burningrave101
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mohammedtaha said:
Maybe you should read the posters response before you reply.
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Half Life 2 Benchmarks @ HardOCP.com
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Maybe you should read the posters response before you reply.
burningrave101 said:
I fully agree that the performance during gameplay is all that matters. However, some fragments of the game are more intensive than the rest of it. Those parts sometimes also happen to be key scenes, and it may reduce the overall gaming experience if these scenes are not displayed properly.
And btw I'm not an ATI fan, if someone offered to trade my 9800Pro for a new-tech/same-price card (e.g. 6600 GT) I would accept without thinking twice.
mohammedtaha
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this is going no where ... Nvidia's supporters are too stuck up in Cloud 9 they can't see past their eye lashes ..
They defend whatever they can even if it was the dual slot issue they have even though the ati cards are still running a lot cooler at higher speeds ... oh well .. I'm not gonna argue anymore ... Since these guys spend time looking up threads to fight back against Ati like it was a war against terror ...
I never said Ati is better than Nvidia nor did I say Nvidia was better than Ati .. They are only better in what certain games !! Each one has an advantage in some game over the other ...
Whatever you got .. be happy with it .. but if you're gonna play a certain type of game over the other and lookin for the best performance at certain resolutions then do your own reasearch and don't post on the forums cause ur thread will be polluted by idiotic stubborn brain washers ...
PEACE
They defend whatever they can even if it was the dual slot issue they have even though the ati cards are still running a lot cooler at higher speeds ... oh well .. I'm not gonna argue anymore ... Since these guys spend time looking up threads to fight back against Ati like it was a war against terror ...
I never said Ati is better than Nvidia nor did I say Nvidia was better than Ati .. They are only better in what certain games !! Each one has an advantage in some game over the other ...
Whatever you got .. be happy with it .. but if you're gonna play a certain type of game over the other and lookin for the best performance at certain resolutions then do your own reasearch and don't post on the forums cause ur thread will be polluted by idiotic stubborn brain washers ...
PEACE
CastleBravo
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burningrave101 said:
Bingo. If making the benchmark more like the actual gameplay hinders your product's performance, its abstract "superiority" doesn't mean shit.
by the way i read something about nvidias dual slot solution, just for evryones info ati's single slot solution days are over, there next refresh XT PE will not only have dual slot cooling it will be pci-e only, at least nvidia was start enough to implement the bridge chip
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19813
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19813
burningrave101
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mohammedtaha said:
Have you seen the new X850 that ATI is supposed to release in January 2005? Its a dual slot solution lol.
Its extremely entertaining how ATI and ATI users continue to put down features nVidia employs only to later include those features in their own product.
mohammedtaha
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burningrave101 said:
i know about it .. and the only reason they are doin it is because it makes the cards run a lot cooler and allow for higher speeds .. that's it ... I was one of the first people to read the article and I wasn't talkin about the present .. i'm talkin about the past ...
burningrave101 said:
I don't necessarily agree with that, better performance in more limiting situations may be indicative of future performance in more demanding games... We all want a good investment. However, an indication isn't a foolproof prediction either, that much is clear.
The situations where the difference between the cars is marked the most isn't exactly any flippant stressful scenes within the game but flippant stressful scenes with 4x+ AA at 1600x1200, etc. Something you would not necessarily use in future games with the same card (since the game would demand more from it than current ones).
No one's fully evaluated what is it about those particular things in ATI's timedemos that makes the ATI hardware perform better either. Maybe HL2 just makes heavy use of a rare shader you're not likely to see very often or maybe it isn't even properly implemented in NVidia's driver. Where's the min-fps evaluations? Haven't seen anyone do those tests.
OpenGL performance is a valid point and anyone that thinks D3 is the only OpenGL game out there should do their research based on the games they're currently playing. It's quite feasible ATI's hardware could perform better in OpenGL, but to this day that hasn't changed enough so that they are comparable to NVidia in that area. Maybe the same will hold true for HL2 performance.
Regardless, there's other external issues such as the different price points which haven't been filled in or the fact that some of the budget solutions are still PCIe only.
