Fallout 76 No Longer Has Its Frame Rate Tied to the Physics Engine

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by cageymaru, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    DSO Gaming is reporting that Fallout 76 no longer has its frame rate tied to the physics engine after the latest patch. Now PC gamers can run the game at whatever frame rate that their systems are capable of.

    Bethesda has also promised to add support for ultra-wide monitors via a future patch, a push-to-talk functionality, and a FOV slider. So yeah, kudos to Bethesda for unlocking the framerate and here is hoping that - alongside the aforementioned features - there will be even more tech improvements for the PC version of Fallout 76!
     
  2. Aireoth

    Aireoth [H]ard|Gawd

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    Wait, there is no push to talk? Beta's really need to stop being pushed as finished products.

    I guess the rest matter too, but with all the games that don't support UW or FOV changes... sigh.
     
  3. HeadRusch

    HeadRusch Gawd

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    Now all the need to add is some content and.....wait, too soon???
     
  4. Parja

    Parja [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Holy shit, only took 'em like 20 years to figure that out! Can we get this on all of the other Gamebyro games now?
     
  5. Armenius

    Armenius [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If they were able to fix it so quickly here, why couldn't they do it in Skyrim or Fallout 4? Maybe they can take the time out of their busy schedule messing up peoples' mod installs adding Creation Club content to actually trickle this change down for something meaningful.
     
  6. purple_monster

    purple_monster Limp Gawd

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    theres no push-to-talk or fov adjustment or wide monitor support? thats not really something you brag about implementing... SHAME. SHAME. SHAMMMMMMME.
     
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  7. bsbllclown

    bsbllclown n00bie

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    Where in the patch notes does it say this again? They had 1 line item for PC changes, and this was not listed.
     
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  8. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    It wasn't mentioned in the patch notes from what I understand. The feature was just "there."
     
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  9. bsbllclown

    bsbllclown n00bie

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    Undocumented feature :p.

    Yah, i cant stand it when devs don't post accurate patch notes. I work with supporting software for a living so its a pet peeve of mine anyway. My guess in this circumstance is that its not official and never will be official.
     
  10. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    About god damn time! Why the hell it took so long to patch this "feature" of Gamebryo away anyway? It has been a nuisance ever since Oblivion.
     
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  11. cyriak

    cyriak n00bie

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    If its not broken don't touch it.

    older the code, more things will incorporate fixes for the results of original botched implementation so fixing it is risky
     
  12. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    Well, not broken is arguable. Too many things were tied into the framerate, from physics to load times and all of them causes issues. Okay, the physics caused issues only if you tried to run the game in higher FPS to make use of your high Hz monitor BUT loading times in FO4 were ridiculous even on SSD unless you used hacks to turn off FPS limits during loading screens.
     
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  13. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    Whatever slack jawed, sister banging idiot linked the physics to the frame rate needs to be taken out back and beaten with a garden hose filled with concrete. That person should NEVER work in gaming industry as a programmer. That lesson was or rather should have been learned by most developers back in the early 1990's when this sort of bullshit made earlier games meant for older hardware unplayable. TIE Fighter, X-Wing, and many other titles are example of games that were broken by this design decision. Plenty of game developers in modern times have suffered intense criticisms of this as well. EA received this for one of its Need for Speed titles on PC. Physics were tied to the frame rate and the frame rate was capped at 30FPS. This didn't go over well with the PC community and that game was trashed for it.

    There is no excuse for this kind of bullshit in today's AAA games. The Fallout 76 development team should know better and should be ashamed of themselves for putting the game out there in such a state.
     
  14. Silverlok

    Silverlok [H]Lite

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    I would assume the sister banging goes back a generation or two, has become become normalized , and this , what is it ?, 100GB of new release patches is the wedding gift from the last generation to the next ( generation of six fingered mouth breathers )

    About that, I am starting to wonder if it ( the 76 slow roll train wreck ) is not an epic trolling within bethesda ( lower case intentional ) designed ( and now executed ) to de-rail and dis-enfranchise certain parties or groups within bethesda. Because if it is not that company might want to buy a few bilge pumps for the Fallout franchise.

