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Hardware help for hardcore SFF

S

SimenZhor

n00b
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
22
Hi, I am new to this forum but it seems like a great place to be when I am going to do a project where I will try to fit in as much power as possible in a custom 175 x 280 x 140 mm box. The thing is that this is just an ordinary "square"-ish box where I am going to make my own mounts and racks, so It is going to be tight as h**l, so that's why I need help. Especially on the PSU side as I am not that qualified concerning current, voltages, watts or ohms. I know basics, but not too much.

Here I have filled out the scheme provided by the forum rules:

1. What will you be doing with this PC?:
Just an example of how much I can fit into a small place!

2. What's your budget?:
Nothing to concern about! The cost won't exceed my wallets limits before the items exceed the limits of the small box.

3. Where do you live?:
I live in Norway. I have no problem with buying on the internet.

4. What exact parts do you need for that budget?
MoBo, PSU, CPU, RAM, fans, CPU cooling, Power button, (preferably) GPU (however, if I can't fit it in, I can live with a H67 board. I know it is going to be tight)

I have already bought a Kingston HyperX 120GB 2.5" SSD, If there is space at the end I will squeeze in a larger HDD as well.

5. If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing?
I do not have any pieces that stand out as something I will re-use. But I have a defect Acer 8942G (Link) laptop lying about, and as it is the motherboard that is defect I am willing to use parts from it if they are any good. (any suggestions?)

6. What specific features do you need in a motherboard?
Required:
- Mini-itx form factor
- 1155 socket (I don't want a loussy atom processor)

Wanted:
- PCIe x16 slot. (I do want to insert a GPU It could be anything from just PCIe to PCIe 3.1 or newer)
- Some USB 3.0 connectors
- WiFi
- At least 2 SATA 6Gb/s
- Support for 16 Gb RAM

As I want to push the limits here I do want all these features, as well as it has to fit the case. I do not have any extra space to work with so it is gonna be tough.

7. What resolution output do you need?
As said, I want to insert a GPU. It would't be any good if the computer cant produce 1080p HD images.

8. Does this system need to fit into a particular space?
Yes, custom box that measures 175 x 280 x 140 mm

9. How comfortable are you with custom case design/modification and electrical wiring?
I am not too comfortable with charged electrical wiring, but cutting cables when I have a good scheme to follow ain't a problem. I do not want to mod a PSU though, I don't feel comfortable with that.

I will mod the case myself. I own a dremel tool, drill, screwdrivers, metal snips, soldering iron etc.

10. How important is the noise/silence of this sytem?
As quiet as possible, but really. I don't care. Power before silence.

11. How mobile does this system need to be?
Not too mobile. Actually, I don't care.

12. Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license?
Nope, but I plan on buying windows 7 64bit.

13. When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
As soon as possible, but I can wait a month or two if you know rumours about new, awesome motherboards/PSUs/Processors etc.


Thanks in advance! :)
 
I am doing a similar project at this moment -- 2600k, 16gb ram, 120gb mSATA ssd, axp-140 hsf, 6990 with dual 140mm cooler (nearly silent -- check out the xigmatek mod to the arctic cooling twin turbo). It is running at 4.3ghz full time right now, but I haven't unlocked the voltage control menu that I saw in the bios file dump... still need to learn more about modding bios as the giada does not have a removable bios chip!

Currently building a custom acrylic case, just got the thermal screw inserts :) -- looks like it's going to be right around 8.5L in volume. I figured I would build it for this video card and that should cover the envelope of just about everything (i.e. gtx 690) that will go in there in the future!
 
Z77 ITX motherboards coming out within the next few weeks. Some of these look simply superb like the ASUS P8Z77-I. I would wait.
 
Damn, that Asus board looks awesome! It actually has space to place a third part CPU cooler unlike almost all the mini ITX boards I have found so far.

But has any of you got any good PSUs that can supply power to a system like the one i described but doesn't take too much space? I won't mind an external power adapter, but that is if it has kind of the same functionality as an adapter to a laptop computer.

BTW: What are the functionalities of the Z77 chipset? When comparing to the H67 P67 and Z68 fore example.
 
Z77 is much like Z68, AFAIK. PCI 3.0 support (but you will need Ivy Bridge CPU and PCI 3 video card) and native USB3.0 are the two biggies. The real thing in ITX is that the Z68 boards were both late and shaky. This one looks far more promising especially wrt to power delivery and cooler selection. The 450W supply from Silverstone will work just fine as it has all the needed connectors including the 8 pin CPU power. You could even pair it with a GTX680. These PSUs are now V2 and don't chirp under load like the old V1.1 did. Cooling in a small case would be more of a problem I would think, especially if you are OCing beyond 4.5GHz. A closed-loop water cooler like the Antec 620 or Corsair H60 would be the best bet, if you have the space. Look to the Silverstone SG05 case as a guide of what can be done in a tight space.

Having said all that, your space requirements look EXTREMELY tight. Such a small enclosure might need a PICO PSU with external brick. You will need to give up the PCIe card and any OCing. In that case, an H67 or Q-series (mobile) board with an Ivy Bridge CPU with and internal HD4000 GPU would be the best bet. Make sure the PICO and brick can deliver at least 120W.

As a rough guide: H67/H61 are the low end. Plenty of features but no OCing or drive cacheing. P67 has no access to internal graphics but is not available in mITX. Z68 allows both OCing and drive cacheing as well as internal graphics.
 
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You are right. It is indeed extremely tight. I was thinking about a pico PSU, but I can't see how they deliver enough power to drive the whole system with just 120 watts when an effective processor alone needs 90w. Maybe I just don't know enough about the ampere aspect of it all. I'm not sure.

