exactly later on, never a specified date as to when they would release these. just because they said we are working on it doesnt mean its a paper launch, thats kinda like saying all new tech is a paper launch because they are working on it.Shifra said:
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Feeding BS?
- Thread starter Skrying
- Start date
snaggletooth
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2005
- Messages
- 4,767
i'm a junky for the front page... controversy is great.
i want a photorealistic production auto racing game that runs on multiple monitors incorporated into the windows of your presently owned vehicle, incorporates motion sensor technology to allow for full integration of your cars' control system into the game, uses air and hydraulic suspension kits to simulate motion within the game.
until there is a game like this i can build into my car all hardware is disappointing...though i'll keep buying products to... speed the development process along... yes, that's it.
i want a photorealistic production auto racing game that runs on multiple monitors incorporated into the windows of your presently owned vehicle, incorporates motion sensor technology to allow for full integration of your cars' control system into the game, uses air and hydraulic suspension kits to simulate motion within the game.
until there is a game like this i can build into my car all hardware is disappointing...though i'll keep buying products to... speed the development process along... yes, that's it.
Nauseous said:
no just a series that we know will be released. High, medium, low. They go hand in hand usually in the same year.
Let me ask you something, what was bad about a paper launch? We got some articles, we read up about the new tech and whats its bringing, maybe got some early benchmarks and a release period. But the worst part is waiting for a product right? What are we doing right now for the rest of Nvidia's products which we know are on the way connected directly to this years releases. We're waiting. Did the fact you were able to read about it damage you so much that the waiting was really no problem? Of course not we dont like to WAIT.
Once again the true absence of a paper launch will be ALL products launched day 1. Not in a preview with a chart showing when they plan to launch cards for sale (ATI) or releasing a card here, waiting 2 months, doing another, etc (Nvidia)...its just as bad.
edit-tried to explain this 3 times now, i give up. Either way, static releases by Nvidia or paper launching by ATI we're waiting for products except for 1 card, the launch card..woopie. I find it very hard to believe im the only one that wants both companies to just launch a series at once and see's whats being done as not much better then the way things were done in the past.
- Joined
- May 18, 1997
- Messages
- 58,571
Until yesterday morning, ATI still had it posted on their website that CrossFire cards would be available for retail sales in August. What you are discussing is in no way similar to what we editorialized about this week.
.::MAGE::.
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2005
- Messages
- 346
PRIME1 said:
Dell had the new 7800GO option on their new notebook line m170's at launch. The funny thing is dell sells SLI 7800GTX's in the top end game systems
. ANyways yea Nvidia has been launching pretty spot on as of late and is highly commendable as it just feels the right way to do things .To give ATi a bit of credit, it seems that they're only stating that the X1800XL is available for purchase at the moment and it also seems they'll be updating with e-tailers when the XL is available here.
The shitty thing about the paper launches is that you can't really find out which of their listed products actually available without doing a bit of poking around. If you lived in a world where the only website accessible was ATi's, you'd end up thinking that you could actually buy the entire X1K series without any problem or delay.
The shitty thing about the paper launches is that you can't really find out which of their listed products actually available without doing a bit of poking around. If you lived in a world where the only website accessible was ATi's, you'd end up thinking that you could actually buy the entire X1K series without any problem or delay.
.::MAGE::.
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2005
- Messages
- 346
Shifra said:
Honestly people get upset over paper launching is because a company says and promises that some x product will be available on october 10th right? Right but then the review sites get a demo product and tell us how cool and awesome it is! Now the 10th comes along and the crap isn't in any store anywhere. This pisses people off because you have basically sold them onto your product but they can't follow through.
Shifra you are being vague and just being stubborn stop making excuses for whatever you are protecting. It's simple doesn't matter the company. Have the product ready when you promise that it will be ready simple. ATI didn't and hasn't done this so they are suckin. No big deal because noone will buy the product anyways and they will learn or they won't.
Nvidia has not listed dates on a 512mb card and any lesser 7 series cards haven't seen them myself
. How are they paper launching? It isn't similar either. You just don't make any sense. Nvidia has not promised any of the 7 series cards by a certain date and not had them buyable in mass quantities. Hell the new x1800xl's at newegg could only be 5 they have who knows? There is the difference Nvidia when promised as of late delivers simple. They have not hyped up and advertised the newer products without having it available first which makes them better in my book at this point.Please stop twisting words and being a jerk.
