First DLSR + goodies

[eggrock]

It's time for me to make the move to DSLR. I have a Panasonic FZ3 and it's been good to me but I really need a manual focus, good controls and the capability to add lenses over time. My budget will be firm at $700--I'm not positive of the exact amount but that should be close.

To start with and learn, I'm looking for something that can handle a diverse range of shots. Mostly I take pics of my pets, generally indoors and in poor lighting. Eventually I'll want to focus on macro shots (insects and plants) and nature shots. Very little low-light sports/action shots--but if possible I'd love to be able to shoot nighttime clouds and the northern lights. I doubt an entry level camera/lens can handle that.

I'll be looking to add zoom, macro and wide angle lenses in the future. I won't need professional quality lenses.

From a feature standpoint the Canon XSi looks great, possibly excepting that it uses lens stabilization instead of body stabilization. The primary consideration is whether or not it will force me to buy more expensive lenses. I'd like to stay as inexpensive as possible for now. I can probably live without IS with some of these lenses (the zoom lens would probably need it.)

The Nikons don't look like an great option due to the need to get more expensive lenses (no AF screws on models < D90? The D90 is too expensive for me.)

Other than that I'm not sure what accessories I'll need (or can afford). If I can get a kit that comes with two lenses that would be a big bonus. I have a tripod. I'll need at least one 8Gb SD card to start with. An extra battery or the battery grip might be nice. The rocket air blower mentioned in a couple other threads will be necessary if I have more than one lens. Anything else?

 

[PinataUT]

Need new?

If not you can score decent stuff at keh.com or from the FOR SALE forums on nikonians.org

 

[the_b_man]

The Rebels are great cameras, the picture quality is just as good as any of Canon's more expensive dSLR's. I however have a 30D and would hesitate to get another Rebel because they're smaller and not as easy to grip, especially with larger lenses. So if you plan on using heavier lenses, or will be using it a LOT (or have large hands) it's something to think about.

A wired shutter control combined with the mirror-lockup feature is worth looking into if night time skies are going to be a common subject. (You can build your own remote for a few dollars) Yes an entry level SLR can handle it, but you'll have to limit the length of your exposures (30 seconds or so will turn out fine) and use a noise-reduction technique (black frame subtraction in Photoshop, or the in-camera system). The kit lens will work fine.

Yes, Canon forces you to buy more expensive lenses to get IS, but it's not just a cheap business tactic- it's a far better system than the in-body employed by other manufacturers. Canon IS is amazing. There's no way a sensor jiggling around could do what the glass inside the lens can. Most of their kit lenses come with IS these days anyway.

An 8GB card is plenty, I use a 2GB and it rarely fills up, mind you today's cameras have larger files that come with the megapixels. Still, a 4 or 8 GB should be sufficient.

 

[eggrock]

Need new?

If not you can score decent stuff at keh.com or from the FOR SALE forums on nikonians.org

I like new but I'm not married to the idea. As long as I get what I pay for and don't have to go out and buy a $50-100 battery to replace a dead one, or get something that is damaged or really worn, it's cool. I looked a little at keh and adorama (thanks for the nikonians link).

I however have a 30D and would hesitate to get another Rebel because they're smaller and not as easy to grip, especially with larger lenses. So if you plan on using heavier lenses, or will be using it a LOT (or have large hands) it's something to think about.

I forgot to mention that. Grip very likely won't be a problem. I'm so shaky that I'm either resting the camera on something or using two hands or a tripod.

 

[darktiger]

I would say get a used 30D/40D. Find a photoforum/group/craigslist in your area so you can check out the merchandise.

 

[eggrock]

I would say get a used 30D/40D. Find a photoforum/group/craigslist in your area so you can check out the merchandise.

What is the major benefit of a 30D/40D versus the XSi? They look relatively similar (using the DPReview side-by-side comparison.) Better lenses or sensor? Better ISO noise reduction? I'm not sure what I should be looking for....

 

[vroom_skies]

Pentax K20D:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542060-REG/Pentax_19381_K20D_SLR_Digital_Camera.html

Seems like it fits your need perfectly.
Looks like the K20D body can be had for low $700.00's (new), so you'll obviously have to get a lens. The kit lens can be had for around $50.00, so it won't break the bank.

Bob

 

[fugu]

Random body + 35 f/2 should fit your initial needs and price...

 

[gregnash]

What is the major benefit of a 30D/40D versus the XSi? They look relatively similar (using the DPReview side-by-side comparison.) Better lenses or sensor? Better ISO noise reduction? I'm not sure what I should be looking for....

