External HD or NAS for backups?

[LittleMike]

Hey all,

I have a 500GB external MyBook that I use for backup purposes. As of right now I back up on an individual file/folder basis. I was considering utilizing Vista Ultimate's built in imaging backup tool to just make one snapshot of my main computer, but I find that I've almost run out of space on the external.

So here's the dilemma. I was considering just buying a 1TB external and calling it a day but then I got to thinking about NAS and/or an HP WHS. I can get a 1TB external for around 200, but it has no redundancy. Of course I could get 2x 1TB externals and just copy from one to the other for redundancy but that would take a long time. My problem with a WHS is that they are expensive (cheapest I saw was $400 or so and that only included a 500GB drive and 512MB of RAM).

So what do you think my best options would be? Should I stick with external drives and just go with a 1TB one, or should I look into purchasing a WHS? Any advice would be appreciated.

Ockie, you have one of the HP WHS, right? What advantage would it have over using an external like I do now?

 

[LittleMike]

bump!

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Basically the question boils down to this - what's better for semi-frequent backups - an external hard drive or something like a Windows Home Server?

 

[Dangman]

Redundancy/RAID != backup

Anyway, with a WHS setup, you have a file server in addition to a backup server. Pretty useful if you want to acess your data but don't or can't access your PC.

But with an external hard drive, you can keep it offsite or at least in a different room for safety.

Personally I use both.

 

[DonDon]

Well, it depends on what you need to do with your data.

If you are just concerned about backing up the data from 1 computer, then external hard drives are the way to go. Buy 2, and alternate them when you back up so you are not overwriting your last good backup with your current one. During a backup is a very common time to find problems with your data since it is the only time where all of your data gets read. You do not want to find that your corrupted file just overwrote your only good copy in the middle of a backup.

If you have more than 1 computer (I am operating 6 in my house right now) then a Network Attached Storage device is the way to go. While they vary in their abilities, basically you are adding a small file server to your network to share your data. It is kinda pointless to buy a NAS if you only have one computer.

While many NAS boxes allow RAID1 (2 drive models) or Raid 5 (3 or more drives) no level of RAID is adequate replacement for a separate copy of your data.

I am currently adjusting my storage system. I am migrating to a 3 (eventually 5) drive RAID 5 NAS. I will be doing auto backups of the important data (music, photos, and documents) to a 2 drive RAID 1 NAS. (3 copies so far.) Whenever I download photos, I grab a copy of the photo folder and copy it to the data partition on my main system. (4 copies.) And every 2 or 3 weeks, I copy the important data to 2 external USB drives that I rotate. (6 copies of the important stuff.)

Now, while it would be possible to backup my alternative entertainment files, it is not important enough for me to spend the money to do that. I would just have to download new stuff if my main RAID 5 ever were to die.

I am slightly more paranoid than the average person around here, but after having spent the last 25 years in the electronics repair industry, I have seen more than my share of multiple hardware failures, corrupted data, failed backups, and stupid users. Besides, it would prolly cost me a NAD or 2 if I ever lost all of the family photos. My boys are important to me.

Don

 

[LittleMike]

Redundancy/RAID != backup

Anyway, with a WHS setup, you have a file server in addition to a backup server. Pretty useful if you want to acess your data but don't or can't access your PC.

But with an external hard drive, you can keep it offsite or at least in a different room for safety.

Personally I use both.

Hey Danny,

I know that RAID is not equal to backup. I'm just curious why you mentioned that. I already have a webserver running Server 2003 on it, so I was debating whether or not it's overkill to run yet another server as a file server. Obviously an external is more portable, but what would you say would be the advantage of a WHS over an external drive?

Also I'm a little confused - you say a WHS is useful if I want to access my data but don't or can't access my PC. I'm just trying to picture a situation where I would have my server available but not my main computer. You mean if it's down? Basically the server would keep backups, not "live" data. At least, that's what I had in mind.

 

[LittleMike]

Well, it depends on what you need to do with your data.

If you are just concerned about backing up the data from 1 computer, then external hard drives are the way to go. Buy 2, and alternate them when you back up so you are not overwriting your last good backup with your current one. During a backup is a very common time to find problems with your data since it is the only time where all of your data gets read. You do not want to find that your corrupted file just overwrote your only good copy in the middle of a backup.

If you have more than 1 computer (I am operating 6 in my house right now) then a Network Attached Storage device is the way to go. While they vary in their abilities, basically you are adding a small file server to your network to share your data. It is kinda pointless to buy a NAS if you only have one computer.

While many NAS boxes allow RAID1 (2 drive models) or Raid 5 (3 or more drives) no level of RAID is adequate replacement for a separate copy of your data.

I am currently adjusting my storage system. I am migrating to a 3 (eventually 5) drive RAID 5 NAS. I will be doing auto backups of the important data (music, photos, and documents) to a 2 drive RAID 1 NAS. (3 copies so far.) Whenever I download photos, I grab a copy of the photo folder and copy it to the data partition on my main system. (4 copies.) And every 2 or 3 weeks, I copy the important data to 2 external USB drives that I rotate. (6 copies of the important stuff.)

Now, while it would be possible to backup my alternative entertainment files, it is not important enough for me to spend the money to do that. I would just have to download new stuff if my main RAID 5 ever were to die.

