German Lawmakers Vote To Ban Internal Combustion Engine

Ducman69 said:
The world will never run out of oil, ever. We pass over known oil fields all the time because the cost of extraction is more than other sources, and its one of the reason offshore projects that weren't already underway are all getting canceled because there's no point when there is such a massive oversupply of oil right now. Oil will however become gradually more expensive, and eventually it will reach a point where gasoline costs more to manufacture than alternative fuels, including electric.

This will provide an organic smooth technology transition, likely in the form of greater adoption of hybrids that begin to rely less and less on the ICE component of the setup (right now, hybrids get most of their energy from gasoline still).
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I feel like you might not have much experience with Europe. The way you describe it is how it would happen in the USA, because people would complain profusely, ignore the government entirely and big businesses would pay them off. Germany might actually be able to pull this off, with their more group-minded culture, less incompetent politicians and stronger environmental awareness. It may get delayed a little, but it will happen and it will probably happen 50 years before it does in the USA.
 
Quix said:
I feel like you might not have much experience with Europe. The way you describe it is how it would happen in the USA, because people would complain profusely, ignore the government entirely and big businesses would pay them off. Germany might actually be able to pull this off, with their more group-minded culture, less incompetent politicians and stronger environmental awareness. It may get delayed a little, but it will happen and it will probably happen 50 years before it does in the USA.
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Good point. Except I have German citizenship.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
The fleet average econ (MPG) mandate is falling way is behind schedule. Automakers are finding it hard to convince people to make the improvements to ICE's they sought, and people aren't buying electric vehicles the way they hoped. Not that electric cars are that much better because you're just shifting from one polluting source to another and straining the grid in the process. (And way over 1/2 of power plant sources are still carbon based fossil fuels.)
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Nearly everything you say is valid, with the exception of automakers and internal combustion engine improvements. Blaming the customer is a joke.

Also, Nürburgring is crying.
 
I love the idea of pushing vehicle technology forward, I'm not sure a future "ban" (with lots and lots of room for delays by the way) is going to influence that.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
sure, you first....
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Flood insurance is partly financed/backed by the government. They had to to make it affordable. However the intent at the time was to help farmers located near water ways from ruined crops, livestock, and homes. Gov't: The ultimate proof of the law of unintended consequences.
 
Give me an electric car that can carry six people, two weeks of groceries, have decent millage when its 10 below 0 and drive through a foot of snow so I can get to work and I'll bite.
 
Rev Lemmon said:
Give me an electric car that can carry six people, two weeks of groceries, have decent millage when its 10 below 0 and drive through a foot of snow so I can get to work and I'll bite.
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When that becomes available, there won't be any jobs at Prudhoe Bay anymore.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
What does one do if they live in southern Germany and want to visit people in northern Germany and you don't have a petrol/diesel powered car that can get you there in a reasonable amount of time?
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I live in the southwest.
For long distance travels we use the ICE or TGV train.
Heidelberg -> Hamburg train 4:48 car 5:25.
Heidelberg -> Paris train 3:35 car 5:14
 
So many people here miss the point.

Any law can simply be undone by a government body. What this really is, is the German government trying to get their auto makers that are generally doing well to be at the forefront of several possible winning technologies. That will keep their automakers in a good position in the global market in the future. If the technology never materializes they will simply undo or amend the law 10 years from now. But in the mean time any investment in the technology will create expertise in the area in Germany, that may result in German automakers winning, or it may result in some of those experts seeing an opportunity to take that technology into a different market. Either way it is likely to results in segment leadership located in Germany.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
a gas powered vehicle that is cheap to maintain and allows me to support myself. When this law is implemented you are basically forcing people to buy into a technology that has no infrastructure, not cost effective, and does not allow for freedom of movement.... how is this a good thing for people that rely on their transportation for a living?

Electric? not practical for long trips
hydrogen? no infrastructure
Solar? okay if you think so....

What does one do if they live in southern Germany and want to visit people in northern Germany and you don't have a petrol/diesel powered car that can get you there in a reasonable amount of time?
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It is so painfully obvious you have never been to Germany nor seen their infrastructure.
 
Streiw said:
You're thinking too short term. Fossil fuels will be the bane of human existence. If people won't adopt new technologies, how can you expect said technology to flourish. I bet people had the same mentality when the combustion engine was invented and everyone with a horse and buggy was worried about money.
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I agree but I am skeptical about being able to do this by 2030. As someone else mentioned getting and storing Hydrogen takes a lot of energy and that energy has to come from somewhere. Like most nations the vast majority of Germany's energy still comes from fossil fuels so I'm not sure what that would accomplish unless there is also a dramatic shift in their energy sector as well.

Electric cars can work if you just stay in the city, but their range and charging speed is still too limited right now for a lot of uses. Battery technology needs to improve dramatically in the next 13-14 years...and producing and disposing of those batteries isn't very "green" right now either. Plus you have the same problem there...most of the energy is still coming from fossil fuels.
 
