Gabe Don't Know Nuttin' 'Bout DRM

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Kyle_Bennett, Mar 11, 2009.

  1. Kyle_Bennett

    Kyle_Bennett El Chingón Staff Member

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    Even though Gabe Newell and Valve are behind the biggest distribution system for game downloads in the world, Aladdin's John Gunn (of ex-VistionTek, ex-3dfx, and ex-STB fame) calls Gabe a "noob."

    Gabe is basically talking about DRM being a problem and Gunn does not like that, well because he works for a company that profits off your DRM headache. Gunn says:

    He however offers NO PROOF to back up his statement of "fact."

    John then goes on to talk up Gabe as a personal connection and use the word "pwned" so as to not look like a total dickhead. (I can say "dickhead" here right? Sure. Why not if it fits?)

    The FTC has an upcoming conference focusing on DRM in which Gunn will be involved in.

     
  2. Zepher

    Zepher [H]ipster Replacement

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    DRM causes more problems than it solves, at least in my personal experience.
     
  3. phide

    phide Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    Well, naturally. No such evidence exists. No such evidence could ever reasonably exist. D'oh!

    I smell a gasbag! Perhaps we should invite him over here for a bit of a civil chat? Could be fun, right?
     
  4. samborarocks

    samborarocks Gawd

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    "Good DRM is proven to reduce piracy and does not impede sales."


    If only it were true I'd have no problem with DRM but in reality it's just a giant PAIN ....

    Good DRM does not exist right now.

    my 2 cents....

    SR
     
  5. AaronP

    AaronP Bad [H]SS Mofo

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    Gabe Newell left Microsoft after working on Direct X to start Valve, and look where Valve is now. I think Gabe knows what he's doing ;).
     
  6. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Of course this jerk-off is going to say Gabe is wrong. He probably doesn't even know dick about what DRM does to some customers. He likely sits on his high horse all day and doesn't bother to listen to what the end-users say about this shit.

    Funny how his statement about good DRM reducing piracy only applies to Steam. Steam is the only "good" form of DRM there is. CD keys and disc check can be argued, but they're not even considered DRM by most people these days.
     
  7. pxc

    pxc Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    LOL I like how Newell completely ignores his own DRM, that goes one step worse: preventing resale. I do think Steam is DRM, especially since off-line mode rarely works and I have to log into Steam each Windows session I want to play a game (saved password or not, it's calling home each time). People cried about EA proposing that Spore would call home every couple of weeks. My Steam session calls home every time I start it. :p

    Last I checked Spore doesn't do that and I can still resell all my EA games. Down with "bad" DRM and long live "good" (the very restrictive type) DRM. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Defconn1

    Defconn1 n00bie

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    No DRM is good, including STEAM which disallows you to give or sell your games if you wanted. Also in their SSA they plainly explain that they do not have to fix any problems, and they don't have to give you anything in case your account is locked/termed. You could theoretically lose it all by a click of a mouse (on their end). And most of the new stuff they are offering is at full price? I can't see how that's even priced right.
     
  9. BladeVenom

    BladeVenom [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just dishonest BS from a snake oil salesman. Gabe's proven himself right with the success of Steam.
     
  10. Defconn1

    Defconn1 n00bie

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    Well said. :) I've been bitching about this to people for a long time now (not around here) but there are just too many fanboys who quote me the Steam Subscriber Agreement like I don't know what it says. The point is that it shouldn't be like this, and I can't understand why people are defending it anyways!
     
  11. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I really wish more people would do their research before bitching about Steam's prices (at least in the US. EU people, bitch away).

    A: Valve doesn't set prices for 3rd party titles.
    B: Retail agreements prevent publishers from offering games cheaper (Gamestop seems to be especially bad with these agreements).

    Retail is still insanely important to PC games and considering nearly all publishers are multiplatform publishers no one wants to piss them off.
     
  12. samborarocks

    samborarocks Gawd

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    Follow up: John (ex...., ex....,ex.....) IS a Dickhead, and needs to 'wake the f**k up.
     
  13. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Gabe's proven his anti-DRM stance right with a DRM filled service? Am I the only one that doesn't see where that makes any sense?
     
