Fast display with good black levels

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Bun-Bun, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    24"
    VESA mount compatible
    1080p
    120Hz+
    0.1 cd/m² or lower black level
    non harsh matte coating (no sparkly effect)
    not curved

    Does such a panel exist?

    I currently have two Samsung S24A650 displays and I like them other then the weird viewing angle with them. Center of the screen has a contrast ratio of 3000:1 and the rest is closer to 1000:1.

    Also am having a weird stuttering issue that seems to be isolated to the display.

    Also have really bad ghosting.

    Trying to find a faster display, if it has gsync thats cool but not required.

    Also I am really sensitive to pixel sub structure, if some people see lines or dithering I will most certainly will as well and cant stand it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  2. Armenius

    Armenius [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    11,035
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    The Eizo Foris FG2421 is the only one I can think of, but it has been out of production for awhile. Acer makes a 27" called the Z271 that would meet your other criteria, but the DPI of 1920x1080 at this size is a bit large for desktop use in my opinion. It also has an 1800R curve.
     
  3. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Well I would be willing to push the monitor further back if it was 27"... but curve is a deal breaker. Added that to my requirements.

    That Eizo FG2421 looks good though. A quick google search suggests it is fairly easy to mod to be vesa mountable, I wonder how they mean.

    That is if I can find one...
     
  4. geok1ng

    geok1ng [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,840
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
  5. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    That's funny as I just saw this at my favorite retailer and am half way through that review... Other than the curve it looks like exactly what I want.

    I am seriously considering it.
     
  6. geok1ng

    geok1ng [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,840
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    I would be hard pressed to refuse the C24FG70 at $279, a size/price range that practically begs for multi monitor setups. :p

    - It has the best perceived motion blur of all non OLED/CRT monitors thanks to a scanning backlight using edge-li zone dimming.
    - input lag of less than 1 frame
    - best contrast of all true gaming monitors still in production
    - best color gamut of all true gaming monitors
     
    Armenius likes this.
  7. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Yeah it looks really good.

    I'm in Canada so I can't order from that Amazon page but I found a source to price beat through memoryexpress.com with. $438 CAD vs $600 retail :D
     
    Armenius likes this.
  8. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Monitor shipped! Should have it tomorrow.
     
    Armenius likes this.
  9. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Well I got the monitor yesterday. Haven't had a ton of time with it yet but I am completely sold on 120/144 hz monitors now. Game changing.

    The monitor... amazing colors out of the box, great gamma response, excellent motion response so little tearing and smearing its like im on a TN panel! The AR coating isn't too aggressive, exactly how I like it.

    But the sub pixel structure... light colors are square and dark colors are tiny dots. Text is blurry and some things just look weird. Not sure if I'm going to be able to get used to it. At least it doesn't have any vertical or horizontal lines.

    Still might try and find that Eizo used somewhere.
     
  10. geok1ng

    geok1ng [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,840
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    just for sanity check, confirm subpixel structure:

    http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/subpixel.php

    then proceed to adjust cleartype:

    https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/28790/tweak-cleartype-in-windows-7/

    Hit Start, type “cleartype,” and then select “Adjust ClearType text.”

    To turn ClearType on or off, just select or clear the “Turn on ClearType” option and then click “Next.”

    Next, you’ll be taken through 4 or 5 screens (depending on your version of Windows) where you’re asked to choose the text that looks best to you out of several examples. The highlighted selection is your current setting, but you can click the example that looks best on each screen and then click “Next.” Just use your best judgment and pick the one that feels right to you.
     
  11. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Yeah I tried adjusting cleartype but it didn't help.

    I'll check that page on it tonight!
     
