[H] ATI X1000 (R520) Series Eval.

I swtiched over to ATI cards when the 9500's came out. I have been holding out with my current 800XL(Another card I read about for months on line until it actually showed up in stores!!!) waiting for ATI's new batch to come about.
I've been wanting to go SLI for a while and all the braging ATI has been doing over crossfire I decieded to wait.
In seeing that the performace does not do much to trump nvidia and I could purhcase a Motheboard and card today. I DID JUST THAT.
I am now the proud owner of a MSI NEO4 PLAT MB and a nice LeadTech 7800GTX(Hopefully to be 2X soon!).
I for one am completely sick and tired of companies(not just ATI) lauching products that never appear or appear months after all the press has hit about them. Nvidia did good this time around and are getting my $$. Lets hope they keep it up. Congrats to HardOCP to for calling ATI out on this practise, I hope they will continue to do so for others who follow suite. :D
 
WTF is up with all the reviews lately turning in to a flamewar and bitchfest. I guess b/c you've added the "Please join us in our forum thread to read what others have to say and of course share your own thoughts and feelings." link at the bottom, people think that means, come bitch about how you didn't like the review in our forums!

What makes a review site good is their "conclusions" and personal take on it. (good or bad) And all these ATI fans are bitching that you're not jumping up & down saying its the best thing since sliced bread.
 
jebo_4jc said:
Lol pwn3d

The dude did bring up a good point, though. Since x1800 beats 7800 with fewer pipes, that means ATi is getting more work done per pipe. Seems like the architecture has some real potential when they iron out the manufacturing process and enhance their drivers.
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Buddy what are you smoking, more work per pipe? In fact i think its doing less work, lemme explain.
The x1800xt has 16pipes/rops running at 625 mhz, while a 7800 gtx has 24 pipes BUT only 16rops running at 430mhz.
x1800xt @ 16pipes/rops x 625mhz = 10000 pixel/sec fillrate
7800 gtx @ 24 pipes x 430mhz = 10320 texel/sec fillrate
or 7800 gtx @ 16 rops x 430mhz = 6880 pixel/sec fillrate

Coupled with 1200mhz memory compared to the blazing 1500mhz memory on the ati card, the gtx is more than likely more efficient. I'd really like to see 1500mhz memory on a gtx and see how it does.
 
chrisf6969 said:
WTF is up with all the reviews lately turning in to a flamewar and bitchfest. I guess b/c you've added the "Discuss this in our forums" link at the bottom, people think that means, come bitch about how you didn't like the review in our forums!
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actually it's just that (your) type of posts that actually does start/bait the real flames. i saw a few flame type posts but not really much of anything that you haven't typically seen from other forums and the threads started about reviews. you will always have people that for some reason or another like one brand better over another and you can see or sense a bit of that in their subjective style posts. usually sooner or later you see the post that actually tries to start it (and sometimes does) like yours, trying to make an issue out of normal hot-hardware-opinions.
 
forcefed said:
Buddy what are you smoking, more work per pipe? In fact i think its doing less work, lemme explain.
The x1800xt has 16pipes/rops running at 625 mhz, while a 7800 gtx has 24 pipes BUT only 16rops running at 430mhz.
x1800xt @ 16pipes/rops x 625mhz = 10000 pixel/sec fillrate
7800 gtx @ 24 pipes x 430mhz = 10320 texel/sec fillrate
or 7800 gtx @ 16 rops x 430mhz = 6880 pixel/sec fillrate

Coupled with 1200mhz memory compared to the blazing 1500mhz memory on the ati card, the gtx is more than likely more efficient. I'd really like to see 1500mhz memory on a gtx and see how it does.
Click to expand...

and a 625MHz core speed, could you imagine a 625/1.5GHz 7800 GTX :eek:

you make an excellent point about efficiency
 
robberbaron said:
So, let's get this straight.

The 7800GTX showed up at MWave the Saturday before the card officially launched (and they removed it from the site until late Sunday night)

The 7800GTX launched that monday in June and was shipping in full volume by that time.

We have the X180XL not showing up in any stores right now as something we can purchase, despite it being launched fully.

Why is anyone taking ATi seriously?
Click to expand...

ATI will NOT see the demand for their cards like they saw for the X800XTPE. Let Dell be the stupid ass and pick up all their cards again.

