Good compact 5.1 amplifier for PC system

[echn111]

Looking to improve the sound of my PC system by getting 5.1 seperates, such as the Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 HCP 5.1 or the 5.1 Quad L-ites. The PC already has a sound card and everything I need to serve as a high quality analogue sound source, but my speakers are passive and so I need some sort of amplifier to actually hear anything.

So looking for the smallest decent quality 5.1 amplifer I can get for my PC system. But all the 5.1 amplifiers I've seen so far, are "massive" and have useless features such as a receiver, stereo surround, h

dmi etc. And this is going onto my computer desk, not a fancy multimedia cabinet.

Is there a good quality, "compact" amplifier that simply amplifies the sound (with decent quality) so I can hear it on my 5.1 speakers? My price range is anywhere from $50 to $500 (preferably the lower end) for the amp. Alternatively, is there a better and simpler solution to improve the sound quality of my PC?

 

[450]

Have you considered the Panasonic XR55/57?

 

[Alai]

No such thing... the laws of physics says so....

You can't make a "compact" 5.1 any less than you can make a "compact" van...

You're trying to make something that requires space to take up less space... that doesn't even logically work. Amplifiers aren't magic. They take up space because it requires multiple amplifying stages. Particularly power amps and even more particularly mutli-channel amps.

 

[echn111]

1. That Panasonic XR55 looks nice but is a bit large and has many features I don't need. If there are no compact "quality" amps out there, I'll revisist it.

2. About the laws of physics and logic...where is this coming from...?

There are plenty of small integrated amplifiers out there already. I have seen some tiny no-name stereo budget amps. My sony 5.1 all-in-one DVD/speaker system has a tiny amplifier built into the bottom of the already rather small subwoofer. Many dedicated computer speakers have small amplifers somewhere in the system... In fact, laws of physics and logic may be shattered here, but there are even speakers that have tiny amplifiers built in and do not need a stand-alone amplifier, just a sound signal.

Unfortunately, I'm trying to go for traditional passive seperates. And this market is dominated by people who look for quality amplifier receivers combos with loads and loads of features, and like to put this nice, large and impressive box into their very visible (and often expensive) multimedia cabinet, often in the living room. But all I want is something discrete to power passive speakers from my PC. I don't care about 99% of the features that a standard multimedia receiver has because I'm relying on the PC's software and sound card to handle everything. It simply has to take the signal and make it a bit louder so my speakers can use it.

 

[Christobevii3]

Kinda interesting nobody has made a 5x20w mini receiver or anything yet. I have a denon stereo mini receiver which is like 1/4 the size of a normal stereo one.

 

[Alai]

There are plenty of small integrated amplifiers out there already. I have seen some tiny no-name stereo budget amps. My sony 5.1 all-in-one DVD/speaker system has a tiny amplifier built into the bottom of the already rather small subwoofer. Many dedicated computer speakers have small amplifers somewhere in the system... In fact, laws of physics and logic may be shattered here, but there are even speakers that have tiny amplifiers built in and do not need a stand-alone amplifier, just a sound signal.

You know why those amps are tiny? Because they are powering tiny, weak speakers with almost no wattage...

 

[echn111]

removed

 

[echn111]

Have you considered the Panasonic XR55/57?

The more I read about this amp/receiver, the more I like it. It's digital, very efficient, low heat, and "relatively" small (not ideal, but hey). I might just buy this one if I can find it at a decent price. Thx.

 

[Sycraft]

So you can get what you want... The problem is I'm not aware of it for what I'd call a reasonable price. Class D amplifiers are extremely small with relation to how much power they put out. You can get 5+ channels in a small space. The problem? They cost an arm, leg, and few other body parts.

For example the Rotel RMB-1076 is a 6 channel, 100 watt (as in 100 per channel, 600 total) amp that fits in 1RU of space. Small, cool, and powerful. The downside? Oh nothing... Unless a $1600 price tag puts you off.

All the reasonably price multi-channel amps I'm aware of are class AB and thus a bit on the large side. Even if you go for a fairly low wattage unit, it still costs a good bit of coin.

