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First Build, ever. (Need some part help/verification)

Amzee said:
Now, there is a clear difference in what you get for the ~$300: a nice Z68 Mobo, an overclockable CPU, a nice water cooler, with push-pull fans, and a blu-ray drive. I guess that only leaves the question: do I really need the performance, and am I really this interested in OC'ing?
Click to expand...
Don't forget faster SSD performance as well with the more expensive setup. However the cheaper setup can have similar SSD performance if you go with the Intel mITX mobo I recommended earlier. Also, another benefit to going with that Intel mITX mobo is that it has an Intel NIC. Which means that you have a better chance of higher speed LAN transfers and stable NIC. A seperate Intel NIC is $30 alone. So the $40 more for the Intel mobo with its faster SSD performance and better quality LAN is totally worth it IMO.

So assuming that you go with the Intel mobo, the price difference is only ~$255. However, your mATX build isn't optimal either in your case: You live neear a Microcenter. As such, unlike those who don't live near a MC, you can take advantage of MC's CPU + mobo deals. While the Asus Maxiumus IV Gene-Z is an excellent motherboard, the problem is that it's not worth it in your case. Right now Microcenter will take off $50 off the cost of certain motherboards. Unfortunately, AFAIK, that Asus Gene-Z mobo does not qualify for that $50 off promo according to this chart:
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/55af2b66#/55af2b66/27

However what is on that chart is the Asus P8Z68-M Pro mATX motherboard. Fairly solid motherboard with decent overclocking capability. Its normal MC price is $130. The $50 off promo knocks it down to $80. The Gene-Z is a great motherboard but not worth $100 more over the Asus P8Z68-M Pro. Though double-check with your local MC if that Maximus IV Gene-Z is part of that $50 off deal.

So if you go with the Asus P8Z68-M Pro motherboard instead, the price difference is only ~$155. But wait, there's more!

The TX650M is semi-modular in that only the PCI-E cables and a few of the molex cables are removable. Not exactly helpful when you're using those cables. I recommend this similar quality and mostly modular PSU instead which will save you an additional $16:
$100 - SeaSonic M12II 620 Bronze 620W Modular PSU

The Corsair H60 is a ncie water cooler. However the HardOCP review of it compared it to the Antec Kuhler 620:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/03/22/corsair_hydro_series_h60_liquid_cpu_cooler_review/

The Antec Kuhler 620 offers slightly lower temperatures, slightly lower noise, and is $5 cheaper:
$65 - Antec Kuhler H2O 620 Liquid Cooling System

If you go with the above changes, the price difference is only $135. IMO, the mATX wins based on price to performance alone. That includes the overclocking capability and other features. If you have to have the smallest size possible, then the ITX build wins of course but its not that great from a price to performance standpoint.
 
Danny Bui said:
Don't forget faster SSD performance as well with the more expensive setup. However the cheaper setup can have similar SSD performance if you go with the Intel mITX mobo I recommended earlier. Also, another benefit to going with that Intel mITX mobo is that it has an Intel NIC. Which means that you have a better chance of higher speed LAN transfers and stable NIC. A seperate Intel NIC is $30 alone. So the $40 more for the Intel mobo with its faster SSD performance and better quality LAN is totally worth it IMO.

So assuming that you go with the Intel mobo, the price difference is only ~$255. However, your mATX build isn't optimal either in your case: You live neear a Microcenter. As such, unlike those who don't live near a MC, you can take advantage of MC's CPU + mobo deals. While the Asus Maxiumus IV Gene-Z is an excellent motherboard, the problem is that it's not worth it in your case. Right now Microcenter will take off $50 off the cost of certain motherboards. Unfortunately, AFAIK, that Asus Gene-Z mobo does not qualify for that $50 off promo according to this chart:
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/55af2b66#/55af2b66/27

However what is on that chart is the Asus P8Z68-M Pro mATX motherboard. Fairly solid motherboard with decent overclocking capability. Its normal MC price is $130. The $50 off promo knocks it down to $80. The Gene-Z is a great motherboard but not worth $100 more over the Asus P8Z68-M Pro. Though double-check with your local MC if that Maximus IV Gene-Z is part of that $50 off deal.