People are preaching this performance battle like it holds true across the board thru the full product line of both companies as if everyone out there buys the top-of-the line card. In the end it's not that important 'cept for bragging rights, and the card that ends up on most user's machines is probably determined by some OEM deal rather than performance.
CastleBravo said:
A contradiction in terms here. A benchmark test is different from a performance test per def. Benchmarks should be designed to bring out max performance of a group of products, regardless of "real world" conditions, in order to rank and select products(e.g. video cards). Performance tests should be run with simulated "real world" conditions, allowing for combined effects of interacting product groups, in order to optimise the selected product for a specific application (e.g. HL2). There is nothing abstract about this.
burningrave101
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mohammedtaha said:
And exactly how does that differ from the reason that nVidia used a dual slot cooling solution on the 6800U?
mohammedtaha
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burningrave101 said:
Nvidia did it because the card was HOT in the first place and it only made it a little cooler and even then people are buying the NV5 replacing the original dual slot ...
Ati's move might have been done because they noticed many people buying the Ati Silencer because their cooling solution was blowing the hot air into the system rather than out ...
Any more questions Nvidia's #1 fan ?
tranCendenZ
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burningrave101 said:
ATI = Official Flip Flopper of graphic card industry
List of ATI flipflops:
--
#1 - Brilinear filtering
2003 - Brilinear filtering is a low quality cheat!
2004 - Brilinear filtering is trilinear filtering evolved and the new standard!
#2 - Application specific optimizations
2003 - We would never optimize for a specific app, that is cheating!
2004 - We are optimizing for specific apps to give our users the best results (cat 4.10)
#3 - Shader replacements
2003 - Shader replacements are a cheat!
2004 - We have implemented shader replacements for optimal performance (cat 4.10)
#4 - SLI
Mid 2004 - SLI is not useful, takes up too much power and is too expensive
Late 2004 - ATI SLI will be out next year!
#5 - Dual slot cooling
2003-Mid 2004 - Out competitor requires massive cooling fans that take up 2 slots
Late 2004 - Our new 2 slot cooler provides optimal performance
#6 - DX9 compliance
2003 - Code for the DX9 standard, don't use extra features that aren't part of it
2004 - Check out our Geometry Instancing and 3DC, the former of which is not DX9 compliant as our card is not sm3.0, the latter of which is not a part of DX9 at all
********
predictions for next year
- Flip flopping on FP16/FP32
- Flip flopping on Shader Model 3.0
- Flip flopping on OpenEXR HDR
burningrave101
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mohammedtaha said:
lol...
The reason ATI is going with a dual slot solution is because their X850 core will be HOT in the first place and i'm sure it will only make it a little cooler at best. ATI wouldn't go with a dual slot unless their card was starting to get too hot for a single slot solution.
You sure have some interesting ideas though lol.
Brent_Justice
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^eMpTy^ said:
doesn't every big company out there?
i thought this was a common occurance in business, marketing, PR, etc...
the whole point is to make your product look good
^eMpTy^ said:
I concur, very well said.
I will say it again... it wont be soon till we see games made just for certain videocards.
ATi and nVidia both keep not following the OpenGL and D3D API standards and making up their own off the wall shit.
CastleBravo
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jon67 said:
I think you 100% misunderstood my post.
CastleBravo said:I think you 100% misunderstood my post.
I obviously failed to get my message through.
The overhead between the max capacity of a card determined in benchmarks and the utilised capacity during gameplay is not abstract. The overhead capacity can easily be measured and is an indication of stability and an assurance against failure under stress.
Overhead requirements given by law appear in virtually all industrial standards. The idea of designing oil rigs or ships without an overhead in material strength to meet unforeseen events would appear as crazy. Although seeing your fps drop to 20 for a few seconds every now and then may not be as heartbreaking as a ship w/crew sinking in the mid-atlantic...
NEVERLIFT said:I concur, very well said.
I will say it again... it wont be soon till we see games made just for certain videocards.
ATi and nVidia both keep not following the OpenGL and D3D API standards and making up their own off the wall shit.
Won't happen. As much as you may think current implementations differ they're really not that extremely opposite... All we're seeing is performance differences and competition which is good for the industry (same way P4s and A64s achieve performance in far different ways).
