Going Back to Water, Need Opinions

[Mr. K6]

So my case is pretty sedentary now and I don't need a small, mATX design anymore. Therefore, I'm moving things more towards performance again and am going back to a desktop tower and water cooling . Here's my current blueprints with a couple of questions, I would like to hear what everyone's thoughts/suggestions/opinions are:

Parts -
Basically going to take the guts out of my current rig and throw them into a new case for now.

Case: Coolermaster 690 II Advanced - I looked through about a hundred cases on Newegg and Amazon and this is the only one that's going to do it. I like that radiators mount up very easily, it's big enough to house everything internally but not huge (20"x20" is about as big as I'd like, so it's good), the airflow is great, and the case looks sexy anyway.

Water cooling:

Radiators - Going with two 2x120mm rads since the case is designed for them. I'm going to put an XSPC RX240 in the bottom and a Swiftech MCR-220 in the top.

Tubing and Fittings - 7/16" Masterkleer over 1/2" Bitspower silver plated barbs, plastic Y fitting (see diagram below)

Pump - MCP350 with XSPC Top

Blocks - Apogee XT on the CPU and MCW80 on the GPU, any reason not to? Also, are the chrome fittings that Swiftech includes of decent quality (to avoid corrosion)? I'm wondering if I should get extra silver barbs just in case.

To explain in case my awesome Paint skills don't show it p): the pump is suspended in mid-air by the tubing (I've found it's the simplest way to kill vibration noise). The pump goes directly to the CPU block to maintain the highest pressure, then up to the MCR-220, comes down to the GPU block, then down to the RX240, then back to the pump. I also have a fill port off the Y fitting. I guess the big question is can the MCP350 handle this loop, and I don't see why not, as I've had good experience with it in the past when it's coupled with XSPC tops.

Thanks for reading, let me know what you think .

-Mr. K6

 

[FaRKle0079]

Tubing and Fittings - 7/16" Masterkleer over 1/2" Bitspower silver plated barbs, plastic Y fitting (see diagram below)

How come you'd rather use a T-line as opposed to a reservoir?

Blocks - Apogee XT on the CPU and MCW80 on the GPU, any reason not to? Also, are the chrome fittings that Swiftech includes of decent quality (to avoid corrosion)? I'm wondering if I should get extra silver barbs just in case.

I'd swap the CPU block for an XSPC Rasa. Cheaper and slightly more effective than the Apogee XT. It also doesn't have nearly as much flow restriction. As long as there isn't any aluminum in your loop (doesnt look like any) you shouldn't have a problem with corrosion. Silver barbs aren't necessarily for corrosion so much as they take the place of a kill coil or PT Nuke. In my opinion a barb is a barb and all should have a secondary clamping device like a worm drive clamp.

the pump is suspended in mid-air by the tubing (I've found it's the simplest way to kill vibration noise).

Personally I don't feel comfortable dangling a pump by tubing in mid air. Just put it on foam or a sponge to get rid of vibration noise. It works well for me.

I guess the big question is can the MCP350 handle this loop, and I don't see why not, as I've had good experience with it in the past when it's coupled with XSPC tops.

The MCP350 will do just fine.

 

[Mr. K6]

How come you'd rather use a T-line as opposed to a reservoir?

It's cheaper and easier to use.

I'd swap the CPU block for an XSPC Rasa. Cheaper and slightly more effective than the Apogee XT. It also doesn't have nearly as much flow restriction. As long as there isn't any aluminum in your loop (doesnt look like any) you shouldn't have a problem with corrosion. Silver barbs aren't necessarily for corrosion so much as they take the place of a kill coil or PT Nuke. In my opinion a barb is a barb and all should have a secondary clamping device like a worm drive clamp.

Thanks for the heads up on the Rasa. I'll admit it doesn't look as good as the Apogee XT, but the performance is there and the less restrictive flow is welcome. The reason I ask about the barbs is I've seen cheap barbs in the past with crap plating that have caused issues, but that doesn't seem like the case here. And yes, the silver barbs are for anti-veggie purposes. I'll still probably throw in some PT Nuke though. And I'll be using standard hose clamps to ensure tight seals on everything.

Personally I don't feel comfortable dangling a pump by tubing in mid air. Just put it on foam or a sponge to get rid of vibration noise. It works well for me.

My cases are usually pretty quiet and even with a lot of foam/anti-vibration material, I still usually hear the pump. There shouldn't be a problem with it being suspended, but I'll play around with some ideas for mounting.

