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Hardware Calibration

M

mike_j_johnson

Gawd
Joined
Nov 13, 2004
Messages
961
Can anyone recommend a good hardware based calibrator for a NEC LCD2490WUXi-BK? I want to calibrate the monitor itself rather than deal with ICM/ICC profiles. Is this even possible?
 
All calibrators create an ICC profile (to my knowledge). However, the better calibrators also allow you to do RGB precalibration. That's where you adjust the settings on the monitor itself before the software creates the ICC profile.
 
The only way to calibrate the monitor itself is to use the SpectraView II software.
 
search the forums for colorimeter or calibration

Off hand there are quite a few including Spyder2, Huey, and Blue something or Lucie something.

These hardware calibrators create a profile; like stated before.
 
The Spyder 2 express is about $60 on amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/ColorVision-S...bs_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1198998327&sr=8-1

The Huey Pro is $100 at amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Pantone-MEU11...4?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1198998351&sr=8-4

The spyder attaches to your monitor and does a one time calibration, and then is removed, until another calibration is needed.

The huey calibrates the monitor, then is placed beside the monitor and adjusts the calibration on the fly depending on the ambient lighting in the room.

Hope that helps.

-ST-
 
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TFTCentral or something like that rated Huey above the Spyder2 Express. Sorry I do not have links.

And I don't believe you need to keep the Huey plugged in via USB. It can be put away until further calibration is needed too :).
 
On the top of the heap at 250 dollars+ is the Monaco Optix, on the bottom is the Spyder2 at 60 dollars.

Spyder2 does an avg job, but cant touch the Monaco which is designed for professoinals.
 
The SpectraView software is needed to change the internal settings of the monitor.
It does it in conjunction with calibration hardware like the spyder huey ect. (not using the calibration software bundled with the sensor)
I'm not 100% sure witch are compatible, (it should support many including the Optix)
NEC often bundles monitors with a i1display type unit.
If you get one of those the LT version should be sufficient since the sensor is identical the the more expensive gretag/xrite bundles.
 
I just purchased my first hardware calibrator a couple weeks ago, the spyder2express. I used it to calibrate my Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 930SB CRT. I was very unhappy with the calibration results using the included software. Honestly, my picture looked a lot better, when I was using my eyes to calibrate.

I know that the Spyder2 hardware is supposed to be a lot better than the software, so I downloaded a trial of ColorEyes and it made a very big difference. So now I'm not sure what to do. I was trying to find a cheap calibration solution. I didn't care if it was perfect, just as long as it was better than what I could do by eye... but even at $50, the Spyder2Express isn't worth the cost if it makes my monitor look WORSE.

So now I can either scrap the calibration idea entirely and try to ebay my Spyder2, or spend $175 more to buy the ColorEyes software. So much for getting off cheaply! If I buy the ColorEyes software, that will be $225 I've spent, all together. For that price there are several other Colorimeters I could have considered.

Keep in mind this is a 3.5 year old CRT, so probably not the best calibrating conditions for the Spyder2 software, but that is my experience with it.
 
Benny said:
The SpectraView software is needed to change the internal settings of the monitor.
It does it in conjunction with calibration hardware like the spyder huey ect. (not using the calibration software bundled with the sensor)
I'm not 100% sure witch are compatible, (it should support many including the Optix)
NEC often bundles monitors with a i1display type unit.
If you get one of those the LT version should be sufficient since the sensor is identical the the more expensive gretag/xrite bundles.
Click to expand...

Sounds like this could cost some major $$$ if I have to buy a hardware calibration unit and then software separately.

I am now reading that calibrating the monitor itself, and then calibrating through windows will not matter when playing games. Games apparently ignore the ICC profile. Is this true???? How the heck would I get around this?

By the way, I have Vista Ultimate 64 with a nVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX.
 
Why not buy the SpectraView Kit direct from NEC? It's more expensive than something like a Huey Pro, but it's supposed to support hardware calibration of the MultiSync 90 series. It's the same kit included with the SpectraView version of the 2490.

That thing that looks like a mouse in the kit picture isn't a mouse. It's the hardware calibration thingy.
 
That is probably what I will do once I get the game issue worked out. I need to know if games do indeed ignore the ICC/ICM profile because that would be a waste of money to me.

