GTX 460 rumored on the way...

[Bona Fide]

Let's be honest guys - ATI really dealt a low-blow by first raising the MSRP of the 5850/5870, then undercutting to $260 with the 5830. Of course nVidia had to price their 470/480 relative to the 5850/5870 (don't ask me why the prices aren't identical), but they basically positioned their cards in between the 5850, 5870, and 5970 in terms of price.

Now they've got a 460 that they think is going to fall somewhere between the 5830 and 5850 in performance, so they want to price it accordingly. I'm just mad that the 5850 is not $260, the 470 is not $300, and ATI/nVidia are showing no intention of dropping the price soon.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Yep, screw AMD and their "lets release in September, have no competition, and price themselves according to supply and demand" mentality

 

[Michaelius]

It always amazes me that ATI is so loved on boards despite killing whole 48x0 family and replacing it with lower performing 57x0 parts at higher price points. Even when they are spitting in customer face with 5830 at 4890 performance and 50-60 bucks higher price.

 

[kirbyrj]

It always amazes me that ATI is so loved on boards despite killing whole 48x0 family and replacing it with lower performing 57x0 parts at higher price points. Even when they are spitting in customer face with 5830 at 4890 performance and 50-60 bucks higher price.

BUT It supports Eyefinity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd be interested in a GTX 460 depending on price/peformance (as always).

 

[ELox]

Let's be honest guys - ATI really dealt a low-blow by first raising the MSRP of the 5850/5870, then undercutting to $260 with the 5830. Of course nVidia had to price their 470/480 relative to the 5850/5870 (don't ask me why the prices aren't identical), but they basically positioned their cards in between the 5850, 5870, and 5970 in terms of price.

Now they've got a 460 that they think is going to fall somewhere between the 5830 and 5850 in performance, so they want to price it accordingly. I'm just mad that the 5850 is not $260, the 470 is not $300, and ATI/nVidia are showing no intention of dropping the price soon.

The first company out of the gate gets to set their prices and it's the competition that is supposed to drive prices down when they are released. This time around it's clear that ATI was first out of the gate (first 40nm, dx11 multi monitor cards). Having an extra 6 months development is usually enough time to make a better bang for buck performer and therefore drive down prices, we haven't seen that from Nvidia as they are closely on par for price/performance and prices are conveniently staggered from ATI's offerings.

Considering the 470 and 480 don't have a better price/performance ratio and also use more power and create more heat and don't have their multi monitor capability turned on yet, ATI is less inclined to lower their prices if they are still selling well. OR it could be that Nvidia is taking a chunk out of their sales because people like their driver support, physx, and 3d surround despite the other cons and ATI can't lower prices because the 40nm yields from TSMC are killing them and Nvidia.

Just my 2cents.

 

[ELox]

It always amazes me that ATI is so loved on boards despite killing whole 48x0 family and replacing it with lower performing 57x0 parts at higher price points. Even when they are spitting in customer face with 5830 at 4890 performance and 50-60 bucks higher price.

I guess I should have bought a 4870 instead of my 5870 since you say the 4000 series performed better and cost less?

If I really wanted a 4000 series experience I could underclock my card, run all my games in dx10 instead of 11, and unplug my extra monitors.

If the 5000 series wasn't a performance/feature improvement there would not have been 6 million sold. Use your head man.

 

[kirbyrj]

Actually, he didn't mention the 58XX cards...just the 57XX which are at the same price points as the old 48XX cards. His argument is that the equivalent performing 5XXX parts are more money than their previous counterparts and actually underperform the old 48XX cards. The 5830 is the most eggregious example since it's $240+ and performs like the $175 4890.

I guess I should have bought a 4870 instead of my 5870 since you say the 4000 series performed better and cost less?

If I really wanted a 4000 series experience I could underclock my card, run all my games in dx10 instead of 11, and unplug my extra monitors.

If the 5000 series wasn't a performance/feature improvement there would not have been 6 million sold. Use your head man.

 

[ELox]

Actually, he didn't mention the 58XX cards...just the 57XX which are at the same price points as the old 48XX cards. His argument is that the equivalent performing 5XXX parts are more money than their previous counterparts and actually underperform the old 48XX cards. The 5830 is the most eggregious example since it's $240+ and performs like the $175 4890.

What are you talking about, the 5830 is a 58xx card which he specifically pointed out.