The MCP350 will do just fine.

Awesome. Thanks for your thoughts .

 

[CustomModAddict]

If it was me, I would change the rotation on the bottom rad. So that it is blowing out not in. The warm air coming in, will then pass through the top rad, as hot air rises, It also creates a negative pressure inside the case which I think is better for case cooling, always provides constant air flow inside case. It will give you a couple degrees cooler on the top rad. Just a thought!

Good Luck!

 

[Mr. K6]

If it was me, I would change the rotation on the bottom rad. So that it is blowing out not in. The warm air coming in, will then pass through the top rad, as hot air rises, It also creates a negative pressure inside the case which I think is better for case cooling, always provides constant air flow inside case. It will give you a couple degrees cooler on the top rad. Just a thought!

Good Luck!

Thanks for the suggestion! I had thought about reversing the back 120mm fan to an intake and then converting the RX240 to exhaust. I'll also have a 120mm fan blowing in from the side panel, so airflow should be somewhat balanced (slightly negative, which I think is better anyway).

 

[FaRKle0079]

I dont really agree with negative pressure. Cleaning radiators out is more difficult than most components. Dust + radiators = death.

Also, you could turn your rear exhaust into an intake since you wont have the heat from your GPU going out the back, but I think it'd create too many conflicting airflows. I would just remove that fan all together really.

 

[Mr. K6]

I dont really agree with negative pressure. Cleaning radiators out is more difficult than most components. Dust + radiators = death.

Also, you could turn your rear exhaust into an intake since you wont have the heat from your GPU going out the back, but I think it'd create too many conflicting airflows. I would just remove that fan all together really.

Well, right now it seems I could either do both rads blowing out, with the 140mm in the front and the 120mm on the side blowing in, or I could reverse flow and have the RX240 on the bottom to blowing in. I think I'd rather have that rad blowing out rather than sucking up dust from the ground, but the case will have a higher negative pressure in this orientation. Also, good point, the rear 120mm is redundant and I could do without.

 

[CustomModAddict]

Ok, I have had this dilemma a few times in my mods. And have always found that bottom rads blowing out are much better. Yes then cleaning the rad becomes and issue, but if your building it, then you know how to clean it, take off a few screws and lift the fans up and clean.

And having the extra fan exhausting isnt going to hurt anything at all. In fact get a LED fan to add a splash of color to the case. As long as there is plenty of breathing holes in the case all the fans exhausting will pull in cool air with no problems.

I usually make them all exhaust, and make a big breathing square in the front or the bottom, that I can mount a filter on. Now I have an awesome cool case and less dust, and only need to wash it every other month.

Just my two cents.

Goodluck, curious to see which way you go.

 

[Mr. K6]

Ok, I have had this dilemma a few times in my mods. And have always found that bottom rads blowing out are much better. Yes then cleaning the rad becomes and issue, but if your building it, then you know how to clean it, take off a few screws and lift the fans up and clean.

And having the extra fan exhausting isnt going to hurt anything at all. In fact get a LED fan to add a splash of color to the case. As long as there is plenty of breathing holes in the case all the fans exhausting will pull in cool air with no problems.

I usually make them all exhaust, and make a big breathing square in the front or the bottom, that I can mount a filter on. Now I have an awesome cool case and less dust, and only need to wash it every other month.

Just my two cents.

Goodluck, curious to see which way you go.

Interesting points. I think I'm going to have to put it together to really figure this out, but it's all small potatoes. I like the idea of exhausting through both radiators (it just makes sense). I'm going to order and see how it all goes together.

 

[magoo]

I'd consider the MCP 355.
Has a little more output than the 350, but is a teeny bit noisier.
Any reason why you're using two radiators?
I would think one 120.2 would handle the whole shootin' match? and reduce your headache?

 

[FaRKle0079]

Any reason why you're using two radiators?
I would think one 120.2 would handle the whole shootin' match? and reduce your headache?

A single 240mm radiator will not handle a GPU plus overclocked i5.

 

[danxmanly]

I'd still throw in a reservoir.. easier to bleed I do believe. Just my experience anyway plus you almost always guarantee your pump will never run dry as long as it's placed right after it.