Also, if the game has something like a "use desktop setting" for gamma, etc., then would that be the only current work around?
 
Monitor Calibration Wizard can keep a persistent color profile even while in games. free.
 
mle said:
Monitor Calibration Wizard can keep a persistent color profile even while in games. free.
Click to expand...

as long as it doesnt create a NEW profile instead of the calibrated one with a colormeter, this looks like a winner.

i'll try it out and post the results later:)
 
I've owned a Spyder 2, Huey and an Eye one Display LT. The Eye one gives me the best results with the default software but the Spyder 2 does very well when using Coloreyes Display pro software.
 
So what is the difference between calibrating the monitor itself, creating a ICC/ICM profile or using the graphics card config panel to calibrate?

Also, is an ICC and ICM profile the same thing?

Finally, how do you load a ICC/ICM profile created using professional hardware/software in "Monitor Calibration Wizard" so the profile sticks while playing games? Looks to me like Monitor Calibration Wizard only allows you to create profiles through the software itself and they use a .mcw file extension.

Sorry for all the n00b questions, but this is new territory for me and I really want to understand. :)
 
Just tried the wizard with my i1 display profile, its possible to save the currently used profile and make it persistent.

I wonder if it works with the ATI CCC drivers, they threw out the profile when using 3D apps which made me get a Nvidia card since I didn't find a usable workaround...

hope i'm not completely wrong...:
A normal calibration profile will tell the graphics card / OS how the colors should be altered before being sent to the monitor.
I will also tell color aware software how the monitor displays colors.

A calibrated monitor setting will do the same altering/correction but in the display rather than the pc.
So calibrating the monitor itself will alter the monitor settings making the icc profile unneeded for most applications. (but color aware programs like photoshop will still need a profile for tasks like simulating sRGB colors on an aRGB monitor)
 
How did you get MCW to see your ICC/ICM profile? Did you have to safe the profile to the MCW installation folder?
 
The x-rite calibrated prifile loads on startup (normal windows profile) if you start the MCW it shows the curves of the currently used profile.
All you need to do is to type in a name on the right side and click save, you can then select the profile in the drop down menu.

But maybe you don't really need to use the MCW.
The nvidia drivers don't discard the calibration on their own, it only possible that the game forces an own monitor profile, and if you calibrate the monitor settings there won't be any profile to discard.
ATIs advanced driver setting on the other hand are steaming pile of colorscrewing b... (the support even admitted that the "professional" FireGL and MV drivers screw up calibration)
 
Okay, so here is my question then...

If I buy the SpectraView Kit (colorimeter and software) that NEC advertises for their LCD2490WUXi monitor and use it to calibrate the monitor itself, then why would I even stress about ICC/ICM profiles? If I can calibrate the monitor to sRGB spec, then the profiles seem pointless and there would be no reason to worry about games not using the profiles, etc. This would also make the MCW application pointless.

Thoughts?
 
Oh, and I have been playing with the Color Management config panel in Vista...noticed ICC profiles, ICM profiles, WCS profiles, etc.

I noticed these profiles have version numbers, so I did a Google search on ICC and found their official website:

http://www.color.org/index.xalter

Guess what? They have a new version of the sRGB ICC profile. I downloaded it (still using my current LG monitor) and set it to default. Then recalibrated using Windows Calibration Wizard (have not purchased SpectraView yet).

This stuff it pretty interesting....its like a whole new world of computing I had no clue about. So much to learn. I just wish it was more straight forward and simplistic.

I just want a properly calibrated sRGB display that I can play games and surf the web on and be confident nothing in the chain is messing with my calibration. Especially since I just forked out a grand for one of the best 24" monitors money can buy LOL! ;)
 
mle said:
Monitor Calibration Wizard can keep a persistent color profile even while in games. free.
Click to expand...

Dunan said:
as long as it doesnt create a NEW profile instead of the calibrated one with a colormeter, this looks like a winner.

i'll try it out and post the results later:)
Click to expand...


i checked it out last night, works like a charm, thumbs up to you man, i've been looking for something like this for a very long time:D:D:D:D

kudos
 
mike_j_johnson said:
Okay, so here is my question then...

