G-Sync First Impressions from TR Forums

[ShuttleLuv]

I'd argue the opposite.

As far as I can see, lightboost monitors utterly destroy motion fluidity. I end up seeing a series of stills which doesn't look nearly as smooth as a regular LCD with an always-on backlight.


I game on these monitors too, that's why I got three of them instead of just two (so I could do Eyefinity / Surround).

Like I said though, I don't see the point of Lightboost in games. It gives everything that "series of still images" look, and removes all semblance of fluidity. On top of that, those stills persist and create apparent double, triple, and quadrupel-image stroboscopic artifacts on anything that moves. It's awful for gaming.


Except your primary use-case for Lightboost doesn't work for me either. I wouldn't even use it as a gaming-only monitor. You couldn't pay me to use it as a gaming-only monitor, it looks that bad while gaming...

If you read any reviews on it beforehand, you'd know it has slight dither to colors, slightly dimmer, slight pwm flicker in some cases, and the need for a good, stable, color profile as a mainly gaming oriented monitor. So you knew this beforehand.

 

[ShuttleLuv]

We don't even know if you or the person you "observed" the Lightboost monitor with set it up properly. In the beginning it was a bit tricky to set up, some games showed double images more frequently etc. You might be in the minority....because I honestly have not seen one person attack the motion clarity of Lightboost except you. Most attacks come on the obvious color dithering/banding, and colors out of the box, TN panel, TN viewing angles, etc.

 

[xoleras]

I thought I clicked on a g-sync thread. Oh wait.

 

[Unknown-One]

If you read any reviews on it beforehand

You assume I didn't?

I read the reviews, and then I went ahead and tweaked with some Lightboost-capable monitors in-person.

you'd know it has slight dither to colors, slightly dimmer, slight pwm flicker in some cases, and the need for a good, stable, color profile as a mainly gaming oriented monitor. So you knew this beforehand.

What does "knowing this before-hand" have to do with Lightboost appearing many, MANY times worse than any review could possibly convey when I view it in-person?

Those other issues are all sideline to the fact that Lightboost is supposed to be a massive upgrade as far as smoothness goes when compared to a normal 120Hz monitor... but I'd take the normal 120Hz monitor every. single. time.

We don't even know if you or the person you "observed" the Lightboost monitor with set it up properly. In the beginning it was a bit tricky to set up, some games showed double images more frequently etc.

Why is "observed" in quotes? Are you questioning weather or not I've seen it, again

And I see double-images on ALL low-frequency PWM-backlit displays. LightBoost is forced to operate at low-frequency since it must be synced to the refresh rate of the display, so there's no way to fix it for me. The tech is fundamentally flawed for anyone who can see the flicker.

A display that can ACTUALLY update faster + a solid non-pwm backlight is always going to be a better solution than attempting to fake it by hiding pixel transitions.

You might be in the minority....because I honestly have not seen one person attack the motion clarity of Lightboost except you. Most attacks come on the obvious color dithering/banding, and colors out of the box, TN panel, TN viewing angles, etc.

The primary selling-point is problematic enough. As you said, the color issues are secondary to the smoothness (which I don't see).

 

[ShuttleLuv]

You assume I didn't?

I read the reviews, and then I went ahead and tweaked with some Lightboost-capable monitors in-person.


What does "knowing this before-hand" have to do with Lightboost appearing many, MANY times worse than any review could possibly convey when I view it in-person?

Those other issues are all sideline to the fact that Lightboost is supposed to be a massive upgrade as far as smoothness goes when compared to a normal 120Hz monitor... but I'd take the normal 120Hz monitor every. single. time.


Why is "observed" in quotes? Are you questioning weather or not I've seen it, again

And I see double-images on ALL low-frequency PWM-backlit displays. LightBoost is forced to operate at low-frequency since it must be synced to the refresh rate of the display, so there's no way to fix it for me. The tech is fundamentally flawed for anyone who can see the flicker.

A display that can ACTUALLY update faster + a solid non-pwm backlight is always going to be a better solution than attempting to fake it by hiding pixel transitions.


The primary selling-point is problematic enough. As you said, the color issues are secondary to the smoothness (which I don't see).

Some quotes from Mark Rejhon:

Too bright at a setting of 30?
Or bothered by PWM flicker?