Venting your exhaust out the top radiator in the case may sound good in theory, but it's using the hot air in the case to cool the water then. I have a single dual 120mm rad at the top of my case and pull air in and vent into the case. I tried both ways and pulling air in makes it cooler by close to 5C. Might be different for your case though.. try both. My single exhaust fan out the back seems to keep ambients down inside the case.

Would really hate for you to just dangle your pump. There are plenty of foam sticky pads you could use to mount the pump that will absorb most of the vibration.

Ideally, if you could splurge on an extra pump I'd totally separate the loops. Ya got two res's. So why not? It's only money! LOL

Good luck. Please post back your results as you test your various configs. I just completed my first build and still learning how to improve my setup.

 

[Mr. K6]

A single 240mm radiator will not handle a GPU plus overclocked i5.

Yeah, there's no way. I'd have to go with a beefy 360mm at least, and even then I know I'd want more.

I'd still throw in a reservoir.. easier to bleed I do believe. Just my experience anyway plus you almost always guarantee your pump will never run dry as long as it's placed right after it.

Venting your exhaust out the top radiator in the case may sound good in theory, but it's using the hot air in the case to cool the water then. I have a single dual 120mm rad at the top of my case and pull air in and vent into the case. I tried both ways and pulling air in makes it cooler by close to 5C. Might be different for your case though.. try both. My single exhaust fan out the back seems to keep ambients down inside the case.

Would really hate for you to just dangle your pump. There are plenty of foam sticky pads you could use to mount the pump that will absorb most of the vibration.

Ideally, if you could splurge on an extra pump I'd totally separate the loops. Ya got two res's. So why not? It's only money! LOL

Good luck. Please post back your results as you test your various configs. I just completed my first build and still learning how to improve my setup.

The T-line will be position as a direct column of fluid over the pump, so there should be no issues with it running dry, cavitating, etc. I admit this system will be a pain to bleed, but eh, running it over night usually works fine for this and I would run it that long anyway just to leak test it. I generally stay away from reservoirs as they're accidents waiting to happen, and a T-line is just that much more secure in my book. I'm going to play around with the orientation of the fans. Generally, if you have a well designed and balanced air flow pattern through the case, the air shouldn't be much warmer inside. Currently, I'm liking the idea of removing the rear 120mm fan and having the radiator draw air in passively from the back.

I don't want two pumps, certainly, just because of the noise. The MCP350 is actually as loud as I like to go, the MCP355 is just too much. That's why the XSPC top is a must, it's literally the best $20 spent in this whole project. I've dangled pumps before with no issue, but the more I look at it, I'm actually considering making a basket for it to rest in. There should be no vibration from it, and it will be supported.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, I'll post up pics as I piece it together. There really isn't going to be much eye-candy though, as this is purely a functional build for now. When I get more time I'll dress it up. I definitely want the side panel with the window, and I'll probably do some UV-white tubing with black compression fittings, braided cabling, etc., but that's all for later .

 

[Mr. K6]

Here's a quick update, I got the system together:

The system bled pretty well, still some air in it, but hopefully it'll leech out with time. The flow is absolutely amazing, I could not ask for better (but also why's difficult to leech out the last of the air). I hooked it up last night for some preliminary testing and this is what I got:

The i5 750 at 4.0GHz running Prime95 loads @ 58C

The 5850 at 1.1GHz running Furmark loads at @ 35C

The VRM's do get very hot though (110C+), so I'm going to point a smaller fan (92mm Panaflo I think) at them to keep the card cool. Preliminary testing having a 120mm aimed in the general direction of the card brought them down to 80C. I'm going to try to shoot for 4.2GHz on the CPU. After a little bit of testing last night, I think I'll run the 5850 @ 1050MHz @ 1.25V for daily usage. At that speed, the 5850 definitely has some pep, I can tell you that . Now I just have to assemble the entire case and setup the automatic fan control. Even with these fans on full blast, it's not even annoying, so this will still be a very quiet/silent system for the most part. Also, you can see how I ended up mounting the pump, and it works perfectly.

 

[jalyst]

In everyone's opinion...
Is the Scythe GT AP-15 still the bad-ass fan for rads if you want decent CFM, but not too noisy?

Any thoughts/advice massively appreciated!
Apologies for the OT question, I promise I'll be in/out in a flash, & I do love how the build's progressing

 

[Supercharged_Z06]

GT AP-15 (1850 rpm) is definitely the bad ass fan for rads when it comes to max CFM with min noise IMHO. I've got 11 of them in my rig on the rads. They are great fans. Make sure you shroud them if possible for max performance and even less noise (easily done by gutting some cheap 120mm fans and just using the housings). If you are using them in a push/pull config, you could also drop down to GT AP-14's. They have a bit less CFM but would be extremely quiet.

