won't run on current gen cards flawlessly. I think NVIDIA is taking their time because they can afford to. The 200 series is still doing well at a nice pricepoint and until the games and DX11 shows up more, there is no need for more power.
 
demingo said:
The problem is I dont see much of a market other than the intial hype for these ATI cards.

I thought about upgrading, but at my native LCD res, my 260GTS can max out anything and play it fine.

At 1900x1080 a GTS285 will do fine. Of course the ATI cards will put out more FPS, but at 70 vs 100fps.

Once you get into people who game at superhigh res, those people are running SLI and Crossfire setups, which the new ATI cards dont outperform.

The ATI cards are egineering masterpieces, but I dont see ANY reason for them. Unless you're gaming at super resolutions (in which case, you probably run SLI already) no games out there won't run on current gen cards flawlessly. I think NVIDIA is taking their time because they can afford to. The 200 series is still doing well at a nice pricepoint and until the games and DX11 shows up more, there is no need for more power.
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I think the point was you didn't have to run CF/SLI to get the same performance?
Dunno, seems like a lot of people don't care, either way.
 
demingo said:
The problem is I dont see much of a market other than the intial hype for these ATI cards.

I thought about upgrading, but at my native LCD res, my 260GTS can max out anything and play it fine.

At 1900x1080 a GTS285 will do fine. Of course the ATI cards will put out more FPS, but at 70 vs 100fps.

Once you get into people who game at superhigh res, those people are running SLI and Crossfire setups, which the new ATI cards dont outperform.

The ATI cards are egineering masterpieces, but I dont see ANY reason for them. Unless you're gaming at super resolutions (in which case, you probably run SLI already) no games out there won't run on current gen cards flawlessly. I think NVIDIA is taking their time because they can afford to. The 200 series is still doing well at a nice pricepoint and until the games and DX11 shows up more, there is no need for more power.
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better performance on a single card, DX11, eyefinity. Have you been following at all?

and you talk like the 5800 series can't be crossfired :confused:
 
PS3 said:
Just seems like it since they haven't responded as quick as they usually would. Usually both these big card companies will release their new generation of cards not too long after the competitor releases their new cards.

This is why I don't think Nvidia expected the 5800 series to be quite this good, which is why they don't have a set release date for their gt300 series of cards.

Do I like this? No, I don't want ATI to dominate the market like they are because I don't want to pay high prices. We are seeing this trend already with ATI cards. 5850 is $259, as opposed to the 4850 which launched at $199. 5870 launched at $379, as opposed to the 4870 which launched at $299.

This is not looking good for consumers. Hopefully Nvidia won't continue the refresh game and have a suitable response in a timely fashion(e.g. 2 weeks after the 5800 series launch date) or they might as well call it quits.
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I agree with you man, the marketplace needs competition otherwise things become stagnant and we pay higher prices. I'm to the point now where I don't care what video card company I go with as long as the price/performance ratio right for me.
 
Abit667 said:
Call it quits because they didn't have a card ready the moment ATI did :rolleyes:

You're being ridiculous dude.
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No way, usually Nvidia is on the ball and come out right away with a winning answer. I don't know now though, this is not the Nvidia of old. I would like to see them come back quick so the price wars can begin.
 
I think their are plenty of reasons to buy a 5870/5850. Super Sampling, Eyefinity, DX11, Display Port. Etc
 
Take heart.
Right now, ATI has introduced some really exciting technology and has definately got nvidia's attention.

So, ATI brought out a new card...........and it's really fast and has EyeFinity and DX11......and they are kicking nvidia around.

If you recall, nvidia had the 8800 series and the GTX 200 series which kicked ATI around for quite a while........

Tit for tat. Advantage ATI for now. Simple high tide, low tide. The tide will turn in a few months, no doubt, or not.:eek:

Still.............there is nothing out that even makes my GTX 285s sweat.........so why should I jump on the 5870????
I did it the last time with a couple of 4870 X2s and eventually went back to the 285s.

I'm on the fence about Eyefinity, though. Once it is supported in CrossfireX, I might jump on it. All I need to do is get another 24" from Dell and I'm set................my wife will kick my ass though.:eek::eek:
 
magoo said:
Take heart.
Right now, ATI has introduced some really exciting technology and has definately got nvidia's attention.

So, ATI brought out a new card...........and it's really fast and has EyeFinity and DX11......and they are kicking nvidia around.

If you recall, nvidia had the 8800 series and the GTX 200 series which kicked ATI around for quite a while........

