Good DAC + power amp combo under $800?

Mad Maxx

Mad Maxx

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I run a 2.1 PC speaker setup. Trying to free up some desk space by replacing my big Yamaha integrated amp with a DAC and power amplifier. So far, the leading candidate is Nuforce DAC-80 and STA-120 combo. I also like the Essence HDACC. Anything else worth considering?
 
If dont mind me asking, which inegrated amp do you currently have? I was actually debating between getting a Yamaha integrated amp vs a DAC and separates.
 
See if you can get a second hand DAC that uses the Sabre32 9018 Reference DAC chip.
It gives exceptional clarity, imaging, detail, stereo...
You might get an older Minimax in your price bracket.
They recently brought out some cheaper models, not had a chance to hear one yet.

Then choose a power amp.
Emotiva have reasonably priced lower range power amps, even better if you can get a second hand one.
Super value for what you get.
ie 150W per channel (not bs ratings either) $339 new.
http://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/300
There are a ton of older models you can find second hand, you could even go a step up in quality.

You might want to upgrade your speakers after!


I have the Minimax Tube DAC Plus (stereo), Oppo 105D (8 channels of same DAC) and Emotiva XPA-2 amp on the fronts.
Serious stuff.
 
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Yeah, those Minimax DACs are the shite. Out of my price range, even used. :(

I'm all in for the ESS Sabre, though. Got my taste of the Sabre from a Peachtree Audio amp that died and my Yamaha.
 
Hey maybe those DACs will go on sale 2nd hand now that the ESS 9038 came out all the DAC enthusiasts are going to want to chase the next great thing haha.
 
pippenainteasy said:
Hey maybe those DACs will go on sale 2nd hand now that the ESS 9038 came out all the DAC enthusiasts are going to want to chase the next great thing haha.
Click to expand...
wut? ??
Must have missed that, I hope the new Oppo 105 replacement gets it !!
My precioussss.
 
Commander Shepard said:
Yeah, those Minimax DACs are the shite. Out of my price range, even used. :(

I'm all in for the ESS Sabre, though. Got my taste of the Sabre from a Peachtree Audio amp that died and my Yamaha.
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Keep an eye out, I've seen them below $500 over a year ago.
Havent scouted fs/ft for a while now though.
 
That looks pretty good value!
Do more research, there could be a few more decent DACs hiding away.

Bear in mind if they have no volume control, you need to use the PC sound level to control it.
Thats how I use my Minimax.
The Oppo has a volume control.

I cant feed digital output from the Oppo into the Minimax, it runs at full volume.
Not all disk players will let you control digital volume out.
The Oppo only lets you control analogue out.
 
Nenu said:
That looks pretty good value!
Do more research, there could be a few more decent DACs hiding away.

Bear in mind if they have no volume control, you need to use the PC sound level to control it.
Thats how I use my Minimax.
The Oppo has a volume control.
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I use an SMSL Q5 Pro for my TV. It's a great little sound solution when used with a pair of bookshelf speakers.

True dat on the volume control. I have an Emotiva Control Freak volume knob. To use it, either the DAC or amp must have volume control. :banghead:
 
Shepard, please remind me what speakers the amp will drive.

And didn't you just buy that Yamaha?
 
HammerSandwich said:
Shepard, please remind me what speakers the amp will drive.

And didn't you just buy that Yamaha?
Click to expand...
I've got a pair of Klipsch bookshelves and an SVS sub. I bought the Yamaha back around June.
illram said:
This has the Sabre DAC and it is $60.

http://hifimediy.com/SPDIF-9018-DAC

Needs an optical in though. (And an amp, obviously.)

I think there is a USB version also. Not sure if it is the same Sabre chip however.
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That's definitely interesting. Might work with an amp like this: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_021AD3002/AudioSource-AD3002.html?tp=180
 
The HiFiMe would work great with any amp, really. I don't know much about speaker amps, all my research as of late has been into the headphone variety.
 