Are you really comparing the end of life price of a 4890 to the initial release price of the 5830. At release the 4890 was $230 and even now the only 4890 I can see on newegg is $200 not $175. So right now you can get a 5830 for 40 bucks more than a 4890 and you get way more features. Not to mention the 5750, 5770, 5850, and 5870 are all great price/performance cards with great features, you can't just pick 1 card (5830) and pretend like that's the entire ATI lineup. The 5000 series is about offering a better gaming experience (dx11, eyefinity, etc.) and it is selling very well because that's what people wanted. If you don't want the extra features you can buy a 4890 for $200, it's nice to have options.

I don't even know why I'm bothering with this ridiculous argument. How about you tell me where the Nvidia cards are that offer similar features and outperform the 57xx series for same or less money??? Ya that's what I thought.

 

[kirbyrj]

I'll make this simple for you because you're not paying attention:

4870 = 5770 performance
4890 = 5830 performance

4870 = $100, 5770 = $150
4890 = $175, 5830 = $230

While the costs have gone up, the performance hasn't. Please don't whine about my random price figures because they are fairly accurate if you shop around and look for deals (and even cheaper if you buy used cards). Yes, you there are other features like Eyefinity and DX11, but on those lower end parts aren't quite as big of a deal. No one is contesting the fact that the 5850/5870/59XX are all better parts.

 

[Digital Viper-X-]

It always amazes me that ATI is so loved on boards despite killing whole 48x0 family and replacing it with lower performing 57x0 parts at higher price points. Even when they are spitting in customer face with 5830 at 4890 performance and 50-60 bucks higher price.

I don't know what kind of twisted logic you're on, but ATI / AMD is in this for the money, keeping older cards around doesn't really push sales, where as new cards do, even if they perform the same.

Either way, how can you complain about this? How about the 8800GT 9800GT GTxxx bullshit, along with the 8800GTX 9800GTX GTS250 ? and that's not even next gen, it's same gen renamed.

Here lets look at it this way, NV releases the 9800GT, which costs around the same if not more then an 8800 GTS 512, and performs worse.This is nothing new.

The way Chips are manufactured, it would make no sense for AMD to continue to produce 4xxx series cards.

I'll make this simple for you because you're not paying attention:

4870 = 5770 performance
4890 = 5830 performance

4870 = $100, 5770 = $150
4890 = $175, 5830 = $230

While the costs have gone up, the performance hasn't. Please don't whine about my random price figures because they are fairly accurate if you shop around and look for deals (and even cheaper if you buy used cards). Yes, you there are other features like Eyefinity and DX11, but on those lower end parts aren't quite as big of a deal. No one is contesting the fact that the 5850/5870/59XX are all better parts.

This is almost as bad as the post I originally replied to,
Can the 4890 support DX11 games?
Can the 4890 support eyefinity?
What card does the competition offer @ the price range of the 5830?

No
No
and nothing
so AMD can set the price since there is NOTHING to compete with.


Are you 2 going to complain about NV selling the GTX285 for $400+ while the 4890 was just barely over $200 and trading blows with the GTX285? I guess not

 

[kirbyrj]

I didn't make any mention of Nvidia cards. I vote with my wallet simply on price/performance. Right now, Nvidia isn't there. Will they be in the future? Probably. I haven't had an Nvidia card since the 9800GTX+ (which at the time was somewhat cheaper than a 4850). Once the 4850 was cheaper, I bought one of those, then traded it out for my current 4870.

All I was pointing out was that at the lower end cards 5 series cards, which 1). aren't going to run Eyefinity well and 2). which won't run DX11 well, there is little point in getting one over a similarly performing 48XX part. The only reason why I'd get the 57XX part is maybe because it uses less power, but you can buy an awful lot of electricity for the $50 it costs to "upgrade" from a 4870.

Once you move to the higher end parts, yes, there is more benefit.

PRICE/PERFORMANCE FTW! - that's all I'm getting at.

 

[kllrnohj]

4870 = $160, 5770 = $130
4890 = $200, 5830 = $230

Fixed.

Seriously, you are ranting about price and yet the ONLY price you got right was the 5830.

 

[kirbyrj]

Fixed.

Seriously, you are ranting about price and yet the ONLY price you got right was the 5830.

This is why I don't ever come to the video card section of this forum

If you're paying $160 for a 4870 or $200 for a 4890 you're paying too much and not looking around. Likewise, if you're paying $130 for a 5770, you found a good deal. The average price is closer to $160.

 

[kllrnohj]

This is why I don't ever come to the video card section of this forum

If you're paying $160 for a 4870 or $200 for a 4890 you're paying too much and not looking around.

Then link to a *NEW* 4870 or 4890 at the prices you quoted. Go on, do it. Time to put up or shut up.

