Eyefinity and 10-bit color support

[antorsae]

Hi,

I have two HDMI 1.3 (10-bit color supported) displays.

I am considering getting an Eyefinity card but I'd like to know if Eyefinity supports this configuration:

* 10-bit color to each display (30-bit in total instead of 24-bit). I understand that the control panel says 32-bit color support however I am not sure if this is 8-bit x RGBA or it can be set to higher bit depth; especially for HDMI 1.3 and Displayport outputs.

* If the 10-bit is supported, would a Displayport to HDMI 1.3 pass the 10-bit color (RGB) to the HDMI display (I understand there is no dual HDMI version of Eyefinity out there).

Thanks - Andres

 

[magoo]

The video outputs on the GPU ( HD 5870) are : DVI x 2, Display port and HDMI.

You could not run two HDMI ports off the card unless you had a DVI to HDMI adapter.....and I'm not sure of the output of the adapters.

I do not think there is a DVI to HDMI adapter in the box with the card.

Eyefinity in it's true form is triple display of the same resolution, not dual display.

You CAN run two displays if they use different connections or even three.

 

[antorsae]

Magoo,

I wasn't thinking of using any of the two DVI ports b/c I understand DVI-D (even in double channel mode) do not support anything over 8-bit per channel color depth. I was intending to use the DisplayPort output (with either an active or passive DisplayPort to HDMI adapter) and the HDMI (1.3) output. Both HDMI 1.3 and DisplayPort support 10-bit per channel color depth; but I'd confirmation that Eyefinity can drive displays with 10-bit per channel color support.

rgs - Andres

 

[necrophile]

Your post has nothing to do with eyefinity.

It is solely to do with ati's colour depth support.

 

[antorsae]

necrophile - Eyefinity works with different output ports which each offer different color depths (DVI-D only supports 8-bit, DisplayPort I think does up to 10-bit, and HDMI 1.3 can do up to 12-bit per color...).

It's fair to ask when those are used in conjunction in an array with Eyefinity... would Eyefinity resort to the lowest common denominator (8-bit color depth for DVI-D) or if it would still support 10-bit color if using the two ports that allow 10-bit color?

 

[H-street]

a quick google search suggests its a feature of their workstation cards?

AMD’s most recent series of workstation graphics cards give full support to various types of 10-bit displays including all of the models mentioned above. The communication interface can currently be single link DVI, dual link DVI, and DisplayPort depending on the input/output ports configuration of the monitor and the graphics card. Through a proprietary packed pixel format, very high resolution grayscale medical displays can be natively supported through a single link DVI. Figure 5 demonstrates how the user can enable the 10-bit display support in the OpenGL driver by simply checking the relevant checkbox in the Catalyst™ Control Center (CCC).

http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/10-Bit.pdf

also the search returned the X1650XT product page

1 ATI is the only graphics chip maker that can display both HDR and FSAA 3D image enhancement features at the same time and is the only chip make to display 1.07 billion colors when attached to 10-bit displays.

Advanced DVI capabilities, including 10-bit, 16-bit HDR output

 

[necrophile]

No, eyefinity is utilising 3 monitors or more as one. It has nothing to do with the ports.

Running two monitors off of two different ports has always been available.

Your post has nothing to do with eyefinity, only the colur depth support of ati cards.

 

[kllrnohj]

No, eyefinity is utilising 3 monitors or more as one. It has nothing to do with the ports.

No, Eyefinity is using multiple monitors as one - two monitors can very much be in an Eyefinity configuration. But otherwise yes, the OPs post has nothing to do with Eyefinity.

 

[antorsae]

H-Street - Thanks!

Necrophile - I fully understand that Eyefinity creates a big monitor as far as the OS is concerned using more than 1 monitor to span the areas I am currently using Nvidia's horizonal span mode which is similar in concept.

I fully understand I know that you can use two monitors connected to two different ports on the card... using eyefinity or not.