Brent_Justice
Moderator
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2000
- Messages
- 17,755
Shifra said:
As quoted from ATI on the front page:
ATI said:
The question is not whether they are in "spec" the question is how can they claim to "Shader Model 3.0 Done Right" yet they are missing a very important Shader Model 3.0 feature. That is crux of the situation.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2004
- Messages
- 2,727
They did it for the e-drama Brent. And it werked.
.::MAGE::. said:Honestly people get upset over paper launching is because a company says and promises that some x product will be available on october 10th right? Right but then the review sites get a demo product and tell us how cool and awesome it is! Now the 10th comes along and the crap isn't in any store anywhere. This pisses people off because you have basically sold them onto your product but they can't follow through.
Shifra you are being vague and just being stubborn stop making excuses for whatever you are protecting. It's simple doesn't matter the company. Have the product ready when you promise that it will be ready simple. ATI didn't and hasn't done this so they are suckin. No big deal because noone will buy the product anyways and they will learn or they won't.
Nvidia has not listed dates on a 512mb card and any lesser 7 series cards haven't seen them myself
Please stop twisting words and being a jerk.
i never said nvidia was paper launching, i said the way their launching products, save the gtx, is still has the key thing we hate about paper launches. waiting. i dont know why its so hard to understand. At the rate they have been releasing products they're launching SLOWER then the 6X00 series, why dont you chew on that.
i have done nothing but been blunt in my point, if i'v been vague to you, you havent read what i'v said but merely skimmed and are now hinting i have a bias. I dont expect much considering the hostility here toward ATI as of late. It was bad before the launch its worse now. Even people who know alot more then me have had to step in to tell people they're acting like children about certain things.
Once again to rid a paper launch we have to see an entireline up hit at once. Not one card. Stop making me go OT. This all started cause Prime quoted one sentance out of my 3 paragraph post.
Shifra said:
Can you buy a x1300, x1600, or an x1800 right now and get it shipped? Its worse now because what they stated at launch and before launch hasn't been true. Why do you think ATi has lawsuits against them. All of last year they lied to thier investors about thier short comings. Stating that they were selling out of the x800 lines. When the truth came out that nV regained a good portion of thier lost desktop segment sales volume shit hit the fan for ATi. If that isn't enough proof for you that ATi's management isn't doing good for the company I don't know what is.
kcthebrewer
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2004
- Messages
- 1,728
I will re-iterate:
Shifra, how do you know that nVidia won't use the 6x00 series instead of introducing more 7x00 series?
Remember that this is the company that did not introduce an official refresh to their 6x00 line because they didn't feel it necessary. Lets assume for a second that the 7800 series is that refresh (of which it is rumored). That means that nVidia will next release an 'entire' range with the unified G80.
I see little point in nVidia releasing mid/low 7x00 series when the currently priced 6x00 series outperforms and are priced lower than the x1x00 series (except for the unreleased XT and that is MSRP because we have nothing else to go by).
Shifra, how do you know that nVidia won't use the 6x00 series instead of introducing more 7x00 series?
Remember that this is the company that did not introduce an official refresh to their 6x00 line because they didn't feel it necessary. Lets assume for a second that the 7800 series is that refresh (of which it is rumored). That means that nVidia will next release an 'entire' range with the unified G80.
I see little point in nVidia releasing mid/low 7x00 series when the currently priced 6x00 series outperforms and are priced lower than the x1x00 series (except for the unreleased XT and that is MSRP because we have nothing else to go by).
kcthebrewer said:
-the core map in drivers tells us there will be a 7600/7200, i already said there will be a 90nm 7800 vanilla, should be out within a month
-there is no unified G80
-the programmable pipeline G80 will not be released until they are within range of Vista
-you continue to say facilities and ignore what im saying, all the while staying off topic...
im done helping this thread spin off;sleep
![[RIP]Zeus](/data/avatars/m/69/69225.jpg?1478204720){kind=avatar}
[RIP]Zeus
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2003
- Messages
- 2,590
Shifra said:
Will you plz show us this proof you so call claim?
You know what the title of this thread is....ya stop it...
till you show proof...plz stfu. Your doing nothing but making a complete ass outa yourself...even brent and kyle pwned your ass..so plz quite feeding the bull shit.