Another problem you'll find is that separate 5 channel amps are in the "audiophile" or "high end" realm of equipment. Means they are higher quality, but cost more. You'll be hard pressed to find a 5 channel dedicated amp for less than you can get a receiver for.

I HAVE encountered small receivers that use Class D amps and are in the realm of reasonable prices, however I have no idea how one actually gets them. I've seen them as part of HTIB systems, but then of course you are buying speakers as well. I've seen them listed as separate components, but never actually for sale. The two that I do know that have Class D amps and I can actually find for sale are the Pioneer SC-25 and SC-27. Ok well for one, they are as large as any other receiver and also they are extremely high end, $1500+ units.

Unless you really have to have a small unit, I'd say bit the bullet and get a low end receiver. For cheap stuff, I'm a Yamaha fan. You can find their HTR series online for not much money and they are good quality.

 

[450]

The more I read about this amp/receiver, the more I like it. It's digital, very efficient, low heat, and "relatively" small (not ideal, but hey). I might just buy this one if I can find it at a decent price. Thx.

Yeah its a good unit, a bit bass light, but otherwise very, very good.

Finding one nowadays is rather difficult though.

 

[SJetski71]

So you can get what you want... The problem is I'm not aware of it for what I'd call a reasonable price. Class D amplifiers are extremely small with relation to how much power they put out. You can get 5+ channels in a small space. The problem? They cost an arm, leg, and few other body parts.

The OP totally missed out on the Tripath based Teac AG-L800 giveaway a couple of years ago, tiny, decent remote, clean sounding, 5.1 and just a little over a $100 when it was being liquidated. The Teac AG-H550 was a similar sized solid-state 5.1 receiver. Good luck finding them now though.

OP i've also been keeping an eye peeled for tiny 5.1 amps, the smallest affordable one i can think of is this yamaha SL series but it's still 17" wide:
- http://www.avland.co.uk/yamaha/rxsl100/rxsl100.htm
- http://cgi.ebay.com/YAMAHA-rx-SL100-6-1ch-HOME-THEATER-Receiver-450W-SLIM_W0QQitemZ390076761512

If you can swing it's overall size the panasonic XR45 XR55 or XR57 may be your best bet. The only place you can find them at this point is ebay probably. JVC also makes slim 7.1 receivers, they can run sorta warm but they auction for cheap on ebay. I picked up a JVC 2-series and 4-series for real cheap and they both sound really nice.

One thing i noticed OP, you didn't specify if you wanted or needed analog inputs on the receiver (?)

 

[SJetski71]

Almost forgot...

This well known seller has raw tripath based 6 channel amps with an integrated powersupply. I'm not sure what the inputs look like but the seller is extremely helpful and would tell you exactly what you'd need to get up and running for your specific setup. I don't think there's anything to solder but he does do specialty work for a nominal fee. I know you wouldn't need a volume dial (for example) because you could control volume through windows. Pretty sure that amp is the same one used in the higher priced setups that Sycraft was referring to in post #9.

His name is arjen helder and he's a respected member in a few forums.

related link:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131684

 

[obobski]

Outlaw has a similar amplifier to that Rotel (features wise), but at a third the price:
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7075.html

they have some other options as well, but those get into the $1000+ range quite easily

otherwise, the panasonic/yamaha/etc look good, or the Rotel (excepting the massive price)

 

[ashmedai]

No such thing... the laws of physics says so....

You can't make a "compact" 5.1 any less than you can make a "compact" van...

Eh...yes and no. With sufficiently sensitive speakers, you're looking at around 3x the size of a tripath amp (specifically, three tripath amps as an exemplar case), which can get pretty darn small. So allowing that "good" is extremely relative, you could do a space-conscious build that gives fairly respectable sound.

But you would have to be very careful to choose the right parts, and it will probably inflate the price somewhat compared to just using a budget receiver and not having to deal with as tight of power limitations. You would also probably need to use analog input as you would lose all switching / decoding functions from a receiver (not necessarily a problem with a decent-grade surround-capable sound card).

So, physically impossible...no. But it does impose severe limitations on your options.

 

[Sycraft]

Good luck finding them now though.