If you're bothered by PWM: Try raising brightness to 100% and obtain a high quality neutral-density filter sheet to put in front of your monitor to darken the picture. It will stop the flickering completely. The filter has its disadvantages (e.g. glossy)

If you're bothered by brightness: It's worth noting that enabling LightBoost dramatically dims the picture, especially at the LightBoost 10% setting (via monitor OSD). It's much dimmer, and as a bonus, gives you 80%+ clearer motion than the regular 120 Hz or 144 Hz mode -- LightBoost eliminates motion blur and gives you the "CRT perfect motion" zero motion blur effect. The name is a misnomer for 2D gaming -- LightBoost is only "light boosted" during 3D due to synchronized backlight flashes through shutter glasses -- it actually dims the picture for 2D. For people who like CRT and hate bright pictures, you get the best of both worlds -- a dimmer picture and CRT-quality zero motion blur. (Though I personally prefer my LightBoost at 100%)
Edited by mdrejhon - 2/7/13 at 7:34am

Yep. Shorter backlight strobes (1.4ms) at 10% setting than at 100% setting (2.4ms strobes). This results in clearer motion during ultra-fast motion such as fast 180-degree flicks in FPS shooters. Vega says he can tell the difference in motion blur between the 10% setting and the 100% setting. Many people can't tell, though as everything already looks zero motion blur. I'm able to tell -- just about -- but only during very fast motion (e.g. strafing in front of a wall, fast 180 flicks, etc). It means the difference in PixPerAn readability score of 25 versus PixPerAn readability 30 -- your eyes can barely track that fast, even with your neck helping. Points of diminishing do occur!

The motion blur differences of all modes on the ASUS VG248QE and BENQ XL2411T which use the same 1ms panel:

60 Hz = baseline
120 Hz regular = 50% less motion blur than 60Hz
120 Hz LightBoost(100%) = 85% less motion blur than 60Hz
120 Hz LightBoost(10%) = 92% less motion blur than 60Hz

These are actual motion test results; confirmed by me (BENQ XL2411T) and Vega (XL2411T and VG248QE). You can also use PixPerAn to confirm these motion blur differences yourself too.
Edited by mdrejhon - 2/7/13 at 11:07am

1. We have no proof you actually used lightboost (and when you factor in you already have three monitors, makes even more sense)

2. Was it calibrated properly color wise?

3. Was it set up properly? (As I said, earlier in it's life it was trickier to get going).

4. Again, we've been over how 100% brightness is pwm free, so you're picking at TN panels and Lightboost tech in general.....over....and over....and over. If you prefer IPS, stay with IPS. Who's to say you couldn't get a VG248QE and just run it in standard 144hz mode with 100% brightness pwm free? But no, you keep nit picking the TN panel tech and Lightboost in general, because you're a cynical, bitter guy when nobody is forcing you to even think about it. If it left such a bitter taste in your mouth, why keep dredging it up?

5. Why are you in a Gsync thread when you know the first edition of Gsync is TN panel and on top of that, the drop in kit is for the VG248QE, which you loath? I doubt you being an IPS guy, would bother with a TN panel for Gsync. Maybe once they become available on IPS perhaps, but will the motion clarity suffer? Thats another question entirely.

6. You really need to check your eyes out at a doctor or perhaps as I said, play on a lightboost monitor daily for about two weeks to a month every day playing some Quake.

 

[wonderfield]

It's much dimmer, and as a bonus, gives you 80%+ clearer motion than the regular 120 Hz or 144 Hz mode -- LightBoost eliminates motion blur

If LightBoost eliminated motion blur, how could it only exhibit 80% clearer motion? This is a complete misnomer: low-persistence does not eliminate motion blur.

Was it calibrated properly color wise?

Do color-calibrated displays demonstrate increased PWM frequency?

Again, we've been over how 100% brightness is pwm free

Theoretically, yes. In actual practice? That may depend on the display.

 

[xoleras]

Personally, here's what I think. I don't like TN panels for productivity or using windows for content creation. At all. I'm very much an IPS guy, i've used 1600p panels for years and very much prefer them for general use. However, for gaming, lightboost panels are very very good. I don't notice the flicker which Unknown refers to, all I know is that it is damn smooth and very good for competetive gaming. My solution is using dual monitors. I use a lightboost panel for gaming (SOMETIMES, depending on the game - particularly FPS games) while I have 1600p panels for "general use". It really is the best of both worlds. I don't notice flickering really with lightboost, but I do notice how much smoother it is than IPS. Much smoother in motion. On the other hand, color clarity and viewing angles are obviously shit in comparison to the IPS panel in windows / general use. That is to be expected.