Much better sensor, better build quality, more features, etc. The XXD series has a magnesium alloy body that allows for a more solid feel and larger grip surface. I have normal/large hands and played with both the XT/XTi series and played with the 20D/30D/40D series and the latter felt much better in my hands. Really go out and play with all the models you can find. see what feels best from you and then come from there.

Right now you can pick up a used 20D from the POTN forums for around $350-$400, pick up a couple used lenses and still be around your $700 mark. Make sure to shop around for things like the memory card as you can get a good 2GB from Newegg for around $20.

Actually I am going to go check out a used Tokina 19-35mm on Saturday that is being sold for $100.

 

[skyline889]

Used will give you the best value for your money and if you're shooting in a lot of low light situations, I'd go with Canon. I love my Nikons but the older generations before the D300 didn't perform as well as the equivalent Canons in terms of high ISO performance imo.

The 20D is essentially the same as the 30D and either can be picked up for just $250-400 on eBay, body only, and that is an absolute steal. The 40D brought out some real big changes so if you're wanting the newer 10mp sensor, live preview, dust vibration removal (Kind of a gimmick) and a normal sized body, that would be the one to get. It'll also shoot at 6.5fps compared to 3.5fps with the newer XSi, though you said you won't be shooting sports so that's somewhat irrelevant. The 450D (XSi) has the newer 12mp sensor and better live preview performance but it's more consumer oriented than the X0D line. If you're ok with a smaller body and more plastic, then it should be fine for you. The XSi also takes SD cards which today, are a bit more common than CF so you'll probably already have a few lying around.

 

[eggrock]

I keep seeing mention of 'live mode' but I can't find a definition, much less determine whether or not I care if I have it. [edit] found a definition - that wasn't as complicated as I made it out to be.

This website was helpful for lens naming conventions:

http://www.ofzenandcomputing.com/zanswers/1054

Why would I want to get something like an 18-55mm lens when I can find an 18-200mm lens? Do lenses function better with a more narrow focal length?

I'm thinking that I need to do a lot more research before I buy anything. There are too many variables for me to make an informed decision.

[edit] Sweet, a coworker just brought in an XTi and a couple of lenses for me to try out over the weekend.

 

[the_b_man]

Do lenses function better with a more narrow focal length?

Generally, yes. Lenses with no zoom at all (primes) are optically the most precise, while extreme zooms like a 20-200 are "10x" (tele is 10x the wide) and they make major compromises. A zoom lens in the 3-5x range is a good compromise for most, although they generally aren't as fast (wide aperture) .. you don't get f/1.8 on zoom lenses but you can get lots of primes that fast.

I agree with a previous poster here who said to go try them, that's actually the best advice so far. If the Rebel "feels" right then there's no sense in buying a used xxD series camera, likewise you might discover you like a chunkier camera better. It's personal and getting out and trying them is the only way to know. Button placement varies from model to model as well.

I'm biased towards Canon but Nikon's cameras are often more feature-rich and they have just as comprehensive a lens line-up as Canon do. Whatever you buy though - remember you're buying into a 'system' of lenses/accessories, the features of the body alone shouldn't guide your choice if you think you'll be expanding later. (And once the 'bug' bites, you will ) If buying something other than Canon/Nikon, have a good look at the 'system' of products first.

 

[PinataUT]

Why would I want to get something like an 18-55mm lens when I can find an 18-200mm lens?

In addition to what was discussed above: image quality, weight, cost. I have a 18-200 IS for walking around on my D80 or D300, but an 80-200 2.8 for sports (and grip to give me 8 fps).

I agree wholeheartedly about the system aspect. I'd be hard-pressed to get something other than Nikon or Canon if I was starting over.

Another decent site might be dpreview.com

 

[eggrock]

Is buying a refurb a good idea?

$687 for a 40D body (and here I said the $700 budget was 'firm'... oh boy)

I also saw a possible $350-400 deal for a 30D on a different forum.

Also, my friend with the XTi wants to upgrade his lenses. He's selling the 18-55 and 55-250(?) for $100 each. I have them right here and they're in great shape.

[edit] Oh yeah, he also recommended going with fotoconnection.com and ignoring their upsale pitch. 3-point-something lifetime reseller rating. lol Might have to pass on that one.

(And once the 'bug' bites, you will

Yes, dammit. But I have my finger in too many pies to go completely crazy. I love computers, audio (mmm, headphones) and now photography. I need a second job....