Tit for tat. Advantage ATI for now. Simple high tide, low tide. The tide will turn in a few months, no doubt, or not.:eek:

Still.............there is nothing out that even makes my GTX 285s sweat.........so why should I jump on the 5870????
I did it the last time with a couple of 4870 X2s and eventually went back to the 285s.

I'm on the fence about Eyefinity, though. Once it is supported in CrossfireX, I might jump on it. All I need to do is get another 24" from Dell and I'm set................my wife will kick my ass though.:eek::eek:
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Yah, but 3 months time? I don't know, I'm just use to Nvidia being on top. It's weird seeing them getting basically schooled like this. I've usually gone to ATI because they had much better prices but similar performance. Now I have to pay the premium to go to ATI? That just doesn't seem right...though granted, their 5850 does beat a gtx285, so some might consider it a bargain. Meh, I still want the 5850 for $199. :p
 
I'm not sure what you mean by price wars, it seems to me there is one already.
GTX 295 = $499.99
5870 = #379.99

So the cards aren't $199. The 5870 has been proven to blow most other cards out of the water and at a price point that's $120 less than the competition. So what are you crying about?
It's as simple as this, if you don't want one, don't buy one. But you know that when nvidia does finally have a card to answer it, it'll cost more than AMD has been pricing them at.

You sound like a fanboy who is just unhappy b/c your side doesn't have something shiny and new.
 
PS3 said:
Just seems like it since they haven't responded as quick as they usually would. Usually both these big card companies will release their new generation of cards not too long after the competitor releases their new cards.

This is why I don't think Nvidia expected the 5800 series to be quite this good, which is why they don't have a set release date for their gt300 series of cards.

Do I like this? No, I don't want ATI to dominate the market like they are because I don't want to pay high prices. We are seeing this trend already with ATI cards. 5850 is $259, as opposed to the 4850 which launched at $199. 5870 launched at $379, as opposed to the 4870 which launched at $299.

This is not looking good for consumers. Hopefully Nvidia won't continue the refresh game and have a suitable response in a timely fashion(e.g. 2 weeks after the 5800 series launch date) or they might as well call it quits.
Click to expand...
Nvidia has had the best cards of the generation for the past several series. ATI has released first and Nvidia releases months later with a better card that cost about 2X more. This isn't abnormal. Sure, the 5870 is good but the 4870 is (was) good when it launched too and really turned heads. New gpu's are always look really good when your running games that are a year old, that you're used to running on slower hardware. The key is, how will these games run games that are not yet out. The mass market won't see these cards for a while so how it plays games today is very trivial in the big pictures since it's a small market.
 
CanesVenetici said:
I'm not sure what you mean by price wars, it seems to me there is one already.
GTX 295 = $499.99
5870 = #379.99

So the cards aren't $199. The 5870 has been proven to blow most other cards out of the water and at a price point that's $120 less than the competition. So what are you crying about?
It's as simple as this, if you don't want one, don't buy one. But you know that when nvidia does finally have a card to answer it, it'll cost more than AMD has been pricing them at.

You sound like a fanboy who is just unhappy b/c your side doesn't have something shiny and new.
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I want one, but I don't want to pay a $59-79 premium for it. I want the 5850 for $199, or the 5870 for $299...the same launch prices they had for the 4850 and 4870.
 
You're really saying that $379 is a high price for the fastest single GPU card available? It's a bargain.

My 8800GTX launched at $679.
 
It would be more of a bargain at $299 for me. 4870 is down to like $149...even cheaper AR... at newegg. At $299 the 5870 would still be double the price of the 4870.
 
Yep Nvidia's done son. Out of biznass. Gone the way of 3dfx. Maybe AMD will buy whats left of them. It's gonna be AMD vs Intel now. I'm an Intel GPU fanboy and I'm gonna spew forth my opinions!!

Haha get real. Why do these stupid threads happen everytime a new card comes to market???
 
hd 5850 under $300, gtx 285 over $300, looks like an easy enough choice for now thru Christmas anyway. Nvidia needs to drop their prices NOW if they want to sell gtx cards. The money is being spent.....
 
magoo said:
has EyeFinity and DX11......and they are kicking nvidia around.
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They are hardly kicking anyone around. Eyefinity is a gimick that hardly anyone will buy into. DX11 is only useful for future-proofing right now but by the time DX11 games are actually out in force there will be a newer card out or on the horizon that will make you wish you'd saved that $400 until there was a real reason to spend it. Hell, by the time there is more than 2-3 DX11 titles on the market the 5870 will be selling for $250 or less.