I must say I always liked the way reviews are done here and I joined to agree with the statement of no reviews until the product is on the shelf. Lately though the front page rants have made me wonder if the reviews are biased. I mean even the writing style has changed and sounds like borrowed pr language. Oh well it is certainly not Ati pr writing this stuff. As far as Ati and Nvidia - ask me in 3 months who has the better tech.
kcthebrewer
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2004
- Messages
- 1,728
As has been made well clear, Kyle is and always will be biased. He wants the best performance, features, and image quality available; more recently availability being very key. Being lied to/deceived makes him very unhappy.gostriker said:
So, that said, enjoy your free subscription preview ( http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=962007 ) because I am and good night.
Booby McNipples
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2004
- Messages
- 1,102
SgtSweatySac said:
Well, after reading through this entire thread I have decided that this is the best post in here. I especially like the disclaimer because it makes me laugh. So for that I thank you, Mr. Sac, please continue!
SgtSweatySac
Weaksauce
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2004
- Messages
- 88
Booby McNipples said:Well, after reading through this entire thread I have decided that this is the best post in here. I especially like the disclaimer because it makes me laugh. So for that I thank you, Mr. Sac, please continue!
Thanks to everyone who liked it. I usually try to go for quality over quantity when it comes to posts, so I'm glad I delivered.
It appears that my right testicle has the high ground at this point, as for whether he'll go Obi-Wan Kenobi on my Anakin Skywalker of a left testicle, that remains to be seen. He'll agree to any and all reproduction, so long as it's quoted in full.
Yoshiyuki Blade
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2005
- Messages
- 2,881
Shifra: I think you've gotten "paper launch" confused with "announcement". Sure companies announce products/features that we can look forward for in the future, but when they actually "launch" the product, that's a different story. We see pictures, fps comparison charts, in-game screenshots, and all this stuff from a card that actually materialized for retail sale. It gets us excited and ready to drive to a local store to pick it up (or order it online), yet we cant because it's not really there. That's where the difference is.
I read some [H] articles stating that Crossfire was paper launched months ago (as well as many other websites), but I honestly never considered it as a "paper launch" but rather an annnouncement that left a lot of people anticipated about it for months. I think the real paper launch happened some weeks ago. What ATI basically did was that they made an announcement about when Crossfire will be paper launced (or "be available", to sugar-coat it), then they delayed their paper launch even further later on.
I read some [H] articles stating that Crossfire was paper launched months ago (as well as many other websites), but I honestly never considered it as a "paper launch" but rather an annnouncement that left a lot of people anticipated about it for months. I think the real paper launch happened some weeks ago. What ATI basically did was that they made an announcement about when Crossfire will be paper launced (or "be available", to sugar-coat it), then they delayed their paper launch even further later on.
tranCendenZ said:
Sorry, but no. Only the X800XT/PE had poor avail. The X800XT, and X850XT was easy to find.I got a X850XT/PE the week it came out, for under MSRP. Several resellers had them in stock. The X850XT is $100 cheaper on average than the 6800U today.
But how can you make the claim that it is a very important feature? Where's the proof? That one game supports it, and even then it doesn't appear Nvidia cards handle it well. It's an optional feature. I think their "work around" is a better solution anyways. Even Dave at Beyond3D thinks so. Just read his R520 article:Brent said:
I don't see how they are lacking an important feature at all? It would be nice if you could elaborate a little more on your statements. Hey if you're right, I'll be the first one to admit I am wrong. I would just like to see a little bit more facts on this subject.Dave from Beyond3D said:
John Reynolds
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2003
- Messages
- 203
Brent_Justice said:
Brent, you repeatedly saying that it's a "very important SM3.0" feature doesn't make it so. In fact, it's optional. Please educate yourself before repeating more misinformation.
Just read this post over at B3D: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=590773&postcount=90
Again, much ado about next to nothing. Perhaps this might be a good lesson for you, Brent, so that in the future you don't go running half-cocked about a piece of hardware with information from that company's primary competitor. I mean, really, just how responsible was it for you to make your news blurb without even investigating this just a *little* on your own? I'm sorry, but not very responsible at all. You should take your position as video editor at a large hardware site more seriously than this, IMO.
ATI vs. Nvidia threads will never end.
The job of a reviewer is to EVALUATE the products launched by companies, be it performance, availability, pricing and etc. If the product reviewed isn't what it is said to be by the company that provides it, the reviewer has the right and responsiblity to tell the consumers what is wrong and how that company needs to fix it.
