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HardOCP ATI CrossFire Preview

AznAnarchy99 said:
i would have liked it to support a pcie crossfire card and agp cards also = (
Click to expand...

agp doesn't have enough performance or double slots on mobos

there is no NV SLI for agp either
 
AznAnarchy99 said:
i would have liked it to support a pcie crossfire card and agp cards also = (
Click to expand...

Nvidia has said that they've waited to introduce SLI on PCIe boards because AGP is simply
not able to provide the bandwidth needed for what they wanted...I think that ATI has came up
with the same feeling so no AGP for you...though it would cool to see a dual PCIe mobo and
and AGP slot to boot...running 6 monitors would be killer

The thing I think nVidia is gonna have to do is follow ATI's way of being able to use different
card GPU's and brands, and being able to enable it via a bios setting is more elegant than a
bridge board...

I've known people who had problems with SLI because even though the cards they were using
were the same type and brand...the board revisions were not the same so SLI wasn't able to work.

Those Crazy Canadians were able to see what was available and improve upon it...as a
good company should...now lets see how nVidia come back with their improvement most
likely next year.

Nicely done article...was easy for my brain to understand. :)
 
kuyaglen said:
The thing I think nVidia is gonna have to do is follow ATI's way of being able to use different card GPU's and brands, and being able to enable it via a bios setting is more elegant than a bridge board...
Click to expand...

not to mention the non-reliance on game profiles

the ability for it to just work in every single game new and old is most impressive IMO

we'll see if it really does work that way once we get samples of course
 
I think Dave over at B3D says it best:

On the whole, though, we are left scratching our head a little as to why ATI are taking this route right now. Obviously designing and developing the board support and platform support, as well as getting all the software ready, with a good level of compatibility, takes its time, however this would have made far more sense to be releasing in this form 3-6 months ago.
Click to expand...

Nice article Brent, I'm sure it's just as annoying for you as it is for us that you can't get any benchmarks yet...

Anand got to run Doom3...and at high resolution they got an 85% improvement..not too shabby...

Anand pointed out that the southbridge is buggy as hell though...and doesn't have the features that the nforce4 does...

Personally, unless R520 is released at the same time with Crossfire...it's not even going to matter...cuz G70 is right around the corner...and you can bet SLi G70s will spank x850xtpe's with crossfire...not to mention I"m not too keen on ATI motherboards...

ATi has their work cut out for them at retail...I think they just plain gave nVidia too much of a head start...I really wanna see what thier super AA modes can do...that's the one positive aspect I can see...brilliant idea there...otherwise...R520 is the only thing that's going to pull this out...

Without R520, nobody is going to drop the cash on a Crossfire x850 and a buggy Crossfire motherboard just to get less performance than SLi'd G70s which are rumored to be shipping in 2 weeks...
 
Brent_Justice said:
not to mention the non-reliance on game profiles

the ability for it to just work in every single game new and old is most impressive IMO

we'll see if it really does work that way once we get samples of course
Click to expand...

I think we'll see ATi having the exact same problems as nVidia in the support department...they can't break the laws of physics...

When they say they work with all games...I think they're referring to the super AA modes which are driver independent...everything else seems subject to the same limitations as SLi...
 
It is funny though, as ATI criticized nvidia's hardware bridge between the cards as "ineligant". An external dongle just makes me cringe.

I can't wait to get some hands on with this tech though...seems like two X850's would be pretty sweet, not to mention dual R520s...

My only real fear is ATI's ability to product the "master cards" in enough quantity...I mean when tough to find ATI gear is a problem, you can usually pick up a Sapphire/Connect3D board...not this time.
 
^eMpTy^ said:
I think we'll see ATi having the exact same problems as nVidia in the support department...they can't break the laws of physics...

When they say they work with all games...I think they're referring to the super AA modes which are driver independent...everything else seems subject to the same limitations as SLi...
Click to expand...

Go back and check out how it works. In all D3D applications SuperTiling will be used unless Catalyst AI determines a different mode would be better for those games.

In OGL Scissor is the default mode that is used in all games unless Catalyst AI determines a different mode is better to use.

So all games (new and old) according to ATI will be receiving the performance benefit of CrossFire by default, with no interaction from the user.
 