So if you go with the Asus P8Z68-M Pro motherboard instead, the price difference is only ~$155. But wait, there's more!

The TX650M is semi-modular in that only the PCI-E cables and a few of the molex cables are removable. Not exactly helpful when you're using those cables. I recommend this similar quality and mostly modular PSU instead which will save you an additional $16:
$100 - SeaSonic M12II 620 Bronze 620W Modular PSU

The Corsair H60 is a ncie water cooler. However the HardOCP review of it compared it to the Antec Kuhler 620:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/03/22/corsair_hydro_series_h60_liquid_cpu_cooler_review/

The Antec Kuhler 620 offers slightly lower temperatures, slightly lower noise, and is $5 cheaper:
$65 - Antec Kuhler H2O 620 Liquid Cooling System

If you go with the above changes, the price difference is only $135. IMO, the mATX wins based on price to performance alone. That includes the overclocking capability and other features. If you have to have the smallest size possible, then the ITX build wins of course but its not that great from a price to performance standpoint.
Click to expand...

You're awesome. I didn't even know about any of those deals, lol. Thanks a bunch. My In Win Case selection looks alright?
 
Amzee said:
My In Win Case selection looks alright?
Click to expand...

Personally not a fan of that case due its look. Looks fugly to me. But that's more of an aesthetic issue than anything. With that said, I'd recommend this case instead:
$70 - NZXT Vulcan mATX Case

Has a handle and slightly better cooling.
 
Danny Bui said:
Personally not a fan of that case due its look. Looks fugly to me. But that's more of an aesthetic issue than anything. With that said, I'd recommend this case instead:
$70 - NZXT Vulcan mATX Case

Has a handle and slightly better cooling.
Click to expand...

That'd match my orange fans I've chosen too. Should I buy any fans besides the push-pull ones for the Antec 620, to place around the case?

Also, I noticed on the Microcenter specs page it only listed CrossFireX compatibility, do you know if it can also do SLI, incase I upgrade to that later?
 
Amzee said:
That'd match my orange fans I've chosen too. Should I buy any fans besides the push-pull ones for the Antec 620, to place around the case?
Click to expand...
None really. Try out the PC first and then see what fans needs to be replaced or added.
Amzee said:
Also, I noticed on the Microcenter specs page it only listed CrossFireX compatibility, do you know if it can also do SLI, incase I upgrade to that later?
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. If you want SLI capability, you're looking that the Gene-Z again.
 
Danny Bui said:
None really. Try out the PC first and then see what fans needs to be replaced or added.

No it doesn't. If you want SLI capability, you're looking that the Gene-Z again.
Click to expand...

I think I'd have a hard time justifying that Gene-Z, lol, even though it has a lot of nice features, the P8Z68-M Pro is all I actually need right now, tbh. At least, I think it is.
 
Amzee said:
I think I'd have a hard time justifying that Gene-Z, lol, even though it has a lot of nice features, the P8Z68-M Pro is all I actually need right now, tbh. At least, I think it is.
Click to expand...

Yeah I just bought two of these boards and they are awesome, holding a 4.8GHz overclock on my board with the core i7.
 
Amzee said:
-It's a 22" 1680x1050
-Within February, probably.

Also, I forgot to add to the previous post, I removed the aftermarket cooler, because I wouldn't be OC'ing, and the standard should be okay with the 180mm blowing on it.
Click to expand...
If you're going to OC I would definitely go with the 2500k. I don't really know how much you can OC a non-k CPU anymore since BCLK ocing is very minimal.

Also, for smaller resolution I would always go with a faster cpu over a faster GPU. Someone in another thread made the mistake of putting a ton of money into their GPU and got a cheap AMD quad. The performance was pretty bad with shadows on. Absolutely do not count out the CPU. Some games, like Skyrim, are very heavily CPU bound. My own testing shows that CPU OCing on these types of games can give you significant performance boost where GPU upgrades can be very nill. If you plan to play MMO's you definitely want a high end CPU because they are all CPU bound, especially considering the network traffic overhead they have to deal with which is a big part of the latency in MMO's.