Ducman69 said:
I think its a mistake, as 2030 is not that far away, and I see this either being a failed endeavor with deadlines pushed further and further forward, or much of the population holding onto cars for decades and repairing them by being grandfathered in, like a first world Cuba. If measures are taken to prevent this, then I see a change in quality of life as people simply get used to less personal mobility, and have to ride on buses with the local piss soaked hobos to get to the office. Fun!

I also can't imagine how they think their economy can support this, when they continue to pour in hordes and hordes of poorly educated migrants, importing poverty and social strife into their borders, and regressing social progress while increasing criminality and bringing social services to a breaking point from the costs.

And I know German leaders think of the EU as their new Third Reich and that they can impose their will on all member states, but do we think the Greeks and Spanish and the like can afford new electric cars as well?

Even in the US, the average age of vehicles has now reached a staggering 11.5 years, thanks to new cars becoming ever more expensive while our swiss cheese Southern border exports poverty into our lands, who are buying some of the worst polluting, poorly maintained, ultra-high mileage old vehicles (which here in Houston is also becoming a massive burden on our infrastructure as the old pickup trucks they drive break down, causing huge rush hour pileups).
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I would like to make one very important correction since it is a focal point of your statement, statistics have shown that migrants are less likely to be violent, commit crime, or be incarcerated than the native population.
 
rudy said:
So many people here miss the point.

Any law can simply be undone by a government body. What this really is, is the German government trying to get their auto makers that are generally doing well to be at the forefront of several possible winning technologies. That will keep their automakers in a good position in the global market in the future. If the technology never materializes they will simply undo or amend the law 10 years from now. But in the mean time any investment in the technology will create expertise in the area in Germany, that may result in German automakers winning, or it may result in some of those experts seeing an opportunity to take that technology into a different market. Either way it is likely to results in segment leadership located in Germany.
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So they're a marketing team for Germany©?
 
The Bundesrat can only suggest laws... so the whole "…the country’s top legislative body" is wrong from the start. Some laws can only become law if the Bundesrat agrees, some don't need that step.

Also, some people here have weird impressions of Europe or Germany. There are people here with Telsa cars already, having no problems at all driving from the south to the north of Germany.

But - that suggestion of the Bundesrat is really just a kick in the ass of the German car makers to get their shit together and not to be outdone by companies like Tesla. There will be no ban in 2030. But there will be huge incentives by then, I'm sure. Gas and diesel are fossil fuels in more than one sense.
 
demingo said:
It is so painfully obvious you have never been to Germany nor seen their infrastructure.
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it's so painfully obvious that having your own means of cheap reliable transportation is BY FAR BETTER than being constrained by when mass transit is available to take you where you need to go... but that's a liberal for you... never thinks about the obvious NEGATIVE impact their decisions have on others...

why don't you put your money where your mouth is and give up the convenience of your car?
 
I've always felt that a lot of people have unhealthy relationships with their cars. So much that they don't want them to change in any /not superficial/ way. Because change is dark and scary place where loved ones get lost :(
 
dgz said:
I've always felt that a lot of people have unhealthy relationships with their cars. So much that they don't want them to change in any /not superficial/ way. Because change is dark and scary place where loved ones get lost :(
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Same can be said for computers. And just about everything else.
 
Merkels government is a total trainwreck. They let ideology go ahead of common sense and they hurt the country. Best example being the policy towards refugees - the whole country is in chaos with the terror they bring.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
it's so painfully obvious that having your own means of cheap reliable transportation is BY FAR BETTER than being constrained by when mass transit is available to take you where you need to go... but that's a liberal for you... never thinks about the obvious NEGATIVE impact their decisions have on others...

why don't you put your money where your mouth is and give up the convenience of your car?
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Well my brother in law who is German, doesn't own a car. They use trains and planes where ever they go. They have a car pool for random needs.

Germany built a huge transportation network during WW2 and it didn't go anywhere. But OTOH many Germans are nuts about cars and autobahn is a big thing there.
 
DukenukemX said:
I wish it was at 2020.
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There's no way we could make that transition in 4 years. As others have said, even 2030 may be aggressive, but it may be easier in Germany, where fuel is probably 4x as much as the U.S..
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
a gas powered vehicle that is cheap to maintain and allows me to support myself. When this law is implemented you are basically forcing people to buy into a technology that has no infrastructure, not cost effective, and does not allow for freedom of movement.... how is this a good thing for people that rely on their transportation for a living?

Electric? not practical for long trips
hydrogen? no infrastructure
Solar? okay if you think so....

What does one do if they live in southern Germany and want to visit people in northern Germany and you don't have a petrol/diesel powered car that can get you there in a reasonable amount of time?
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Why would you drive if you can take a train that's faster (and the trains often are faster)? Besides, you're assuming there won't be infrastructure. While I think it's agressive, a lot can change in 15 years.
 