ATI had a chance to shine after looking like a goat and they blew it. First impressions are key in situations like this and they dropped the ball.

We don't want a card that equals the competition. We want a card that blows the doors off the competition.

Personally I think that nvidia and ATI are sleeping together. Every card that comes out from either one of them pretty much is the equal. Nobody taking a big lead, nobody falling too far behind.

It's all crap and were the idiots falling for it.
 
forcefed said:
Buddy what are you smoking, more work per pipe? In fact i think its doing less work, lemme explain.
The x1800xt has 16pipes/rops running at 625 mhz, while a 7800 gtx has 24 pipes BUT only 16rops running at 430mhz.
x1800xt @ 16pipes/rops x 625mhz = 10000 pixel/sec fillrate
7800 gtx @ 24 pipes x 430mhz = 10320 texel/sec fillrate
or 7800 gtx @ 16 rops x 430mhz = 6880 pixel/sec fillrate

Coupled with 1200mhz memory compared to the blazing 1500mhz memory on the ati card, the gtx is more than likely more efficient. I'd really like to see 1500mhz memory on a gtx and see how it does.
Click to expand...

Finally! Someone who brought up clock rate with pipes! That is how it has always been used, it's used in damn theoreticals muliplied by clock rate then benched to see if the rubber meets the road, and the way it has to be used. An ATi fan can still surmise that ATi is getting more efficiency in the games it excels in, but to me you it's nice to draw that conclusion with the theoreticals in mind. In other words, it's ok for brent to say pipes don't matter because of how many x factors there are... but "OMG 16 beats 24", when the deficiency by statistics ISN'T even there.... just shows you don't know what is going on! So even on paper, this 16 IS giving this 24 a run for it's money.

OMG 16 beats 24 in DX games, is the equivalent ratarded statement of OMG 430MHz beats 625MHz in OGL!!! Both instances, the old theoretical equations show more how that would be possible. Saying these things shows a lack of understanding of the underlying concepts. For these people: Do not pass go, do not collect $200, try reading, then arguing. :)
 
robberbaron said:
So, let's get this straight.

The 7800GTX showed up at MWave the Saturday before the card officially launched (and they removed it from the site until late Sunday night)

The 7800GTX launched that monday in June and was shipping in full volume by that time.

We have the X180XL not showing up in any stores right now as something we can purchase, despite it being launched fully.

Why is anyone taking ATi seriously?
Click to expand...
So lets get this straight...........you want each company to never lie about anything? Always tell the truth? very very nice point you bring up to say tho! nice try in downing ati.

fact is, ATI, love em hate em, they will be here a while yet.........and for you people who are "0mf0r0g0z0bbq in love with nvida" remember........when theres no competition.......there wont be a need for nvidia to make better/faster/cheaper cards.....

IE windows........m$...........yeah.........IE..............yeah.........nuff said

soulsaver
 
Looking through some of the reviews I have realized one thing

NONE of them show any overclocking ><!!!! did you guys not OC the cards because of time restaint or other reasons?
 
ok some afterthoughts... after reading the review twice i noticed a couple of issues. prior to the second reading and the 3 new pages of forum posts i had thought the review was flawless. One thing which isnt that big is the issues with leaving out the XT. I agree with H's reasons for leaving it out but, after a doublecheck its a PREview not a REview. So in that sense, maybe H shouldve included some XT benches. I know there is a time issue with testing these cards and i understand if that was the main reason but it also seems deliberate due to availability. Its an issue but i think should be much less of an issue when dealing with PREviews.

You guys makes an excellent point on optimizations between pipelines and clock speed for the GTX and 1800. cheers.

I have read H since 01 and the same with anandtech. that "sli" combo for my techie fix is damn good. you're an idiot if you wish to express an opinion based off of one source. period. I still like reading the H, and highly value their opinions and have been around long enough when they were accused of takin money from ati then nividia, then ati, and now it seems nvidia is in bed with them. a lot of yous must be young or really hate to read and/or remember what you read.
 