I'd rather be GPU bound than CPU bound any day of the week becuase you can always turn down the graphics. You can't turn down the stuff that the CPU is doing. Plus, your entire system is CPU bound whether your gaming or not. A fast CPU will make everything faster, not just games.

*edit*

Here is an example of why you don't want to be CPU limited. There's nothing you can do to fix it. The guy dropped his resolution by half and still did not gain FPS.
 
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bigdogchris said:
If you're going to OC I would definitely go with the 2500k. I don't really know how much you can OC a non-k CPU anymore since BCLK ocing is very minimal.

Also, for smaller resolution I would always go with a faster cpu over a faster GPU. Someone in another thread made the mistake of putting a ton of money into their GPU and got a cheap AMD quad. The performance was pretty bad with shadows on. Absolutely do not count out the CPU. Some games, like Skyrim, are very heavily CPU bound. My own testing shows that CPU OCing on these types of games can give you significant performance boost where GPU upgrades can be very nill. If you plan to play MMO's you definitely want a high end CPU because they are all CPU bound, especially considering the network traffic overhead they have to deal with which is a big part of the latency in MMO's.

I'd rather be GPU bound than CPU bound any day of the week becuase you can always turn down the graphics. You can't turn down the stuff that the CPU is doing. Plus, your entire system is CPU bound whether your gaming or not. A fast CPU will make everything faster, not just games.

*edit*

Here is an example of why you don't want to be CPU limited. There's nothing you can do to fix it. The guy dropped his resolution by half and still did not gain FPS.
Click to expand...

Yup, that's why for the board that I'd OC on, I'd be using a 2500k.
 
bigdogchris said:
Someone in another thread made the mistake of putting a ton of money into their GPU and got a cheap AMD quad
Click to expand...

Article today at Tom's Hardware testing various chips on various recent games showing that for playing Skyrim, even the best AMD chips are barely as good as the i3-2100, even when overclocked. The difference between i5-2400 and the i5-2500K was less significant in comparison.

Of course, you'll do more on your PC than just play Skyrim, but I found the test results interesting.
 
xyexz said:
Yup and I used the asus software to automatically overclock as I always did it myself and was curious how well it would do.
Click to expand...

Hmm, seems pretty cool, one last question, well two:

What fans were on them, and what were your temps at 4.8Ghz?


Thanks so much for the help, since I seem to be building a very similar system, lol.
 
Amzee said:
Hmm, seems pretty cool, one last question, well two:

What fans were on them, and what were your temps at 4.8Ghz?


Thanks so much for the help, since I seem to be building a very similar system, lol.
Click to expand...

I used the fan that came with the Antec H2O 620 although I'm thinking about switching it out with the Scythe I have from another computer I built.

Running Prime 95 for 30mins RealTemp software read 72C max, which I think is very good performance.

Also I have the radiator inside the case next to a side case grill where some of the radiator is being blocked so I'm sure temps will be slightly higher due to that.
 
I think I'm getting down to the last few renditions of my parts lists... any ideas on this one?

Case - NZXT Vulcan - 69.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146065
Power Supply - Seasonic 620W - 89.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151095
Memory - G. Skill 8GB 1600 MHz - 43.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231416
Graphics Card - EVGA GTX 560 Ti 448-Core - 279.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130738
Wi-Fi Dongle - TP-Link 802.11 b/g/n - 18.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833704045
Operating System - Windows 7 Home Premium - 189.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116716
HDD - Seagate Barracuda 1TB 7200 RPM - 124.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148840
SSD - Crucial M4 128GB - 179.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148442
CPU - i5 2500k - 179.99
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0354589
Mobo - Asus P8Z68-M - 74.99
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0375390
Fans - 2x Cougar 120mm PWM fans - 33.98
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835553002
Water Cooling - Antec 620 - 64.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produt.aspx?Item=N82E16835209049
Blu-ray drive - Samsung Blu-Ray Drive - 57.99:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151222

Total: 1409.86



Also, if any of these parts are cheaper anywhere else, feel free to recommend them to me. Thanks again for all of your help.
 