Ya that's the problem. Like I said, I am not aware of any cheap class D 5 channel amps for sale for a reasonable price. All the ones I know of aren't available for anywhere, or at least anywhere reputable. It seems to be "high end or nothing" which seems silly to me.

obobski: Looks like a much more realistic option, but I'm still betting more than he wants to pay. Also it's a little larger than the Rotel, though I'm not sure to what factor size is an issue. Still maybe something the OP will be interested in.

ashmedai: Tripath isn't the only Class D amp technology. ICEPower and Bash are two very popular ones. However ICEPower seems to be real expensive and thus only in high end products, probably because it seems to scale real well (there are 500wpc ICEPower setups). Bash is great, but for subs only pretty much. At least I've never seen a Bash amp that wasn't for a subwoofer.

 

[obobski]

obobski: Looks like a much more realistic option, but I'm still betting more than he wants to pay. Also it's a little larger than the Rotel, though I'm not sure to what factor size is an issue. Still maybe something the OP will be interested in.

heh, $699 feels a bit more comfortable to me than $1699 haha

but yeah, I'm with you on ~$500 being tight for a solid 5-6ch solution that isn't garbage or a full receiver (which isn't much larger than anything else thats been suggested, AVR-154 can be had for easily under $500 and would probably do more than the OP wants (never really stated what "compact" needs to mean))

 

[450]

Well he thought the XR55's were big so the AVR-154 is probably out of the question.

 

[echn111]

I think the main problem is that the engineering exists to do this (see points 2 and 3 below), but there is no real market for a no-frills 5.1 amplifier.

- Had a look this weekend at a number of receivers and called up a number of hi-fi shops but all the smaller 5.1 receivers (e.g. cambridge audio 340r) are considered to be obsolete and have been discountinued in favour of bigger receivers. There just isn't demand now days at least in the "audiophile market". In the audiophile area, the Panasonic XR57 is probabably the best option for me for now, although it's a bit hard to find and not "that" cheap. Yup that $1600 price for the Rotel and some of the other suggestions is beyond my means. (and yes, only looking at analogue inputs from my PC to the amp)

- Another suggested solution is to just to continue to use my existing "integrated" amplifier and replace all the speakers - my Logitech 5500 subwoofer/amplifer combination is still the most compact solution I can easily find. The main problem is I also want to replace the subwoofer.

This well known seller has raw tripath based 6 channel amps with an integrated powersupply.

- That sounds more like it! The whole thing weighs less than a kilo and just does the job with no-frills. And if that $55 amp is the same as that $1600 Rotel product, even better. Too bad it looks so "ghetto", but I suppose that's what you get in the "electronics enthusiast" market. Wasn't planning on a DIY, especially with a product direct from China via Ebay, but it looks like I'm stuck in between the elite "audiophile market" and the ghetto "electronics enthusiast" DIY market. This is definately worth looking at and will be checking out the electronic shops next week to see if I can get something similar. If not, going to check with Arjen to see if he can put it into a box and prepare it a bit to make it somewhat less ghetto.

 

[echn111]

Did a bit more research and had a closer look at that Tripath 3 X TA2020 PCB. That TA2020 is actually reasonably good quality, which means some companies are massively marking up these things and really making huge profits from audiophiles. Also registered on that DIY board, and am currently trying to clarify a few things with Arjen Helder.

So after looking at various options, and if I get the expected replies to my questions, I think I've now decided: my best option is to look to build my own 5.1 amplifier box. Not only because of price (although it is a bonus), but because it sounds a lot more interesting than just buying something off-the-shelf (at a huge markup).

So thanks all for the advice/suggestions.

 

[SJetski71]

Glad we got you interested OP. There is one more idea that no one mentioned, that's the MSI Live Diva motherboard. It's micro-atx and has an internal 5.1 class D amp. Heck it even has component video outputs if that's something you could use.

MSI Diva Links:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130206
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1003579

Also, don't forget to check the other amp sections of that forum, maybe do forum searches using terms like "mini 5.1" etc etc.

If i stumble across anything interesting i'll shoot you a quick PM, or just link it here.