I think their are positives to the dongle and negatives.
I dont mind it per say but I would have to agree that I would like to see a little PCB like item as Nvidia has. I mean we are [H]ard computer builders here I dont think any of us has a problem with taking out a tiny little PCB now and then.
I cant wait to see how it performs.
 
Brent_Justice said:
Go back and check out how it works. In all D3D applications SuperTiling will be used unless Catalyst AI determines a different mode would be better for those games.

In OGL Scissor is the default mode that is used in all games unless Catalyst AI determines a different mode is better to use.

So all games (new and old) according to ATI will be receiving the performance benefit of CrossFire by default, with no interaction from the user.
Click to expand...

Yeah but isn't supertiling way less efficient?

blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...I WANT NUMBERS...:)
 
{NG}Fidel said:
I think their are positives to the dongle and negatives.
I dont mind it per say but I would have to agree that I would like to see a little PCB like item as Nvidia has. I mean we are [H]ard computer builders here I dont think any of us has a problem with taking out a tiny little PCB now and then.
I cant wait to see how it performs.
Click to expand...

For anyone that does multi-monitor on a regular basis...the dongle is nice because you can switch up the config without opening the case...

However, if nVidia pulls their head out and makes multi-monitor work while setup for SLi...then they'll be golden...no swapping dongles...
 
Ahh, so we do maintain dual monitor with this setup if I read it correctly?

Its nice and overall I think the system is better, but in all honesty I think it might just be slightly slower. We'll see though.

Also, when it comes to the chipsets for both Crossfire and SLI, its really just Nvidia and ATi being assholes about it and not really a need at all besides the chipset supporting the PCIe slots being split into two 8x?
 
Brent_Justice said:
Go back and check out how it works. In all D3D applications SuperTiling will be used unless Catalyst AI determines a different mode would be better for those games.

In OGL Scissor is the default mode that is used in all games unless Catalyst AI determines a different mode is better to use.

So all games (new and old) according to ATI will be receiving the performance benefit of CrossFire by default, with no interaction from the user.
Click to expand...

That's all well and good, but tiling offers the least performance increase, and scissors is lower than AFR as well?

Nonetheless, I'm all for solutions like this, even with wacky dongles and master/slave nomenclature.

I think Empty hit it on the head though- too little, too late for the enthusiast market. Most of us have already bought SLI and aren't going to change for the ability to tile GLQuake. I also have the feeling this is going to look slow when G70 SLI hits the market next month.

Who's going to spend $569 + $400 + mobo cost +psu to get 32 pipes of SM2 with a dongle when they can spend $550 X 2 + cost of more full featured mobo/mature tech+ psu to get SM3 and 48 pipes?

Like I said- why? To run some old games that you can play over 100 fps anyway on a single high end card?
 
^eMpTy^ said:
Yeah but isn't supertiling way less efficient?

blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...I WANT NUMBERS...:)
Click to expand...

Well there is obviously no way to know. SuperTiling is way better at load-balancing however.

BTW the E&S cards use SuperTiling.
 
Rollo said:
That's all well and good, but tiling offers the least performance increase, and scissors is lower than AFR as well?
Click to expand...

Again, it's yet to be seen yet. I feel the same way, I want to know real world performance gains. Once we get hardware we'll find out, until then just keep speculating, heh.

Anand's test with DOOM 3 in OGL (which uses Scissor) showed an 86% increase over a single card at 1600x1200 4XAA in HQ mode.

BTW AMR is the only mode that actually scales up vertex processing. Both SuperTile and Scissor only scale up pixel performance.
 
Brent_Justice said:
Again, it's yet to be seen yet. I feel the same way, I want to know real world performance gains. Once we get hardware we'll find out, until then just keep speculating, heh.

Anand's test with DOOM 3 in OGL (which uses Scissor) showed an 86% increase over a single card at 1600x1200 4XAA in HQ mode.

BTW AMR is the only mode that actually scales up vertex processing. Both SuperTile and Scissor only scale up pixel performance.
Click to expand...

Indeed, time will tell. Where's your G70 SLI preview? ;)
 
I'm gonna wait until I see the performance charts before I decide what I'm putting in my new rig, but from what I saw in the preview, it sounds like Crossfire is overall better technology than SLI.