Read the reviews with an open-mind and know there are other review websites out there that one will eventually touch upon YOUR g-spot. If we all do that, threads like this one wouldn't even start in the first place.
The job of a reviewer is to EVALUATE the products launched by companies, be it performance, availability, pricing and etc. If the product reviewed isn't what it is said to be by the company that provides it, the reviewer has the right and responsiblity to tell the consumers what is wrong and how that company needs to fix it.
Read the reviews with an open-mind and know there are other review websites out there that one will eventually touch upon YOUR g-spot. If we all do that, threads like this one wouldn't even start in the first place.
xX_Jack_Carver_Xx
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2005
- Messages
- 2,542
On VertexTextureFetch:
+++++
Originally posted by Kyle
We spent a pretty good bit of time with the spec yesterday before the post on the subject and quite frankly we left a bit confused on the actual requirement. That is one of the reasons that we posted the information as a question and not as a statement of fact.
+++++
Exactly, Kyle was just asking. Point is the function of VTFetch isn't clearly in/out of the spec, but regardless the ANSWER is that ATI drivers are what actually deal with the call from game/whatever software and ATI in thier driver can implement the function any way they choose.
If they choose a slow sucky implementation, then the game play results will suck and they will get beaten in the marketplace by NVidia on this point. But anytime ATI wants to add the function in the drivers (implementing thier ex: workaround). SO why is it a big deal?
I think [H] has done a good job pointing out the goods/bads of the X1800 rollout. I'm no NV fan, I have $1200 in ATI video cards and $0 in NVidia cards, but I cant fault anything Kyle has said about the X1800.
I'm confident the X1800XT will be a great upgrade from my X850XTPE's and I'll make the move after the first wave of price insanity passes... say Xmas'y. I'm really looking forward to what ATI will do with the drivers eventually fleshing out the new capabilities of this much more programmable architecture. I would love to see AGEIA and ATI sit down and make some of the PPU SDK functionality thrash the R520 and offload work from the A64. There should be NO IDLE TIME on the R520, it should be busy busy busy all the time
As for could ATI have done all sorts of things better.... you bet, hope they learn from the latest pack of mistakes and fauxpaus, as a stockholder I sure hope so.
Word to ATI.... firstplace for you to WAKE UP and fly straight... make XFire cards work on NF4 SLI boards, and cut the crap. Noone is going to switch thier system over from a perfectly fime NF4 system to CFire motherboard just cause you say so. Especially when we all KNOW it is totally needless. 2 x8 PCIe slots is ALL that is required, NF4 or CFire is irrelevent and we all KNOW IT. The JIG is up. Ditto to NVidia, dont hamstring your products with the requirement that your other products MUST be used... artificially.
+++++
Originally posted by Kyle
We spent a pretty good bit of time with the spec yesterday before the post on the subject and quite frankly we left a bit confused on the actual requirement. That is one of the reasons that we posted the information as a question and not as a statement of fact.
+++++
Exactly, Kyle was just asking. Point is the function of VTFetch isn't clearly in/out of the spec, but regardless the ANSWER is that ATI drivers are what actually deal with the call from game/whatever software and ATI in thier driver can implement the function any way they choose.
If they choose a slow sucky implementation, then the game play results will suck and they will get beaten in the marketplace by NVidia on this point. But anytime ATI wants to add the function in the drivers (implementing thier ex: workaround). SO why is it a big deal?
I think [H] has done a good job pointing out the goods/bads of the X1800 rollout. I'm no NV fan, I have $1200 in ATI video cards and $0 in NVidia cards, but I cant fault anything Kyle has said about the X1800.
I'm confident the X1800XT will be a great upgrade from my X850XTPE's and I'll make the move after the first wave of price insanity passes... say Xmas'y. I'm really looking forward to what ATI will do with the drivers eventually fleshing out the new capabilities of this much more programmable architecture. I would love to see AGEIA and ATI sit down and make some of the PPU SDK functionality thrash the R520 and offload work from the A64. There should be NO IDLE TIME on the R520, it should be busy busy busy all the time
As for could ATI have done all sorts of things better.... you bet, hope they learn from the latest pack of mistakes and fauxpaus, as a stockholder I sure hope so.