In case it helps, this page lists the current ESS DACs and their basic placement.
Theres nothing to say which of the Pro or Reference DACs will be the most revealing.
http://www.shawelectronics.com/ess-dac.html

At the Ref level, quite a lot of things will have a profound influence on your sound.
The quality of the power supply, noise suppression, noise rejection, circuit design, component quality...
Quality of connections, amplifier and speakers can have a great impact too.

Be aware that USB powered designs with little shielding will not get the best from the DAC chip.
But it might still be good enough for your equipment or how much you care.
Its a very personal thing and is hard to quantify without experience.
And you can mod them.

Most of my friends I would not advise to get anything special at all, they wouldnt give a damn.
A few of us really notice and care though.


Soft dome tweeter speakers wont expose the detail from the better DACs.
fyi
 
^^ That does help. Thanks!

My Yamaha has the 9010 chip (and sounds great) and the Essence HDACC (leading candidate) has the 9012. I won't be able to use that HiFiMe dac with my setup, after all. I only run 2.1, so maybe the 9018 is overkill, anyway.
 
Arent there 2 ESS 9018 DACs? The full size, 8 channel one is the one with 135db snr when used as a stereo dac that everyone wants, whereas I think the mobile (?) one is roughly a Burr Brown PCM1796-level DAC?
 
Commander Shepard said:
^^ That does help. Thanks!

My Yamaha has the 9010 chip (and sounds great) and the Essence HDACC (leading candidate) has the 9012. I won't be able to use that HiFiMe dac with my setup, after all. I only run 2.1, so maybe the 9018 is overkill, anyway.
Click to expand...

Thats not to say you wont get more detail, my statement was too short.
There is some exquisite detail that needs pretty good kit kit to hear was more my point.
You can work toward that later.

If you intend spending that much on a DAC/amp, you might as well go for high quality when its affordable.
One of the benefits I found from this DAC is that it makes music sound un digital, more like a record but more dynamic.

pippenainteasy said:
Arent there 2 ESS 9018 DACs? The full size, 8 channel one is the one with 135db snr when used as a stereo dac that everyone wants, whereas I think the mobile (?) one is roughly a Burr Brown PCM1796-level DAC?
Click to expand...
The 9018 Reference is an 8 channel DAC.
Mfrs use it for stereo by grouping DAC outputs to give improved noise rejection. (ie the PC USB and Headphone connections on the Oppo 105 have a Ref DAC chip dedicated to stereo. The Minimax stereo DACs use a Ref 9018 for stereo.)
Or to produce an 8 Channel Reference quality output (ie Oppo 105 has another 9018 DAC for 8 channel and is also used for SPDIF stereo/5.1)

The other 9018 suffixed DAC chips are stereo only.
(for mobile or smaller footprint DACs)
They are all 32bit internal.
 
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I've been reading a lot about the AK4490 DAC chip in my research. Any thoughts on it?
 
Like the one on the Schiit Jottunheim? AKM has a reputation for being warm whereas ESS has the reputation of being clinical sounding, if you believe DACs can color the sound. Of course Im sure the analog output stage has far more impact there than the DACs themselves.
 
The 4490 is interesting, it looks to be a quality DAC.
From reading experiences it is less capable of resolving tiny detail compared to the 9018 ref.
This is not necessarily a bad thing, some find the 9018 sounds too clinical.
But you might miss out on something you could really appreciate.

Forgive the following ramble. Its about as much help as I can give without you going to hear it for yourself.

I have a much older audiophile friend who appears to simply not like a highly detailed sound.
He is the only audiophile I have found who wasnt impressed by my system, I was quite surprised.
I believe with him its partially a case of what he is used to. He is also very cheap with his hi res computer audio equipment so pricing bias creeps in. His main Meridian speaker system has a built in DAC/amp system that is very hard to change. He doesnt want to change his whole system.
Thats not to say others are driven in this way, they may genuinely hate more detail.
Or their hifi may have been chosen to brighten up their current playback device and any more detail is too shrill.
And some DACs are brighter than others.
...