    (edit: you know these lumbering colossi companies keep buying big name IP's and think that THE NAME ITSELF is the essence of customer loyalty , when in reality a rose by any other name is still a rose , but a rusty chainsaw being marketed as a sexual aid under the label 'rose' , may , may I say, not be like a rose at all )
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  15. seanreisk

    seanreisk Gawd

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    My C.A.M.P. stash is still full. :unsure:
     
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  16. Krenum

    Krenum [H]ardForum Junkie

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    One step closer to being a final
    thumb_even-my-cats-inbred-memewh-ones-cletusspuckler-cletus-slackjawedyokel-slackjawed-14209968.png
     
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  17. BloodyIron

    BloodyIron 2[H]4U

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    This is shit that should have been fixed months before release.
     
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  18. Slash3

    Slash3 Limp Gawd

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    Push to Talk was intentionally left out, under the guise of them wanting to encourage an "open" sense of communication among players who happened upon each other. Really.
     
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  19. ZiggyDeath

    ZiggyDeath Limp Gawd

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    My guess is that there was sufficient cancellations to force them to allocate resources to fix this unfixable problem.

    A combination between IP fatigue and dealing with the same shit every time finally drove the numbers low enough where they had to "listen".
     
  20. AceGoober

    AceGoober Live! Laug[H]! Overclock!

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    Several sites are reporting UK sales down over 80% so I'd have to agree with you on this point.

    If the FPS/physics issue is indeed 'fixed', I'm hoping Bethesda also releases a patch to fix FO4 and earlier Fallout titles. This is only one of the issues which caused me to get a refund for FO76. Issues like this should have been fixed years ago.
     
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  21. joobjoob

    joobjoob Limp Gawd

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    Thanks for the updates Bethesda, did you also get a Boobjob for your grandmother right before her funeral?
     
  22. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    It never should have been built that way to begin with.
     
  23. Gweenz

    Gweenz [H]ard|Gawd

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    I just want to say I've always hated the name Gamebyro. It's awkward. Also see: Infogrames.
     
  24. Bigbacon

    Bigbacon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    probably some intern who was given like 3 weeks to code it and they just took whatever he/she did and slapped it in there ages ago and never cared.

    all the flip side, the whole idea of FPS being capped at says 60 (or 63) doesn't bother me in the slightest as long as my computer is capable of playing said game at that FPS consistently. Haven't cared much about FPS since like the Quake 3 days.
     
  25. Olle P

    Olle P Limp Gawd

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    It's obviously worked just fine in all the previous single player games they've launched.

    The main problem is that they've re-used a game engine tailored for just single player, and has had little to no regard for all the requirements of multi-player that aren't there for single-player.
    There's still a bunch of those problems remaining, some of which are unlikely going to be fixed less a total re-write of the code is done.

    As much as I love FO4, FO76 is something I won't spend money on until it's been more matured in a year or three. Then I'll make a new evaluation.
     
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  26. Nafensoriel

    Nafensoriel Limp Gawd

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    It didnt take them 20 years. It took them 20 years to have a case where performance was high enough to make it make sense. I will attempt to explain why the FPS limit existed in the first place...

    If you have two actors in a scene and you are going to have those actors engage in a synced animation without it looking like hot flaming garbage you need to have a reference point. There were many many ways of doing this.

    The most common in FPS games was to tie the animation to a location on the map. The trouble with this method is you had to do it for every single location and often needed to have an independent animation for each location even if it involved only minor tweaks. Else you'd have to replicate the original location exactly(hence why FPS games have weird "blank" spots around cutscene locations typically).

    The second most common way was to have the two actors "talk" to one another. This could either involve a map location or a constant radial check. The issue with this is it was massively performance dependent. You are adding a constant check. The second downside is to keep performance remotely in the functional range the delay between checks would occasionally have actors run through each other or past each other causing odd visual events before the animations started.

    The third method was an absolutely controlled rendering. This actually allows for animations to sync quickly and smoothly 95% of the time, it did not require map locations, and it did not require expensive performance checks. To play one actor just tells another "I'm going to hit you" and that actor responds at frame x with a synced animation. Additionally, this allows for some very performance friendly physics work behind the scenes.


    As I said before FO76 isn't really a game so much as a testing platform. They are using it to rebuild, live, parts of the engine and finish the transition to Creation engine. With this change alone over 75% of issues modders have had in the past just vanished.
    Also its worth mentioning that the GFX engine is not significantly changed. Everything you think is an "improved" graphic for FO76 could have been done in Skyrim. PBR, light engines, and background loading were reworked as far as I can tell... Nothing else honestly.