Dissaaaaaapointed.....Not likely to swap out my new PE anyway so I'm keeping out of this *but* Nvidia has regained the crown. And quite frankly my dear, I just don't give a damn :rolleyes:
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
Looking through some of the reviews I have realized one thing

NONE of them show any overclocking ><!!!! did you guys not OC the cards because of time restaint or other reasons?
Click to expand...
that was explained already.... reading helps


also can everyone agree 7800 beats 1800 sometimes, and 1800 beats 7800 sometimes, performance wise? Since performance is out of the picture it should be other things on why people get the card. Right now it seems that the x1000 series seems a bit more future proof but then again i have a 6800NU and will probably get a 7800GT now. I never personally liked ati's driver interface and prefer nvidias dual monitor cp. So as long as the nv card doesnt get raped, i'll probably keep buying nvidia.

card history TNT, TNT2, GF3, GF4200, 9800 Pro modded to XT, 6800NU - so dont come at me with any bias bullcrap.
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
Looking through some of the reviews I have realized one thing

NONE of them show any overclocking ><!!!! did you guys not OC the cards because of time restaint or other reasons?
Click to expand...
Probably would void the tiny little warranty. :p
 
XamediX said:
that was explained already.... reading helps
Click to expand...

I just read through the 4 pages of flames and actual posts, where was it explained 0.0?

Nvm I found it ~.~ thought he was addressing the 7800GT OC, rather then OCING the card, what can i say Im a Canuck =p
 
Matt126 said:
Apparently you haven't been around here very long. You're right, the [H] is biased. BIASED TO WHAT IS THE BEST CHOICE AT THE TIME. It's called an opinion, and it's up to you who to trust. I've been reading this website for 4 years, and I've seen the coming and going of many technologies. The [H] ALWAYS bases their opinions on factual data, I can assure you of that. They will recommend to you, the consumer, the best there is to offer at the present time. If you think that they're being paid off to give these reviews, then you're horribly mistaken, and I hope you take your unfounded opinion elsewhere.

Kyle's principles are morals are what makes this site the one that I trust the most. The legal troubles he went through alone solidified this for me.

While I do not always agree with their new review tactics, I know why they're implementing these changes. e.g. fewer or no A2A comparisons.

On a side note, I would have liked to have seen some X1800XT numbers. I know a lot of people might waiting around to see if they should buy an X1800XT. Nonetheless it was a very well written article as I've come to expect from Brent. Well done.

-Matt
Click to expand...

Brent is nothing more than Kyle's trusted little sidekick. Kind of like Mutt and Jeff. He writes what he is told and does so willingly. I found the review misleading, clearly favoring one side as always.
 
Digital Viper-X- said:
I just read through the 4 pages of flames and actual posts, where was it explained 0.0?

Nvm I found it ~.~ thought he was addressing the 7800GT OC, rather then OCING the card, what can i say Im a Canuck =p
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Haha dun worry cause i went back to look to make sure and i couldnt find it until the 4th time i reread all the pages. honest mistake, and i retract my snotty retort. sorry man.

edited - please dont feed the trolls
 
DandyBear said:
Brent is nothing more than Kyle's trusted little sidekick. Kind of like Mutt and Jeff. He writes what he is told and does so willingly. I found the review misleading, clearly favoring one side as always.
Click to expand...

You use the phrase "as always" very loosely. How many years have you been following this site? If you have actually been paying attention you'll notice they favor whatever side is in the best interest of their readers.

If you think they're the puppets of big corporations, then go read somewhere else.You'll be doing all of us a favor. I hope you find the most perfect and honest hardware site on the planet. Hey, maybe you should start your own.

-Matt
 
I take it that the overclock of the 7800GT you guys felt did not make any performance difference than a stock 7800GT? Yes I know I know you ahve said that the GTOC is the bestselling video card in North America but shouldnt a stock card be run up agianst its stock competition? Any way of getting the XL to overclock to the same percenrtage of the BFG OC and compare the two?

Im not asking for an apples to apples push button test benchamrk you say other sites do, but to run YOUR testing methods on a stock to stock comparison NOT the best selling to what we believe will be best selling comparison.

It probably would have been better to just say that you didnt get anything but an 1800XL and 1600XT rather than say would prefer to review a card that is further from release than the XT which is closer to release because the release of the XT is too far away. I understand why you chose what you did but you defineatly are never gonna hear the end on that one.