  12. igluk

    igluk Gawd

    Messages:
    655
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2014
    Well they had that discussion at overclock.net, but no closure.
    Something is weird with the subpixel structure of the C24FG70, it's not that the subpixels shrink which is normal for many modern VA panels.
    But on photos it looks like somehow one pixel is mapped to the bottom&top section of what are actually two seperate pixels. And this may cause the sharpness issues/fuzzy edges.
    Not sure if that's fixable/affects all displays. You can see it when photographing the mouse pointer:

    C24FG70
    regular VA
     
    Armenius likes this.
  13. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Yeah exactly! I am having a similar issue on a new laptop I got with an LG gsync panel in it as well. Driving me nuts all these displays with sharpness issues in my life...

    Do you have a link to where this was being discussed on overclock.net?
     
  14. igluk

    igluk Gawd

    Messages:
    655
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2014
  15. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Thanks for the link.

    Hmm... need to play with it some more.

    Looking at the Asus MG279Q. Alot more money though. tftcentral had theres with .10 black level, 1200:1 contrast. Not as good but maybe I can get some nice lights in my room that don't add heat to help with perceived contrast. EDIT: see some other reviews that were only able to get 800:1 out of it :(

    Or find a used Eizo FG2421 lol
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  16. geok1ng

    geok1ng [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,840
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    i am sorry i could not help.

    cleartype settings at least should offer you the option with better text rendering, or least worst:LOL:. if all else fails, disable cleartype.
     
  17. NamelessPFG

    NamelessPFG Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    276
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    About the whole "3000:1 contrast in the middle, 1000:1 at the edges" thing, that sounds like the well-documented contrast shift quirk of VA-type LCDs.

    The aforementioned Samsung C24FG70 would be tempting, but of course, they're just too obsessed with curved screens nowadays. No thanks!

    I actually nabbed a second-hand Eizo FG2421 on the cheap not too long ago, and this thing is no joke. It's probably the only LCD right now that would make up for my dead GDM-FW900, because top-tier CRTs like that spoil you rotten in terms of having refresh rates, motion clarity AND deep blacks!

    You'll have to keep your eyes peeled to even find one for sale, though; I just happened to be looking on eBay at the right time. If you can get your hands on one and the potential for dust specks in the screen and backlight edge bleed don't put you off, though, it's well worth it.
     
  18. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    yeah its definitely a VA characteristic, but these are especially bad. Didn't bother me when I got them but I've grown to hate it. My C24FG70 has it to some extent but not like my old one did. Sitting head on to the monitor at 24" from the screen I only see a slight contrast shift on solid grey colors. Hardforum for example shows no contrast shift.

    And I'm with ya on the curve screen thing, but for a desktop monitor I'm finding I don't hate it. Would prefer flat though. What I do hate is the half height pixel BS.

    After playing with the C24FG70 some more this weekend... I'm going to keep it. The non existent input lag and amazing pixel/motion response is too awesome too pass up for the price I paid. Plus I discovered the picture is better via HDMI than DP.

    I am going to keep my eye out for a used Eizo FG2421 as that still sounds like the best monitor for me.

    Also looking at the Asus MG279Q. One review shows a black level of .1 cd/m² giving a contrast of 1200:1. If I add some nice floor lamps to my room instead of gaming in the complete dark that could be acceptable I think. But then saw another review that only got 800:1 contrast ratio out of it. So...
     
  19. NamelessPFG

    NamelessPFG Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    276
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    I get the feeling that contrast ratios on LCDs are a crapshoot. My FG2421 only gets about 3300:1 static contrast according to my i1Profiler calibrations, well short of what TFTCentral got in the 20-30 brightness range (above the claimed 5000:1).

    I just don't complain too much about it since that's still over three times what my other LCDs can offer when measured with the same i1Display Pro and software, and this was a second-hand one I only paid like $242 shipped for in the first place. It's something that would rightfully upset anyone who paid the full $600 new, though.

    However you slice it, LCDs can't truly nail black by design, not even VA panels. The only way around it is to go back to CRT or hope we get more affordable OLED monitors that can hit 120+ Hz in the next few years, and the former becomes more and more impractical as time goes on.
     