    /edit Oh I should mention I dont mean YOUR performance. I mean the engines. CE was limited internally by parts of gamebryo that were not updated. You could easily see this if you ever attempted any large scale mod of FO4 or Skyrim. Things like objects per grid could have been significantly increased if the lighting engine didn't shit itself at the first window for an example. CE is AWESOME under the hood.. mostly. It's still got a prius body though so that hemi doesn't ever get used.
     
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  27. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    Except, it doesn't work fine. It doesn't even work in the previous Fallout games. I didn't play those games but a quick Google search pulled up the same bullshit problems that one can expect to experience as a result of special ed style decision making.



    The problem is that during the release of Fallout 4, 120Hz, and 144Hz monitors were common place as they are today. Gamers like faster frame rates and smoother game play. Unless you are running some type of variable refresh rate monitor and video card combination, 60Hz while using a 144Hz monitor isn't going to be pretty. Not to mention, the physics issues in the game itself. I don't have any desire to play an immersive single player game at double or triple the speed it should be played at.

    There are plenty of examples of games dating back decades where this was a huge problem. Many of those games were single player only. I think it would be more accurate to say; "The impact of this retarded design decision was less evident in previous Fallout games than in Fallout 76." That's perhaps a more accurate statement but the dumb ass decision still seems to be a pretty massive mistake to me.

    It has nothing to do with the engine being tailored for single player. It has everything to do with the fact that locking physics to framerates is and always was a bad fucking decision. Any game developer or development team that does this is either a bunch of amateurs or they ride a short yellow bus to work.
     
  28. Nafensoriel

    Nafensoriel Limp Gawd

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    Incorrect. No engine is tailored for single player or multiplayer. The frame-locked animation was a trade-off Bethesda accepted to have worlds as large as they did.

    It absolutely astounds me that people can forget Bethesda has provided the largest game worlds to us for decades. Only recently have we seen other companies offering similarly sized game worlds with remotely the same feature set. CDPR had to do this with a ground-up engine design. FarCry4 did this with an absolutely gutted game world relying on a ton of repetition. That kind of feature has a cost in engine design.

    I'm sorry I normally don't like to say something inflammatory but in this case anyone who thinks frame-locking was "bad" in the case used for Skyrim and FO4 has exactly zero understanding of what happens during game development nor do they have the faintest idea about how a game engine actually works or the compromises required for PC development when your target audience isn't all running i9s with 2080s.
     
  29. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    I didn't say that it was. I was responding to a statement made by someone else. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on this point.

    Quality over quantity. I don't care if the game worlds are the largest if it comes with issues common to frame rate / physics dependencies.

    Nonsense repeated doesn't become truth. Its not a case of having zero understanding of how gaming development works. Its that I disagree with your views on the decision to lock the framerate to physics on any PC game. I have seen the problems that go with that decision since the 1990's. Its such a bad trade that I don't think larger game worlds or any other benefits to this lazy coding method are worth the inherent drawbacks of such an approach.
     
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  30. Nafensoriel

    Nafensoriel Limp Gawd

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    So the fact that there is zero possibility of games like FO3, FO4, Oblivion, or Skyrim existing at all doesn't factor into your opinion? The technical challenges of allowing a game with free actors to sync animations 15 years ago were pretty much the single reason animations have been tied to locations. Trying to make Skyrim in Unreal or Frostbite would be hair pullingly enraging.

    That's the point I'm trying to make. FO4/Skyrim would flatly not exist in anything remotely representing their current form on any other engine on the market short of RedEngine. The compromises to actors(which FO4 uses around 11 for NPCs compared to farcry4 using two) alone would damage any hope of immersion and erase any possibility of archetyping races as anything more than colour changes. Never mind it can do this with hundreds of actors on the screen at once without prebaked scripts.

    I understand you see it as a downside but when the alternative is nothing it's a spurious argument at best. The developers themselves prefer CE. It's not just "greed" as people seem to think it is which should clue you into the possibility of CE having far more utility than the common gamer expects.
    So yes there are drawbacks. Yes, I fully understand how annoying those drawbacks are.. probably better than most do.

    Skyrim was the first time when the engine truly began to have competitors in its space and even then they had already consistently proven a very aggressive upgrade path for the engine. Bethesda was one of the first companies to do PBR for example. The one factor they have not touched on until recently(and if you believe the "fix" took a few weeks I have some swampland to sell you) was the rendering system. Funny they bought ID not that long ago eh? Script and animations are the last true bottlenecks left.
     
