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Flac - Worth it

P

peacetilence

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
Messages
2,343
I've started buying music again just so I can compress them to flac. There is nothing quite like listening to Flacs using kernal streaming (no resampling) over a nice reciever and speakers. MP3's just sound so flat now.
 
My father would say yes.

But me, I like the compression that vorbis offers over flac. And I cant hear the difference between a high bitrate vorbis, and flac. The vorbis files are more then half the size.
 
If I could afford the hard drive space, all my music would be in .flac. Unfortunately, I can't.
 
MP3's, if done right, sound just about the same, but the main reason I chose MP3's over FLAC is the better portability of the file type.
 
Speaking of portability, any lossless codec will provide identical results; so I think lossless aac or wma lossless should also be consideration given that there is a higher supported player base.
 
I have all 200 of my CD's stored on my server in Windows Media Lossless.

When I need a set of MP3's for a device, I just start an overnight conversion and they are ready in the morning.

This way I can generate whatever I need from lossless, perfect samples without having to ever touch the CD's again.

Just like ripping from scratch.

-Larry
 
agent420 said:
Speaking of portability, any lossless codec will provide identical results; so I think lossless aac or wma lossless should also be consideration given that there is a higher supported player base.
Click to expand...
Do most mobile players that support WMA support WMA Lossless? I was under the impression that they were really separate codecs. Anyway, Larry's got it right; that's exactly what I do and it works perfectly :)
 
I use FLAC for some stuff, Vorbis Q6 for others. FLAC is definitely great, but Vorbis Q6 is nearly indistinguisable from the original, and no, I do NOT have a $10 pair of computer speakers.
 
TechLarry said:
I have all 200 of my CD's stored on my server in Windows Media Lossless.

When I need a set of MP3's for a device, I just start an overnight conversion and they are ready in the morning.

This way I can generate whatever I need from lossless, perfect samples without having to ever touch the CD's again.

Just like ripping from scratch.

-Larry
Click to expand...
MediaMonkey on-the-fly conversion with advanced plug-in FTW.
 
I actually just finished ripping all my original cds. 107CDs ended up at 30GB or so in FLAC. I did FLAC because it's a great way to 1) have high quality audio on my pc, and 2) back up my cds. My car has the typical slot load cd player so it eats up cds quickly. Flac->Blank CD == endless enjoyment of the audio i bought.
 
I backed up all of my CD's into FLAC, takes up about 35 gigs. One thing that is great about FLAC is it is essentially future proof (as are all lossless codecs). Should MP5 (for example) become the wave of the future, FLAC can easily be turned into it...



EDIT: Listening to FLAC files on my home theater setup, I can hear the difference between it and vorbis and MP3.
 
I like FLAC. All the audio I acquire or rip now, I rip into FLAC. At this point my HD space-to-collection ratio is such that I can afford to keep both FLAC and MP3 copies of the same tracks stored simultaneously, so that's what I'm doing.
 
For those keeping double copies of your music in FLAC and mp3 format for use with a portable device. You should check out 3rd party software like MediaMonkey or jriver Media Center. I use to have a script to create a copy of all my flac in mp3 format that I wrote in perl worked great but it was always a hassle.

I now use jrivers Media Center, and their are others out their to sync my flac collection with my iPod, it does on-the-fly conversion using Lame mp3 encoder. Works really well, a bit slower to sync mind you, however once you sync the file once it only syncs it again if the file changes (you change the tags info or something). So the first sync took some time but after that no big deal.
 
dandragonrage said:
I use FLAC for some stuff, Vorbis Q6 for others. FLAC is definitely great, but Vorbis Q6 is nearly indistinguisable from the original, and no, I do NOT have a $10 pair of computer speakers.
Click to expand...

agreed.
 
Oh and I just wanted to point out the BIGGEST reason to go with a lossless format.

You never have to rip those CDs AGAIN. If a better format comes out, or you need your music in format XYZ for the latest toy, no problem transcode it with NO generation loss.
 
Well lossless is worth it, but some people are full of B.S. when it comes to quality.

When I first got into "audiophile" headphones and such I thought Lossless was a waste of time and was going to rip everything 320 CBR.

Well I have found a few songs where I can tell the difference, but the main reason for me is the same as mentioned above. You have a perfect copy of your music the first time. Never need the CD again.