  20. zone74

    zone74 Gawd

    Messages:
    625
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2015
    1. Don't trust contrast ratio measurements below 100% backlight. The lower the brightness level, the less accurate the measurement will be with most consumer-grade meters.
    2. Any white balance changes you make from native, reductions in contrast, ICC profiles/LUTs you apply will reduce the contrast ratio.

    Maximum backlight, contrast, r/g/b gain, and minimum brightness (black level) should measure much closer to 5000:1.
    That's why it's important that the backlight source is as close to D65 as possible.
    You should also try to make as many adjustments in the monitor as possible, and as few as you can in software. (ICC profiles etc.)

    The new Panasonic IPS panels are pretty nice. 1000 nits brightness and 1,000,000:1 native contrast.
    Now we just need them to make high refresh rate panels aimed at consumers instead of the professional market.
     
  21. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,280
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Oh wow, the Panasonics miracle IPS panel is already in production for professional monitors? This is great news! I hope it finds a way into consumer monitors and TV's soon. Any info on how much that Eizo is going to cost?
     
  22. igluk

    igluk Gawd

    Messages:
    655
    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2014
    5000 bucks - but it's only Tftcentral's guess.
    Panasonic's regular IPS panels are already fooking expensive, granted they often have higher contrast (up to 1800:1) and are usually glow-free, but they only make premium products. (mainly for professional and medical use and some high end consumer notebooks)
    Other than the 31.1'' in the Eizo a 55'' panel is also being produced we might see it in a TV eventually, again for insane prices probably. (regular Panasonic TV don't use own panels, mostly panels from InnoLux and LG Display)
    Have to hope some other manufacturer eventually copies the dual layer manufacturing process if we want it cheaper (the process works with existing panel facilities)
     
  23. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Good to hear there is possibly a future for IPS with good black levels. I like IPS other than their black/grey response due to glow, poor contrast, etc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  24. geok1ng

    geok1ng [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,840
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    This deserves further investigation. try some test patterns to discern between full and limited RGB.
     
  25. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    First thing I did was make sure I had full RGB set when I plugged in HDMI. Its not color or black levels that are better with HDMI, its the pixel mapping.

    ie. on boot the display port connection has a ton of lines and text is super blurry. via HDMI it looks smooth and normal. In windows the half height pixel issue is still present but somehow less pronounced via HDMI? I dunno its weird.

    I found a used Eizo in Canada. Working out a deal right now.
     
  26. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Yeah I don't concern myself too much with contrast ratios. What I look for is the absolute black levels. If the display can achieve 0.05 cd/m² or better then I am happy. 0.01 or better and I am really happy :) (aka my plasma TV)

    Can't wait for OLED or true QLED to become mainstream in desktop monitors. I hate how phones get all this nice tech but desktop monitors get shit for the past 6 years.
     
  27. geok1ng

    geok1ng [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,840
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    DP boot should not be an issue in 2017, even for NVIDIA, whose DP behavior on my U2515H was unreliable, to say the least.
     
  28. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Asus Strix GTX980

    I dunno I have had so many issues with DP over the past few years I have grown to hate it... which is saying something cause I really hate HDMI.
     
  29. Snowdog

    Snowdog Pasty Nerd with Poor Cardio

    Messages:
    7,891
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    I wouldn't count on this ever showing up in an affordable model.

    From what I can tell about Panasonic is that they are essentially stacking two LCDs 1000:1 X 1000:1 = 1000 000:1.

    Given the thickness. It does seem to go in line with the Panasonic double stacked LCD.

    [​IMG]


    This is the kind of solution that only ever ends up in niche products.

    I am betting this is over $5K and closer to $10K.
     
    Armenius likes this.
  30. steal

    steal 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,149
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2002
    If Panasonic can make a panel with 1,000,000:1 native contrast, why aren't they putting those panels in TV's?
     
  31. Snowdog

    Snowdog Pasty Nerd with Poor Cardio

    Messages:
    7,891
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Read the post above yours.
     
    Armenius likes this.
  32. Bun-Bun

    Bun-Bun Gawd

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    My Eizo FG2421 will be here next thursday!
     
    Armenius likes this.