The indutry already went thru a stage when certain games only ran on certain cards (see: 3dfx's Glide API and early OpenGL) and it grew out of that stage. We're not seeing "off the wall shit", just different ways of implementing stuff which often gives better performance or IQ. As much as people like to bitch and moan about these differences the games still run fine on most of ATI/NVidia's hardware.
The Doomguy
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Impulse said:
Bingo. Nvidia tried to do their own DX9 shit last generation and got their balls handed to them. This generation ATI tried to break the mold with PS2.0b and got bitch-slapped by Microsoft for it.
Not only that but MS is pushing pretty hard for XNA and the overall unification/extermination of the gaming API scene.
Brent_Justice
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MS is crackin down on its validation of graphics for Longhorn from what I hear
with WGF 1.0 hardware validation of 3D features is much more strict if you want to have that seal of certification from MS
with WGF 1.0 hardware validation of 3D features is much more strict if you want to have that seal of certification from MS
Bubba The Barbarian
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spyderz said:Mr Bennett, just wanted to let you know how much i like your website, but the best thing of all is how you respect the opinions given here in the forums and how you always try to keep things calmed up in here, but there have been a few that i have also been dissapointed with due to there position i guess i expected a different attitude, i can take being called a fanatic (this always happens when you have an answer to there answer or you have an awnser they can't explain right or explain it to us simple folk in simple terms) but one thing i can't stand is this (
*update* yea where i come from, this shit is true
Um, relax maybe. Yeah, that is it. Seriously, I have never seen such a large goup of whiny folk in my life! No experts, they might be biased, no rolling eyes, I will kick your ass, no disagreeing with me, cause I know how read a roadmap on the Inq damnit!
Most the pathetic whining pisses me off. Both companies have their good and bad points in both areas of drivers and hardware. It's about EVEN people, get the hell over it. BTW, if I was a professional driver maker, or tester, or whatever, and came in here and got thrown at, you bet your ass I would throw back. It is called PRIDE in WHAT YOU DO, and if you have any kind of self-assurence at all, you know both sides of every issue, know your weaknesses, but have every damn right in the world to be proud of what you're good at. ATI is damn good in some areas, not so good in others, but it is you morons so stuck on perfection that ruin stuff for other people. You read a roadmap and feel that you should be able to get 3 more FPS out of the setup, and you want the driver to fix it. I used to test SCSI drivers and those were hard, I cannot imagine what goes into a video driver.
I just love the trolls here and their "I AM SO RIGHT ABOUT ALL" thing. Get over yourselves and stop being bitter about the fact that only binary you see in working day is a chicken nugget next to a recently flipped burger.
Impulse said:
That Solid Gear game that came out a while back did not run on ATi cards and they said they had no plans to support ATi cards... I'm not sure what has happened since? If I got the time today I will look into it and see if they ever got it working on ATI cards.
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Well, I don't want EVERYONE to leave, just him.Jonsey said:
This SocketA guy just keeps picking and picking and picking and quite frankly I am tired of it. And he knows what he is doing. So in a way he wins."Yawn!!! No doubt [Hard]Ocp is rushing to get thier SLI benchmarks done so they can show Nvidia beating ATI. Who cares..."
I posted that yesterday!!! What did I say that was not true? You have your SLI benchmarks finished one day later. "But look what happened when we upgraded the single GeForce 6800 gt to an SLI configuration. We managed to achieve a playable quality setting of 1600x1200 2XAA/8XAF on our dual GeForce 6800 gts matching the Radeon X800XT-PE in quality settings and beating its performance across the board! Of course we have $300 more invested in video card technology as well, so you should expect better performance."
There is no question that a single GeForce 6800 GT now can match X800Pro performance in FarCry, and a GeForce 6800 GT SLI setup can beat a Radeon X800XT-PEs performance."
