Frustration with being stuck with MS because gaming on linux isn't an option

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CleanSlate

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[I guess I'm just angry, need to vent.]

Microsoft's rampant DRM forcing recently made me make a resolution to permanently switch to Linux (if possible) without looking back. A resolution brought about by mostly anger and frustration.

Until recently I had to rip entire DVDs to my hard drive in order to be able to play them without having to install the DRM software (I don't trust them at all). So, I eventually just hooked a dvd player up to my pc with my TV tuner to get around the whole situation. However, I find it rather annoying. I spent money on a DVD-rw for basically only the RW capabilities, I can't use all the features it has simply because Winblows says so. I suppose I could do some programing and get around the lame programs and force it to play. However, that would just go from lame to ludicrous.

It has been ten years since I first played with linux a bit and the gaming capabilities of the many Linux OS's have basically gained momentum extremely but to be honest it's still impossible to get rid of this Windows thing that is hanging over my head.

If Linux all of a sudden became nearly on par with windows in the gaming department... MS would find themselves in a world of trouble.

[/I guess I'm just angry, I need to vent.]

Adam
 
I'm puzzled.

Why on Earth haven't you simply installed AnyDVD or some other such CSS removal software, rather than going to all that trouble? Nothing in Windows forces people to go to the extent you have :confused:
 
Catweazle said:
I'm puzzled.

Why on Earth haven't you simply installed AnyDVD or some other such CSS removal software, rather than going to all that trouble? Nothing in Windows forces people to go to the extent you have :confused:
Click to expand...

Because then he wouldn't be able to have a complaint...
 
Yep, I got a 'vent' too!

Every now and then my Windows box refuses to read a DVD, especially if it has a little bit of scuffing on it. Windows has realised that my cruddy, generic DVD burner is a cruddy, generic DVD burner, and just won't play DVDs on disks like that!

I have to walk all the way up the hall, pop it in the DVD player, and watch it on 120cm widescreen with cinema quality sound JUST TO VIEW THE BLOODY THING!!!!@!
 
I've never had any trouble playing DVDs in Windows. You just have to be choosy about which decoder you get.

I myself find I will likely switch mostly to Linux and away from Windows in the near future, mainly because I'm finding I like Linux and it's direction, while I don't really like the direction of Window's development. Besides, with more and more Windows games going to consoles, the Windows based gaming PC is loosing it's purpose. All the money spent on a gaming PC could buy a whole lot of games for any of the major consoles or all three. Linux PCs are potentially a much smaller expense, so it all works out.
 
Thought a bit before I posted this... and I think I will...

Linux gaming is already here. It arrived on March 4 2000, and took off like a rocket after August 23rd 2001. On November 11th 2006, Linux gaming achieved yet another mile mark as it entered regular usage of OpenGL 2.0 ES. On 4/02/07, Kotaku ran a story about another mile marker in Linux gaming, which featured what appeared to be a disco ball weapon.

I am of course referring to the Playstation 2. Devil May Cry. Playstation 3. Ratchet and Clank PS3.

Whether or not game publishers would like to admit it, if they program at all for the Playstation2 or Playstation3, they are Linux game developers.

The catch is that Linux gaming is big on dedicated platforms where people expect to pay money. As evidenced in a report by Game Developers magazine, the highest paid people in the games industry are accountants... bean counters if you will.

For a bean counter it is easy to track the sale of a console. Retailers must report back how many units they sold, and record every unit purchased. So, for an accountant, authorizing Million dollar blockbuster Linux games on the Sony Playstation is an easy choice.

For x86 and x86-64 computers... the situation is a bit more... complex. The primary distribution of Linux on these platforms is by replacing installations of Microsoft windows. Everybody has a different opinion about how many people actually "use" Linux. With the advent of Bittorrent and other peer to peer technologies, tracking consistent downloads of Linux distributions is next to impossible. Nobody really knows how many people use Linux, so you'll get a variety of figures. In the Novell marketing videos, Novell states a number of 30 million users.

From a bean counters perspective then, there is no convenient way to count, or track, how many people "use" Linux as a desktop, not to mention how many people who use Linux would be willing to buy a $50 game.