 

[ashmedai]

ashmedai: Tripath isn't the only Class D amp technology. ICEPower and Bash are two very popular ones. However ICEPower seems to be real expensive and thus only in high end products, probably because it seems to scale real well (there are 500wpc ICEPower setups). Bash is great, but for subs only pretty much. At least I've never seen a Bash amp that wasn't for a subwoofer.

Yeah, on the other hand I was simply demonstrating that it could be at least that small in response to a statement that it was physically impossible.

 

[Alai]

Yeah, my bad. When you said "compact" I thought of "headphone amp" size. Which naturally made me think you were insane. We never really did discuss the actual desired size.

 

[obobski]

heh, I figured the HK would be a bit large, figured I'd throw it out there anyways

that MSI board looks great, if OP is looking at this for an HTPC or similar, a very nice idea indeed

 

[echn111]

Yeah, my bad. When you said "compact" I thought of "headphone amp" size. Which naturally made me think you were insane. We never really did discuss the actual desired size.

No worries, I'd agree that expecting to drive a 5.1 seperates system from something that small would be "unrealistic".

I actually deliberately didn't mention a specific size because I was trying to be open minded based on what was available and possible as I'm not exactly an expert in this area. Just wanted something smaller (but good quality), but the intention was to gather information than be deliberately vague.

 

[SJetski71]

Did a bit more research and had a closer look at that Tripath 3 X TA2020 PCB. That TA2020 is actually reasonably good quality, which means some companies are massively marking up these things and really making huge profits from audiophiles. Also registered on that DIY board, and am currently trying to clarify a few things with Arjen Helder.

Well, my 6 channel tripath amp shipped today and I blame you for pushing me over the edge

He's soldering on all the audio inputs for me, doing a full range mod, installing a volume pot, and making the power cord connector easier to work with. All in a 9" x 6" package and for only $96 shipped using the Bing cashback discount .

Can't wait for my new toy to add to the pile, though this is one i plan on using daily. Got my mini DIY cedar 5.1 speaker set to use with it. All of this is for my desktop htpc.

I imagine i'll eventually put the amp in a box of some sort, not too worried about it for now though.

 

[echn111]

Yeah I ordered one with the capacitors upgraded for 6 full range channels, standard 3x3.5mm RCA inputs and some sort of power cord adjustment. Didn't get the volume thing as I'll just use the PC (maybe I should have asked for that?).

Now I realise there is a risk that I'm over my head, or it doesn't work, or doesn't arrive etc.. But it's a risk I'm willing to take and it's not like we're talking $1600 or something like that. And I've always been a sucker for new gadgets to play with, and this one could be interesting. All this because I wanted a compact amp and couldn't find one easily

 

[450]

Keep us updated! I want to know how this turns out.

 

[SJetski71]

Didn't get the volume thing as I'll just use the PC (maybe I should have asked for that?)

Actually, you might be better off without it, volume pots never improve sound quality, and many of them degrade it. He just automatically offered it to me, i probably should have told him to just leave it off. The good part is he's pretty knowledgeable and has some passion for what he does, i trust he won't give me a complete POS volume pot, or at least i hope so anyways.

Keep us updated! I want to know how this turns out.

Definitely will, will post amp pics and impressions, be sure to remind me if i forget

It's coming from that guy's home in China, so it may take a week or two before i (we) have it in hand.

Here's one of the speaker faces, it's made from eastern red cedar, sorta rustic:

 

[450]

Any update on the amps?

 

[SJetski71]

Any update on the amps?

Officially on a slow-boat from China.

Note to the OP: i hope you don't mind the threadjack, if you want we can open up a new thread and maybe combine both of our pics and impressions perhaps?

Seems like a good idea, we can always link this thread as an initial reference.

Thinking about installing it into a small FTA satellite box i have laying around, might be a little rigged but from the front it ought to look ok.

 

[SJetski71]

here's a primer on the Tripath 3 X TA2020

The Tripath TA2020 chip up against it's heatsink. The board has three of them for a total of 6 channels.

Here's the Volume pot and 3 x 3.5mm stereo inputs soldered to the pot and the white wiring harness which connects directly to the board.