 

[gregnash]

I would be a bit wary of "refurbished" or "remanufactured" items only because you do not know what the original problem was. Also, with cameras it hard to find exactly where they were serviced, if the refurb was done by Canon then that is not a bad deal, not great but not bad. However, you can get a Like New 40D with low actuations on it for around that if not cheaper from the POTN forums. Atleast with buying from a forum you are in direct contact with the owner and should something go wrong you can always try to contact them.

Here is a 40D with grip and only 5k actuations that went for $700.

 

[skyline889]

I keep seeing mention of 'live mode' but I can't find a definition, much less determine whether or not I care if I have it. [edit] found a definition - that wasn't as complicated as I made it out to be.

This website was helpful for lens naming conventions:

http://www.ofzenandcomputing.com/zanswers/1054

Why would I want to get something like an 18-55mm lens when I can find an 18-200mm lens? Do lenses function better with a more narrow focal length?

I'm thinking that I need to do a lot more research before I buy anything. There are too many variables for me to make an informed decision.

[edit] Sweet, a coworker just brought in an XTi and a couple of lenses for me to try out over the weekend.

If you're shooting in low light then you won't want either. IS will help keep your picture sharp but if you're shooting moving items in low light, you'll need a fast prime or at least an f/2.8 zoom.

If you decide to go with a 40D and your lens budget is constrained, a 50mm f/1.8 "Nifty Fifty" will do the job for cheap (~$80 used). If you decide to go with a used XTi or 30D for around $400, you could get a Sigma 30mm f/1.4 and still have a decent amount of money left over. One thing though, if you go for a fast prime, you need to get used to shooting with a very narrow depth of field. At f/1.4 the margin of error between being in focus and being oof is very small.

If you would prefer a zoom, you can pick up a Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 for around $350. I've never been a fan of the build quality and I wasn't impressed with the CA I saw on the Nikon version, but for a relatively fast, normal range zoom, the Tamron would offer the best bang for your buck.

 

[eggrock]

How about this

$700 for 30D with 28-135 IS lens (lens from 50D kit).

Otherwise I saw a dinged up XTi for $200 on POTN. The XTi feels comfortable in my hand so no problems with the grip. $200 for a body might get me a nice lens. Otherwise, the guy that let me borrow the XTi is selling an 18-55 Tamron and ?-300 Tamron for $200 total which seems to be about average.

 

[fugu]

The 28-135 isn't a great indoor lens. If you pick up the XTi for $200 you can spend $450 on a Tamron 17-50 f/2.8 and another $80 on a Canon 50 1.8

 

[eggrock]

Well, as it turns out, I

1) have no patience

2) or willpower

3) and went to Circuit City to browse...

jeez

 

[skyline889]

Nice buy. 28-135mm IS definitely would not be my lens of choice but the 40D is a great camera.

 

[Zepher]

how much did you get it for?

 

[eggrock]

$909+tax. Nothing too special. I was actually looking for that 100mm macro lens for $227 or $277 but oh well.

I'm really liking the lens, especially compared to the two Tamrons that I was using on the XTi I borrowed.

 

[Zepher]

$909+ tax isn't that bad. was it new in box or display model?
I bought mine for $1053 from amazon (I paid $3.99 for overnight shipping).
I probably could have save $50 if I would have checked out CC.

 

[gregnash]

Nice grab. I love my 20D and actually just picked up a Tokina 19-35mm off of craigslist for $85. Unfortunately Tokina doesnt make them anymore so finding a good reference price is hard but looks like they go for around $200. Have to say that it is quick, wide and has been a lot of fun to play with. Seems incredibly sharp too.

Now that the bug has bitten you should start skulking around the POTN forums to see what you can start doing with this new found hobby!

 

[eggrock]

It was a display model, and probably used (pic counter was at 8,900.) It was also grubby and had fingerprints everywhere on the outside. Evidently touching lenses is fun. But once I cleaned it up it's in pristine condition, no scratches or marks.

The inside was clean though and it seems to work (as well as I can make it work.)

 

[vroom_skies]

Dang 8,900, that's a pity.

 

[eggrock]

Only 91,000 left! But yeah, that's what really makes it an average deal. Can shutters be replaced?

 

[lundrog]

My few cents. I couldn't / Wouldn't buy a used lens / body or a referb, as you really are only taking the word of someone else that the device works.

I wouldn't / couldn't buy a body without a three year warranty.