If I buy the SpectraView Kit (colorimeter and software) that NEC advertises for their LCD2490WUXi monitor and use it to calibrate the monitor itself, then why would I even stress about ICC/ICM profiles? If I can calibrate the monitor to sRGB spec, then the profiles seem pointless and there would be no reason to worry about games not using the profiles, etc. This would also make the MCW application pointless.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Basically it has been said already but in bits and pieces. Let me summarize this so it makes more sense.

One, your LCD2490WUXi is an sRGB device. If it is properly calibrated with a hardware calibrator that is all you need to do for sRGB content (web, PC, etc).

Two, you paid a lot of extra money for your monitor and the primary feature set that drives that cost is the internal 12 bit LUT. You have to use SpectraView (if your are in the EU NEC has a different package) to profile it. In otherwords, if you use a normal calibrator it will only work with your video card LUT. By using the internal LUT, it will be persistent.

Three, you only need to worry about ICC profiles if you use coloraware programs like Photoshop and in which case you would adjust that through your color management settings within the program.

Four, preset ICC profiles like the one you downloaded are good for coloraware progams but are useless for your monitor profile. Each monitor is unique and the only way to properly calibrate it is with a hardware calibrator.

Does that make sense?
 
I think it makes sense....

So summarize what I will need to do to get perfect sRGB for games? Sounds like I get the SpectraView kit and calibrate the monitor itself...and then I am done right?

But...I am thinking I should still use Window Calibration Wizard to carry over the default Windows ICC profile into games because that is the profile that I would be seeing while calibrating the monitor itself. In other words, Windows loads the defualt profile when loading the desktop. When calibrating the monitor using SpectraView, this ICC profile is already running. (this is my theory).
 
mike_j_johnson said:
I think it makes sense....

So summarize what I will need to do to get perfect sRGB for games? Sounds like I get the SpectraView kit and calibrate the monitor itself...and then I am done right?

But...I am thinking I should still use Window Calibration Wizard to carry over the default Windows ICC profile into games because that is the profile that I would be seeing while calibrating the monitor itself. In other words, Windows loads the defualt profile when loading the desktop. When calibrating the monitor using SpectraView, this ICC profile is already running. (this is my theory).
Click to expand...

You are way over thinking this. When you use a hardware calibrator you are no longer using the default windows profile. That is what the software for your calibrator does, profiles your monitor and builds a custom profile for your monitor that will override the OS one as long as you run the supplied software.

In your case because your have monitor that is 72% gamut and designed to display sRGB, you never need to worry about it. You will always be displaying sRGB in windows whether it is the profile created by your calibrator or the default windows profile.

What the color calibrator does, whether Spectra or One Eye or Spyder, etc, is to profile your monitor to adjust for unique flaws of your monitor (every monitor is slightly different, even between the same models), measure the light in your room and generate an optimum color profile for your monitor and lighting conditions (that is why you should set up your room with consistent lighting). If you use the Spectra model because it rights to the LUT in the monitor, it will take advantage of the 12bit gamma correction. Otherwise that feature will not be used.

Whether either LUT will impact your games I am not sure. But either way you have a sRGB monitor so you really don't need to worry about it. Personally, if you don't do color correct work in Photoshop or some other design software I would just get whatever calibrator meets your budget. But to get the full potential of your monitor you need to use their proprietary calibrator (Spectra).
 
i dont see anywhere on NEC's website where you can order/purchase the spectraview software, am i not looking in the right place?:confused:
 
So the SpectraView software is to calibrate the monitor itself and the colorimeter is to be used to build a new ICC profile?

I understand now that I do not need an ICC profile if all I do is use Windows, IE & games.

Argh..I dont know why this is so hard for me to grasp. Maybe once I get the SpectraView Kit it will make more sense.
 
If you want to get technical, "CALIBRATION" is the process of setting up the monitor's attributes such as white point, black point and colour temperature.

PROFILING is the act of creating an ICC profile to characterize your individual display system (this includes the DACs on the card, and your display unit - if you get a new video card you should re-profile). The ICC profile is used to describe the characteristics, capabilities and errors of YOUR individual display system to colour-aware applications. You also need ICC profiles for any other mediums such as paper and ink combinations on printers, or film and flatbed scanners.