Another element that is often not considered.
When a DAC is new, it will have a bite that goes away. On a less detailed system this can be very welcome and sorely missed when it goes.
On other systems it may be horrible until it settles in, which can sometimes take months.
Same with speakers, new tweeters are definitely more shrill at first.
You should never audition a brand new unboxed DAC with a view to purchasing, it must always be fully run in.

When I first got my Minimax Plus DAC I bought it blind from reviews of the older first Minimax. They were quite enthused.
I had soft dome tweeter speakers at that time.
The amount of extra detail I got moving from an Onkyo AV amp was incredible.
I wasnt so pleased when the DAC started to run in and decided I need to upgrade the rest of my system to get the most from it.

After upgrading to Ribbon/magnesium treble/mid speakers, another world of detail emerged, and not shrill.
I could hear the environment the recording was made in, it was fascinating.
Tons of extra detail in the soundstage emerged and the already extended reverb seemed to never end, it would fade into the blackness rather than disappear.
I played just about every single track I own to see what would become my new favourites.
Trying the Onkyos DAC directly after was quite a shock, it sounded flat/dead. Reverb was either missing or ended too quickly. The soundstage collapsed.
I was sold on my system and decided I had to get a surround version of my stereo DAC.

So I bought the Oppo 105. (Am now on the 105D which is a tiny bit more detailed)
This sounds extremely similar to the Minimax as you would expect using the same DAC chips.
But they are implemented differently and are surrounded/fed by different electronics and power supplies.
I use the Minimax for stereo music, there is a veil lifted in comparison to the Oppo. It definitely extracts more detail from the music.
The Oppo is left on the rest of the time as its still bloody great and very convenient for its video features and surround.
TV sound is so much clearer than the Onkyo!

But I never fail to switch the Minimax on for music it is that good.
Luckily my power amp has input switches on the back to change between line in and balanced, so the Oppo is on balanced, the Minimax on line in.
There is nothing else in the way of either of them, they are connected directly to the power amp.
At this level, you notice such things :)

This is how I came to appreciate the detail the 9018 DACs give.
My brother liked the Oppo so much he bought one and then fitted the same Ribbon tweeters I use to his own speakers and tweaked the output to give a bit more detail from the Oppo.
The only real way to know if you will like something is to hear it on your own setup.
But thats often not possible before buying or is thoroughly impractical.
I hate auditioning in shops because most of them do not cater for how it will sound in your home.
And those that do charge too much and I dont like to waste their time.


What I am really trying to say is there is a world of detail, stereo + soundstage effects in music that most are not aware of.
Its a shame to miss it.
Maybe its for you, maybe it isnt.
You owe it to yourself to find out somehow if you intend on upgrading.
If it is for you, even if your system cant extract all that detail now, its something you can work towards over the next 10 years.
I've had my Minimax over 5 years now. I tried opamp swapping but went back to the originals.
The only mod I have stuck with is to disable the valve stage because unplugging the valve made a huge difference to detail + soundstage on the solid state section.

/ramble

ps before this I bought an Emotiva DAC and had numerous PC soundcards.
All those including the Onkyo DAC sound bland in comparison.
Its another world of audio.
 
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That was quite a ramble. I'm definitely not the audiophile that you are; not even close. I appreciate quality sound, of course, but within my budget. I'll keep my eyes open for possible deals on the items discussed here. Maybe I'll get lucky when I least expect it.
 
Hehe, cool :)
Although I didnt know I was like this until I got the Minimax.
I was shooting for a star I never found up until then.

It takes being brave if you cant audition.
Luckily the price of entry is much lower these days, but still not to be sniffed at.
Good luck.
 