However, as far as the real world impact, I agree with the person who said "too little, too late." The G70 is supposedly going to be on the shelves around the end of june which is before the crossfire even comes out. Crossfire has the potential to take the lead back from the NV40 not the G70. ATI needs to be concentrating on their new chip on nVidia's going to mow right through them via G70. I also have a feeling that nVidia is going to bring a few upgrades to SLI as well this round.
 
Rollo said:
Indeed, time will tell. Where's your G70 SLI preview? ;)
Click to expand...
:rolleyes: Please don't start another fan-boy battle. Just for once, try not to.

I think that, just like SLI, this thing is nothing more than a rich-man's toy or a poor-man's future upgrade path. For the average gamer, you can't beat a good single-card solution. The fact that you have to use a BBA Master Card (lol) and an ATI chipset motherboard is scaring me away. I just haven't heard enough about the ATI chipsets to trust them, and BBA cards always seem harder to find than Sapphire/Connect3D/MSI cards. I dunno, I'm not going to say anything more until I see numbers.
 
Brent_Justice said:
Well there is obviously no way to know. SuperTiling is way better at load-balancing however.

BTW the E&S cards use SuperTiling.
Click to expand...

Way better at load balancing, but it can't scale geometry and there's much more duplicatoin of texture info since it splits across many lines instead of one...

If it worked faster than AFR and SFR...then there wouldn't be SFR and AFR...
 
sac_tagg said:
:rolleyes: Please don't start another fan-boy battle. Just for once, try not to.

I think that, just like SLI, this thing is nothing more than a rich-man's toy or a poor-man's future upgrade path. For the average gamer, you can't beat a good single-card solution. The fact that you have to use a BBA Master Card (lol) and an ATI chipset motherboard is scaring me away. I just haven't heard enough about the ATI chipsets to trust them, and BBA cards always seem harder to find than Sapphire/Connect3D/MSI cards. I dunno, I'm not going to say anything more until I see numbers.
Click to expand...

oh come on...it wouldn't be any fun without !!!!!!s and you know it...

BTW...Brent...I still want my name changed from hard gawd to "NV !!!!!! President"
 
http://www.ati.com/products/crossfire/faq.html

5. What motherboard is required for a CrossFire system?

A. A Radeon Xpress 200 CrossFire edition motherboard is the optimal platform for CrossFire. CrossFire is also compatible with Intel chipsets that offer multiple x16 physical slots. Chipset support is affected by the level of technical collaboration between the various vendors, and limited quality assurance resources require that we prioritize bringing a particular platform to market.
Click to expand...

7. Will CrossFire Edition cards work in an NForce 4 motherboard?

A. ATI is focused first on qualifying our chipsets with our GPUs. We’ll evaluate Nvidia solutions in the future.
Click to expand...

12. Will CrossFire Edition cards work with SurroundView?

A. Yes, the CrossFire platform will work with ATI’s SurroundView multi-monitor technology to enable up to 5 separate displays.
Click to expand...

19. What rendering modes are used when?

A. By default either SuperTiling or Scissor modes are applied. Alternate frame rendering mode is used for applications identified in Catalyst A.I. (when enabled). When Catalyst A.I. is disabled, 16-pipe graphics processors running D3D applications are accelerated by supertiling mode (other configurations are accelerated by scissor mode). Super AA mode is enabled through the control panel.
Click to expand...
 
^eMpTy^ said:
Way better at load balancing, but it can't scale geometry and there's much more duplicatoin of texture info since it splits across many lines instead of one...

If it worked faster than AFR and SFR...then there wouldn't be SFR and AFR...
Click to expand...

Scissor mode doesn't scale geometry either. Only AFR offers that, but AFR has its own problems, like not being able to do render targets.

What it comes down to is that obviously there is not one single mode that will work the best for every single game on the planet. So there are 3 options the drivers can choose in order to give a performance benefit with two cards.

We shall see how well it does that when we get them.
 
Brent_Justice said:
Scissor mode doesn't scale geometry either. Only AFR offers that, but AFR has its own problems, like not being able to do render targets.

What it comes down to is that obviously there is not one single mode that will work the best for every single game on the planet. So there are 3 options the drivers can choose in order to give a performance benefit with two cards.

We shall see how well it does that when we get them.
Click to expand...