Likewise, if you're paying $130 for a 5770, you found a good deal. The average price is closer to $160.

Right there in the list, $130: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131328&cm_re=5770-_-14-131-328-_-Product

Although that is the 512mb model, heh. For the 1GB you're looking at $150.

 

[FrgMstr]

Edit: Nevermind. I am saying things I should not.

 

[kirbyrj]

Then link to a *NEW* 4870 or 4890 at the prices you quoted. Go on, do it. Time to put up or shut up.



Right there in the list, $130: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131328&cm_re=5770-_-14-131-328-_-Product

Although that is the 512mb model, heh. For the 1GB you're looking at $150.

I already stated that I took into consideration used cards for the 4870/4890. I saw a 4870 go for $50 in the forum today.

New 4890 for $209 with 12.5% cashback = $183

 

[kirbyrj]

Then by your own admission your comparison is false and thus bullshit. Comparing the cost of used vs. new? Nice attempt at forcing the conclusion you want.

I already stated what I was comparing which is absolute price/performance...new/used...you still get a better deal on used 48XX parts than you do on used 57XX or 58XX parts. The comparison still stands. I linked a new 4890 for $183, which isn't the $200 you said, but I won't try and crucify you like you are trying to do to me.

 

[criznit]

To be fair, my local best buy has a brand new 4890 for $170 but its on clearance.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

I already stated what I was comparing which is absolute price/performance...new/used...you still get a better deal on used 48XX parts than you do on used 57XX or 58XX parts. The comparison still stands. I linked a new 4890 for $183, which isn't the $200 you said, but I won't try and crucify you like you are trying to do to me.

4850 and 4870 run hotter, louder, use more power than a 5750/5770. IMO 57xx are perfect htpc cards. They are priced accordingly. In absolute performance metrics, 4870's and 4890's are a better deal, but that simply isn't the whole picture. Great hdmi audio etc make the new ones better all around cards for some.

 

[kirbyrj]

4850 and 4870 run hotter, louder, use more power than a 5750/5770. IMO 57xx are perfect htpc cards. They are priced accordingly. In absolute performance metrics, 4870's and 4890's are a better deal, but that simply isn't the whole picture. Great hdmi audio etc make the new ones better all around cards for some.

I agree. It comes down to your needs which might be very specific (size, power consumption, useage, etc.).

 

[kllrnohj]

The comparison still stands.

No, it really doesn't.

I linked a new 4890 for $183, which isn't the $200 you said, but I won't try and crucify you like you are trying to do to me.

You linked to a $210 4890 with BCB - which you can get on 5830s, too So if you do deals with BCB, then its $183 vs. $210 for the 4890 vs. 5830. Its kind of funny how hard you are trying to twist reality to fit your view. Still doesn't change that new vs. new, the 4870 isn't any cheaper than the 5770.

 

[ELox]

I'll make this simple for you because you're not paying attention:

4870 = 5770 performance
4890 = 5830 performance

4870 = $100, 5770 = $150
4890 = $175, 5830 = $230

While the costs have gone up, the performance hasn't. Please don't whine about my random price figures because they are fairly accurate if you shop around and look for deals (and even cheaper if you buy used cards). Yes, you there are other features like Eyefinity and DX11, but on those lower end parts aren't quite as big of a deal. No one is contesting the fact that the 5850/5870/59XX are all better parts.

I'm going to ignore your rudeness and assume it's your defense mechanism when you know you have no leg to stand on.

I really think ATI has kept around some of their 48xx series for a reason and that is to offer more choice. For those that appreciate the features included and power efficiency of the 57xx series cards they have the option to buy one that performs as well as the 48xx but offer those additional features for $20-40 bucks extra. The 5770 is a great performer with about a $30 premium over the 4870 and offers the additional features, more power efficiency plus more forward compatibility of adding a second card and staying with current features like dx11 and eyefinity.

Crossfiring is becoming a lot more cost effective and I just recently recommended a friend to pickup a 57701gb for $150 because on his 22" monitor it will play any game he plays at max or near max options with the possibility of adding another 5770 in a year if he wants more performance or decides to go eyefinity.

You can argue until you are blue in the face that for YOU price/FPS is all that matters but for me and many others the features offered by the 57xx series cards justifies the cost of going to the movies price difference between them and the old 48xx cards.

Comparing end of life prices on old technology to new products is a flawed argument.
Comparing price/FPS and ignoring all other aspects of a comparison is fine for you but does not paint an entire picture and is a flawed comparison.