Yeah whatever you end up going with make sure you with optical. I find when you start wiring multiple separate devices together the chances for a ground loop start rising pretty much exponentially, especially with a mix of 2 prong and 3 prong devices, and not all companies wire their devices to the same standard, and even usb/hdmi can cause ground issues. I also found having balanced inputs is invaluable with a power amplifier as generally if I have a power amp with 60hz mains hum issues with the single ended inputs, the issue seems to go away every time when i switch to the balanced inputs.
 
Pro amps are great bargains, the only issue is they are often small (and cheaper) because they trade off big metal heatsinks with cooling fans instead. I know some guys on AVSForum would buy pro amps and then replace the cooling fans with aftermarket ones or mod them with resistors/fan controllers to limit the noise.
 
Here are my recommendations based on what I actually own and use in my own A/V and PC setups.

DAC -- Emotiva DC-1 -- $499 -- 24bit/192kHz USB UAC Class 2. This unit has two excellent headphone amps built in and a slew of inputs/outputs, including analog in, which can be expanded to handle more analog devices with the SP-1. It is a half-width unit similar in size to the Parasound zDAC but with better USB support and more input options. It comes with an aluminum remote control that has some heft to it. Analog volume/gain control with precision of ± 0.25 dB
Amp -- Emotiva A-100 -- $195 -- 50w x 2 at 8 Ohms. While it isn't as powerful as some of the better Class D designs, it is Class A/B in a small package and will stack nicely on top of the DC-1. At 8.25" wide these can be placed on a desk easily. I have mine sitting on top of my Silverstone SG05 computer case, which is SFF.

http://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1

http://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/100

Only other thing I might mention is that the DC-1 does not have home theater bypass ( ie. no sub-woofer output. ) I simply bought a pair of XLR cables for my speakers and use the RCA outputs for the sub. This means that you'll want a sub-woofer that can manage a full bandwidth signal -- has a crossover. SVS subs have a crossover.
 
I like that little Emotiva amp! My Klipsch speakers are highly efficient, so a lot of power isn't necessary. Will read up on the Emotiva some more.

I'm sold on the Essence dac. I like that it has HDMI in addition to optical.
 
You would probably get a much better increase in sound quality if you ditched upgrading the DAC and amp and invested the money to speakers. They're always going to be the weakest link in your setup unless your current ones are borderline broken.

For example if you use the Klipsch bookshelves in near field - they're not intended for that kind of use. You would most likely get a huge increase in sound quality by getting a pair of active near field monitors, say from Genelec.
 
I tried some powered monitors in the past -- KRK, Alesis, Tannoy -- but never really liked the sound. All seemed kinda flat and unappealing. From everything I've read, these speakers are better suited for professional/studio work.

I've got no complaints about sound quality with my current setup. I'm just looking to downsize from my giant Yamaha amp.
 
A lot of pro monitos have rolled off treble in order for mixing engineers to deal with listening fatigue. Also mixing monitors in particular are more likely than consumer speakers to use cloth or textile based drivers which although lack the hard resonances of cheaper aluminum or titanium based drivers, also have less potentially less detail retrieval due to fact that cloth based drivers often flex unevenly during heavy pistonic motion compared to a harder metal dome drivers.

Dont get me wrong, I love soft domes and think especially the esotar2 tweeters and mids are among the smoothest, most enjoyable Ive ever heard. But also true that they dont necessarily compete with the best metal or ribbon drivers in terms of pure detail retrieval.
 
Just try midsized Genelecs you won't be disappointed. The smallest models are not worth the time though as with any speaker. Then again if flat (i.e. hi-fi) is not what you're looking for then just disregard anything I've written.

Pippen: The amount of detail has nothing to do with soft or hard domes especially when near field listening is involved, it's all about design.
 