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I can offer a suggestion as far as cost cutting goes. I don't think any of the guys posting suggested it yet, but just drop getting a SSD altogether. Now, I'm not trying to talk you out of one but if money is really tight that'd be one thing I'd cut. You can still have a good gaming rig without a SSD. You could always add it later on. Just a suggestion anyway.

Also be aware that the new Silverstone 450w PSU are quite good now. They fixed the problems in their original model. The new V2 is the model to get. Silverstone has said if you get one of the original models they will replace it with the newer V2 model. I just wanted to get that info out there as well. :)

Edit: For those wanting some info or ideas for a Vulcan case take a look at this:

http://www.overclock.net/t/774308/the-official-nzxt-vulcan-owners-club

Warning! its a long long thread but has some really good ideas and info in it.
 
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I agree with Skott that the SSD choice should be reexamined. Here are a couple of other choices to consider:

You could save $40 and go back to the 64GB SSD, but instead of using it as a separate drive, use it as a cache drive using Intel's RST to give the 1TB drive near SSD speed.

Alternately, you could eliminate or postpone the 1TB drive and get a 256GB SSD for about $40 more. This is what I did, I have yet to need another drive.
 
Well, just checked, and the 256gb SSD isn't $40 more, it's $180 more, which is more than my 1tb HDD costs, so I think I'll stick with both drives.
 
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Amzee said:
Well, just checked, and the 256gb SSD isn't $40 more, it's $180 more, which is more than my 1tb HDD costs, so I think I'll stick with both drives.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the 256GB SSD was $40 more than the 128GB SSD; the total is about $40 more if you eliminate the HDD.
 
darrella said:
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the 256GB SSD was $40 more than the 128GB SSD; the total is about $40 more if you eliminate the HDD.
Click to expand...

Oh, I see. I think I'll stick with the HDD and SSD...

Still not sure about fitting the 620 in there, the tubes are apparently 13" long, which seems like it'd be long enough.

Also, how would I go about powering the second fan for the push-pull to vary with the cpu temp. Does the 4-pin case fan connector on the mobo work for that?
 
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Amzee said:
Also, how would I go about powering the second fan for the push-pull to vary with the cpu temp. Does the 4-pin case fan connector on the mobo work for that?
Click to expand...

You can use the 4-pin case fan connector, Asus boards have software called Fan Xpert so you can make both CPU and chassis fans have the same profile. Or alternatively you can use a Y-cable PWM splitter and run them both off the CPU connector. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812123297
 
WiSK said:
You can use the 4-pin case fan connector, Asus boards have software called Fan Xpert so you can make both CPU and chassis fans have the same profile. Or alternatively you can use a Y-cable PWM splitter and run them both off the CPU connector. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812123297
Click to expand...

Didn't want to use a y-adapter because of power loss and possibility of overtaxing the mobo's port. So, fan xpert seems useful.


Also, I have been reconsidering the Gene-Z, it is 100 bucks more, which is a lot, but it would really be future-proofing the board, since an Ivy-Bridge update is very likely, it already has PCIE 3, and it would be able to support SLI if I buy another graphics card down the line. Just seems more upgradable.
 
Eh, I'd stick with the cheaper board, $100 now sure, but you can just as easily sell the board you're getting now when and if you switch to Ivy Bridge, and the additional cost of a newer board will probably be less than $100 after selling the old. PCIe 3 is a non-feature at present -- you have to get a new chip to "unlock" it, and if you're at all like me it's rare to keep a board through a CPU upgrade.
 
You're gonna need a larger PSU though if you're looking at SLI. Also note that current GPUs are barely saturating PCI-E 1.0 let alone PCI-E 2.0. So you really won't need PCI-E 3.0 for a long time and by the time you do, PCI-E 4.0 will be out. In addition, if you use SLI, you lose out PCI-E 3.0 anyway IIRC.
 