 

[kirbyrj]

I don't even know why I'm bothering with this ridiculous argument. How about you tell me where the Nvidia cards are that offer similar features and outperform the 57xx series for same or less money??? Ya that's what I thought.

So when I respond to your post above which I considered to be rude, I am suddenly the bad guy?

I'm going to ignore your rudeness and assume it's your defense mechanism when you know you have no leg to stand on.

I really think ATI has kept around some of their 48xx series for a reason and that is to offer more choice. For those that appreciate the features included and power efficiency of the 57xx series cards they have the option to buy one that performs as well as the 48xx but offer those additional features for $20-40 bucks extra. The 5770 is a great performer with about a $30 premium over the 4870 and offers the additional features, more power efficiency plus more forward compatibility of adding a second card and staying with current features like dx11 and eyefinity.

Crossfiring is becoming a lot more cost effective and I just recently recommended a friend to pickup a 57701gb for $150 because on his 22" monitor it will play any game he plays at max or near max options with the possibility of adding another 5770 in a year if he wants more performance or decides to go eyefinity.

You can argue until you are blue in the face that for YOU price/FPS is all that matters but for me and many others the features offered by the 57xx series cards justifies the cost of going to the movies price difference between them and the old 48xx cards.

Comparing end of life prices on old technology to new products is a flawed argument.
Comparing price/FPS and ignoring all other aspects of a comparison is fine for you but does not paint an entire picture and is a flawed comparison.

The whole argument you were responding to was a PERFORMANCE argument. You weren't talking about features, you were talking about performance vs. _________. I dont' give a shit what card you buy. I was just pointing out that I agreed with some other guy. From a performance perspective, the older cards offer more performance for less money.

 

[kirbyrj]

You linked to a $210 4890 with BCB - which you can get on 5830s, too So if you do deals with BCB, then its $183 vs. $210 for the 4890 vs. 5830. Its kind of funny how hard you are trying to twist reality to fit your view. Still doesn't change that new vs. new, the 4870 isn't any cheaper than the 5770.

Whatever...I don't consider a used card to be a big deal, especially with double lifetime warranties on some cards (XFX, etc). I wouldn't spend my money on a "new" 48XX card. I think if you keep "used" cards in the equation, you can still get better performance per dollar out of the older cards. Used 5XXX cards are not going to be as cheap as used 48XX cards.

FWIW, I was never twisting reality. I never really argued NEW NEW NEW. I was arguing price/performance and suddenly you started bitching at my prices (after I specifically stated don't whine about my prices as I just made them up off the top of my head). I think my original prices are closer to reality or within 10% or so as I wouldn't recommend someone buy a new 48XX card unless they were on clearance (ala Bestbuy $170).

 

[vjcsmoke]

A GTX 460 at $199 would sell like hotcakes and take over the midrange market even if it's loud and noisy. A GTX 460 @ $250 will still sell, but it won't be a runaway hit, since the performance is fairly cut down compared to the 470 and you're going to still have the noise, power consumption, and heat issues.

BTW Computex doesn't start until June 1st. So if it manages to come out on time, that's still over a month to wait.

 

[kllrnohj]

A GTX 460 at $199 would sell like hotcakes and take over the midrange market even if it's loud and noisy. A GTX 460 @ $250 will still sell, but it won't be a runaway hit, since the performance is fairly cut down compared to the 470 and you're going to still have the noise, power consumption, and heat issues.

BTW Computex doesn't start until June 1st. So if it manages to come out on time, that's still over a month to wait.

That would really depend on how fast the GTX 460 is. Lets say it sits around GTX 275 in performance, that wouldn't exactly be a smash hit.

 

[Michaelius]

Hmm it has ROPs of GTX 260 and lot more SPs than GTX 285 so depending on clock speeds and type of load game uses we can expect performance all over the place from gtx 275 to almost 470 ranges imho.

And as for argument above i cannot understand why people don't see anything wrong with bringing lower performing , much cheaper to make card at higher price points but maybe it's just me.

 

[kllrnohj]

Hmm it has ROPs of GTX 260 and lot more SPs than GTX 285 so depending on clock speeds and type of load game uses we can expect performance all over the place from gtx 275 to almost 470 ranges imho.

Assuming rumored specs are true and all that, of course

But if they are, the GTX 460 isn't coming close to the GTX 470. It has less of everything. Fewer SPs, fewer ROPs, fewer TMUs, less RAM, smaller bus, etc... And not by small amounts, either.

And as for argument above i cannot understand why people don't see anything wrong with bringing lower performing , much cheaper to make card at higher price points but maybe it's just me.