Now, I normally recommend buying the latest version of a body, as you normally need time to get used / learn the body, and are stuck with it for some time. And for someone's first DSLR, I would recommend a self cleaning sensor. But since you bought this already, yes shutters can be replaced, guess at price would be $200 - 300. Make sure that if you have a return policy that the fully working, and functions correctly, before you keep it.

Things you will need, a 50mm lense, ( great lens for the cost ) , three or four CF cards, a Flash, a bag( water prof ) and a nice tripod, and four or five batteries.

Here is the 50D for $1230 http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=92876 ( body only)

Or $1410 with lens http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=92911

And I do recommend the extended Warranty.


if you like the 40D here you can get it for $1140 with lens.

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=88875

I have done a lot of business with onecall.com and can recommend them.

 

[eggrock]

Four or five batteries? That's an awful lot of shooting. I don't plan on too far from an electrical outlet.

This came with the standard warranty. No extended warranties since it's a CC closeout.

Now that the bug has bitten you should start skulking around the POTN forums to see what you can start doing with this new found hobby!

Lurk mode activated. I will eventually need some help with certain things but for now I need to get used to the functionality that this thing has as well as nail down the basic stuff.

Here's one challenge I had, a pic into the sun + ice glare and everything else shaded:

Is there any good way to shoot this or am I stuck with RAW+image edit?

Notice the slight glare--I have a hood on order (and UV filter, and polarizing filter plus one other).

[edit] Getting out of this park was fun, a nice, steep slope covered in 1" of solid ice.

 

[lundrog]

Four or five batteries? That's an awful lot of shooting. I don't plan on too far from an electrical outlet.

This came with the standard warranty. No extended warranties since it's a CC closeout.



Lurk mode activated. I will eventually need some help with certain things but for now I need to get used to the functionality that this thing has as well as nail down the basic stuff.

Here's one challenge I had, a pic into the sun + ice glare and everything else shaded:

Is there any good way to shoot this or am I stuck with RAW+image edit?

Notice the slight glare--I have a hood on order (and UV filter, and polarizing filter plus one other).

[edit] Getting out of this park was fun, a nice, steep slope covered in 1" of solid ice.

Shoot manual, and use your Histogram, to get started. Then watch your preview, and adjust the shutter speed and aperture as needed.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-histograms.shtml check out that link for a 101 to histograms

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understandexposure.shtml and check out this for exposure 101.

 

[eggrock]

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-histograms.shtml check out that link for a 101 to histograms

Oh, I see. I finally understand what that does now. Things are--becoming more clear.

 

[gregnash]

For the time being I would just start with JPEG images as they take up WAY less space on your card. With RAW you get the ability to adjust the settings when you transfer to your computer but for learning purposes it would be better to shoot with a smaller, less forgiving format to learn.

I agree with Lundrog, learning to shoot manually and previewing off your histogram is perfect. Also near your left thumb is a button with a * on it. This is the Exposure lock button and comes in great handy when using Av or Tv modes. For instance if you set you camera, for the image above, on Av I would have used the AE lock (Exposure Lock) on the trees, something a bit darker exposure wise (maybe the gray of the reflections of the ice. Play with this some as it will get you different effects and exposures depending on where you are at.

Also, learn how to adapt your ISO ratings for what you are shooting.
100 = Bright light outside
200 = Overcast light outside
400 = Cloudy light outside
800 = Decent light inside (either natural or incandescent)
1600 = Medium to low light inside
1600+ = low light inside
Remember though as you up the ISO you will begin to get more grain and noise in your images. Best of all you now have the major part of your new hobby. Learn the limitations of what your equipment can do and see how far you can push them. Now it is all fun and learning.

Oh and kiss your wallet goodbye, there will not be much left in there after this!!!
Speaking of here is my current lineup. Just picked up the middle one for a decent deal on Craigslist. Tokina 19-35mm f/3.5-4.5. So far has been a great lens and seems to give great colors and decently contrasty.

Left to right: Canon 50mm F/1,8 (Nifty Fifty), Tokina 19-35 F/3.5-4.5, Tamron 24-135mm Macro F/3.5-5.6 (all together cost ~$400) All except the Nifty are used!

 

[PS-RagE]

<snip>Lurk mode activated. I will eventually need some help with certain things but for now I need to get used to the functionality that this thing has as well as nail down the basic stuff.

Here's one challenge I had, a pic into the sun + ice glare and everything else shaded:

http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo351/eggrock/img_9144.jpg

Is there any good way to shoot this or am I stuck with RAW+image edit?

Notice the slight glare--I have a hood on order (and UV filter, and polarizing filter plus one other).