In short, pick your poison. IPS isn't perfect, lightboost isn't perfect, TN isn't perfect, there is not a single monitor technology that is perfect. With IPS you get great colors and better viewing angles at the expense of poor contrast ratios and poor black levels. With TN lightboost you get great motion with poor viewing angles and poor color clarity. IMO, lightboost is better for competetive gaming, but worse for general usage. So pick your poison. Not sure why we're debating this for pages and pages! There is NOT ONE panel technology that is perfect. Not a single one. They all have drawbacks. Hell, even if you want to argue CRTs are great - I don't miss CRTs one fucking bit. A 50 pound 19 inch CRT that has more heat output than 3 space heaters? With dampening wires for trinitron? No thanks. I don't miss CRTs whatsoever. Even IF they had great motion smoothness.

TL'DR: no monitor technology is perfect. Period! Pick your poison. People can argue ALL DAY LONG about what they like better - but that doesn't change the fact that IPS has drawbacks. Tn has drawbacks. VA has drawbacks. EVERY PANEL TECH in existence has flaws. Which is kinda saddening, but that's the situation. Pick the technology that works for you, no need to argue about it. IMO!

 

[ShuttleLuv]

Personally, here's what I think. I don't like TN panels for productivity or using windows for content creation. At all. I'm very much an IPS guy, i've used 1600p panels for years and very much prefer them for general use. However, for gaming, lightboost panels are very very good. I don't notice the flicker which Unknown refers to, all I know is that it is damn smooth and very good for competetive gaming. My solution is using dual monitors. I use a lightboost panel for gaming (SOMETIMES, depending on the game - particularly FPS games) while I have 1600p panels for "general use". It really is the best of both worlds. I don't notice flickering really with lightboost, but I do notice how much smoother it is than IPS. Much smoother in motion. On the other hand, color clarity and viewing angles are obviously shit in comparison to the IPS panel in windows / general use. That is to be expected.

In short, pick your poison. IPS isn't perfect, lightboost isn't perfect, TN isn't perfect, there is not a single monitor technology that is perfect. With IPS you get great colors and better viewing angles at the expense of poor contrast ratios and poor black levels. With TN lightboost you get great motion with poor viewing angles and poor color clarity. IMO, lightboost is better for competetive gaming, but worse for general usage. So pick your poison. Not sure why we're debating this for pages and pages! There is NOT ONE panel technology that is perfect. Not a single one. They all have drawbacks. Hell, even if you want to argue CRTs are great - I don't miss CRTs one fucking bit. A 50 pound 19 inch CRT that has more heat output than 3 space heaters? With dampening wires for trinitron? No thanks. I don't miss CRTs whatsoever. Even IF they had great motion smoothness.

TL'DR: no monitor technology is perfect. Period! Pick your poison. People can argue ALL DAY LONG about what they like better - but that doesn't change the fact that IPS has drawbacks. Tn has drawbacks. VA has drawbacks. EVERY PANEL TECH in existence has flaws. Which is kinda saddening, but that's the situation. Pick the technology that works for you, no need to argue about it. IMO!

Well said my friend, well said. It is very true, all have pluses and minuses, it's all about what you need to use them for. Need a gaming monitor? LB. Need a productivity monitor? IPS. Or get both as you said. The problem with this guy unknown is, he has a pre-existing health problem or such that's stopping him from fully enjoying this technology. This is a rare thing, a minority, because 9 times out of 10 people are amazed at the clarity and smoothness of LB. Myself, yourself xoleras, Mark Rejhon (who works in the field), and pretty much every site and user testimonial from bb etc.

P.S Damper wires were very visible on white .

 

[ShuttleLuv]

If LightBoost eliminated motion blur, how could it only exhibit 80% clearer motion? This is a complete misnomer: low-persistence does not eliminate motion blur.


Do color-calibrated displays demonstrate increased PWM frequency?


Theoretically, yes. In actual practice? That may depend on the display.