Many gamers are currently perfectly happy with their 8-series or GTX260-285 cards which allow them to play most games on the market maxed out. Console ports ftw, eh?
 
actually guys this is not a bad question, looking at the specs I am thinking that Nvidia DOESN:T necessarily mean for it to be the top end gaming card, more like the top end GPGPU card. they are unquestionably going for the high end but I would think that for the top end gaming card a die shrink of the GT200 and maybe some expansion would have been much easier and effect. (not sure just how much just a die shrink would bring in speed)
 
Pointless discussion, it's a good thing that AMD came out with a good product, gives nVidia something to think about and try and offer a better one (if they can), competition is good, I think we sat on g80 and variants for far too long.
 
when i bought the 4870 512 MB at launch it was 299$ with 512MB, so having a new generation card with 1 GB at 379$ is not too much ,taking into consideration the additional memory and being a new generation top of the line card.

i still believe that it shoud be around 50$ lower to have an excelent price point, the 4870 price was to deliver a message to nvidia at the time, at least this time ATI are not pricing their cards twice as they should like nvidia did with the GT200.
 
People who are already happy with their systems don't need to upgrade. Isn't this common sense? This is not a problem with ATI "missing their price point," in my opinion. They could come out with the HD Red Jesus for $99 and users could still say, "My 4890/GTX 285/Tri-SLI setup runs every game I need with no problems. Why should I upgrade?"

Well, you shouldn't.

People in the market for new hardware buy new hardware. Those who aren't, don't. Some people are opting out of CF/SLI, and have pounced on the new cards. Everyone else who doesn't need/want it, yet, can sit back and relax. Isn't this the way it should be?
 
And it is far too early, in my opinion, to say whether or not NVIDIA will lose the DX11 generation. They may be behind now, but if they deliver a knockout blow, the release date will be of little significance.
 
Valset said:
actually guys this is not a bad question
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i disagree; i think it's a stupid question (and rather alarmist) because it assumes that nvidia's current condition represents its entire future. even though the OP misused the word "secede" a bit (concede would have been better diction), the question still clearly asks whether NV is pulling out for good.

i think it's clear tht they've de-prioritized gaming in the short term because they're hoping to make major inroads into the highly parallel, high performance computing segment and sell chips (at a high premium) to professional, academic and scientific communities; that's some good lookin bacon right there, and i think they believe that they need to diversify the way intel and AMD have done if they want to stay around for a long time. to do that, they've focused on creating a chip that can wow potential customers in the HPC market and still placate their gaming customers, but i think Fermi only represents an awkward phase in the evolution of NV technology because they don't currently have the capital to develop two significantly different chips.

whether they succeed or fail, i think they'll have to return to the GPU market eventually, adopting a "lean, mean, only for gaming" philosophy much the same as ATI has. either it will be because they succeeded in the HPC segment and have enough capital to compete in two markets, or they'll have failed and turn back to the market that made them as successful as they are now.

JM2C of course, and of course i don't know if Fermi/GTX 300 will lag behind HD 5800 in any sense. what is clear is that ATI has a great chip out at a price that's lower than other first-out-of-the-gate-new-gen releases have been (remember what 8800 GTX and GTX 280 cost at release).
 
PS3 said:
I want one, but I don't want to pay a $59-79 premium for it. I want the 5850 for $199, or the 5870 for $299...the same launch prices they had for the 4850 and 4870.
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Get use to higher prices, it's how the market works. Not to mention the price is very reasonable anyway
 
The whole post is lame, but the lamest part is the comparison of launch prices. I mean, do people look into the prices vs performance AT ALL? The 5850 is $260-270... K. It outperforms a GTX 285, and the GTX 285 is more expensive.

Somebody smack this guy ffs.
 
dystopic said:
i disagree; i think it's a stupid question (and rather alarmist) because it assumes that nvidia's current condition represents its entire future. even though the OP misused the word "secede" a bit (concede would have been better diction), the question still clearly asks whether NV is pulling out for good.

i think it's clear tht they've de-prioritized gaming in the short term because they're hoping to make major inroads into the highly parallel, high performance computing segment and sell chips (at a high premium) to professional, academic and scientific communities; that's some good lookin bacon right there, and i think they believe that they need to diversify the way intel and AMD have done if they want to stay around for a long time. to do that, they've focused on creating a chip that can wow potential customers in the HPC market and still placate their gaming customers, but i think Fermi only represents an awkward phase in the evolution of NV technology because they don't currently have the capital to develop two significantly different chips.

whether they succeed or fail, i think they'll have to return to the GPU market eventually, adopting a "lean, mean, only for gaming" philosophy much the same as ATI has. either it will be because they succeeded in the HPC segment and have enough capital to compete in two markets, or they'll have failed and turn back to the market that made them as successful as they are now.