On my first "real" headphones, the Sennheiser 457s I couldn't hear any mp3 distortion on most of my >=192 kbps mp3s. On my Sennheiser 595s however I could. Also mp3s just sound flat. Now I rip everything in .APE format(high compression mode).

That said, nobody can tell with 100% accuracy the difference between 320 kbps mp3s and lossless. Not even close in any kind of ABX testing.

The Sony MDR-SA5000s I have are reguarded as some of the most detailed headphones in the world, however I can't always guess right even when I am intently listening.

I would highly doubt anyone that claimed to be able to nail a 320 CBR mp3 vs. a lossless file everytime.
 
Svperstar said:
Well lossless is worth it, but some people are full of B.S. when it comes to quality.

When I first got into "audiophile" headphones and such I thought Lossless was a waste of time and was going to rip everything 320 CBR.

Well I have found a few songs where I can tell the difference, but the main reason for me is the same as mentioned above. You have a perfect copy of your music the first time. Never need the CD again.

On my first "real" headphones, the Sennheiser 457s I couldn't hear any mp3 distortion on most of my >=192 kbps mp3s. On my Sennheiser 595s however I could. Also mp3s just sound flat. Now I rip everything in .APE format(high compression mode).

That said, nobody can tell with 100% accuracy the difference between 320 kbps mp3s and lossless. Not even close in any kind of ABX testing.

The Sony MDR-SA5000s I have are reguarded as some of the most detailed headphones in the world, however I can't always guess right even when I am intently listening.

I would highly doubt anyone that claimed to be able to nail a 320 CBR mp3 vs. a lossless file everytime.
Click to expand...

What are you running the SA5K out of?
 
Crap.. my bad.. I had sigs turned off!

Sec!

I see it now! :p

X-Fi Pro might not be the most revealing source to differentiate between MP3 and FLAC..
 
akwok said:
X-Fi Pro might not be the most revealing source to differentiate between MP3 and FLAC..
Click to expand...

I figured you would say that :)

It has 4 good quality DACs the same ones headroom uses for a few DACs and such, and with the SA5000s I can hear things like hiss in songs which I thought were well recorded.

I never said I couldn't hear the difference between MP3 and FLAC. On many tracks it is clear as day.

I said that nobody can tell the difference between 320 CBR MP3 and lossless 100% of the time. This has been argued to death. Even people with $10,000+ speaker systems will admit that they can't always tell the difference between 320 mp3 and lossless every time.

Try and do an ABX test yourself. Here is a description:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295

Here is the WinABX program, I really like this program as you can switch between A, B , and X while the file is still playing:
http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/winabx/winabx.zip

Foobar also has ABX built into it I think.

What you would do for that test is make wave files from both the 320 MP3 and the Lossless file and do a lot of trials to see if you are guessing.

Now if you don't want to bother with something complicated, here is a cheesy way.

Make a playlist in Winamp(or whatever), make sure you have a shuffle hotkey. The playlist should have 2 things in it. The lossless file, and a 320k mp3 made in LAME from the lossless file. Don't listen to the mp3 before you do the test.

So they put the playlist on random. Minimize it and hit your shuffle hotkey a bunch of times to make sure it is picking a random selection. Let it play for a few seconds, and try guess what you are listening too.

That is very cheesy compared to a true ABX test but it is a very fast way to do it.

You might suprise yourself fooling around with ABX stuff, I know I did. It can be hard on your audio-ego :p

EDIT: Talking about ABXing made me curious, so I decided to test it since I haven't done any ABX since I got my Elite Pro. I picked the track Pearl Jam - Once. I started at around the 55 second mark since the beginning is quiet.

I tested Lossless vs. 320 MP3 and also Lossless vs.128 MP3. I did 10 trials for each.

The results were that I guessed the 128 vs. lossless 8 / 10 correct with 5.5% chance I was randomly guessing.

For the 320 vs lossless I got a 5 / 10 with a 62.5% chance I was guessing, doh!
 
Svperstar said:
I figured you would say that :)

It has 4 good quality DACs the same ones headroom uses for a few DACs and such, and with the SA5000s I can hear things like hiss in songs which I thought were well recorded.

I never said I couldn't hear the difference between MP3 and FLAC. On many tracks it is clear as day.