My suggestion has typically been to contact developers directly. At E3 2005, I stopped asking if a Linux client would be coming, but asking for the hard date on the Linux client. When would I be able to lay down money and get my PC Linux version. That approach tends to through developers and publishers off guard, most not expecting any "demand" for a Linux client of their games.

Right now, I'd personally advise contacting NCSoft and asking for Linux Clients of Dungeon Runners, eXteel, and City of Heroes.

All it took for the Playstation2 was one killer game that everybody had to play...

all if could take for PC Linux is a killer game that everybody wants to play. In that respect, NCSoft is candidate for meeting that need.
 
PC gaming has already all but disappeared as a 'hook' to keep PC owners running Windows rather than Linux or some other OS. It's a niche activity that is increasingly restrictive in scope and breadth. Sure, there's lots of money involved, but in terms of overall PC activity it's still a pittance.

There's another thread like this'n floating around somewhere on the same index page too. The question asked in that one is "What is it that keeps Windows winning?" But doesn't matter if you're seeking the answer to the puzzle or think you know the answer to the puzzle already, the fact is that the puzzle itself doesn't really exist.

Nothing keeps 'Windows winning' other than sheer weight of numbers. Windows doesn't 'win' because any 'contest' that ever might've existing was dead, buried and well behind us back about the Windows 95 era!

Windows won! A long time ago. And if you think that the experiences you hear from people you're in contact with are some sort of indication that a 'contest' exists it'll be only because the people you are in contact with aren't really a representative sample of the overall desktop PC user base.
 
Catweazle said:
I'm puzzled.

Why on Earth haven't you simply installed AnyDVD or some other such CSS removal software, rather than going to all that trouble? Nothing in Windows forces people to go to the extent you have :confused:
Click to expand...

Never heard of anything like this, what specifically do they do? And I dont want a "remover" I just dont want them to be installed in the first place.
 
general said:
CleanSlate,

Get a mac.
Click to expand...

I'd love to, if Apple didn't go against everything I stand against (proprietary hardware). Basically, I see Apple as everything that is wrong with computer companies (Dell, HP, etc included).

Then again Apple does have a very good setup on their Macs with the Unix based system they have now. But their prices are strikingly high for higher end systems (*ding* gaming systems) and I know I couldn't afford them.

So yea, good suggestion at its core but impractical to me.

Adam
 
AnyDVD is basically what I used to rip the dvds... It backs it up to your hard drive then you burn it to a new dvd... I still couldnt bring just any old dvd in and play it on my computer at a moment's notice. That's the point!

~Adam
 
i believe it was attempted by Epic at one time, UT99 had a dedicated Linux client,

i don't think you could have asked for a "bigger" game to be brought to the linux platform, (i even remember trying to get the Nvidia linux drivers working to try it out)..

suffice it to say..
nothing really changed because of it..

the reason?

simply because it was only a single game, unless you can get all of the game makers (or a good portion of them) to create linux clients, there will never be a "switch" over, there will never even be a competition between..

i would love that as a much as the next person, but I realize it just will not happen, there is too much invested both by the hardware (NV/Creative/ATI) and the Game Makers into Windows..

it'll be hard to convince the software makers to put in the extra time to linux and , i believe more importantly, convince the hardware makers to work on the linux drivers (sure working drivers are out, but no where near the optimizations they put into the windows side of things)..
 
They remove the CSS copy protection from DVDs, and make those DVDs appear as unprotected content to the OS and software. That's all.

That's all you need to do, really. The things are mostly used for enabling the copying of protected DVDs, but if you want to play the things via something other than player software which includes the content unscrambling mechanism......

There's no need to "not install" anything whatsoever. Not even in Vista, despite the doom and gloom merchant crud. Simply use a protection mechanism removal to make the disk appear as an unprotected one, and then use any player/copier you like to do the job you want to do. Nothing in Windows whatsoever gets in the way of that.

Edit:

sorry mate, but I've been an AnyDVD/CloneDVD user for ages. AnyDVD is simply a 'protection layer stripper'. It intercepts the disk read, strips off the protection, and makes the DVD appear as an unprotected one.