No wonderbread, color calibrated displays wouldn't increase that but they might make it more clear to his particular eyes, maybe lessing the strobophobic effect he's experiencing.

 

[ShuttleLuv]

Status: Mark Rejhon is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Namelessme View Post
If PWM/flicker is a concern, get a PWM-free LCD. Motion/blur will stink when compared to CRTs, but besides lightboost TNs, that can't be avoided. Best bet may be to get a PWM free LCD for general PC stuff, and keep the CRT as a dual monitor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharknice View Post
I doubt PWM would be a problem if you don't have a problem with CRTs.
PWM flickers in the thousands of hz and CRT refresh rates are in the 100s.
Actually, some people apparently get PWM eyestrain but not CRT eyestrain.
-- PWM flicker can be the source of eyestrain
-- However PWM artifacts can also be the problem too (this is actually the bigger issue for other people).

Pursuit camera photograph of PWM artifacts:

(From LCD Motion Artifacts 101)

If your monitor has "PWM dimming", you can see exactly the same thing as the above photo.
1. Go to www.testufo.com/ghosting
2. Adjust Brightness down to 0%
3. You can visually see the same artifact as in the above photo.

Some of us have eyestrain from motion artifacts/blur/PWM artifact, instead of eyestrain from the PWM flicker. Going either PWM-free or going LightBoost fixes it for me. Our eye focussing muscles gets lots of strain trying to focus on motion blur/artifacts when the display forces motion blur onto our eyes! Also for people like CallSignVega too (some of us don't get CRT eyestrain nor LightBoost eyestrain). LightBoost is a special kind of mption-blur-eliminating refresh-synchronized one-strobe-per-refresh PWM which produces less eyestrain to human eyes that are used to CRT monitors (but not PWM dimming). For that reason, LightBoost can increase eyestrain for some people (PWM flicker sensitive people), while LightBoost can decrease eyestrain for other people (PWM artifact sensitive people).

Fortunately, you got plenty of choice on the XL2420TE which is PWM-free in non-LightBoost.
-- Got PWM flicker eyestrain? OR
-- Got PWM artifact eyestrain? OR
-- Got motion blur eyestrain? (LightBoost is there to produce the CRT effect, if you didn't mind 120Hz CRT's).
The XL2420TE can easily fix any of the above (with and without LightBoost, your choice!)

So in essence, LB actually helps PWM artifact sensitive people (sounds like unknown), while it can slightly increase eyestrain for people with PWM flicker (myself, a few others).

 

[Unknown-One]

1. We have no proof you actually used lightboost (and when you factor in you already have three monitors, makes even more sense)

We have no proof you've used it either, what's your point?

I've used it and I hated it, so I got three monitors that don't kill my eyes. Simple as that.

2. Was it calibrated properly color wise?

Already mentioned that it's not possible to correctly calibrate any TN-based monitor. YOu can get them "closer to correct," but they cannot ever be 100% dialed-in.

TN suffers from angle-dependent gamma curve. The gamma of the display changes depending on where you sit. If you sit too close you can actually get into situations where the top and bottom of the screen have a vastly different gamma values, turning colors that SHOULD be solid into gradients.

Worthless for any professional applications, and it can look pretty weird in games too. If you've ever found yourself shifting your seating position to "see into the shadows" in a game, that's due to the gamma shifting on your panel, and is a sure sign of a cheap TN panel.

3. Was it set up properly? (As I said, earlier in it's life it was trickier to get going).

Yes, it was set up properly. I even went ahead and tried a few different levels of Lightboost.

The higher-brightness modes (where Lightboost is less effective) weren't as bad, but still not what I'd consider usable. Best was still 100% brightness (lightboost totally disabled)

Who's to say you couldn't get a VG248QE and just run it in standard 144hz mode with 100% brightness pwm free? But no, you keep nit picking the TN panel tech and Lightboost in general

TN vs. IPS hadn't been brought in until recently. If we're talking about gaming-only monitors TN vs. IPS is less relevant.

PWM flicker has nothing to do with TN panels, any display with a backlight can experience it. I'm picking on PWM flicker (which is required for Lightboost to work).

because you're a cynical, bitter guy when nobody is forcing you to even think about it. If it left such a bitter taste in your mouth, why keep dredging it up?

Once again, not cynical, just telling you what I see. How is that cynical?