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  31. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm not sure how many times I have seen developers make this arrogant mistake, trying to manipulate player behavior through game mechanics just drives away customers.

    Take ammo for instance. We can craft ammo, we can buy ammo, we can trade ammo, but we can't scrap or sell ammo to vendors. Absolutely stupid.

    They did this to encourage interaction between players. But it doesn't make anyone do that at all. All it does is piss off the solo types who absolutely do not and will not play with others, while the group types suffer a little less, they are the ones already playing together.

    Now which group of players are new to Fallout 76, (because it's a new multiplayer title), and which group are mostly their old single player fan base? Yes ...... Completely piss off the people who are the ones who have supported your products for decades.
     
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  32. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Oh, and I know I am not the only one suffering from horrible lag and frequent disconnects since the server maintenance the other day.
     
  33. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'm honestly kind of shocked that

    1. This got fixed at all.
    2. It got fixed so fast.

    I mean seriously, we're only talking millions of players this has affected in previous Bethesda games on the same engine.
     
  34. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    OK, that's just obtuse. Not building those games like that doesn't preclude the possibility of their existence. Sure, they might have been made differently but that doesn't guarantee that those games would be worse off for it. Unless you judge games only by the size of the game world. There are other games that are great and aren't built that way. Linking physics and frame rates together provides a fairly shitty gaming experience by itself. It takes a lot to make up for that. Conversely, providing a massive game world by itself doesn't make a game good. I'd rather have the occasional load screen than deal with games that can only run at 60FPS or less and broken physics if you go beyond that.

    You can't know that for certain. It isn't as though there is only one solution to a given problem. Game engines have also been adapted to go well beyond the confines of what they were originally designed to do lots of times. I'm not saying its ideal, but problem solving is funny in that it can yield multiple solutions for a given problem. In this case, Bethesda picked an easy solution and didn't seem to care about the drawbacks that solution incurred until FallOut 76.

    Plenty of games have been considered "immersive" without being designed that way.

    I never said it was greed. I said that locking physics to frame rates is a simpler method of coding and it has significant drawbacks. Its one thing to do that on console games where locked FPS and a 30 or 60FPS rate can be locked in. On the PC, its unacceptable and it goes over like a turd in a punch bowl every time.

    I never said anything about how long it took to make the changes to Fallout 76. I sure as hell never thought the solution would have been quick.
     
  35. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm not so sure this was a fix. I think it broke other things which is why they didn't try to do this before. Old guys who developed the earlier versions of their game engine just knew better. Now they have newer guys and they thought they could make this change and it wouldn't break anything, I think it's broke something. Maybe not, maybe it's not connected to the stability problems at all.
     
  36. blkt

    blkt Gawd

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    Every time I read an article for this game I think Interstate 76, which was also tied to physics.
     
  37. Nafensoriel

    Nafensoriel Limp Gawd

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    1&2] Yes I categorically state Skyrim could not have been developed for the budget and feature set it had at launch on any engine open to them at launch. The alternative engines of the day did not have the capacity or infrastructure to create a linked open world without loading screens that could handle the number of live independant actors or objects.
    There are a few things CE did exceptionally well. First is the world and actors do not need interaction to be scripted. If I spawn 100 faction a and 100 faction b they respond to each other they are individually coded to do so. IE the behaviour you see has been gamebryo specific and not very commonly replicated. Replicating that level of actor independence and interaction takes an engine rewrite.
    To give a more apt example if you have 2 raiders on a grid patroling the base they don't need a "path". They simply need to be spawned with "patrol" flagged. If they detect you its due to their own internal code and any reaction by others is by those actors independent code. Nothing is batched or arbitrarily broadcast(ie the cell isn't automatically aggroed.. just those in "shout range" of the actors in the chain). This is key to making randomized "feels lived in" worlds that RPG players typically want. It already has a high CPU cost though. This is where the framelock comes in. By using it they save a good amount of resources not having to have constant communication between actors. The fact that this entire process can be randomized with different behaviours etc makes it fairly exclusive and critical... and this is just one element of the CE that was not replicated at the time. Do you think CDPR made redengine out of cost savings? No, they made it because nothing else does what they needed it to do and Bethesda sure as hell isn't selling the CE.