I said that nobody can tell the difference between 320 CBR MP3 and lossless 100% of the time. This has been argued to death. Even people with $10,000+ speaker systems will admit that they can't always tell the difference between 320 mp3 and lossless every time.

Try and do an ABX test yourself. Here is a description:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295

Here is the WinABX program, I really like this program as you can switch between A, B , and X while the file is still playing:
http://www.kikeg.arrakis.es/winabx/winabx.zip

Foobar also has ABX built into it I think.

What you would do for that test is make wave files from both the 320 MP3 and the Lossless file and do a lot of trials to see if you are guessing.

Now if you don't want to bother with something complicated, here is a cheesy way.

Make a playlist in Winamp(or whatever), make sure you have a shuffle hotkey. The playlist should have 2 things in it. The lossless file, and a 320k mp3 made in LAME from the lossless file. Don't listen to the mp3 before you do the test.

So they put the playlist on random. Minimize it and hit your shuffle hotkey a bunch of times to make sure it is picking a random selection. Let it play for a few seconds, and try guess what you are listening too.

That is very cheesy compared to a true ABX test but it is a very fast way to do it.

You might suprise yourself fooling around with ABX stuff, I know I did. It can be hard on your audio-ego :p

EDIT: Talking about ABXing made me curious, so I decided to test it since I haven't done any ABX since I got my Elite Pro. I picked the track Pearl Jam - Once. I started at around the 55 second mark since the beginning is quiet.

I tested Lossless vs. 320 MP3 and also Lossless vs.128 MP3. I did 10 trials for each.

The results were that I guessed the 128 vs. lossless 8 / 10 correct with 5.5% chance I was randomly guessing.

For the 320 vs lossless I got a 5 / 10 with a 62.5% chance I was guessing, doh!
Click to expand...

A good DAC a DAC chip does not make alone.
 
akwok said:
A good DAC a DAC chip does not make alone.
Click to expand...

True, but I am curious, are you claiming you can always tell with 100% accuracy the difference between 320k mp3 and Lossless?

Also have you listened to the X-Fi Elite Pro?
 
Svperstar said:
True, but I am curious, are you claiming you can always tell with 100% accuracy the difference between 320k mp3 and Lossless?

Also have you listened to the X-Fi Elite Pro?
Click to expand...



It really depends on the type of music. On rock/alternative music, its a bit harder. But I find it very easy to tell with classical. Of course, using the right headphones/sound system.
 
I would love to see akwok try and distinguish 320 vs lossless on his best system. I would be intrigued to read the results.

As for me, I wouldnt bet my life that I can hear the difference betwen the two 100% of the time on my current system.... I need to upgrade my upstream electronics still and even then, I wouldnt try to distinguish the 2 if there was a gun held to my head.

And yes, my setup costs more than akwok overall... it's about $14000. ;)

Just teasing, Adrian. All you need is the Orpheus added to your collection and your overall collection value will surpass my overall audio investment. :p

Joey
 
haha they did this kind of evaluation on Maximum PC a while back. Basically most of the ppl using their own familiar favorite tracks got most or all of them right. However, when presented with unfamiliar tracks they got most of them wrong. Doesnt say what gear they used to evaluate tho... i hope it wasnt an ipod headphone out with stock ibuds :rolleyes:

So is flac worth it? to me it is, i may not be able to distiguish 320 vs lossless everytime but i bet once i get more paychecks and my gear gets better ill be able too. I think its a progression where everything in your chain has to upgraded or the weakest link bottlenecks you and sticks out like a sore thumb.

ipod headphone out/no amp/ ibuds 160kb
x-fi/hd595/amp 320kb or lossess with classical tracks
15k orpheus? how about the original cd, 4k meridian cd player, 1k DAC
 
Pinipig523 said:
I would love to see akwok try and distinguish 320 vs lossless on his best system. I would be intrigued to read the results.

As for me, I wouldnt bet my life that I can hear the difference betwen the two 100% of the time on my current system.... I need to upgrade my upstream electronics still and even then, I wouldnt try to distinguish the 2 if there was a gun held to my head.

And yes, my setup costs more than akwok overall... it's about $14000. ;)

Just teasing, Adrian. All you need is the Orpheus added to your collection and your overall collection value will surpass my overall audio investment. :p

Joey
Click to expand...

You're running the Summits off of the X-Fi?!
 
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