Dunno what's been stopping you from playing stuff. Something amiss on your system, by the sound of things.
 
Well, maybe I misunderstood the front page of Anydvd.

If I were to pop in a DVD after installing Anydvd would I be able to immediately open the dvd and hit play in say winamp and it would play?

If so, that's not what it sounded like to me.

Edit: I can play dvds just fine, I just dont want to install the lame softwares that come with most dvdsfor copy rights protection.
 
1. Yes, you should be able to play the thing in whatever you want.

2. You should also be able to play any DVD whatsoever in Windows, WITHOUT installing any software you might be prompted to install and WITHOUT using AnyDVD! Some DVDs do that. Prompt you to install their crud. But if you cancel out and skip the installation they should still play anyways!
 
MS would find themselves in a world of trouble.
Click to expand...

LMAO.... says the guy buying DRMed Dvds and running Microsoft Windows XP.. strange how you'll go thru all that trouble to get functionality on Windows.... yet dont seem to think installing cedega is worthwhile to play games on Linux?
 
CleanSlate, what in the hell are you talking about? On Windows XP you have to install a DVD decoder (you have to do the same thing in Linux as well) like nVidia's PureVideo but that's about it. In Vista its built in.

Yeah, PC gaming is dead. Right. It's really going to die when Crysis hits the streets.

Linux is cool. But why do some in the Linux community continually create all this FUD about all the evil DRM software in Windows when by and large it dosen't exist. Yeah, there's Windows Activation, but that's been cracked plenty of times if its so offensive.

If you don't want to use Windows anymore, more power to you! Please don't make up stuff though to scare other people.
 
heatlesssun said:
Linux is cool. But why do some in the Linux community continually create all this FUD about all the evil DRM software in Windows when by and large it dosen't exist. Yeah, there's Windows Activation, but that's been cracked plenty of times if its so offensive.

.
Click to expand...

Some of us do have legit reasons for hating DRM... If I buy the damn song/movie I should be able to play it on any device I own. I have an mp3 player that only plays basic mp3s.... I have a zune that needs me to crack, rip, do a rain dance, and convert in order to play my dvds.. i get sick of it after a while
 
osalcido said:
Some of us do have legit reasons for hating DRM... If I buy the damn song/movie I should be able to play it on any device I own. I have an mp3 player that only plays basic mp3s.... I have a zune that needs me to crack, rip, do a rain dance, and convert in order to play my dvds.. i get sick of it after a while
Click to expand...

I can understand that sure. But this thread was started by someone claiming that you had to install some DRM software in Windows in order to play DVD's when all you need is a decoder, just like Linux.

Plus, Microsoft isn't the one mandating most of this DRM stuff, that's coming from Hollywood by in large.

Also, Windows has some great DRM removal tools. In fact I can easily make copies of DVD's in Windows and put it on my smart phone, iPod or Zune.
 
heatlesssun said:
Linux is cool. But why do some in the Linux community continually create all this FUD about all the evil DRM software in Windows when by and large it dosen't exist. Yeah, there's Windows Activation, but that's been cracked plenty of times if its so offensive.
Click to expand...
I don't know much about DRM since I have no media that really does anything with it. I do know that nothing I have done in Vista or XP has ever been stopped for any kind of DRM reason. Heck, I would only complain about DRM because it's there and I have no idea why. It's more code and more code that can potentially break or be exploited or whatever.

Windows Activation is practically transparent to a legit end-user. Does it have false positives? Sure. But the vast majority of legal Windows users don't have any problem with it. I use legit Windows on both of my PCs and it does not hinder or encumber my experience in any way.

PS: it's not like no version of Linux needs *activation*.
 
heatlesssun said:
I can understand that sure. But this thread was started by someone claiming that you had to install some DRM software in Windows in order to play DVD's when all you need is a decoder, just like Linux.

Plus, Microsoft isn't the one mandating most of this DRM stuff, that's coming from Hollywood by in large.