 

[Cat1yst]

I dunno... i heard if you put san ace's on a controller they can match if not beat the gentle typhoon for cfm/noise.
@OP
you should check to see if you can mod the 350... some of the pumps with the "black" impeller will voltmod up to 18w giving you a mcp355

 

[Supercharged_Z06]

I dunno... i heard if you put san ace's on a controller they can match if not beat the gentle typhoon for cfm/noise.

True, but you're looking at a lot more cost/trouble then. In my case, putting 11 fans on controllers would be a bit of a pain - both in wiring and in the wallet. Much easier to run straight voltage to them all and not have the extra worry to begin with.

 

[jalyst]

I dunno... i heard if you put san ace's on a controller they can match if not beat the gentle typhoon for cfm/noise.

I don't suppose you can recall where you saw the discussion on this?
I wonder if the same improvements would apply for GT's on a controller, would they then best San's on a controller?

Surely there's software about now, that in-union with ones mobo, is as good as any dedicated controller/rheobus?
I'd rather not fork-out for a controller too if that's the case...

So as to not hijack this thread any more....
Might be best responding here if you have an acct & you decide you want to.

Unless the OP is interested in discussing some of the Qns raised above.

Thanks/Cheers!

 

[jalyst]

GT AP-15 (1850 rpm) is definitely the bad ass fan for rads when it comes to max CFM with min noise IMHO. I've got 11 of them in my rig on the rads. They are great fans. Make sure you shroud them if possible for max performance and even less noise (easily done by gutting some cheap 120mm fans and just using the housings). If you are using them in a push/pull config, you could also drop down to GT AP-14's. They have a bit less CFM but would be extremely quiet.

Thanks for confirming, they seem to be universally lauded.
Unfortunately there's quite a few shortages around.

I've ordered just two for my rad, I'm going to see what my case comes with, if any.
If they're shit or I need more case fans, then I'll order some more AP-15 or AP-14.

11 GT for you rads, my god how big are your rads, and how many?!
I've only got a 240mm rad, more than enough for me, only cooling my CPU.
It's for a HTPC/PVR build, I'll be using the IGP, at least initially...

Yeah I'm prolly going to hold-off on shrouding initially, may add them later.
And maybe two more AP-15 for my rad for P+P later....

So as to not hijack this thread any more...
Might be best responding here if you have an acct & you decide you want to.

Thanks/Cheers!

 

[Supercharged_Z06]

Thanks for confirming, they seem to be universally lauded.
Unfortunately there's quite a few shortages around.

I've ordered just two for my rad, I'm going to see what my case comes with, if any.
If they're shit or I need more case fans, then I'll order some more AP-15 or AP-14.

11 GT for you rads, my god how big are your rads, and how many?!

Actually have 15 fans in total on my two rads (a Black Ice 360 and an XSPC 480), 11 GT's and 4 Scythe Kaze's.

Here's a pic of my system:
D800-02.jpg

Mr. K6, I'd consider moving your lower rad. Transform it into a 360 XSPC and hang it off the back like I did mine. You'll have LOTS more airflow and cooling power that way - plus room to set it up in a push/pull config. An internally mounted rads will never perform as well.

 

[jalyst]

Actually have 15 fans in total on my two rads (a Black Ice 360 and an XSPC 480), 11 GT's and 4 Scythe Kaze's.

Here's a pic of my system:
D800-02.jpg

Madness I say! LOL
I definitely do intend to mount mine externally too though.

And LT put it into a P+P w/shrouds....
Just for fun, it's really not necessary for the intended focus.

I'd love to hear from anyone if you've got ideas to add to my thread.
This one's just focusing on the WC side of my build...