 

[magoo]

Magoo,

I wasn't thinking of using any of the two DVI ports b/c I understand DVI-D (even in double channel mode) do not support anything over 8-bit per channel color depth. I was intending to use the DisplayPort output (with either an active or passive DisplayPort to HDMI adapter) and the HDMI (1.3) output. Both HDMI 1.3 and DisplayPort support 10-bit per channel color depth; but I'd confirmation that Eyefinity can drive displays with 10-bit per channel color support.

rgs - Andres

Gotcha...........I wasn't clear if you understood what you needed or if I understood what you wanted????

Looks like H-Street had the best answer for you.

Good luck.

 

[Nenu]

HDMI 1.3 and DisplayPort support up to 16 bits per colour for up to 48 bit colour.
Windows 7 supports colour management via display profiles (must be using the correct monitor driver).
So if the correct display device driver and display profile are loaded and you dont override it with say 24bit sRGB, it will be able to use the full range.
Display cards are no longer limited by the size of the DAC unless using analogue.

The hardware, driver and OS fully support it and HDMI 1.3 easily has the bandwidth but I have no idea how you tell the PC to use more than 8 bits per colour on the desktop, having never had to use a colour managed app either.
My TV supports at least 10bits/colour but I've not seen it used.

There arent even any Blu Ray films using extended gamut yet, despite xvYCC being supported by players.
However I have read many discussions of those using colour managed apps in Windows 7 just fine, so I dont doubt it will work if needed.

 

[obobski]

true 30-bit displays are rare (most TV's with higher colour depths have those as well as higher redraw rates, its all post-processing, yeah most of it rocks, but its different), I can think of a few from Barco, and the HP DreamColor (at the low price of $2k (this is not sarcasm))

you need a 30-bit output, I know Quadro FX and FireGL can support this mode, pretty sure Matrox's Parhelia can do it as well (they can process it internally at least...), not really sure on Radeon or GeForce and 30-bit support, the HD 4800 series claims internal 30-bit processing (much like Parhelia), but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll drive 30bpp out even with DP (and 5870 is much in the same boat)

http://www.amd.com/us/products/desk.../Pages/ati-radeon-hd-5870-specifications.aspx

doesn't really say much, for example

whereas they're pretty blunt with FirePro:
http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/ati-firepro-3d/v8750/Pages/v8750-specs.aspx


ultimately you're looking at about $4000 just for monitors here (if not more), so perhaps FirePro or Quadro FX isn't entirely out of the question (if $4k into two monitors isn't a problem, another $1500+ into a graphics adapter probably isn't either), Quadro FX can render to two monitors at once, so can FirePro, you don't need Eyefinity for that, so that could very well work for you, do note that gaming performance with both Quadro FX and FirePro is going to be somewhat less than their GeForce and Radeon counterparts, although if the price of 2 10bpp monitors isn't a thing, I doubt you really care about losing 2% performance to have TF2 or whatever else running 10bpp (on a side note, I'm not certain that all games will actually support 10bpp rendering)

do note, your monitors may just be HDMI 1.3 compliant, but not necessarily native 10bpp (and I'd hate for you to spend $1500+ on a graphics adapter only to learn that its just marketed specs and a dithering engine on a TV)

 

[Nenu]

fyi the TV is a Panasonic 42PZ80B plasma.
It is HDMI 1.3a compliant, they claim 5,120 shades of gradation which I'm forced to assume must be shades per colour as I cant think of another way to sensibly apply it.
This makes it better than 12bits/colour and its pretty cheap, approx $1200 (£750) if you pay the same as in the UK, I hear its cheaper in the US.

Hopefully the card mfrs will just enable higher bit depth on gaming cards, its only prevented by the driver.