Also, Windows has some great DRM removal tools. In fact I can easily make copies of DVD's in Windows and put it on my smart phone, iPod or Zune.
Click to expand...

zunes work on linux? Dont u need the zune software?
 
Could someone please explain to me what the hell is going on in this thread? What does DRM have to do with watching a DVD on your Windows box? You need a simple decoder...many of which come with DVD drives. If you really don't feel you want to spend the money on one, get VLC. Or, find your drivers CD for your vidia card, and load NvDVD.

Is the level of foolishness going so far down that we now need a thread to rant about Microsoft AND DRM.....when in reality it's just the OP's fault for not doing an ounce of research into the problem? Good god, this is frightening that people exist in this community who are more likely to start a thread such as this, rather than learn a very simple concept. Where exactly does DRM enter into this fray?

PSA: How's about we try this out. For EVERYONE'S benefit, let's all just start using that mushy slimy thing in our heads. It isn't possible for these discussion to remain civil, if irrationality is this prevelant.
 
djnes said:
Could someone please explain to me what the hell is going on in this thread? What does DRM have to do with watching a DVD on your Windows box? You need a simple decoder...many of which come with DVD drives. If you really don't feel you want to spend the money on one, get VLC. Or, find your drivers CD for your vidia card, and load NvDVD.

Is the level of foolishness going so far down that we now need a thread to rant about Microsoft AND DRM.....when in reality it's just the OP's fault for not doing an ounce of research into the problem? Good god, this is frightening that people exist in this community who are more likely to start a thread such as this, rather than learn a very simple concept. Where exactly does DRM enter into this fray?

PSA: How's about we try this out. For EVERYONE'S benefit, let's all just start using that mushy slimy thing in our heads. It isn't possible for these discussion to remain civil, if irrationality is this prevelant.
Click to expand...

I couldn’t agree more with you as I have already pointed out this. When people start ragging Windows over things like DRM and start extolling the greatness of Linux, I automatically become wary. Stuff like DVD decoders (which ANY OS needs to plays DVDs) becomes DRM software not to be trusted! When I see stuff that is this idiotic I really want to scream because somebody out there probably thinks that there is merit to these ridiculous statements.
 
You're right. It's amazing how many people still don't understand that DRM isn't a Windows issue.
 
I'm only just now realising that CleanSlate is trying to play DVDs without a DVD player installed. :confused:
 
djnes said:
Right. But, as usual, it's all Micro$haft and Uncle Billies fault. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

pffft! ...well , duh. Everything is uncle Bill's fault .. world hunger , homelessness , the war in Iraq .. bad gas and grandma Gertrudes hairy mole on her face ...

I have never had a problem playing or backing up my dvd's in XP or Vista ... I have only messed around with playing and backing up dvd's a smidge in linux and as far as backing up dvd's , I haven't gotten that down yet in linux (but haven't invested much time into it either)

PowerDVD or the like usually comes with your dvd player ..load it up if your in XP ..in Vista you can just use media center

You are prolly sacrificing some image and quality running thru your video in on your video card ...as well as sound. Not to mention the sheer hassle of setting up that way to begin with.
 
To be completely honest, I don't see the difference between having CSS installed on your computer, and having a program that uses CSS to remove CSS installed on your computer. Both have the same end result (a watchable DVD), one just takes a ton more work.
 
Since nobody has even explained it yet, I will explain why you need DRM libraries:

The data on your DVD / Blue-ray disk, HDDVD disk is ENCRYPTED. You cannot just 'view' it - it would be like using notepad.exe to read a .zip file - you will see garbage.

Why is it encrypted? Talk to the MPAA.

How do you decrypt it? Why not just write a program to 'unzip' like you do with a .zip file?

Well, it's more complicated than that. DVD's are encryped with a weak 40-bit cipher known as Content Scrambling System. HDDVDs, Blu-ray use stronger methods.

Now, before I go on, do you realize why this isn't an Operating System issue yet? Without decrypting the data (either by cracking it or following the DRM schema, you will NOT be watching that DVD!! And Microsoft is not in the business of cracking DRM schemes and breaking the law (DMCA))

So, to actually play that movie, you need a few 'keys.' But you aren't allowed to directly handle those keys or see them per the DRM schema! They have tight control over how the key is used to decode the encrypted data on your media. All DVD, Blu-ray, HDDVD DRM circumvention revolves around obtaining the key to decode the data that was encrypted the moment you purchased that disk.