You keep praising it like it's the best thing since sliced bread, I'm going to keep shooting that down because it doesn't look that way to me. Not everyone can make due with low-frequency flicker.

5. Why are you in a Gsync thread when you know the first edition of Gsync is TN panel and on top of that, the drop in kit is for the VG248QE, which you loath? I doubt you being an IPS guy, would bother with a TN panel for Gsync.

Not super-bothered about TN if the system is only going to be used for gaming.

And I'm in a G-Sync thread because G-sync actually sounds useful. Not only that, G-Sync and Lightboost can't (in this incarnation) be enabled at the same time, so why are you praising Lightboost in a G-Sync thread when you can't actually use Lightboost with G-Sync?

Maybe once they become available on IPS perhaps, but will the motion clarity suffer? Thats another question entirely.

As far as I'm concerned, Lightboost causes motion clarity to suffer. If they can get some G-Sync capable IPS panels out-the-door with a nice PWM-free backlight, I'm all for it.

6. You really need to check your eyes out at a doctor or perhaps as I said, play on a lightboost monitor daily for about two weeks to a month every day playing some Quake.

Been there, done that. I'm near-sighted but that's about the only thing "wrong" with my eyes.

Some people can hear higher frequencies than others. Some people can see higher frequencies than others. Not sure how you're still failing to grasp this concept...

And as I've said, I've used Lightboost, it displayed classic PWM flicker I see on most cheap monitors (in addition to some horrible stroboscopic artifacts). I deal with PWM flicker daily, no ammount of staring at it has decreased my sensitivity to it.

If you want to sent me a LightBoost monitor, I'll hook it up and give it another go, but I can guarantee you I'll still see it flickering at the end of two weeks (if it hasn't burned my eyes out of their sockets by then).

With IPS you get great colors and better viewing angles at the expense of poor contrast ratios and poor black levels.

At the expense of poor contrast and black levels? Never really seen that as an issue with IPS panels.

VA panels have deeper blacks, but they also suffer from classic VA "black crush" where anything remotely close to black gets crushed to black. This ruins shadow details. You can "fix" this on a VA panel by turning down the contrast on the monitor until blacks no-longer crush, but that ruins those deep blacks. Might as well have gone IPS

TN monitors have seriously goofy contrast thanks to the gamma curve changing as you move around the monitor, so can't really compare to those properly.

 

[ShuttleLuv]

We have no proof you've used it either, what's your point?

I've used it and I hated it, so I got three monitors that don't kill my eyes. Simple as that.


Already mentioned that it's not possible to correctly calibrate any TN-based monitor. YOu can get them "closer to correct," but they cannot ever be 100% dialed-in.

TN suffers from angle-dependent gamma curve. The gamma of the display changes depending on where you sit. If you sit too close you can actually get into situations where the top and bottom of the screen have a vastly different gamma values, turning colors that SHOULD be solid into gradients.

Worthless for any professional applications, and it can look pretty weird in games too. If you've ever found yourself shifting your seating position to "see into the shadows" in a game, that's due to the gamma shifting on your panel, and is a sure sign of a cheap TN panel.


Yes, it was set up properly. I even went ahead and tried a few different levels of Lightboost.

The higher-brightness modes (where Lightboost is less effective) weren't as bad, but still not what I'd consider usable. Best was still 100% brightness (lightboost totally disabled)


TN vs. IPS hadn't been brought in until recently. If we're talking about gaming-only monitors TN vs. IPS is less relevant.

PWM flicker has nothing to do with TN panels, any display with a backlight can experience it. I'm picking on PWM flicker (which is required for Lightboost to work).


Once again, not cynical, just telling you what I see. How is that cynical?

You keep praising it like it's the best thing since sliced bread, I'm going to keep shooting that down because it doesn't look that way to me. Not everyone can make due with low-frequency flicker.


Not super-bothered about TN if the system is only going to be used for gaming.

And I'm in a G-Sync thread because G-sync actually sounds useful. Not only that, G-Sync and Lightboost can't (in this incarnation) be enabled at the same time, so why are you praising Lightboost in a G-Sync thread when you can't actually use Lightboost with G-Sync?


As far as I'm concerned, Lightboost causes motion clarity to suffer. If they can get some G-Sync capable IPS panels out-the-door with a nice PWM-free backlight, I'm all for it.