    /edit I should clarify this better. Sorry.
    Could you make a game like Skyrim/FO4 on a different engine? Yes. With half the game world, more bugs, less quests and factions, and no open ended console or modding system.. because those were the alternatives and each of them requires a complete retraining of their programmers. This is why I can say categorically the games would not have existed. Any other option at the time open to them would have taken to long or cost to much or simply been far to risky to develop.

    A game is not the replication of the graphics. That is easy.. the translation into the playable world is what is hard and no you can't just plug and play engines. Picking the wrong engine that requires many resources to adapt to your purpose is the death of a project. At the time no other engine came close to what the Skyrim feature set presented. That said.. I will agree that a huge part of those feature sets is "invisible" to gamers. It would be akin to a good roofer vs a mediocre one. To the end user, the product might look the same.. but be drastically different in end quality. The user won't care because the roof doesn't leak though so its hard to translate to them why one is good and one is mediocre.

    I understand your point.. but with the engines of the time, you would look at a higher budget and longer development time for what would essentially be fewer features. Business wise that doesn't make sense.

    3] Yes this ends up being an opinion feature. However being able to represent race more accurately is one of those small subtle features that end up paying off in reviews. We've seen cases in the 90s where people would complain that black characters were just reshaded white characters. In fact, this problem was the direct reason why older games were 99% white male actors which later shifted to a white male and female actors. It isn't an SJW point but its part of the "uncanny valley" effect humanoid characters give the end user. We notice when a room is full of identical looking people psychologically. Breaking this effect by actually supplying bodies and faces goes a long way to satisfying those psychological triggers you don't even know are in play. Other games got around this with head morphs and size alterations. This reduces but does not eliminate the uncanny valley effect when you see a Chinese head on a northern European archetype body. Having full independent actors allows for a great deal of on-screen visual feedback without much work especially when it's effectively a % based calculation like body morph sliders as detailed as CE allows. Side note.. you can also adjust this on the fly to include things like an argonian tail or butterfly wings.

    So yes.. it is an opinion but one that allows for a great deal of visual punch. If you don't care about immersion though yes its a non-factor entirely.


    ---
    I will say one thing just as a counterpoint to my own argument. FO4 did not need frame-locked animations. Fallout is mostly a gun based game. Frame locking has no functional purpose outside of melee range or scripted NPC events in the world. All other options can be done in more modern methods. FO76 absolutely does not need frame locking and it should not have been included especially considering the absolute lack of non-combat human NPCs. It HAD a purpose during the Skyrim/FO4 development cycle due to COST however and it had a purpose before that for performance reasons. Locking everything into those annoying 60 frames per second was absolutely infuriating for anyone used to FPS like gameplay I assure you I understand this point.

    I will also state that frame locking has no functional purpose beyond 2015. General CPU improvement and parallelism destroys any use since you now have the extra threads to handle all the syncing issues. Older processors are finally being phased out and the majority now have at least 4 cores(since 2017 i believe). Skyrim released in 2011.. During production, logical cores over 2 were not in high adoption. People forget this and forget that the programming difference between 2010 and 2015 is massive. back then(yes back then a few years ago) it was critical to find savings in every tiny thing you did so you could out feature the competition. FO4/Skyrim should flat out be the last generation of CE games using this method of physics rendering. I'm merely arguing that at the time of release the hate it gets is unfounded and unwarranted due to technical impossibilities.
     
  38. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ardOCP Motherboard Editor

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    My comments weren't about Fallout 4 or earlier games anyway. By your own admission, Fallout 76 didn't need it. That's the crux of my commentary anyway. Quad core CPU's have been common a lot longer than that. The Core 2 Quad Q6600 brought affordability to the mainstream. CPU's that followed were snatched up over the years. We've basically got CPU's over the last 7 or 8 years that were quad cores with Hyperthreading.
     
  39. Aireoth

    Aireoth [H]ard|Gawd

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    He's a gamebryo fanatix, best of luck.
     
  40. Nafensoriel

    Nafensoriel Limp Gawd

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    Actually, I prefer unity and possibly even lumberyard at the moment. I just have the most experience with gamebryo and plenty of friends at Bethesda.
    I frankly just got tired of gamers beating on engines period. 99% don't understand them or what they do and assume they know the magic fix that totally could have been done because Wikipedia or some youtuber says so. The damned 60fps meme is one of many that just drive my old bones up a tree.
     
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