Feel free to ask questions...



To be completely honest, I don't see the difference between having CSS installed on your computer, and having a program that uses CSS to remove CSS installed on your computer. Both have the same end result (a watchable DVD), one just takes a ton more work.
Click to expand...

CSS is never 'on your computer.' CSS was used to encrypt the data on your DVD. A program cannot "remove CSS." All it can do is get the decryption key, decode the data and write it to a new file. (which is now DRM free since it is no longer encrypted).
 
Read this thread from the beginning.

Start at the top.

Now tell me you don't see what I'm talking about when I say there is a core group of people here who cannot, for whatever reason, just let the man bitch without trying to prove him wrong and defend MS. And whats sad is its a whole bunch of people going "Yeah, I totally agree. :rolleyes: " A big fucking circle jerk of MS lovers who have nothing better to do but go around looking for differing opinions so they can dissect and debunk them in any way possible.

And then you guys have the nerve to bitch about how bad the OS forum is.
 
Oh hey thanks for all the berating, much appreciated.

Alright so it's not a windows issue, happy? Linux wouldn't solve my DRM issue but like I said it was a rant. It was an emotional response to an annoying situation.

Welcome to humanity. We humans do that some times. And *gasp* we don't always do research and watch exactly what we say when we emotionally respond to things.

GG, guys.

Also, thank you for that well put description of how DVD encryption works. I learned a few things from it. Although, I'm sure these fools will still assume I'm ignorant after this response. It's cool, assume all you want guys ^.^

~Adam
 
nigerian_businessman said:
And then you guys have the nerve to bitch about how bad the OS forum is.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what your assumptions where when you joined here, but this is a very highly respected place for people to come and learn. This isn't an AOL user forum...this is meant for the advanced power users. What good would it do anyone if false information was left to stand alone? Would you appreciate going to a library and having the info you get be wrong? I didn't think so.

All you ever try to do is turn the tables by twisting this around, instead of taking these events EXACTLY as they are. No where has ANYONE ever said people can't complain. However, when a rant is going so far off the FUD-o-meter because of its incorrect assumptions and false accusations, what good will that do to someone reading it, trying to learn?

Would that be okay if I created a blog, and wrote how sick and goddamn tired I am of dealing with the Earth in it's square form? Instead of always trying to get in the middle of the action, to point fingers at theis "core group" as you call it...why not try to do something productive for all? Correct the incorrect info, participate in the discussions, and stop trying to flame the people who DO CARE about the validity of the info being posted here. Back in the day when I was a noob, I learned so much from this place. It's a damn shame how things have changed....and many of us would LOVE to see it go back to the way of learning and great discussions. I agree there are some who ruin this subforum, but don't make the mistake of pointing at those who are attempting to clean it up.
 
nigerian_businessman,

I do see your point, but you should go about telling it differently. Yes, there people who would go straight up MS's backside if they suddenly came to a hault (see the guy above me), but there are those who don't think that way. I can understand your frurstration and yes I do realize that some people here would reinstall DOS as their primary OS if MS put marketing behind it as their next release. It's nice to see you defend the OP, but you could do it in a more constructive manner. If someone has said something you disagree with, address it directly and please save the swearing. It makes you look like a fool and really destroys the validity of what you're saying.

I did wholly disagree with the attacks that came about in the 3rd or 4th post, but address them directly and you'll be better off.
 
djnes said:
All you ever try to do is turn the tables by twisting this around, instead of taking these events EXACTLY as they are. No where has ANYONE ever said people can't complain. However, when a rant is going so far off the FUD-o-meter because of its incorrect assumptions and false accusations, what good will that do to someone reading it, trying to learn?
Click to expand...

Can you read?

CleanSlate said:
I guess I'm just angry, need to vent.
Click to expand...