  14. westrock2000

    westrock2000 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Speaking of Steam and DRM. About a year ago I bought Half Life 2 at Best Buy for $10 cause I wanted something to play when World Of Warcraft did it weekly server maintance. So I started playing it, and about 2 weeks later our cable went out for a day. So I thought it would be a great time to play some Half Life 2. Nope....since I did not have an active internet connection, I was not allowed to play a $10 game that has zero Internet capability (IE, its completely offline single player only).

    It pissed me off so much that I have actually not played the game since.

    What about the Xbox version of HL2 (The Orange Box), do you have to have an active Xbox Live connection to play that too???
     
  15. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Offline Mode has been buggy for years. I've had to use it before and haven't had any real issues, but a lot of people have.
     
  16. westrock2000

    westrock2000 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Oh and ya someone did give me their Half Life 2 discs before I bought and thats where I discovered it was like $15 to buy a license to use the discs.....versus paying $10 for a brand new in the box with a manual from the store.

    Its awsome.
     
  17. westrock2000

    westrock2000 [H]ardness Supreme

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    I did try that several times, but the application would just sit there for several minutes and then return an error saying the connection was active....I was like ya, thats why I'm trying to use "offline".
     
  18. westrock2000

    westrock2000 [H]ardness Supreme

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    ^^ Edit for above

    *connection was INactive*
     
  19. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Its astounding that they haven't fixed it yet. I mean Offline Mode was bugged to shit from day one.
     
  20. samborarocks

    samborarocks Gawd

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    Agreed, Steam should fix the 'offline mode problem' (didn't realize this was still going on). Personally, i've never had a problem with Steam (EA as well as Pinnacle, is another story).....


    SR
     
  21. fightingfi

    fightingfi [H]ard|Gawd

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    Gabe Newell a noob? err best game ever made in PC History yo( Half Life 98 percent ) , most succesful online provider of gaming,(Steam) 13 yrs at Microsoft..DX King of teh world..Best story line of any game ever made( half life1,2 and episodes 1 and 2 ).Gabe eats Chinese food to and he a noob? I dun Tink So...Half Life 3 ....2010? I am teh G Man :cool:
     
  22. digitalfreak

    digitalfreak Limp Gawd

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    This John guy is an asshat. Never trust the words of someone who has something to gain by saying them.
     
  23. samborarocks

    samborarocks Gawd

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    Did you even read the thread (from start to finish?)..............:confused:
     
  24. samborarocks

    samborarocks Gawd

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    hrmm, maybe 'mis-uderstood' this post. That would make ME the idiot............ should've looked before I lept...........

    SR
     
  25. BladeVenom

    BladeVenom [H]ardness Supreme

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    Gabe was against "dumb DRM". He never said he was against all DRM. He thinks the benefits should outweigh the negatives. Judging by the success of Steam, most gamers agree that the benefits of Steam usually outweighs its negatives.I personally prefer Stardock's philosophy.
     
  26. samborarocks

    samborarocks Gawd

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    +1, I can live with this, but what happens if Steam goes 'under'.
     
  27. Derangel

    Derangel [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Valve has promised to patch out Steam requirements for its games if that happens.
     
  28. Nenu

    Nenu Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    How 'bad' the effects of DRM are depends on what has the DRM as well as how draconian the DRM is.

    DRM has prevented customers playing music except on the single device it was purchased for and some DRM has reduced sound quality!
    Not something thats made me want to buy music with DRM.
    It has been proven that any DRM on music hurts sales, and is the major reason that DRM-less music is making a comeback.


    Movie DRM can be a pain in the arse, requiring software updates to keep up with the latest version and people do suffer problems getting media to play.
    You also need DHCP compliant hardware or if you have a PC, Any-DVD HD will let you view the high definition picture using an older gfx card / PC display.
    (I've had to reboot a few times to get movies to play because the DRM has become upset and no longer thinks I am HDCP compliant)

    Blu Ray movie audio is so strongly protected that with a fully HDCP compliant Video Card, Amplifier and TV you cant get it to play.
    Even using Any-DVD wont let you play the High Def channels untouched as the software Blu Ray players downsample it to the same bitrate as SPDIF/Optical anyway!
    For PC, the only ways round this are to rip the movie + HD audio to an unprotected video format so it can be played on a different player (ie MPC-Home Cinema) or to buy a new expensive soundcard like the Asus HDAV that comes with its own Blu Ray player software.