 

[obobski]

fyi the TV is a Panasonic 42PZ80B plasma.
It is HDMI 1.3a compliant, they claim 5,120 shades of gradation which I'm forced to assume must be shades per colour as I cant think of another way to sensibly apply it.
This makes it better than 12bits/colour and its pretty cheap, approx $1200 (£750) if you pay the same as in the UK, I hear its cheaper in the US.

hrm, I'm just curious as to the specifics inside that panel, true 10bpp displays run into the multi-thousand dollar range very quickly, I'm just skeptical

Hopefully the card mfrs will just enable higher bit depth on gaming cards, its only prevented by the driver.

no doubt (well, excepting DVI only cards)
we can only hope though, 10bpp pro cards have existed for over a decade

 

[antorsae]

Hi - FYI I have two CRT projectors and this card converts HDMI 1.3a (w/ deep color support) http://www.curtpalme.com/VIM-FULLHD.shtm into analog (which is what the CRT displays work with internally). My plan was to use the CRT PJS w/ HDMI 1.3 inputs + Eyefinity to get 30-bit color support.

 

[bexamous]

I'd confirm that it supports 10bit color input, that is pretty rare, and for a consumer tv I highly doubt it. Many LCDs/TVs will take 8bit input and run it through a 10bit processor and advertise that as a feature-- saying it displays a billion colors, but its only accepting a 8bit input. Same way we get TV's saying they display 120hz but you can't actually input 120hz.

For 30bit support you pretty much need Quadro/FireGL, you'll get an extra button in control panel to enable 30bit output.

 

[obobski]

Hi - FYI I have two CRT projectors and this card converts HDMI 1.3a (w/ deep color support) http://www.curtpalme.com/VIM-FULLHD.shtm into analog (which is what the CRT displays work with internally). My plan was to use the CRT PJS w/ HDMI 1.3 inputs + Eyefinity to get 30-bit color support.

they're unlikely to support 10bpp, just because HDMI can do it, doesn't mean the actual display element can, nor does it mean that VGA has the bandwidth to handle what you want to put across it

and for like the 90000th time, eyefinity has NOTHING to do with this

why do you even need 30-bit anyways?

I'd confirm that it supports 10bit color input, that is pretty rare, and for a consumer tv I highly doubt it. Many LCDs/TVs will take 8bit input and run it through a 10bit processor and advertise that as a feature-- saying it displays a billion colors, but its only accepting a 8bit input. Same way we get TV's saying they display 120hz but you can't actually input 120hz.

For 30bit support you pretty much need Quadro/FireGL, you'll get an extra button in control panel to enable 30bit output.

exactly what I was thinking, there are other adapters that support 30-bit, none of them modern though
oh, it should be noted: Quadro FX/CX, and FirePro or FireGL

 

[antorsae]

Can anybody with an Eyefinity and Windows 7 check if A2R10G10B10 shows under "Resolutions" using http://www.kludx.com/kludx.php ?

Thanks.

 

[obobski]

Can anybody with an Eyefinity and Windows 7 check if A2R10G10B10 shows under "Resolutions" using http://www.kludx.com/kludx.php ?

Thanks.

so now you're just going to ignore any advice or reason and keep squawking for "I need Eyefinity 30-bit", without listening to any of the information being provided to you

just because you re-word and re-ask the question 300 times, doesn't mean that you're going to somehow change your hardware's abilities

 

[antorsae]

why do you even need 30-bit anyways?

I am running my two CRT projectors in an edge-blended configuration and there is banding that can be avoided when using higher than 24-bit color depth. It's not a "I want 30-bits" for the sake of it request, but in my setup I can benefit from it.

just because you re-word and re-ask the question 300 times, doesn't mean that you're going to somehow change your hardware's abilities

First, it's not my hardware - I am planning to buy the card but I'd like to know if somebody that has the card can run a test beforehand so I don't buy the card only to find out that 30-bit is not supported in the configuration I am planning to use.

don't understand why you say 30-bit support in Eyefinity is a moot question. If consumer-level ATI cards e.g. 5770 support 30-bit color, that doesn't mean it's supported in Eyefinity when using two displays in a side by side stack configuration; especially when these two displays are connected using two distinct interfaces (HDMI and DP).

Incidentally, there are some reports that 30-bit support is already for ATI cards (see this); but I am not 100% sure and I was seeking confirmation of this when Eyefinity is enabled.