Would that be okay if I created a blog, and wrote how sick and goddamn tired I am of dealing with the Earth in it's square form? Instead of always trying to get in the middle of the action, to point fingers at theis "core group" as you call it...why not try to do something productive for all? Correct the incorrect info, participate in the discussions, and stop trying to flame the people who DO CARE about the validity of the info being posted here. Back in the day when I was a noob, I learned so much from this place. It's a damn shame how things have changed....and many of us would LOVE to see it go back to the way of learning and great discussions. I agree there are some who ruin this subforum, but don't make the mistake of pointing at those who are attempting to clean it up.
Click to expand...

It's not the correcting of the incorrect info I've got a problem with. It's the attitude that comes along with it. It's needlessly inflammatory. It's laced with implications of stupidity, accusations of being a troll or a 'FUD spreader' and all sorts of other nonsense that adds nothing but fuel to an already raging fire. And its getting really old.
 
heatlesssun said:
CleanSlate, what in the hell are you talking about? On Windows XP you have to install a DVD decoder (you have to do the same thing in Linux as well) like nVidia's PureVideo but that's about it. In Vista its built in.

Yeah, PC gaming is dead. Right. It's really going to die when Crysis hits the streets.

Linux is cool. But why do some in the Linux community continually create all this FUD about all the evil DRM software in Windows when by and large it dosen't exist. Yeah, there's Windows Activation, but that's been cracked plenty of times if its so offensive.

If you don't want to use Windows anymore, more power to you! Please don't make up stuff though to scare other people.
Click to expand...

This post is a perfect example of the NOISE and piss-poor attitude that has turned the OS forum into a gladiators arena.

And before anyone points the finger at me, yes, I know I've taken part in it too. But I'm trying to push things in a more positive direction. I don't know of any other way to do that but point out the examples and hope that people will change their behavior as they become more aware of it. If anyone has any constructive suggestions, I'm all ears.
 
general said:
nigerian_businessman,

I do see your point, but you should go about telling it differently. Yes, there people who would go straight up MS's backside if they suddenly came to a hault (see the guy above me), but there are those who don't think that way. I can understand your frurstration and yes I do realize that some people here would reinstall DOS as their primary OS if MS put marketing behind it as their next release. It's nice to see you defend the OP, but you could do it in a more constructive manner. If someone has said something you disagree with, address it directly and please save the swearing. It makes you look like a fool and really destroys the validity of what you're saying.

I did wholly disagree with the attacks that came about in the 3rd or 4th post, but address them directly and you'll be better off.
Click to expand...

I'm really trying, but as you said, you understand my frustration. It seems like every day I come in here, the same people are doing the same thing to anyone who doesn't have something positive to say about an MS product. There are those who are genuinely helpful without malice, and those who I can tell are making a real positive effort to be that way (Catweazle) even if they do fall down from time to time (and we're all human, so I'm not trying to single you out, friend. I do it too). And if you've noticed, I've been trying to back off of those individuals, because I can respect that. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, by itself.

But then there are just people who have nothing useful to add to the conversation except malice. Thats the kind of thing that needs to stop. and what gets me so fired up. How are people who are incorrect about anything going to listen to reason when they're basically in a roundabout way being called stupid? And it really fires me up when people who aren't necessarily incorrect get ganged up on and discredited before they even state their case just because they don't come fully prepared with an encyclopedia's worth of references and a 20 page thesis explaining their problem in excruciating detail. What do these posts add to the OS forum? Nothing worthwhile! If I were a noob of sorts and I came in here with a problem with Vista, I would be half afraid to ask a question because if you don't word it just right or you happen to let the slightest bit of frustration come through in your post, you get attacked, discredited, and ridiculed. And that makes me want to swear and get angry, because I -care- about this community and I want it to thrive. I remember how it feels to be frustrated with Linux and have people I knew COULD help me opt to throw my lack of knowledge in my face. And for all these people know, they might not be that smart about an operating system but could know how to volt mod a motherboard or a video card like nobodys business, but do you think they're going to come back and contribute that helpful information after being attacked?

It's just getting to the point where I wouldn't blame the mods if they got fed up and banned everyone involved, including me. And I don't want to see that happen.
 
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