I take it that when you receive review samples you only get x amount of time with them? If thats so then I dont think I would ever do a reivew on anything that I couldnt take my time with and do a full complete job. Just sucks for you guys that there are plenty of other websites that will do anything a vendor asks.
 
i think the main reason no overclocking tests were done is due to:
1 - time
2 - why overclock some sample card that could be cherry picked and expect that to be relevant to what we can buy?
 
Dandybear, if you don't like this place, LEAVE. You aren't keen on the stuff we go over here so then go somewhere else.

As for the review. I've yet to read other sites' reviews, but here's my opinion on why HardOCP did what they did:

Kyle and hardOCP want what's best for us. Not what's best for nVidia, ATI, AMD, Intel.

Hell, if ATI all of a sudden shipped 3000 X1800XT's tomorrow, I'd bet you'd see that review up there lickety-split. With flying colors. But the fact is, that if I were in HIS position, and one of the biggest players in the market kept sending me things to "release" knowing full well that it's just a useless PR gesture... Yeah, I'd get beefed too.

The fact is HardOCP is BIASED...

Biased to what's GOOD for us, the consumers. I used to be an ATI supporter, my 9600pro served me long and well. And it serves my friend now just as good. But the fact is, I have a 6800gt in my machine because it's BETTER. Better price, better availability, better in many aspects. I would LOVE to turncoat on Nvida because ATI released a better card, that was available. But the fact is, they aren't, and they're trying to get thier PR sites to indicate otherwise. And that's backfiring...

Continue to keep up the good work. Hopefully ATI will give us a reason to put thier cards in our machine soon enough.
 
Whys there never any p4's included in test systems anymore.? Yeah i know the amd chips run games faster yapyapyapomfgjizzz etc but theres plenty of people with p4 setups that are likely interested in one of these boards but never get the chance to see how they perform till they go and buy the card. :(
 
DandyBear said:
PDF presentation? Did ATI send [H]ardocp an XT? I am willing to bet you every dollar Nvidia sends you in advertising they did. I am currently reading several reviews done by several competing sites and they were able to provide benchmarks. ATI is clearly behind Nvidia in production, and are deserving of criticism, but didnt ATI design a completely new architecture? Nvidia really did little more than increase the pipelines. Your bias is so apparent in your reviews its almost blatant.
Click to expand...

and your bias ruins the respectability of this post. Little more than increase the pipelines? I suppose that means that the only difference between the 9700 and the X850XTPE is a few more pipelines. Because that's what you're saying. I guess we should feel sympathy for and not criticize nVidia's FX line because they designed "a whole new architecture" based on a smaller process (110nm).

The 7 series has a LOT more difference than more pipelines from the 6 series.

Jbirney said:
I can understand and respect that. Just that your users here are more interested in the high end. Unless your telling me that your average Joe HardOCP is not a user interested in perfromance as I thought this forum/sited caters for the High Res, High detial, SLI, ect? I guess if your time was limited then you COULD have when with the x1800xt since it more aligns to what your users are looking for and its out first, then folllow up with a x1600 when its closer to being shipped??
Click to expand...

Actually the majority of [H] users have 6800GTs, at least according to the 3d Mark 05 poll here. And 7800GT's are quite popular now. I think that it was a GOOD idea to do a THOROUGH analysis of the 1800XL and 1600__ instead of a more spread out review of everything at once.

I am perfectly fine with waiting a week for an XT review since the first ones won't be here for another 3-4 weeks after that.

And [H] gave links to MANY other sites that had reviews on the XT (and the rest of it), so what are you complaining about? It's not like Kyle didn't give you any information on it. Quite the opposite.

zone_86 said:
i happen to think that the x850xtpe was better than all of the 6' class nvida cards as brent suggested that those nvida cards were better. sm 3.0 path was not difinitive and quantifiable in games - it's still not at this point even now. where nvida actually made the difference was with the 6600gt (pricepoint-performance) and the 6800nu (extra pipes to be unlocked-pricepoint) - sm 3.0 really didn't matter to those people either imo.
Click to expand...

He wasn't talking about teh x850xtpe. That was a refresh afterwards. The competition to the 6800U is the x800xtpe (or just xt maybe).