JM2C of course, and of course i don't know if Fermi/GTX 300 will lag behind HD 5800 in any sense. what is clear is that ATI has a great chip out at a price that's lower than other first-out-of-the-gate-new-gen releases have been (remember what 8800 GTX and GTX 280 cost at release).
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I would argue that neither paths are exclusive. for instance looking at the fermi I have to wonder if it will be able to keep up with the 5870, so much of it is geared toward the different path. but if does well in both areas it may not need to be the best gaming gpu to be the better buy. if they can actually start using the extra features and really bring something to the desktop user I can see it, eventually.

I will agree the question could be posed, but the argument is interesting, I would think that Nvidia would have to know that they were going to take a hit in this area. (I wonder just how much of a hit) They obviously think it worth while
 
Valset said:
I would argue that neither paths are exclusive.
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i wouldn't disagree with your argument, and i didn't mean to indicate that they couldn't possibly have a multi-purpose chip. if i sounded like that, well, it's because i'm not holding my breath for nVidia. i should have the cash for an upgrade in the next month, and i'll be grabbing a 5850. considering that i'm upgrading from an 8600 GTS, i don't think it's a leap of faith to say that it will blow my mind in comparison.

maybe NV does have some beast on the horizon, but even if i wanted to play the waiting game, i have too many unanswered questions: will the added computational power also add latency, limit clock speeds, or otherwise compromise Fermi's gaming ability, will it make it a power-hungry beast, or drive up the price, and are yields going to make it hard to find and even more pricey, and is it true they won't release a reference design, meaning that all their partners will have to figure out PCB design (and solve any remaining problems for NV)?

then there's EyeFinity. i have a 24" monitor now, and even though i'm not ready to buy 2 more, i am excited to see ATI supporting triple monitor gaming because it is something i've wanted to do for some time. if it's actually a supported feature right now, i'm willing to get on board with the capability early. i know ATI has a reputation for not getting all their features supported right away, but if it's not obvious, i hold on to my hardware for years, not months.
 
This is sorta dumb. If you don't have the money to pony up for the fastest single-chip card in the history of the planet, which they are letting go For A Fucking Song at 379, that's too bad.

When you're king, you get to charge a premium. I don't see people whining about top-end Intel chips costing well over a grand. I do however see people buying second-rate stuff and settling for less than the best.
 
I am not really that impressed with the benchmarks I've seen so far on the 5870. It's on par with a GTX 285, and way late to the punch bowl.
 
e39dinan said:
I am not really that impressed with the benchmarks I've seen so far on the 5870. It's on par with a GTX 285, and way late to the punch bowl.
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The 5850 is on par with the GTX285, and often beats it. The 5870 is between the 5850 and the 4870X2 and GTX 295. I think as drivers mature, the gap between this gen's dual gpu cards and the 5870 will lessen. We don't even have a first official driver yet.
 
lollerskater69 said:
Yeah and it doesn't even seem like nVidia is focused on us gamers with this Fermi stuff.
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Nvidia is focusing on the HPC market. They know that as time goes on, the GPU will be integrated on the CPU, and since they can't make an x86 cpu there will be no place for them in the lucrative OEM systems. That being said, I don't believe that the Fermi will be bad at rendering games. I'm just wandering if they can find a good use for the DP shaders outside of HPC.
 
Mister E said:
Yep Nvidia's done son. Out of biznass. Gone the way of 3dfx. Maybe AMD will buy whats left of them. It's gonna be AMD vs Intel now. I'm an Intel GPU fanboy and I'm gonna spew forth my opinions!!

Haha get real. Why do these stupid threads happen everytime a new card comes to market???
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LoL, good post. Take it to the extreme to show how silly the question is. Same type of posts when AMD was lagging spelling doom and gloom.
 
SicKlown42012 said:
The 5850 is on par with the GTX285, and often beats it. The 5870 is between the 5850 and the 4870X2 and GTX 295. I think as drivers mature, the gap between this gen's dual gpu cards and the 5870 will lessen. We don't even have a first official driver yet.
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Yeah, I looked at a few more reviews - and the GTX 285 is beaten by the 5870. Is there a 5890 in the future?
 
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