Cheers

 

[Mr. K6]

Whoa, forgot about this thread, pretty relative discussion actually, as this was my "to-do list" for future upgrades/mods:

Side panel with window - won't be in stock for awhile according to Cooler Master, so I have to sit on that
Cut out grills - don't need to, air flow is excellent and hey, they trap larger objects from getting sucked in
Black sleeved extension(s) (mobo, CPU aux power, PCIe, etc.) - If I really want to bling it out
White Tubing with Black Compression fittings - or all black, or UV reactive, I haven't decided
Gentle Typhoons - not necessary (yet), see below

To be honest though, I've found airflow doesn't really matter. Literally, the temp difference between cranking my fans and running them at 5V is only 5-6C. My guess is my radiator capacity far exceeds the requirements of my system, so I'm going to hold off on spending money on the Gentle Typhoons if they aren't necessary. It's also funny that there's a shortage in Gentle Typhoons, as I was having difficulty scoring a Swiftech MCR220 when I was ordering my parts. Seems like the water cooling community is growing or our suppliers are shrinking .

Mr. K6, I'd consider moving your lower rad. Transform it into a 360 XSPC and hang it off the back like I did mine. You'll have LOTS more airflow and cooling power that way - plus room to set it up in a push/pull config. An internally mounted rads will never perform as well.

It'd ruin the aesthetics of the build (all internal) and I don't think there's much point as my temps are already fantastic. If I run into troubles it's something to consider, but so far I'm very impressed by these little guys.

Also, some long overdue pics of the completed build:


I actually removed the front 140mm fan because it was the loudest thing in my system, but temps haven't really changed. There's no more blue LEDs , but I think I might use that switch at the top to operate some CCFL's or something once I get the windowed side panel .

 

[jalyst]

Whoa, forgot about this thread, pretty relative discussion actually, as this was my "to-do list" for future upgrades/mods:
Side panel with window - won't be in stock for awhile according to Cooler Master, so I have to sit on that
Cut out grills - don't need to, air flow is excellent and hey, they trap larger objects from getting sucked in
Black sleeved extension(s) (mobo, CPU aux power, PCIe, etc.) - If I really want to bling it out
White Tubing with Black Compression fittings - or all black, or UV reactive, I haven't decided
Gentle Typhoons - not necessary (yet), see below

Cool, looking good mate, & I'm glad the points I've raised are still of interest to you!

Yeah for my build I've no interest in any blingy/flashy stuff...
It's for an ATX desktop form-factor case that'll sit in my lounge room.

But of course most of that stuff you've listed is for more than bling purposes.
And I can totally understand why some people want to pimp their gaming machines/workstations

To be honest though, I've found airflow doesn't really matter. Literally, the temp difference between cranking my fans and running them at 5V is only 5-6C. My guess is my radiator capacity far exceeds the requirements of my system, so I'm going to hold off on spending money on the Gentle Typhoons if they aren't necessary.

This is true, you get rapidly diminishing returns.
There's a base you start with depending on your total wattage, & from there -even with dramatic additions- the improvement gradient is very mild.
Compared to the jump on the same system from Air to LC etc.

It's also funny that there's a shortage in Gentle Typhoons, as I was having difficulty scoring a Swiftech MCR220 when I was ordering my parts. Seems like the water cooling community is growing or our suppliers are shrinking .

Yeah it's a PIA, apparently GT flow should be back to normal by Nov, finger crossed!
I'm just glad I managed to score two for my rad, which should be fine initially & possibly indefinitely.
Case fans might be another story though....

It'd ruin the aesthetics of the build (all internal) and I don't think there's much point as my temps are already fantastic. If I run into troubles it's something to consider, but so far I'm very impressed by these little guys.

If you look at the cases I'm looking at...
You'll see it's prolly even more aesthetically confronting to mount the rad externally!
Many would argue it's an eyesore on such cases, but I like a challenge

Also, some long overdue pics of the completed build:
I actually removed the front 140mm fan because it was the loudest thing in my system, but temps haven't really changed. There's no more blue LEDs , but I think I might use that switch at the top to operate some CCFL's or something once I get the windowed side panel .

Congrats and nice work dude, I hope it all finishes-off nicely for you.
Then again these things are never really finished are they?!

 

[jalyst]

I don't suppose you can recall where you saw the discussion on this?
I wonder if the same improvements would apply for GT's on a controller, would they then best San's on a controller?

Surely there's software about now, that in-union with ones mobo, is as good as any dedicated controller/rheobus?
I'd rather not fork-out for a controller too if that's the case...

So as to not hijack this thread any more....
Might be best responding here if you have an acct & you decide you want to.

Unless the OP is interested in discussing some of the Qns raised above.

I don't suppose anyone can add some thoughts to these 3 Qns I raised?

And I'd love to hear from anyone if you've got ideas to add to my thread.
This one's just focusing on the WC side of my build...

Thanks!