However, just sqeezing in a regular 500w PSU isn't a chance in h**l. I tried to insert a Silver Power SP-SS500 500W PSU just to check how much space it would take, and it is almost half the chassis, so no chance to get that one in. But that ain't ofcourse among the smalles PSUs on the market, in fact it is 207x240x96 mm.

I would really like to have enough power to run the graphics processor though! Would be no fun without it. So I will check out the silverstone PSU you mentioned!

Also, I read that the ASUS Z77-i Deluxe board would be backwards compatible with SB processors and PCIe 2.0 GPUs so that should't be too much hassle. Although I am not sure if they will release the boards before the IB processors are on the market.

EDIT: By the way! I do not plan on overclocking the machine, so I won't need extra power for cooling and such. I just want power for the components installed, and I believe I can make a relatively good airflow in the box I will use. Enough to cool down stock components.
 
I was just looking at your width measurement again -- at 175mm, you're not going to be able to use anything but a single-slot graphics card as double slot cards push the mobo/card width to at least 195mm; and single slot gpu's mean a ton of high-pitched noise.
 
How do you think it would work to cut a slim hole at the bottom of the box where the extra millimeters from the GPU can get out, and then add some height to the box with "legs" in each corner?
 
It might work, but with the size of GPU coolers, you'd probably be looking at cutting out most of the bottom (or at least a big rectangle in the middle) and would need some 1" legs. You'll also have to carefully select which dual-slot GPU you get as some have traced on second DVI slots (instead of cable linked) and cannot be modified to a single slot PCIe bracket.

Another thing you'd be fighting is being able to see the card hanging down from the front of the case. Although, depending on the case and card, you could probably make that look pretty cool, like a car with under air-dam inlets ;)
 
Thanks for the tips! Could you please show me an example of a GPU that would work with a single slot PCIe and one that won't? Haven't tried to assemble a Mini-ITX before.
 
Here is one you cannot make single slot (GTX 680 reference), you can see that the second DVI port is connected to the motherboard by a hard box

galaxy_68s.jpg



Here is one that can be made single slot (no ports in the "second row") -- gtx 580:
gtx580-1-1280x1024.jpg
 
There is a great tool for what you seem to need and its free. Google Sketchup. You can search for many PC components in the Google 3D Warehouse or visit a site Sketchup Component Collection. It will give you idea of how to arrange all the parts. Remember to post some pics of your ideas so we can check them out.
 
Well what GPU and CPU are you planning on using? If you still want that Pico PSU idea, you're gonna have to drop the video card and go with a low wattage/voltage CPU.

But if you want a GPU, you're looking at these small PSU options:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151090
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151063
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256063

Now whether not those PSUs are right for your system depends on your planned specs.
 
I have not descided quite yet. But I plan on waiting for the Ivy Bridge CPUs. possibly the Intel i7 3770T, or something near that. I am thinking the Asus P8Z77-I Deluxe MoBo. And I will try to fit those components in before I choose the GPU. If It is too tight for one I will go for the PicoPSU, if not I will have a look at those you posted above. Thanks for your help!

But, I come to think about one thing. Since I am already waiting for the Ivy Bridge processors. Does anyone know if there are rumours about any juicy new SFF PSUs?
 
SimenZhor said:
If It is too tight for one I will go for the PicoPSU, if not I will have a look at those you posted above. Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...
For a system with a decent GPU, PicoPSU is pretty much not an option.

SimenZhor said:
But, I come to think about one thing. Since I am already waiting for the Ivy Bridge processors. Does anyone know if there are rumours about any juicy new SFF PSUs?
Click to expand...
None AFAIK.
 
SimenZhor said:
I have not descided quite yet. But I plan on waiting for the Ivy Bridge CPUs. possibly the Intel i7 3770T
Click to expand...

Have you looked at the benchmarks for the HD 4000 integrated graphics built into the 3770 and 3570 Ivy Bridge CPUs? That might be enough, and if it was you could run the system on a pretty small PSU. There is some debate about whether those chips need 95W or 77W, but certainly 95W is very conservative.

The 4000 graphics will certainly handle your HD video, and you can run things like BF3 and Skyrim if you're willing to go to the low quality video settings. Might be worth considering...
 
The i7 3770T is the lowest wattage Ivy Bridge CPU as far as I know. I read it could do the job at 45 watts, but As said before, I hope to squeeze in a small PSU and not a PicoPSU. I just have one question.

There are laptops with several GPUs, HDDs, SSDs and top of the class processors. How are theese powered? I know they have huuuge power adapters, but anyway. What kind of power supply run those systems? Is it some sort of Pico PSU, but all the GPUs are Mobility series as well as low wattage CPUs?

I am just curious. As an example for the laptop above, take any alienware machine you can buy for more than 2500$
 
SimenZhor said:
The i7 3770T is the lowest wattage Ivy Bridge CPU as far as I know. I read it could do the job at 45 watts, but As said before, I hope to squeeze in a small PSU and not a PicoPSU. I just have one question.

There are laptops with several GPUs, HDDs, SSDs and top of the class processors. How are theese powered? I know they have huuuge power adapters, but anyway. What kind of power supply run those systems? Is it some sort of Pico PSU, but all the GPUs are Mobility series as well as low wattage CPUs?

I am just curious. As an example for the laptop above, take any alienware machine you can buy for more than 2500$
Click to expand...

There are 25W mobile Ivy Bridge i7 CPUs and, I believe, mobile chipset ITX boards that can use them. The power bricks of the "gaming" laptops are as big as those of the pico PSUs plus they have the battery to draw from as well.
 
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