Chris_B said:
Whys there never any p4's included in test systems anymore.? Yeah i know the amd chips run games faster yapyapyapomfgjizzz etc but theres plenty of people with p4 setups that are likely interested in one of these boards but never get the chance to see how they perform till they go and buy the card. :(
Click to expand...

there shouldn't be much of a difference if your proccessor is decent. games these days aren't cpu bottlenecked.
 
I read the review backwards and now I listen to death metal and want to kill my parents.




ANYWAY, how hot are these cards GPU's getting under load @ stock speeds? Do the coolers seem to be up to par? I don't guess [H] would be interested in tearing one off to look at the thermal paste and quality of mounting.

The heat sink is made of copper so the video card is heavy. The fan, however, is very small. In operation, there are two fan speeds, a slower speed, which is not very loud, and a higher speed, which is very loud. In fact, the fan speeds up and speeds down between these two speeds frequently, even when the card is in idle 2D mode. What this means is that, even at idle, the GPU is getting hot enough to cause the fan to spin up to higher speeds to cool it down. It shouldn’t come as a surprise then that this video card gets very hot during a full load situation such as gaming.
Click to expand...

Reading this, it doesnt sound like the beta drivers support temperature monitoring. True? What about something like ati tray tools, are they working with the cards yet?


aka: lets talk about the cards folks.
 
Chris_B said:
Whys there never any p4's included in test systems anymore.? Yeah i know the amd chips run games faster yapyapyapomfgjizzz etc but theres plenty of people with p4 setups that are likely interested in one of these boards but never get the chance to see how they perform till they go and buy the card. :(
Click to expand...

I am sorry but we simply do not have unlimited time and resources. As for our decision to use the AMD system, it is based in the belief that it will be a less CPU-lmited machine keeping the CPU from bottlenecking video card performances.
 
Aaron_ATX said:
I read the review backwards and now I listen to death metal and want to kill my parents.




ANYWAY, how hot are these cards GPU's getting under load @ stock speeds? Do the coolers seem to be up to par? I don't guess [H] would be interested in tearing one off to look at the thermal paste and quality of mounting.



Reading this, it doesnt sound like the beta drivers support temperature monitoring. True? What about something like ati tray tools, are they working with the cards yet?


aka: lets talk about the cards folks.
Click to expand...

Actually we do a lot of that if you read our evals, but in this case, these are samples and would very likely not be representative of retail products. The retail products will come.
 
nice review..

sucks that the XL can't even romp a GT... ati will have to lower prices like fast for it to be competitive.

though HDR with AA is like a dream

and yeah in terms of looks ATI wins (imo of cource)
 
So... another loss for ATI? When do they file for bankruptcy again?

*sigh* So disappointing they can't get it right.
 
Very nice detialed review... But its very disappointing. Its always nice to see jumps from ATI and Nvidia playing this game of tennis....But it looks like Nvidia are holding there own this round. The prices are totally stupid and I think anyone who buys these cards over Nvidia are stupid as well.

Good on you ATI for wasting our time :D (Soo.... 2x7800GTX's please..Thank you :))
 
ATI did not lose in terms of what the cards can do. If you read the reviews the 1800 series is a decent product. The problem that ATI faces is that no product is available now and they are playing catch up in that NV will most likely (IMO) have a refresh out by the time the XT is widely available and the pluses of what it can do will be lost on the fact that something else can be had at a better price point that offers near the same performance. IMO once the cards are available in mass in comes down to what brand do you like more than a "one card whoops the other" and ATI going bankrupt. They do (I think) still have some loyal customers.
 
Russ said:
The competition to the 6800U is the x800xtpe (or just xt maybe).
Click to expand...

The X800XT Platinum Edition was directly competitive to the rare and lustrous 6800 Ultra Extreme. I don't recall actually ever seeing a 6800UE in the wild, but I'm sure some others have. Probably the single biggest graphics card paper launch of all time, and while others quit dallying in the dark arts of paper launches, ATi still seems to believe that it's quite alright. Of course, SLI X16 was announced a fair while ago, and we still haven't seen hide nor hair of that little full-bandwidth gem, but that's another issue altogether.

On the subject of [H] not publishing any X1800XT results, I think it's only suitable. I think it's time to stop benchmarking equipment that your average Joe can't actually buy, and as usual, I think [H] will be the first to adopt such a widespread policy.
 
I imagine that paper launches are starting to make it much harder for HardOCP to review only retail product as paper launches now occur several months ahead of retail product.
 