In a colour-managed workflow, you would scan a photo, correct for your scanner with your scanner's ICC profile, work in a given colour space (usually Adobe RGB or Prophoto RGB), Photoshop would use your monitor's ICC profile to accurately display the image on your screen, and you would print the output using the ICC profile for the ink/paper/printer combination you intend to use.

During the calibration phase you (basically) set blackpoint with the brightness control, whitepoint with the contrast control (which sets your maximum brightness) and colour temperature with, preferably, individual R, G and B gain controls from the monitor OSD.

The NEC panels use the Spectraview system to calibrate the monitor using the internal LUTs so that you don't alter the card output with an ICC profile. Compensating in 12-bits in the monitor means you don't shrink or distort the colour space which can be presented by your display card. If you bought a NEC LCD that can use Spectraview and you're into colour critical apps, get the proper tool that will use the internal LUTs.

I do plenty of Photoshop work and use an Optix XR colourimeter and X-Rite EZColor profiling software to calibrate and profile my GDM-F520. Using any of this technology just for games would be, IMO, unnecessary.
 
Thanks for the info everyone. Bare with me though ;)

So Windows, Internet Explorer & Games are not *color aware* apps. This would mean that I do not need to worry about creating an ICC profile. The default ICC profile Windows uses and/or the default profile installed with the monitor driver will suffice since these will be sRGB.

Therefore, I only need to calibrate the monitor itself.

Which tools do I need to do this? (Both the SpectraView software AND the colorimeter? ...just the software? ...or just the colorimeter?)



***And it sounds like the "Windows Calibration Wizard" freeware app would only be useful when playing games if I wanted to use a special ICC profile other than the Windows default. So that app is not needed like I thought earlier ...right?
 
mike_j_johnson said:
Thanks for the info everyone. Bare with me though ;)

So Windows, Internet Explorer & Games are not *color aware* apps. This would mean that I do not need to worry about creating an ICC profile. The default ICC profile Windows uses and/or the default profile installed with the monitor driver will suffice since these will be sRGB.

Therefore, I only need to calibrate the monitor itself.

Which tools do I need to do this? (Both the SpectraView software AND the colorimeter? ...just the software? ...or just the colorimeter?)



***And it sounds like the "Windows Calibration Wizard" freeware app would only be useful when playing games if I wanted to use a special ICC profile other than the Windows default. So that app is not needed like I thought earlier ...right?
Click to expand...

yes, you will need both a colormeter and the spectraview software.

once you calibrate your monitor the software will create an ICC profile, and thats the one windows would use from that point forward until some app you use doesnt use that profile (like games). if you played a game, windows or the game wont use your calibrated profile, and will default to the way the monitor looked before you calibrated it. some dvd software wont use color profiles either.

all the monitor calibration wizard does is forces the game to use the calibrated profile, which is really good if you're into gaming. it makes the game look how the developers intended.
 
mike_j_johnson said:
So Windows, Internet Explorer & Games are not *color aware* apps. This would mean that I do not need to worry about creating an ICC profile. The default ICC profile Windows uses and/or the default profile installed with the monitor driver will suffice since these will be sRGB.
Click to expand...
Yes, as long as your monitor is 72% that is true. Your monitor so you are good. If you had a wide gamut monitor you would have problems.

mike_j_johnson said:
Therefore, I only need to calibrate the monitor itself.
Click to expand...
That is all you would ever calibrate. Any other color profile changes would be made within a color aware program using that programs color management.

mike_j_johnson said:
Which tools do I need to do this? (Both the SpectraView software AND the colorimeter? ...just the software? ...or just the colorimeter?)
Click to expand...
A monitor calibrator (they all come with software). All of the free software apps simple do not work because your brain adapts too quickly.

Sounds like you bought more monitor then you need.:D No worries its a solid monitor. You want to calibrate the only accurate way to do it with a hardware calibrator (Spyder 2, Eye Display, Spectra, Huey, etc).

If you just playing games, etc you should stick to something like the Huey, Spyder 2 or Eye One Display 2. None of those should run more than $200 and the Huey can be had for $50 on Ebay.

If you are not willing to pick one up and insist on using freeware solution. Use it only to adjust your gamma. Its the only thing that you could adjust close to right manually. Adobe Gamma does this that comes with Photoshop and their turns of freeware and websites that can help you do this as well. A gamma of 2.2 is what you want.
 