I'd seriously be considering picking up some used unlocked 6950 2GBs (effectively 6970s) since people are dumping them so cheap in favor of 7970s. I bet you could get a pair for around $400, $200 or less each, and I can tell you from personal experience that's an amazing amount of GPU power for not much cash. Even if sticking with a single GPU, a used 6950 2GB is a real contender.

Also, if you can grab it now and have Amazon Prime, the Kingston HyperX 120GB is $190 shipped, $130 after $60 MIR and Kingston is usually pretty quick with MIRs (about a month to get your check / card).
 
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Danny Bui said:
You're gonna need a larger PSU though if you're looking at SLI. Also note that current GPUs are barely saturating PCI-E 1.0 let alone PCI-E 2.0. So you really won't need PCI-E 3.0 for a long time and by the time you do, PCI-E 4.0 will be out. In addition, if you use SLI, you lose out PCI-E 3.0 anyway IIRC.
Click to expand...

What size power supply would you suggest if I wanted to future-proof it?

Also, the cheaper board doesn't have SLI support at all.
 
Amzee said:
What size power supply would you suggest if I wanted to future-proof it?
Click to expand...

I'd recommend at least a quality 750W with at least 60A on the +12V rail. That oughta cover most SLI setups. Something like these:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817207016
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139010
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371052
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151087
Amzee said:
Also, the cheaper board doesn't have SLI support at all.
Click to expand...
I know. And?

Ask yourself this: Is SLI capability worth spending an extra $100? How likely are you going to get a second card for SLI? Thats the only real tangible confirmed benefit from getting that Gene-Z.
 
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Danny Bui said:
Ask yourself this: Is SLI capability worth spending an extra $100? How likely are you going to get a second card for SLI? Thats the only real tangible confirmed benefit from getting that Gene-Z.
Click to expand...

True. While now, I know I won't need SLI, but for upcoming games, it might be nice down the line. However, at that point, I could just buy whatever new graphics card has come out with two GPUs in it... So, the SLI probably is not worth it, I suppose.

Also, does anybody know if the Antec 620 will fit in the Vulcan, or the Dragon Slayer for that matter?
 
Amzee said:
I see they're using a 920 in there. I think it would be better for me to buy one of those, then use the stock fans, as it'd cost me the same amount as the 620 with two aftermarket fans, and presumably would be more effective.
Click to expand...

Can't agree or disagree with that due to lack of info. I haven't seen any reviews showing the cooling difference with the 620 with 3rd party fans and the Antec 920 with stock fans.
 
Danny Bui said:
Can't agree or disagree with that due to lack of info. I haven't seen any reviews showing the cooling difference with the 620 with 3rd party fans and the Antec 920 with stock fans.
Click to expand...

What I've read was that the stock fans on the 920 are decent, and since it has a bigger radiator, I'd think a push-pull on it would be better than a push-pull on the 620; the fans I chose aren't super-powerful.
 
$100 for a 120mm radiator, cheap pump and mediocre waterblock... as Mr. West would say, "that shit cray."

Look at used equipment if you want to watercool -- a 2 or 3x120 rad minimum, decent block, pump and tubing is going to run you $150 maybe, if that. More? Yes. Not shit? Yes. The main thing is it's expandable.
 
silent-circuit said:
$100 for a 120mm radiator, cheap pump and mediocre waterblock... as Mr. West would say, "that shit cray."

Look at used equipment if you want to watercool -- a 2 or 3x120 rad minimum, decent block, pump and tubing is going to run you $150 maybe, if that. More? Yes. Not shit? Yes. The main thing is it's expandable.
Click to expand...

I'm not really interested in trying to do a real watercooling setup, as this is my first build ever. I want to keep it relatively simple.
 
Amzee,

I just built a mAtx system in a TJ08-E case (P8Z68-M Pro and 2500K at 4.5 with CM Hyper EVO air. Temps were in 60s under max load.) and am considering building a second system in an SG08. Here are a few thoughts:

Whichever system you build, I would buy the i5 2500k. That part is an absurdly good deal right now, especially with your Microcenter price.