[edit] Getting out of this park was fun, a nice, steep slope covered in 1" of solid ice.

I like it! With just a touch of editing that image has real potential. Here is about 5 min work with a little cropping and two colorized layers:

 

[lundrog]

For the time being I would just start with JPEG images as they take up WAY less space on your card. With RAW you get the ability to adjust the settings when you transfer to your computer but for learning purposes it would be better to shoot with a smaller, less forgiving format to learn.

I agree with Lundrog, learning to shoot manually and previewing off your histogram is perfect. Also near your left thumb is a button with a * on it. This is the Exposure lock button and comes in great handy when using Av or Tv modes. For instance if you set you camera, for the image above, on Av I would have used the AE lock (Exposure Lock) on the trees, something a bit darker exposure wise (maybe the gray of the reflections of the ice. Play with this some as it will get you different effects and exposures depending on where you are at.

Also, learn how to adapt your ISO ratings for what you are shooting.
100 = Bright light outside
200 = Overcast light outside
400 = Cloudy light outside
800 = Decent light inside (either natural or incandescent)
1600 = Medium to low light inside
1600+ = low light inside
Remember though as you up the ISO you will begin to get more grain and noise in your images. Best of all you now have the major part of your new hobby. Learn the limitations of what your equipment can do and see how far you can push them. Now it is all fun and learning.

Oh and kiss your wallet goodbye, there will not be much left in there after this!!!
Speaking of here is my current lineup. Just picked up the middle one for a decent deal on Craigslist. Tokina 19-35mm f/3.5-4.5. So far has been a great lens and seems to give great colors and decently contrasty.

Left to right: Canon 50mm F/1,8 (Nifty Fifty), Tokina 19-35 F/3.5-4.5, Tamron 24-135mm Macro F/3.5-5.6 (all together cost ~$400) All except the Nifty are used!

I am not sure if I agree with this for a DSLR, for film maybe.

Basically you want your Shutter speed to be close or equal to the focal length of your lens as a rule of thumb. ( excluding IIS lenses / bodies. ) Any of number of environmental factors can change the required ISO you would need, to get a correct exposure. The fact is, you always want the lowest ISO you can get by with, as you degrad your quailty as you increase you ISO. Some camera bodies do a nice job at Higher ISO ( Canon 5D or 1D series as a example), but the fact is, you are better off shooting a Lens with a larger F stop, if at all possible. If shooting landscape, it is inrelivent, as you will be shooting non moving objects , at low ISO, and a Smaller F Stop.

 

[eggrock]

Left to right: Canon 50mm F/1,8 (Nifty Fifty), Tokina 19-35 F/3.5-4.5, Tamron 24-135mm Macro F/3.5-5.6 (all together cost ~$400) All except the Nifty are used!

Stop, dammit. I don't have any money left! I'm *really* looking forward to getting a macro.

I like it! With just a touch of editing that image has real potential. Here is about 5 min work with a little cropping and two colorized layers:

That's a concept! I never really thought about doing anything with images other than trying to get as much detail as possible out of them (a la Ansel Adams.)

 

[lundrog]

Stop, dammit. I don't have any money left! I'm *really* looking forward to getting a macro.



That's a concept! I never really thought about doing anything with images other than trying to get as much detail as possible out of them (a la Ansel Adams.)

I've a 100 mm Macro, that I am temped to sell you,perfect condition

 

[gregnash]

Stop, dammit. I don't have any money left! I'm *really* looking forward to getting a macro.

Well considering the Nifty Fifty is only around $80 you cant go wrong.

To go along with with PS-Rage was saying. Here is one that I took a couple weekends back. Unfortunately there was not a lot of color so I did a bit of a changes to it.

 

[skyline889]

Nice shot but it looks like you have some dirt on your sensor!

 

[the_b_man]

Here's one challenge I had, a pic into the sun + ice glare and everything else shaded:

The sensor has a limited dynamic range, so you need to either-
1) Select what you want exposed properly in the photo, and meter for it (use the spot meter, use the exposure lock "*" button, then frame/focus and snap) and accept that everything else will be too dark or too bright
2) Bracket exposures and create a HDR (high dynamic range) composite in software. There's some amazing examples of this stuff if you Google for it.

 

[eggrock]

I kinda figured I'd be stuck Photoshopping multiple images at some point. For now I want to take good pics so I'll hold off on any HDR (outside of gaming ).

Oh.. In case other newbies feel the urge to do some HDR editing in PS, here's a tutorial:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1031&thread=20982409