 

[obobski]

I am running my two CRT projectors in an edge-blended configuration and there is banding that can be avoided when using higher than 24-bit color depth. It's not a "I want 30-bits" for the sake of it request, but in my setup I can benefit from it.

24-bit color will not have visible color banding, I'm wondering if your displays aren't dithering to 256 color or similar, with 24-bit (as in 8bpp) output, you should not see any dithering unless the input source is not up to snuff

don't understand why you say 30-bit support in Eyefinity is a moot question. If consumer-level ATI cards e.g. 5770 support 30-bit color, that doesn't mean it's supported in Eyefinity when using two displays in a side by side stack configuration; especially when these two displays are connected using two distinct interfaces (HDMI and DP).

Incidentally, there are some reports that 30-bit support is already for ATI cards (see this); but I am not 100% sure and I was seeking confirmation of this when Eyefinity is enabled.

your query is unrelated to Eyefinity, its simply dual monitor support, any graphics adapter from the last 10 years can drive two monitors, Eyefinity is not required, and most of those adapters can render into dual monitors just as easily, so there is no relationship there

as far as the X1650, as H-Street said, has documented 30-bit support (which is all your link confirms), that doesn't seem to extend elsewhere, at least no documented specs for the HD 5--- boards supports the notion of 30-bit output support (and I'm pretty sure thats a feature they'd mention in specs)

this leads me to wonder if you even read the thread

 

[Nenu]

hrm, I'm just curious as to the specifics inside that panel, true 10bpp displays run into the multi-thousand dollar range very quickly, I'm just skeptical

The full specs are in the first post here:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/home...asonic-viera-2008-product-details-plasma.html

Colour reproduction exceeding the HDTV standard
Wide Colour Gamut Panel with x.v.Colour
VIERA's large colour space covers 110% of the HDTV colour standard. This wide gamut has been achieved by an advanced panel structure and newly developed filter, and also produces richer, more vivid colouring from x.v.Colour signals.
*Only PZ800, PZ85, PZ/80 Series

Smooth gradation lends natural expression to images
5,120 Equivalent Steps of Gradation
A full 5,120 equivalent steps of gradation smoothly expresses each image. Outstanding gradation performance accurately depicts even the tiniest shades of colour in a sunset. It also supports the Deep Colour ( HDMITM V.1.3 ) standard, which is capable of expressing natural colours, to maximize the beautiful images of high-quality image sources.

Theres a clue in there on how it works, "produces richer, more vivid colouring from x.v.Colour signals".
It looks like the wide gamut data is transmitted using a different protocol

 

[obobski]

sounds like it just re-processes it, just like 120hz LCDs process the image, they haven't explicitly said 10bpp, may even accept the input and dither it down

I have no doubt it does color very well, but I'm just skeptical of its actual ability to draw 10bpp at 100hz (That would be incredibly impressive, so much so that it would easily be a better choice than a number of professional grade workstation monitors for a number of uses)

they're also claiming some 6000 "equivalent steps of gradation" on the newer model of that display, which adds to my skepticism

 

[Nenu]

sounds like it just re-processes it, just like 120hz LCDs process the image, they haven't explicitly said 10bpp, may even accept the input and dither it down

It says "Wide Colour Gamut Panel with x.v.Colour".
They may be lying, but if not, its native to the panel.

I have no doubt it does color very well, but I'm just skeptical of its actual ability to draw 10bpp at 100hz (That would be incredibly impressive, so much so that it would easily be a better choice than a number of professional grade workstation monitors for a number of uses)

Its a 60Hz TV that doubles each frame to give 100Hz (UK) / 120Hz (US) for TV, no 120Hz input.

 

[obobski]

It says "Wide Colour Gamut Panel with x.v.Colour".
They may be lying, but if not, its native to the panel.



Its a 60Hz TV that doubles each frame to give 120Hz for TV, no 120Hz input.