Been there, done that. I'm near-sighted but that's about the only thing "wrong" with my eyes.

Some people can hear higher frequencies than others. Some people can see higher frequencies than others. Not sure how you're still failing to grasp this concept...

And as I've said, I've used Lightboost, it displayed classic PWM flicker I see on most cheap monitors (in addition to some horrible stroboscopic artifacts). I deal with PWM flicker daily, no ammount of staring at it has decreased my sensitivity to it.

If you want to sent me a LightBoost monitor, I'll hook it up and give it another go, but I can guarantee you I'll still see it flickering at the end of two weeks (if it hasn't burned my eyes out of their sockets by then).


At the expense of poor contrast and black levels? Never really seen that as an issue with IPS panels.

VA panels have deeper blacks, but they also suffer from classic VA "black crush" where anything remotely close to black gets crushed to black. This ruins shadow details. You can "fix" this on a VA panel by turning down the contrast on the monitor until blacks no-longer crush, but that ruins those deep blacks. Might as well have gone IPS

TN monitors have seriously goofy contrast thanks to the gamma curve changing as you move around the monitor, so can't really compare to those properly.

http://www.blurbusters.com/lightboost-sequel-ultra-low-motion-blur-ulmb/#comments

So you get an off on hardware button, and better out of the box colors on the second edition. Not to mention, Nvidia is supposedly working on getting the two to work in tandem. My God, even John Carmack is a huge fan of Lightboost. A guy who's been in the industry for 20+ years, has experience in aerospace, and has been working with tons of workstation monitors his whole career. Can't be that bad I suppose.

 

[ShuttleLuv]

If you want to sent me a LightBoost monitor, I'll hook it up and give it another go, but I can guarantee you I'll still see it flickering at the end of two weeks (if it hasn't burned my eyes out of their sockets by then).

I bet you'd love that.

 

[Unknown-One]

I bet you'd love that.

Why would I love a monitor that I can't use properly unless I disable the very feature you're trying to sell me on?

 

[Unknown-One]

http://www.blurbusters.com/lightboost-sequel-ultra-low-motion-blur-ulmb/#comments

So you get an off on hardware button, and better out of the box colors on the second edition

Still can't be enabled at the same time as G-Sync, thankfully.

Not to mention, Nvidia is supposedly working on getting the two to work in tandem.

Hope they leave the option to just use G-Sync by itself.

I will, of course, try the new ULMB mode... but I don't hold much hope for it. The comments on your link describe it as "dimmer" than the current Lightboost hack, which means the backlight is off even MORE often. That's the opposite of what would help with flicker.

Only improvements that are really mentioned is that the colors are better... the poor color quality is the least of my problems with Lightboost.

My God, even John Carmack is a huge fan of Lightboost. A guy who's been in the industry for 20+ years, has experience in aerospace, and has been working with tons of workstation monitors his whole career.

So he's happy with it... your point? I'm most certainly not.

Can't be that bad I suppose.

As far as I'm concerned Lightboost is the worst thing I've seen on displays since dynamic contrast and black frame insertion.

 

[xoleras]

Goddamn.

Why are you dudes arguing LIGHTBOOST endlessly? I don't even care who's right or wrong, someone needs to stop enabling responses.

 

[Blue_Scholar]

Goddamn.

Why are you dudes arguing LIGHTBOOST endlessly? I don't even care who's right or wrong, someone needs to stop enabling responses.

Hear, hear.

 

[caRpetbomBer]

Looks real cool. Cant wait to see G sync in person.

 

[jmk396]

I also came in here to read about G-Sync but this thread is beyond absurd. I've ordered one of the monitors and a DIY kit so I'm excited to try it out even if it's not the perfect "fix-everything" solution.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

I also came in here to read about G-Sync but this thread is beyond absurd. I've ordered one of the monitors and a DIY kit so I'm excited to try it out even if it's not the perfect "fix-everything" solution.

The Lightboost inanity has been a bit overboard, but I created the thread primarily to showcase examples of the technology for this forum. At least one of the offenders was banned for whatever reason too, as it seems Crosshairs has been a bit more active lately.

All in all, more units should be available to the general public in the near future and we should be getting a better idea how people feel about the benefits or lack thereof.

 

[Astrodave]

No surround support makes it useless to me.