    Game DRM is painful in many ways we all know.
    ie DVD player cant play the disk requiring you to use a crack which may have a virus, requires online activation, requires you to be online and authenticated to play, requires making and using multiple online accounts (eg GTA IV with GFWL and Rockstar Games logins), other problems getting the game to run...

    DRM has been proven to be a detriment to sales, prevents media being played and does piss off the consumer in many other ways.
    What was he saying again?
     
  29. Tekara

    Tekara 2[H]4U

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    The more pertinent fear is what steam will do with old games. While they've made a clause about what will happen if steam dies off, little is said how long steam feels obligated to keep a game available. While we the consumers will readily claim "forever," Is it really in steams best interest to keep supporting abandonware?
     
  30. Saist

    Saist Limp Gawd

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    lesse...

    on one hand we have a guy who has built a successful Digital Distribution Platform... is already eying (and programming) that Digital Distribution Platform for other Operating Systems and platforms... who controls development teams that have a successful history of catching and DOING something about the type of people who hack around games...

    versus a guy who was VP Channel Sales at 3dfx, a company long deceased due to massive mis-steps in the retail market; director of marketing at STB, a company that I've honestly never heard of, and the top search for STB Systems results in a driver download for video adapters; and worked for VisionTek, a company I have heard of, but during 2001 to 2004 when HardOCP had less than polite things to say, including a near, if not actual, bankruptcy in 2002.

    Right off hand, when it comes to selling to the retail market and figuring out what the market wants the most, I think Gabe and company at Valve have a much better handle on things than John Gunn.
     
  31. digitalfreak

    digitalfreak Limp Gawd

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    IIRC, STB was a board maker (like EVGA, etc.) that was bought out by 3dfx so they could sell directly to the channel, instead of through 3rd parties like Diamond. Wasn't too long after that that 3dfx went tits up, with the remains being gobbled up by Nvidia.
     
  32. digitalfreak

    digitalfreak Limp Gawd

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  33. kllrnohj

    kllrnohj [H]ardness Supreme

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    There is a major difference that you gloss over like it isn't even there. Spore phones home to check up on you, steam phones home to provide you with a service. Do you bitch out your email client every time it phones home?

    Steam may be DRM, but it is so much more. Given the choice between retail or steam, I always buy on Steam. Its just so convenient. I can redownload games I own whenever I want, I don't need to carry around CDs, the in game steam overlay is pretty hot, etc... I think I only ever use offline mode maybe a dozen times a year, if that. It always works fine for me, but I primarily use steam when connected (after all, Left4Dead and TF2 just aren't as much fun single player ;) )

    Of course, your suggestion that Steam prevents resale is bullshit, since a vast majority of the games on Steam have a retail version as well (that doesn't require Steam), yet hundreds of thousands of people still buy it on Steam. So quite obviously that point is false.
     
  34. rickyyo

    rickyyo n00bie

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    I never had the offline problem... I might have to wait a couple of minutes... but eventually it would work and go to my games list ... thats after a few installs of steam and a couple of operating system changes and reformats.
     
  35. Biskquik

    Biskquik Limp Gawd

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    Steam phones home for user information and ownership information. It's the same as EA. However, it doesn't include a DRM that will cause a user distress if he simply owns a piece of drive emulation software or some other piece of software.

    Re-selling games with install limits that don't have revoke tools (I think the retail version of Mass Effect is guilty of this) can certainly cause one's ebay seller rating to decrease. Gamestop/EB aren't at all interested in used PC games either.

    Gog.com has the best policy for DRM.
     
  36. SamuraiInBlack

    SamuraiInBlack [H]ardness Supreme

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    You haven't seen the latest pathetic addition to the Steam titles have you? Look up The Graveyard. Even at five bucks, I really don't think its worth even that. If they're willing to make that thing available, I think holding onto titles that people actually loved playing will not be a problem.

    What people forget is that if you have a problem with not being able to sell/trade your games, you most likely aren't going to be buying them on Steam in the first place. And honestly? I don't know how you trader types are with the PC games, but I am hoping you're legit and thus why this is your dislike of it. Personally, I have seen and met too many people who get too shady with that shit. Its either not a legit copy of the game, or the CD key is stolen or already registered, or some other thing where you end up getting hosed. Last time I bought a PC game off someone I got stuck with a pretty looking coaster and a good looking retail box, because he registered the key and has no idea how to unregister it and won't go through the trouble for it. Needless to say that person and I don't talk much anymore. That said, with Steam, it's more of a thing of, don't buy it if you think there may come a day you will never want to play it again.