"Flicker-less, easy-to-see images
100Hz Double ScanA Plasma TV driven at 50Hz can cause an annoying flicker due to a shortage in the number of pictures displayed per second. Therefore, each picture is displayed twice as if the Plasma TV is driven at 100Hz Double Scan, i.e., the number of pictures displayed is increased to avoid any flickering.
* When IFC is operating, 100Hz double scan cannot be used"

^ hence 100hz comment

as far as the color, it can be wide gamut and not support anything over 24-bit, and simply process deepcolor (thats what every other TV that claims deepcolor does, there are no true 48-bit displays, for example), I have no reason to believe otherwise until I see objective data beyond a press release (I'm really not trying to discredit you, but knowing that its a TV, and not a monstrously expensive TV at that; a 10bpp 24" desktop monitor costs about twice this thing, and thats considered cheap)

 

[Nenu]

Reasonable argument.
If it really is 24bit + extended gamut, there would need to be some form of colour conversion to suit video sources with properly extended gamut and bit ranges.
I wonder if this is automatic on the TV or if the video source will need to provide for the TVs gamut standard.

 

[obobski]

Reasonable argument.
If it really is 24bit + extended gamut, there would need to be some form of colour conversion to suit video sources with properly extended gamut and bit ranges.
I wonder if this is automatic on the TV or if the video source will need to provide for the TVs gamut standard.

"both"
deepcolor sources, like Blu-ray players, have all sorts of magic behind the scenes, and the TV itself has all sorts of voodoo inside of it to accomplish a great many things

bring it together, and it looks good for watching movies, but I doubt if you could calibrate it in-line with something like DreamColor or anything from Barco

 

[Anemone]

First - you may be looking for the terms "30 bit display support" which is referenced in the Dell M6500 workstation notebook. Quadro and FireGL support it.

However, another block in the road is that even if the OS supports it (you must have a correct driver) and the card supports it (Pro level card), you'll also need software that supports it as well. So anything you are going to send to this display will have to come from 30 bit output aware software. That does not include most media players sadly, but rather professional level rendering software.

What I'll bet you run into, is that even should you manage to get the cards, the outputs (HDMI on most consumer cards is usually 1.2, not 1.3) and the OS all to work, you'll get stifled by having output software the can render in 30 bit. This is where most consumers get trapped. The TV can support HDMI 1.3 and 30 bit, but the playing software cannot.

 

[antorsae]

Anemone - Thanks for the insight.

I am using the latest build of MPC-HC which supports 30-bit processing and output. Part of the reason I need this is b/c I have customized the source code to do edge blending and gamma correction via pixel shaders and 10-bit (per channel) helps minimize banding.

 

[obobski]

First - you may be looking for the terms "30 bit display support" which is referenced in the Dell M6500 workstation notebook. Quadro and FireGL support it.

However, another block in the road is that even if the OS supports it (you must have a correct driver) and the card supports it (Pro level card), you'll also need software that supports it as well. So anything you are going to send to this display will have to come from 30 bit output aware software. That does not include most media players sadly, but rather professional level rendering software.

What I'll bet you run into, is that even should you manage to get the cards, the outputs (HDMI on most consumer cards is usually 1.2, not 1.3) and the OS all to work, you'll get stifled by having output software the can render in 30 bit. This is where most consumers get trapped. The TV can support HDMI 1.3 and 30 bit, but the playing software cannot.

it can support dithered color, not 10bpp on the panel/display element
its different (its a TV)

very large 10bpp displays (40" or bigger) are very expensive and somewhat rare

Anemone - Thanks for the insight.

I am using the latest build of MPC-HC which supports 30-bit processing and output. Part of the reason I need this is b/c I have customized the source code to do edge blending and gamma correction via pixel shaders and 10-bit (per channel) helps minimize banding.

and I've told you once and will tell you again, 24-bit color does not produce banding, you DO NOT NEED billions of colors to "help minimize" banding, 8bpp is real enough, 10bpp is just a benefit for artists/modelers (more or less), I would strongly suggest you look through your hardware and software configuration and try to troubleshoot this logically

that said, as I have also told you about four times now (and four to five other users have told you at least once each), your only options here are FirePro/FireGL or QuadroFX/CX