Word to ATI.... firstplace for you to WAKE UP and fly straight... make XFire cards work on NF4 SLI boards, and cut the crap. Noone is going to switch thier system over from a perfectly fime NF4 system to CFire motherboard just cause you say so. Especially when we all KNOW it is totally needless. 2 x8 PCIe slots is ALL that is required, NF4 or CFire is irrelevent and we all KNOW IT. The JIG is up. Ditto to NVidia, dont hamstring your products with the requirement that your other products MUST be used... artificially.
I guess Kyle is still missing the fact that all the [H] loyalist will only remember the damage done by a misrepresented post on the main page. A follow up post is good, but the damage is already done; and I think you know that. What people still don't realize becauseo of all the attention is on "availability" and "not at SM3.0 spec" are these:
- ATi is launching no less than six cards at once. Nvidia launchs ONE card and has availability. Is that really hard? How long did it take NV to launch the second 7800 series card?
- ATi's new cores are really wonderful pieces of hardware, if you read any other review. The only thing I took from the [H] review was it was overpriced, not available and ATi should burn at the cross. The follow up bashing on the main page backed up the bad taste from the review.
- Full128bit color "all the time". Improved AF, improved AA. All of this with a 16 pipe card. Funny how that was never discussed in detail, nor mentioned other than checkbox type features.
- With monthly driver updates, this card will continue to improve SPEED and IQ. All we ever see from NV are "beta" drivers that hack IQ for SPEED. I guess it is better not to render something than slow the card down?
- There are cards available online within 48hrs of launch. Not too bad?
snaggletooth
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2005
- Messages
- 4,767
R1ckCa1n said:
possibly the best feature of this site
R1ckCa1n said:
That is funny, I read the same [H] review you did and took away that the card did a lot of things well, was competitive at the high end with the NV equivalent and that the major downfalls for the series was price compared to what NV has available and the fact that users could not purchase cards on the date the NDA lifted. Also all the other reviews I have read seem to say the same thing that was in the [H] review: The X1K series of cards are good but they are not 7800 killers the same way the 7800 was an improvement over the x800 and even the 6800 series of cards.
R1ckCa1n said:
True, a professional way to make that statement would have been:
"Given some of ATI's past availability problems with the X800 XT PE, we will be keeping our eyes out as to when cards show up at retail and will update the article accordingly"
But then again that doesn't push an agenda.
- Joined
- May 18, 1997
- Messages
- 58,571
OldBoy said:
I am sorry you don't like our level of professionality or lack there of. Feel free not to use our free resources in the future.
As for you BACKING UP WHAT YOU SAY, you don't seem to be doing a good job of it. The fact is that you guys come in here throwing around these tremendously generalized statements that bascially mean nothing. When I editorilize, I talk about the issues at hand. You guys do nothing but gripe that I in fact editorialize and miss the point of discussing exactly what was said referencing your own version. I still would like to see you back up what you posted here.
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1028355717&postcount=59
I am waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is, just like I do every day.
- Joined
- May 18, 1997
- Messages
- 58,571
OldBoy said:
And just to make it clear on what our agenda is; it is to provide the best resource in the world for people that want to research video cards before they buy them in order to play the latest games. Quite frankly, I do not write the content with any focus on the tech crowd that simply wants to argue about it and not buy it. Our content is for hardware and gaming enthusiasts that might be considering an upgrade. That said, we certainly discuss the features and the technology that some of you might be interested in, as well as others. That is our agenda, and for you to suggest it is something else is simply silly. Yes....silly.
- Joined
- May 18, 1997
- Messages
- 58,571
OldBoy said:
I would suggest that our style of reporting is not to your liking and that you would likely be much better served by getting your news and editorial elsewhere.
You are not the first person I have seen in a furor over the years that really has a problem with how we say things rather that what is actually said. This is outlined by your inability to SHOW me where we are wrong, but rather you simply make up explanations of what I said and what I meant, which is your downfall. The fact of the matter is that I am not going to change the way I do things and you getting your bloodpressure up about the matter is not going to make me change.
You either love HardOCP or you hate HardOCP. I am good with both sides of that, I am sorry you are not. The fact is, no matter how "poorly" we do things, you continue to read and be an active part of our forums, and that is a good thing. We ask lots of questions of technology companies, and you asking questions of us is welcomed. That said, you have made your point, and it is understood. You are now to the point of beating a dead horse though.
Dude, go outside and have a good Saturday, if you are in north Dallas, I will meet you and buy you a beer.