Well Duh, Kyle. Two 6800GT's beating one X800XT PE by an average of 6.1 frames per second. Holy snap! Alert the media! That's big news you shouldn't only have it bolded, you should have that written in italics and doubled the font size. "Of course we have $300 more invested in video card technology as well, so you should expect better performance." This statement should have been bolded. Your review of SLI did one thing, show us why it is not needed. I expect ATI's multirendering to echo that remark. This statement was taken from your Half Life 2 benchmarks "As for calling one video card a "winner" over the other, it just does not seem feasible and would likely be irresponsible to do so." All though the XT PE wins in almost every category you could not declare a winner? The fact that you chose to bold two 6800GT's beating one XT PE in Far Cry by an avg of 6.1 frames per second, shows biased reviewing. I never considered myself to be a !!!!!! in any way until reading your lame, predicteable reviews. Both you and Brent use 6800Ultra's in your rigs, True? of False? How do I know that to be true? Not from any post either of you have made, but from reading your reviews done over the past several months. I have no problem in vacating your site or the army of 13 year olds you call a forum. By the way Kyle, I always win!
I posted that yesterday!!! What did I say that was not true? You have your SLI benchmarks finished one day later. "But look what happened when we upgraded the single GeForce 6800 gt to an SLI configuration. We managed to achieve a playable quality setting of 1600x1200 2XAA/8XAF on our dual GeForce 6800 gts matching the Radeon X800XT-PE in quality settings and beating its performance across the board! Of course we have $300 more invested in video card technology as well, so you should expect better performance."
There is no question that a single GeForce 6800 GT now can match X800Pro performance in FarCry, and a GeForce 6800 GT SLI setup can beat a Radeon X800XT-PEs performance."
Well Duh, Kyle. Two 6800GT's beating one X800XT PE by an average of 6.1 frames per second. Holy snap! Alert the media! That's big news you shouldn't only have it bolded, you should have that written in italics and doubled the font size. "Of course we have $300 more invested in video card technology as well, so you should expect better performance." This statement should have been bolded. Your review of SLI did one thing, show us why it is not needed. I expect ATI's multirendering to echo that remark. This statement was taken from your Half Life 2 benchmarks "As for calling one video card a "winner" over the other, it just does not seem feasible and would likely be irresponsible to do so." All though the XT PE wins in almost every category you could not declare a winner? The fact that you chose to bold two 6800GT's beating one XT PE in Far Cry by an avg of 6.1 frames per second, shows biased reviewing. I never considered myself to be a !!!!!! in any way until reading your lame, predicteable reviews. Both you and Brent use 6800Ultra's in your rigs, True? of False? How do I know that to be true? Not from any post either of you have made, but from reading your reviews done over the past several months. I have no problem in vacating your site or the army of 13 year olds you call a forum. By the way Kyle, I always win!
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SocketA said:
Haha, got YOU.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass. I officially declare myself the winner this time. You lose..at least this once.
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And by the way. I totally agree with you on the fact that SLI is not really "needed," but I do very much figure that many will want the 6600 GT setup. It is just sweet to game with and leaves a great upgrade path as the expensive cards come down in price.
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And yes, I have a 6800 in my box now. It replaced a X800Pro that replaced a 9800XT, that replaced a 9800Pro, that replaced a 9700Pro. I have a tendancy to use what is best.
I have to go for a couple of hours but I will return to address some of your other baseless ranting.
I have to go for a couple of hours but I will return to address some of your other baseless ranting.
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Time to get the popcorn and read this interesting topic
When someone is so stubbon like SocketA, anything fun is coming out of them. The problem is that they didn't want to watch the bigger picture and bash us like any !!!!!! out there.
When someone is so stubbon like SocketA, anything fun is coming out of them. The problem is that they didn't want to watch the bigger picture and bash us like any !!!!!! out there.
I got a 6600GT AGP version from XFX and its pretty damn sweet card. Ya it dont give ultra high fps but man it can lay the smack down and stay smooth and playable at high res with AA and AF on. Very impressed with this card. It's not much faster than the 9800 pro it replaced but at higher res and with AA and AF on it just smokes my 9800 pro o/c past XT speeds. I'm gonna see about o/c the 6600GT this evening with Rivatuner.
tranCendenZ
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SocketA said:
Don't worry man, I'm sure ATI will get their act together for next generation, they just didn't expect NV to be able to pack in the same performance and add more features, too, after the FX disaster. Now they know better.
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Sorry to be a nitpick but how this specs is working :
This show how you are standing on ice on this last statement
Is it true that at lower resolutions, refresh rate is usually higher, not lower ?
This show how you are standing on ice on this last statement
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