6 color coded speaker wire clips

The two circled green terminals are where you would wire a power switch and power cord, unfortunately i haven't figured out which is which yet. The amp has a built-in SMPS powersupply which accepts direct AC voltage anywhere between 120~220 volts, and delivers around 12amps of power. The power supply is the area circled in white.

How does it sound you ask ? No idea i haven't got around to that part yet, still need to figure out which of those two terminals to connect the power cable to !

 

[echn111]

Yeah, got my board as well and looks similar, with the 6 yellow blocks in front being the modifications to have 6 full range channels. I have the traditional 6 RCA inputs representing 5.1 to connect to my PC rather than the 3.5mm jacks, but that's because I asked for that. It appears that I have a voume control as well.

The main blocking point is powering this board "safely". I was expecting a positive, negative and ground connector so not quite sure how the AC connector works. Anyone have any ideas? Not in any rush however and been looking for decent speakers in the meantime. I have asked Arjen how to connect it up to AC current without electrocuting myself (maybe I should have asked for the 12v option but too late now), but hopefully someone else has the answers. Will check the DIY forums later.

 

[SJetski71]

Yeah, got my board as well and looks similar, with the 6 yellow blocks in front being the modifications to have 6 full range channels. I have the traditional 6 RCA inputs representing 5.1 to connect to my PC rather than the 3.5mm jacks, but that's because I asked for that. It appears that I have a voume control as well.

The main blocking point is powering this board "safely". I was expecting a positive, negative and ground connector so not quite sure how the AC connector works. Anyone have any ideas? Not in any rush however and been looking for decent speakers in the meantime. I have asked Arjen how to connect it up to AC current without electrocuting myself (maybe I should have asked for the 12v option but too late now), but hopefully someone else has the answers. Will check the DIY forums later.

Pretty sure we can only hook up a two prong power cord to it. I emailed Arjen today asking which green terminal was for power, hoping he replies soon. The lower green terminal in my pic is marked SW402 and the upper terminal is marked CN401. I have a suspicion which is which, and there are ways to figure it out, i was just holding out for an easy answer .

 

[Thor]

well, its AC so it dosent matter how its wired to be quite honest, pick one, and wire your switch to the hot side

sounds like we need a leson in A/C, which means alternating current, the voltage litterly flips from one side being positive to the other side being positive at 60Hz (60 times per seconed) its not like DC where you litterly have a positive and a negitive and getting it backwards fucks things up, it cannot be wired backwards, thought somethings, like AC motors like haveing there hot side wired to stator foward (even thought it dosent matter, and should still start any way, it is supposed to be easyer on the motor if when the switch is flipped it hits that side first.. something like that any way, its how it was explained to me...) most non motorised electronics (like cell phone adaptors for example) are not polorized, ( you can unplug the wall wart flip it over, and plug it back in and it will make no difference) this is because there is not true positive or negitive, how ever, there is a hot side at the socket, the best way to describe this is one of the wires on a switched socket is ... switched... (meaning when you flip the wall switch that plug turns off) , all plugs, sockets and outlets are switched at the breaker box on this same wire. and becuase you only need to cut the power to one wire, to stop the flow, the other wire remains solid for all curcuits and runs to ground, this 'switched' is the hot side of the curcuit, no matter what there is always current on it (unless the switch is flipped of course), and all of your sockets 'should' be wired the same... (i say should, becasue i know some of mine in this old house are not...)

 

[SJetski71]

well, its AC so it dosent matter how its wired to be quite honest, pick one, and wire your switch to the hot side

Meaning i can wire a power cable to either of those two green terminals? I do have confirmation that they are there for a power switch and power cable. The enclosure i'm using has a power switch rigged directly onto the power cable btw

Not really confused about the positive and negative side btw, we're more confused over which green terminal we should connect a power cord to.

The traces underneath the PCB confused me a tiny bit also.

And believe me, all help is/was appreciated, thank you.