BoogerBomb said:
I imagine that paper launches are starting to make it much harder for HardOCP to review only retail product as paper launches now occur several months ahead of retail product.
Click to expand...
only when it comes to ati products it seems.....
 
Not fan hate etc. but just some ideas/facts:
(1) Cards not available now, but they will be soon... however nvidia has rather set a benchmark for the future...
(2) The nvidia card and the ati card (1800xt and 7800gtx) are essentially the same, with a couple of fps going both ways. however...
(3) the x1800xt is more expensive, it is dual slot...
(4) according to many reviews including anandtech.com the avivo system is not as good as pure video
(5) we have not yet seen performance with whql 8xx drivers
(6) who knows how much more due to lack of ability the crossfire edition card will cost...
(7) nvidia will bring outa 512mb version soon....however as we have seen with the 1800xt the extra does not do much
(8) it just seems that the 7800 chip is better, as it can achieve the same as the r520 running cooler, smaller and with lower memory and much lower clock speeds....

however
ati does have an entire family at its disposal...but the nvidia cards are often better still for example the 6800 ultra beats the x1800XL in many tests, however the x1600xt i do not know.

of course only time will tell, however i just cannot see many buying this more expensive, and essentially same performing card as nvidias. unless they are overclockers trying to break the 3dmark 05 record. other than that, why pay £80 more for an as good performing card.

yet these are early days, and the price will come down. BUT by the time it is in enough quantity to have come down properly nvidia will have brought out the 90nm g72, which due to their new precedent will be available on release, thus continuing the saga anew.

in conclusion, though i do not see a downfall in the high end, i do see something similar for the next year as happened with the 9700 pro v. 5800.... close between them, but after a bad year in the high end 6800vx8x0 support wanes for a while....

2 cents
f
 
I didnt read pages 2 throu 8, but common, AA with HDR! For some resolutions the power probably isnt their, but for people like me with small screns (my screen is max 1024) this is great. Unfortunately I wont be buying either a 7 or X1000 series, my 6800gt is what i have to rely on. (which isnt that bad, considering my max res)
 
BoogerBomb said:
Will you do another comparison when retail products hit the shelves?
Click to expand...

I think we almost always do. We usually do not revisit the ATI brand, but the others we do.
 
phide said:
The X800XT Platinum Edition was directly competitive to the rare and lustrous 6800 Ultra Extreme. I don't recall actually ever seeing a 6800UE in the wild, but I'm sure some others have. Probably the single biggest graphics card paper launch of all time, and while others quit dallying in the dark arts of paper launches, ATi still seems to believe that it's quite alright. Of course, SLI X16 was announced a fair while ago, and we still haven't seen hide nor hair of that little full-bandwidth gem, but that's another issue altogether.

On the subject of [H] not publishing any X1800XT results, I think it's only suitable. I think it's time to stop benchmarking equipment that your average Joe can't actually buy, and as usual, I think [H] will be the first to adopt such a widespread policy.
Click to expand...

If you look back we would not publish 6800 "UE" results either as we thought it was bogus....and we were right.
 
BoogerBomb said:
I imagine that paper launches are starting to make it much harder for HardOCP to review only retail product as paper launches now occur several months ahead of retail product.
Click to expand...


Well, first off, I do NOT expect every company to have retail product the moment they launch. For NVIDIA to do it with a single product is a HUGE undertaking, and they are to be commended for it. That said, I do expect the product to actually be in retail within a few weeks unless specifically told otherwise.

ATI with their non-stock PE cards then their non-existant CrossFire, contrary to their rhetoric, was just getting the cart WAY too far in front of the horse. ATI needed to be reeled in a bit. I hope we are getting someone's attention this week.
 
AA functionality with HDR depends on the implementation. Valve's current 4.12/fp16 MRT technique, for instance, allows AA for a broad range of GPUs. I don't believe that just because NV40/G70 doesn't support AA with the OpenEXR format doesn't necessarily mean you can apply such a broad statement as "No AA with HDR on nVidia hardware" as ATi has stated in some of their PowerPoint slides.
 
I'm happy that there is nice competition between the two companies,
if there wasn't, Nvidia wouln't have released the 7800GTX for us
to snag :p
 
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