My package, EZColor, puts an app in the startup which loads your monitor's ICC profile into the LUT of your video card and does some correction of the windows display for non-colour aware apps. It's not perfect, as it would be within a colour-aware app, but it is an improvement. Frankly, on my GDM-F520, the colour is so close that the profiles only contain minor corrections.

When I futz with the Forceware color correction tab, it merely seems to erase this loaded profile and set it back to default.

Colour-managed workflow is intended to ensure that colour is maintained during an entire process. You're trying to make sure that an image looks the same on the screen as it does on the source picture/slide/film, and looks the same on the printer as it does on the screen. The process does this by profiling errors and variances. (Of course, devices don't share the same colour gamut - range of colours that can be displayed - which means that further transformations are necessary to adapt one device to another. That's another story).

The fact that IE isn't colour managed bothers a lot of photographers. Their product looks different on each different monitor with no consistency and it is not able to represent any colour spaces other than sRGB. If you accidently post an AdobeRGB photo on a website it looks washed out and lacks saturation when interpreted as sRGB by the web browser.

Soooooo... :) Games have no "correct" reference colours that you're trying to preserve. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. I doubt my "bioshock" experience differs much on a profiled display.

My recommendation remains - if you have the budget, and the monitor capable of performing its own calibration - get the Spectravision. If you don't want to limit it's use to your current NEC monitor, then look at something else (ie. multiple displays in the house, family, friends, the next monitor you buy etc....) The discontinued EZColor suite that I have comes with an excellent colorimeter (which works with all kinds of software) and everything you need to calibrate and profile a monitor, scanner and printer.

I could probably dig up some URLs specifically on colour-managed workflow if it is of enough interest. You'll need to look away from hardware forums and towards photography forums to gain the best understanding, I think.

Yes, I'm Canadian, and colour is spelled "colour" up here :)
 
Holy cow. I just tried that Monitor Calibration Wizard and I wish I had done it sooner. My notebook LCD was way too bright or something because now my blacks, greys, and whites look a hell of a lot clearer/vibrant.

It also seems like my viewing angles have improved. I don't know how, but they appears to be clearer.

Thanks.
 
So I got the NEC LCD2490WUXi monitor and I have calibrated with NEC SpectraView II and the X-Rite eye-one display 2. The ICC/ICM profile has been added in the Color Management panel in Vista Ultimate 64. I also got a 6500K 90 CRI bias light (like I use for my HDTV) for the back of the monitor.

Words cannot explain how good this monitor is. Worth EVERY penny! :D

It even allows me to turn off scaling and HDCP so I can now turn off scaling in the nVIDIA control panel again. That has bothered me for over a year and I have read it is broken because of HDCP. Well it works when you turn HDCP off! I dont watch movies on my PC, so this rules for gaming in non-native resolutions. :)

So, I have been experimenting with Monitor Calibration Wizard in games and honestly, I cannot tell the difference when forcing the default Windows ICC/ICM profile in games. Is this because SpectraView II calibrates the actual monitor?
 
Congrats! :D

Don't waste time with monitor calibration wizard. Your screen will do the job for you also in games.

You can have several LUT calibrated profiles in Spectraview 2. One you can have exclusively for gaming. Just select it within Spectraview 2 and it will load it into the screen and automatically also adjust brightness and such. If Spectraview 2 is anything like Spectraview profiler, it will also calibrate the color of black for you so that black looks black regardless of brightness settings, the same way white looks white upon calibrating white point:
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1031926469&postcount=1219

Thats probably why NEC advertises "CRT like blacks". It calibrates black so that black doesn't turn grey at any point and are not so dependened upon brightness.
 
This is very interesting and I'm glad I found this under one thread. I have much to learn.

Does anyone have any experience with either the NEC 2490 or 2690 on a Mac Pro? I'm thinking of getting the 2690 on the new Mac Pros.
 
mike_j_johnson said:
So I got the NEC LCD2490WUXi monitor and I have calibrated with NEC SpectraView II and the X-Rite eye-one display 2...
Click to expand...
Tamlin is right, you only need to use the software that came with your SpectraView kit. That would be all you need to profile your monitor's LUT.

You should either refund, sell or use your X-rite another monitor because your Spectraview makes it unnecessary.
 
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