People have suggested dropping the SSD. I would not do that, as the improvement in boot, software install, and other disk related times are dramatic. You can easily install both the games you're talking about on the 128GB SSD you're looking at and you'll be glad you did. I would save some money by getting a smaller HDD and plan to just use it for system restore image, backup, media files and the like. You wouldn't regret getting a little larger SSD either. I upgraded an older system a few months ago and put a 128GB in it. This new system I went with 180GB and am happy I did.

I like the EVGA cards, and the one you're getting will be plenty fast.

There's some talk in the thread about SLI. I wouldn't think about doing that in a mATX case anyway, as the two cards end up right next to each other and the side fan on one of them is going to be starved. The single card solutions are plenty fast and for small system make more sense in my opinion.

You're listing the same ASUS motherboard that I have and it's good, just be aware that it is lacking a couple of the controls needed for pushing the OC to the highest levels. I got a stable 4.5 easily, but if you were buying the system to water cool and push on try to tweak it as high as it would go, you'd want the Gene MB or some other higher end model.

Related to the above, I wouldn't get the water cooling in that system: It's not needed for the OC level you're going to get on that board anyway, it weights over 2 pounds, and just isn't necessary unless you want it for style points. You might get a couple of ticks higher OC on the 2500K, but with the common install where the water radiator is on the incoming air, everything else in the case is going to be running hotter for not much gain.

The build looks great - let us know how it goes!
 
Igor99 said:
Amzee,

I just built a mAtx system in a TJ08-E case (P8Z68-M Pro and 2500K at 4.5 with CM Hyper EVO air. Temps were in 60s under max load.) and am considering building a second system in an SG08. Here are a few thoughts:

Whichever system you build, I would buy the i5 2500k. That part is an absurdly good deal right now, especially with your Microcenter price.

People have suggested dropping the SSD. I would not do that, as the improvement in boot, software install, and other disk related times are dramatic. You can easily install both the games you're talking about on the 128GB SSD you're looking at and you'll be glad you did. I would save some money by getting a smaller HDD and plan to just use it for system restore image, backup, media files and the like. You wouldn't regret getting a little larger SSD either. I upgraded an older system a few months ago and put a 128GB in it. This new system I went with 180GB and am happy I did.

I like the EVGA cards, and the one you're getting will be plenty fast.

There's some talk in the thread about SLI. I wouldn't think about doing that in a mATX case anyway, as the two cards end up right next to each other and the side fan on one of them is going to be starved. The single card solutions are plenty fast and for small system make more sense in my opinion.

You're listing the same ASUS motherboard that I have and it's good, just be aware that it is lacking a couple of the controls needed for pushing the OC to the highest levels. I got a stable 4.5 easily, but if you were buying the system to water cool and push on try to tweak it as high as it would go, you'd want the Gene MB or some other higher end model.

Related to the above, I wouldn't get the water cooling in that system: It's not needed for the OC level you're going to get on that board anyway, it weights over 2 pounds, and just isn't necessary unless you want it for style points. You might get a couple of ticks higher OC on the 2500K, but with the common install where the water radiator is on the incoming air, everything else in the case is going to be running hotter for not much gain.

The build looks great - let us know how it goes!
Click to expand...

Thanks!

That case of yours looks pretty nice, but it does cost a bit more than the two I was looking at.

Maybe I'll drop down to air cooling and use the difference to get that case... do you like that CM Hyper EVO? How well does it fit in the case?
 
Amzee said:
Thanks!

That case of yours looks pretty nice, but it does cost a bit more than the two I was looking at.

Maybe I'll drop down to air cooling and use the difference to get that case... do you like that CM Hyper EVO? How well does it fit in the case?
Click to expand...

I like the case and the CM Hyper Evo very much. They work together well, with the large downward intake on the case feeding the horizontal cooler that blows out the front. There's not even close to a problem fitting it in. The level of cooling is more than I need. PM me and I can send you a pic if you'd like.

The one other reason you might stick with water is if you are traveling around with this case a lot. These air coolers are heavy and hanging off the MB, and you wouldn't want to be throwing it casually in your trunk or luggage week after week.
 
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