Megalith said:
Germany’s federal council has passed a resolution calling for a ban on new internal combustion engine cars by 2030. Basically, there is a good chance that Germans will have to operate an electric or hydrogen fuel cell vehicle by then. This accompanies ongoing incentives for switching to pollution-free cars, such as tax credits.

The modern internal combustion engine first came from Germany and now Germany wants to put a nail in its coffin. The Bundesrat has passed a resolution to ban the ICE beginning in 2030. …the country’s top legislative body was able to reach a bi-partisan agreement that hopes to allow only zero-emission vehicles on EU roads in 14 years. For the resolution to be instituted across Europe, it will have to be approved by the EU. But according to Forbes, “German regulations traditionally have shaped EU and UNECE regulations.”
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hydrogen fuel cell? I think you mean pure electric, that will dwarf any idiotic move to hydrogen powered cars.
 
evilsofa said:
How soon do you expect the world to run out of oil, and what is your plan for when that occurs?
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Saudi Arabia has at least 70 years of known reserves and we constantly seem to find more oil. That said, it'd make sense to have things like cars run off of something else, so that we have jet fuel for planes, because I suspect we're many decades away from a different way to power commercial jets.

15 years is aggressive, but they obviously think it's doable. It's not like these things can't be changed if necessary.
 
nilepez said:
Why would you drive if you can take a train that's faster (and the trains often are faster)? Besides, you're assuming there won't be infrastructure. While I think it's agressive, a lot can change in 15 years.
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a. I can go at my own pace
b. I can carry MORE stuff if needed
c. I do not have to leave on someone else's schedule
d. I do not have to rent/borrow a car when I am at my destination if I want to do something that transit cannot get me to.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
people have been saying we would run out of oil by [insert some made up date here].. it has not happened yet.. matter of fact they keep finding MORE of it....
you want it, you pay for it... this just another liberal entity trying to force their precontrived OMG if we don't do this, X is going to happen....
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Do you live in Germany? If not, why are you so upset?
 
Rev Lemmon said:
Give me an electric car that can carry six people, two weeks of groceries, have decent millage when its 10 below 0 and drive through a foot of snow so I can get to work and I'll bite.
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Hi, some of the electric cars (like the model s, probably the x) can warm the battery and cabin at a scheduled time, so you could get it up to temp overnight then the batteries only have to keep it warm instead of warming it up from 10 below 0 Fahrenheit. I think the way the tech is now it only is good for folks that do not live in areas where they turn into poorly designed snow plows or if they do just use the ev when not winter, keep a suburban 4x4 or something to haul all your crap and meatbags around in the nasty weather.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
So, you think that kind of stupidity is only in Germany? Boy, have you got a lot to learn....
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Yeah. What good is progress in a certain field if the solutions it offers don't fix every problem ever!!!
 
Gentlemen, you don't get it? This is all about UN agenda 2030. Global Governance up all of our anuses, while our GOD given rights are modified into privileges! We are hated and viewed like sheep, I really wish you folks would see that besides arguing among yourselves. The few ultra rich elitists have too much power to control the global agenda.

The American election of 2016 is about submitting to a Global Governance or keeping our National Sovereignty. See what it really is and stop looking into the weeds.
 
nilepez said:
Why would you drive if you can take a train that's faster (and the trains often are faster)? Besides, you're assuming there won't be infrastructure. While I think it's agressive, a lot can change in 15 years.
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Trains are almost never faster unless you live at the train station, are staying at the train station your traveling to and always want to leave at the exact same time the train is leaving.

Take for instance one of the largest tourist attractions in Europe, Disneyland Paris. I can load the kids and all of our stuff up into the car and it's a 4 and half hour drive until I pull up at Disney's Newport Bay Club. To take a train I'd either need to cab or walk to the train station, transfer my luggage and family to the train, then spend 6 and half hours on 5 different trains and then walk or cab it from Gare de Marne la Vallée Chessy station to the hotel kids and luggage in tow.
 
This isn't something Germany is alone about. Countries individually or even cities wants this as well.
 
B00nie said:
Gas is already around 10 bucks a gallon in many EU countries.
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The nearest Shell gas station here may not be the cheapest. But I can list prices.

92 leadfree 11.23DKK per liter. (6.39USD/Gallon)
95 leadfree 11.27DKK per liter. (6.42USD/Gallon)
Diesel 9.69DKK per liter. (5.52USD/Gallon)

3.78541 liters to a US gallon.
6.65 DKK per USD.

This is all Danish prices. So very high in Europe. Nobody in Europe is even paying close to 10USD/Gallon.
 
so lots of power cuts in Germanys future since im confident they wont invest in the necessary power grid upgrades.
 
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