    Offline mode - yes it sucks for the occasional net outage, but i myself have not had a problem with it working. Maybe I've just lucked out. But I guess I don't see the problem from the perspective of the strictly offline gamer - how are you chatting on this forum if you're offline?

    Of course Steam is going to connect to its servers on startup - it's a service! You think the future patches and updates for the Steam client as well as updates for all the various games on it are automagically encoded in the first steam installer you downloaded and just slowly released over time? People seem to forget that little bit of convenience. I'd rather be able to start up Steam and get a game update downloading than to dick around with hunting patches myself (assuming the game has no internal update feature). The alternative I've found is sitting at some file server site in one of their public servers for 2 hours, waiting for a prompt that I'm next up to download, just because I'm not willing to pay a monthly fee to download FREE game patches at ludicrous speed. Fuck that. If that's the alternative, give me Steam. At least my download starts when it checks to make sure they're all up to date and finds that they're not.

    All in all I guess I don't see what the big deal is with the way Steam does things, given these points. For those that do have problems getting their offline session going, I will concede that yes something should be done. Obviously a lot of people are having this issue and it seems they're always rolling out updates to the Steam client, so it shouldn't be an ignored issue without valid reason (hacked steam clients come to mind, and yes, they exist, whether you want to deny it or not).

    But if I honestly had to have a reason to not like Steam, it'd be this - Not all the games have a PDF of the manuals, which gets annoying because, hey, I actually RTFM!

    Second reason? There's no collector's edition stuff. Obviously I can't download myself a GTA4 lockbox or dufflebag, but having maybe the soundtrack as an available download would be nice as well, or maybe the artbook in a high resolution image format. Or even getting a keycode to the developer website so I can download it there at my leisure. I wouldn't mind seeing that. I'm not a collector's edition whore, but for certain titles, I wouldn't mind paying the extra for the extras.
     
  37. dandirk

    dandirk [H]ard|Gawd

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    He said DRM has not impeded sales...

    Which for the most part I probably agree. The techies that are willing to boycott DRM'ed items are probably not nearly a large enough segment to be counted.

    Just as Wal-mart doesn't really give a rip that I will never buy anything from them, except maybe gift cards for people that have not problem shopping there...

    This pro DRM imbecile never mentions, support costs that DRM causes or frustration by end users. These are costs the indirectly effect net sales/profits, which most people generally ignore.

    Lets face it (if someone has DRM issues) most people will just get pissed and say they will never buy from xyz, then in 2 yrs the next hot game is out and they are waiting in line at midnight.

    I am not that confident that DRM will ever improve (at least in USA), I am not sure the American consumer cares about anything other then price and consumption. When push comes to shove, very few Americans will stand for their "morals" vs cheap price and or shinny thing.
     
  38. dandirk

    dandirk [H]ard|Gawd

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    Darn edit...

    And this is coming from a American Comsumer that buys $12 shirts, $20 jeans, has a used car that is payed off, and over $15,000 in computer and theater equipment:D
     
  39. Modred189

    Modred189 I'm Smarter Than You

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    I am a fan of legit DRM.
    Case in Point: I
    LOVE
    STEAM.
    It lets me play my games anywhere I want, installed on as many computers as I wish, and not only stays out of the way, but enhances my gaming experience with in-game internet browsing, a chat client, achievement tracking (I'm a whore), and a friends list with game-joining.

    Imagine if other vendors adopted a similar distribution model... If I could install my copy of, say, Photoshop, or Office, on any computer I want and use it anywhere.
    Perfect merging of the cloud and... er... the land!
     
  40. spock

    spock Gawd

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    No matter how you slice it, STEAM IS DRM. I don't care if you like it or don't but it IS a form of DRM and should be treated as such. In my case, I choose to avoid it completely but I guess there are quite a few people who don't care. Honestly I much prefer the old Safedisc stuff for copy protection because at least it didn't phone home.

    As for Valve patching out DRM from the games if they shut down the Steam servers -- do you really believe that? You've seen the recent economy and how fast things can fall. Honestly do you think writing or deploying those patches would be a priority in certain circumstances?