 

[Thor]

owo ok, i have never seen it wired that way (on an AC supply), cn401 would be your power, wire one screw hot, the othe ground, you can wire sw402 with a switch one blade gose to one screw, the other blade gose to the other... or you could put the switch inline on one wire befor cn401 and jumper acrossed sw402, same difference. (from the other shots i didnt relise there where 4 screws total, i can see your confusion.), i dont know why they made it like that, would have been just as easy to say 'switch hot wire' on a note somehwere... thought its not the first time i have seen it done like this,my mint tin amp did it this way as well, i jumpered the pads together and switched the positive lead there... it was a little simpler to do it this way and gave me more slack in the power lines when i was putting it together.. dont think that was an issue here, but its an option..

 

[SJetski71]

owo ok, i have never seen it wired that way (on an AC supply), cn401 would be your power, wire one screw hot, the othe ground, you can wire sw402 with a switch one blade gose to one screw, the other blade gose to the other... or you could put the switch inline on one wire befor cn401 and jumper acrossed sw402, same difference. (from the other shots i didnt relise there where 4 screws total, i can see your confusion.), i dont know why they made it like that, would have been just as easy to say 'switch hot wire' on a note somehwere... thought its not the first time i have seen it done like this,my mint tin amp did it this way as well, i jumpered the pads together and switched the positive lead there... it was a little simpler to do it this way and gave me more slack in the power lines when i was putting it together.. dont think that was an issue here, but its an option..

kinda figured CN401 was the one we needed. I questioned the seller about it yesterday morning hoping for some confirmation, now just waiting on his reply. If he doesn't reply then we still have enough info to go forward



Edit: does anyone know a merchant that sells input wiring harness's similar to the one in my pic, hopefully with rca-style inputs? Mouser or digikey maybe? Wanted to keep another one around just in case, and also to see if bypassing the volume pot makes any difference.

 

[echn111]

Well the seller is really good about responding to questions. However, I'm not sure if I really understand his answers sometimes, possibly because my questions are a bit too vague along with my limited understanding of electronics. I asked about connecting AC power to the board as well as the "on/off" switch I got and here is the answer I got:

"Simply as 220 volts to one connector and theswitch to the other. at the bottom side you can see that they are connected to eachother,

< to board [] 220 []----[] Switch[]---> to board

so, 220/null and conn 2 is the 2 switch wires "

It looks like this means you attach AC power to "one connector" and the optional on/off switch to the other. It "might" mean it doesn't matter which one you pick (i.e. either CN401 or SW402),as they are both "connected to each other". But it could also mean that my question was not specific enough, especially as there are actually "four" screw connectors and only "two" of these are really connected to each other (i.e. one of the CN401 connectors to one of the SW402's). Hope your question was very specific

Well I could put the AC cable into CN401 and the "on/off" switch cable into SW402, but it would be nice to have confirmation fro the seller. I think each cable has two wires, but, based on what Thor says about AC, the good news is that it makes no difference what order they go in unlike DC power.

As I have some left over computer AC cable (e.g. the type of cable that plugs into the AC wall sockt and then into your computer power supply), I'm going to buy an adaptor socket at maplin/radio shack this weekend and look at attaching it to the CN401 screw on connector, and the other to my AC cable

 

[Thor]

no need to by a special socket, that AC cable you have will work just fine the way it is slice off the end, on the inside you will have 3 wires, should be a black a white and a green (ignore the green),

i would cut off about 6 to10 inches (after you cut off the end, run the cable from the termenals to where you plan to put the switch, give your self a tad more slack, and cut there) and set it aside. strip back about 2 inches of the outside sheath, and about 3/16ths inchs of the coating over the wire, thread the cable into your project box, and tie a knot to keep it from pulling back out. insert the ends into your termenals and tighten them down, repeat for your switch. you may need spade connectors if you dont plan on soldering it at the switch, shrink wrap the bare ends if you do solder or use bare spades. keep in mind that your switch will have 120v running to it

/edit, i didnt see you had a sat box you where planing on useing, that will work just fine, infact you can harvest the power cable and switch, and switch wire from it and cut down on build cost/time. snip the power wire and switch wire off from the PCB on that unit as close to the PCB as possible. and more or less wire as i drew out. (also just reread that the switch is on the power cable for that unit, in which case just cut off a small (say 1/2" piece) form the power cable and use it to jumper sn402 )

 

[Thor]

bah, ill redraw this in a seconed after i have now reread every thing... gimme a few