For amps:
Parasound Zamp v.3 (class A/B and about half the size of the small Emotiva)
Matrix Audio Mini-i Amp (class D and about half the size of Nuforce STA-120 or Zamp)

For DAC:
There are so many to choose from..., but I would prefer the Emotiva DC-1 or the Matrix Audio Mini-i over the Nuforce DAC-80

The Matrix Audio Mini-i and Mini-i Amp would be like $900 together.
The Matrix Audio Mini-i with either the Parasound Zamp v.3 or Nuforce STA-120 would be under $800.

Matrix Audio Web site:
http://matrix-digi-usa.com/

While you are there check out their new X-Sabre Pro (still in preorder) that uses the ES9038PRO D/A chip!!!
 
^^ Thanks for the suggestions. I decided to up my budget and get the Oppo Sonica Dac (when available).

Still looking at amps. Not gonna go with a pro amp, though. Right now, the Emotiva A-300 is my likely choice.
 
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The klipsch bookshelves are probably a very light load so any old small amp should do for desktop use. You'll be playing on average 1 watt power :D
 
Commander Shepard said:
^^ Thanks for the suggestions. I decided to up my budget and get the Oppo Sonica Dac (when available).

Still looking at amps. Not gonna go with a pro amp, though. Right now, the Emotiva A-300 is my likely choice.
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I am looking at the Oppo Sonica myself since it appears Emotiva won't have an update to the DC-1 any time soon. I was hoping to order that and the UDP-203 at the same time. The Sonica is supposed to be around $800. Sonica having Ethernet support is interesting, but I doubt I'd use it as the music I have is all local on my PC. I think the Sonica will be the same size as the HA-1, which is slightly bigger than the DC-1 and Schiit stuff.
 
jevans64 said:
I am looking at the Oppo Sonica myself since it appears Emotiva won't have an update to the DC-1 any time soon. I was hoping to order that and the UDP-203 at the same time. The Sonica is supposed to be around $800. Sonica having Ethernet support is interesting, but I doubt I'd use it as the music I have is all local on my PC. I think the Sonica will be the same size as the HA-1, which is slightly bigger than the DC-1 and Schiit stuff.
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All my music is digital, too. So is my movie collection. I'm pretty pumped about the new Sonica. Just tired of waiting for it. :p

EDIT: I bought a Parasound 275 v2 amp, tonight. A neighbor who's an audiophile nutcase recommended it over the Emotiva. I also like its much lower profile - only 2.5" high. Should be a good match with the Sonica.
 
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I don't know why everyone seems to be obsessed by DAC/amp combos.

Separates are the better approach, gives you more flexibility to upgrade them independent of eachother, and less cross noise from the relatively noisy digital side in the DAC to the sensitive analogue side in the amp.


Now as far as DAC's go, unless you need balanced outs, it's seems pretty difficult to beat the Schiit's true multibit "Modi Multibit" unit for only $249, and then hooking it up to whatever amp suits your needs either for speakers or for headphones.

Personally my setup is ever evolving, but I have the Modi Multibit hooked up to the optical out of my X-Fi Titanium HD (this way I get some of thet 3d positional audio if I want it in the few games that still support it, while still bypassing the internal noisy DAC) which is in turn hooked up to the single ended inputs of my Schiit Jotunheim (I got the version without the internal DAC) for headphone use.

Right now I just have s junk set of Logitech speakers hooked up to the single ended pre-amp outs of the Jotunheim, but in the near future the plan is for a set of Emotiva Airmotiv 4s or 5s active monitors (depending on how much I feel like spending) hooked up to the balanced pre-amp outs on the Jotunheim.

Then I'm hoping that someone (Schiit or otherwise) eventually comes out with an affordable true multibit DAC with balanced outs, so I can make the entire chain balanced.
 
For some reason I have a hard time accepting Schiit as a reputable vendor. They made some hack jobs in the past at least. And the naming alone feels amateur as hell.

Also spending 200+ bucks to a DAC and then using junk Logitechs does not compute at all. You're getting a 0.001% improvement in source and then using 99% degrading speakers lol.
 
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