It would seem you missed the 5830 review thread. People *DO* see something wrong with bringing a lower performing card at a higher price point. What you don't seem to get is that so far the 5830 is the only card in that category, and that almost nobody is recommending the 5830 at its current price.

 

[Valset]

it had better be priced well. right now Nvidia has two selling points on the high end, brand name and they have recaptured the fastest single gpu card position. a card that performs like a GTX260 but pulls more power then a GTX280 is not going to be much of an upgrade beyond DX11.

 

[OneEyeWilly]

My first card I ever bought is a GTS250.I got it for 130.00 in March.I was hoping with Nvidia's new line up prices would drop,and pick up a 275 or 280I got this card because I play alot of older games,and will have less driver issues.I can play newer games on moderate settings.I'm no expert as you can tell,but I would not pay 350.00+ or a little lower for any of Nvidia's Power hungry ,costly,hot cards.What a big disappointment.I chose a cheaper card and see were pricing would fall in the near future.I am starting to see my future will ATI in the title .I would rather spend 300.00+ ,and get better quality .Cost is another factor.ATI seems to have a better bang for your dollar.

 

[Ogilvy]

My first card I ever bought is a GTS250.I got it for 130.00 in March.I was hoping with Nvidia's new line up prices would drop,and pick up a 275 or 280I got this card because I play alot of older games,and will have less driver issues.I can play newer games on moderate settings.I'm no expert as you can tell,but I would not pay 350.00+ or a little lower for any of Nvidia's Power hungry ,costly,hot cards.What a big disappointment.I chose a cheaper card and see were pricing would fall in the near future.I am starting to see my future will ATI in the title .I would rather spend 300.00+ ,and get better quality .Cost is another factor.ATI seems to have a better bang for your dollar.

And you said you weren't an expert.

 

[OneEyeWilly]

Cant delete this

 

[OneEyeWilly]

And you said you weren't an expert.

You gotta call it like you see it! I just cant see putting a expensive toaster in your pc.I'm not a fan boy of either vender,but I am a fan of saving money,and getting the most out of my $.I already made my choice.The question is were can I find the best deal on ATI cards.

 

[Darksword]

The GTX460 could be a smash if it's priced well. Seeing how well these new Nvidia cards scale a GTX460 SLI setup for under around $475.00 would be pretty juicy, and would probably kick the crap out of a 5870.

 

[OneEyeWilly]

The GTX460 could be a smash if it's priced well. Seeing how well these new Nvidia cards scale a GTX460 SLI setup for under around $475.00 would be pretty juicy, and would probably kick the crap out of a 5870.

I like your train of thought here.That would be sweet.I want to upgrade,but the ultimate question is HEAT!! .We all want to avoid that ,if possible.It seems people look at performance,and FPS first,heat second.I have great airflow,and my chip and board stay chilly,but I will not sacrifice burning down the house for better frame ratesGrant it I,'m smokin some (1) eyed willy preo bud ,but I'm seeing the light..I could be negative,but whats the point! ATI is are savior.

Ozzy-I love You All!

The Government -I will fuck you all !

 

[Brackle]

wow $299?....

So let me get this. a 470 GTX is $350 and as fast as a 5850 which is $300.

Now this 460 gtx will be LESS performance then a 5850, but priced at $300?

WTF is nvidia smoking...

Also where is the damn Nvidia surround drives...I want to see some reviews on these...suppose to be out in april?

 

[kirbyrj]

wow $299?....

So let me get this. a 470 GTX is $350 and as fast as a 5850 which is $300.

Now this 460 gtx will be LESS performance then a 5850, but priced at $300?

WTF is nvidia smoking...

Also where is the damn Nvidia surround drives...I want to see some reviews on these...suppose to be out in april?

$300 is too much. $200 would probably have been ok. Some people would buy it if it performed around what a 5830 does even with more heat/power.

 

[erasure]

GTX480 15/16 500$
GTX470 14/16 350$
GTX460 12/16 ???$ if it 300$ no one buy this, need sell them in 200$

 

[Ogilvy]

NV is trying to turn a profit on these I think. three beans is too much...

 

[vjcsmoke]

GTX480 15/16 500$
GTX470 14/16 350$
GTX460 12/16 ???$ if it 300$ no one buy this, need sell them in 200$

Who has reported that the GTX460 will retail for $299? That would be financial suicide, because there's no way it will be as fast as a 5850 yet it would retail for the same price? I think $249 is the highest Nvidia can go and still sell the 460s.