So I guess ATi will have the same driver profile non-sense as SLi, only they have the super-tiling method as a fallback...that's pretty cool...

lol...this is getting really complex...
 
^eMpTy^ said:
So I guess ATi will have the same driver profile non-sense as SLi, only they have the super-tiling method as a fallback...that's pretty cool...

lol...this is getting really complex...
Click to expand...

No profiles though, the Catalyst AI does it, itsself. No there's nothing to worry about, and everything at least gets a boost. So overall it is just slightly better in that aspect.

There seems to be much more driver level work with Crossfire than SLI, I'm guessing mainly do to the fast that ATi had a lot longer to work on it.
 
Skrying said:
No profiles though, the Catalyst AI does it, itsself. No there's nothing to worry about, and everything at least gets a boost. So overall it is just slightly better in that aspect.

There seems to be much more driver level work with Crossfire than SLI, I'm guessing mainly do to the fast that ATi had a lot longer to work on it.
Click to expand...

Well I think ATi got beat to the punch with multi-gpu by 6 months (will end up being 9 before crossfire is actually out) and they know it...so they are throwing everything + the kitchen sink in to compete...which is kinda dizzying...but if it all works...it should be tons of fun to play with all the different options...

Personally ATi's implementation seems kinda thrown together...Nvidia seems to be developing SLi as a technology built into their cards...and ATi seems to be hacking together a stop-gap solution to compete...

Kinda like Intel dual core vs AMD dual core...sure the Intel stuff is fast...but it's much less graceful than the AMD implementation...

Nvidia's implementation...with the connector inside the case...and the compositing done on the chip...just seems more elegant...may not be more elegant in use (driver profiles are a pain and such) but in design, definitely cleaner...

Has anyone seen anything else about R520?
 
Once we get samples and I begin testing hopefully I will learn more about how Catalyst AI actually determines what mode is best for each game.
 
I'm very excited to see some real world tests on this stuff. If it werks like they say it will I will be very very impressed. Enough so to invest in it for sure!! :)
 
Brent_Justice said:
Once we get samples and I begin testing hopefully I will learn more about how Catalyst AI actually determines what mode is best for each game.
Click to expand...

Brent, from your perspective...what's your take on the fact that you don't have samples yet? Do you know when you'll be getting one? Is it wierd to paper launch it like this at computex? Or is it normal to paper launch at a show then do a real launch later?
 
This looks tight. I like the idea of not having to worry about profiles. Ati may be on to something good here. :)
 
i do have a question though...

if the master card is a r520 card (sm3.0 etc...) and the slave card is a x800 card (sm2.0b) what happens when you play a sm3.0 game?
 
I think you're correct in some parts Empty, but to me the ATi solution just seems more put together the more I think about it.

It allows dual monitor, can work on other chipsets it looks like, doesnt need profiles, has 4 modes, and I personally really like the external dongle though I understand how you might not like it.

Either way, come G70 I think Nvidia will have a better solution, one that will easily match Crossfires benefits and keep the current SLI benefits too, though that's not the say ATi wont have something more too. Fun fun, cant wait for this summer to really kick in gear. :D
 
pandora's box said:
i do have a question though...

if the master card is a r520 card (sm3.0 etc...) and the slave card is a x800 card (sm2.0b) what happens when you play a sm3.0 game?
Click to expand...

I doubt you'll be able to mix those, as there are some master cards that dont work with some slaves already.
 
Ok, so with G70 shipping to AIB partners in 2 weeks...how many people are going to want to buy an ATi motherboard and wait for the master cards to come out so they can setup a crossfire rig?

I mean...you want to drop like $500+ for a system that will likely be slower and definitely have less features than G70? Am I missing something?

Can I see a show of hands?
 
Skrying said:
Either way, come G70 I think Nvidia will have a better solution, one that will easily match Crossfires benefits and keep the current SLI benefits too, though that's not the say ATi wont have something more too. Fun fun, cant wait for this summer to really kick in gear. :D
Click to expand...

Oh god I know...I'm like a little kid right now...

BTW...while I'm rambling on these boards...I'm parsing videocard websites for data to stick in my uber videocard database...:)

I'm up to 270 reference cards...and I think I just passed 1000 retail cards...
 
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