I am slightly more paranoid than the average person around here, but after having spent the last 25 years in the electronics repair industry, I have seen more than my share of multiple hardware failures, corrupted data, failed backups, and stupid users. Besides, it would prolly cost me a NAD or 2 if I ever lost all of the family photos. My boys are important to me.

Don

Don, thank you. That was a very informative post. Right now I have 3 machines that I use on a semi-regular basis. I have my main rig that's in my sig, I have a webserver running Server 2003 that serves as my test bed for various webdesign/web applications, and I have my laptop for when I want to sit on the porch on a nice day. I do plan on building an HTPC in the near future as well.

However, given all that, I'm mostly concerned about what's on the main machine more than the other 2. The webserver, I hardly ever backup as most of the stuff I keep on it is volatile and doesn't stay on it long enough for me to care. The laptop is kind of like Main Rig Lite®. Haha. Meaning I have some of the same apps on it that I have on my main machine, but it's really just a watered down portable version, so I don't really keep important stuff on it.

So again, that brings me back to mainly being concerned with backing up my primary machine.

As it stands right now, my 500gig external is about full. There are plenty of things that I keep on it for archival purposes that aren't on my main machine, but only because I just built this new machine in May and it would take too long to copy most of the stuff from the external onto it. I can kind of see having a file server for that, but to me it seems like overkill when I can keep doing what I'm doing.

So it sounds to me like the best option for me would be to get 2 external drives. Does that sound like a fair assessment?

 

[cameron122000]

Personally, I wouldn't purchase a NAS box if that's the way you end up going. You can build/repurpose an older computer and use it as a NAS. It will end up much cheaper than it would be to go out and buy one of those HP WHS NAS boxes and replace the drives with larger ones. Plus, the computer you build will definitely be faster and be able to do more things. Upgrades in the future will be easier as well.

I had an HTPC I built whose motherboard's onboard sound wasn't working, so I went ahead and used that to build a NAS for about $200 total after buying hard drives since I already had some parts. Now, I can use it for my backups as well as torrenting, a web server, FTP server, etc.

 

[LittleMike]

Personally, I wouldn't purchase a NAS box if that's the way you end up going. You can build/repurpose an older computer and use it as a NAS. It will end up much cheaper than it would be to go out and buy one of those HP WHS NAS boxes and replace the drives with larger ones. Plus, the computer you build will definitely be faster and be able to do more things. Upgrades in the future will be easier as well.

I had an HTPC I built whose motherboard's onboard sound wasn't working, so I went ahead and used that to build a NAS for about $200 total after buying hard drives since I already had some parts. Now, I can use it for my backups as well as torrenting, a web server, FTP server, etc.

I'm thinking that 2 external drives might be better for me. However, I *do* already have that web server. Maybe I should upgrade it to server 2003? It's on some real old hardware, though.

With the money I would spend to even upgrade the existing server, though, it still might be a better idea to go with the externals

 

[DonDon]

Don, thank you. That was a very informative post. Right now I have 3 machines that I use on a semi-regular basis. I have my main rig that's in my sig, I have a webserver running Server 2003 that serves as my test bed for various webdesign/web applications, and I have my laptop for when I want to sit on the porch on a nice day. I do plan on building an HTPC in the near future as well.

However, given all that, I'm mostly concerned about what's on the main machine more than the other 2. The webserver, I hardly ever backup as most of the stuff I keep on it is volatile and doesn't stay on it long enough for me to care. The laptop is kind of like Main Rig Lite®. Haha. Meaning I have some of the same apps on it that I have on my main machine, but it's really just a watered down portable version, so I don't really keep important stuff on it.

So again, that brings me back to mainly being concerned with backing up my primary machine.

As it stands right now, my 500gig external is about full. There are plenty of things that I keep on it for archival purposes that aren't on my main machine, but only because I just built this new machine in May and it would take too long to copy most of the stuff from the external onto it. I can kind of see having a file server for that, but to me it seems like overkill when I can keep doing what I'm doing.

So it sounds to me like the best option for me would be to get 2 external drives. Does that sound like a fair assessment?

Yep, that sounds like a good plan for now. You can buy a lot more USB storage for your money than NAS/WHS storage. It's just that the NAS/WHS storage is just more flexible.

If I was in your shoes, here is what I would do.

Buy a 1 TB USB drive. Use that to make whole system backups of your main rig. Then, any critical or hard to replace data can be backed up to your current 500 gig drive. Later on, after you get your HTPC online, and you realise you need more storage, then you can get some kind of NAS/WHS system, and use your existing USB drives to continue to backup your more critical data.

Mark my words, HTPCs can consume enormous amounts of drive space, specially if you are saving stuff in HD format.

My standard def Directivo has a 500 gig HD in it which we keep full. I have a Directv HD DVR (it is no TIVO) (It is mostly here to watch football in HD, go Bears) with a 250 gig hd that we keep full. I have a second Directivo with a 160 gig hd that we keep full.

We could watch TV for a couple of months off of our recorded stuff. And I aint near as hard core as some of the people that haunt these forums.

Don

 

[DonDon]

I'm thinking that 2 external drives might be better for me. However, I *do* already have that web server. Maybe I should upgrade it to server 2003? It's on some real old hardware, though.

With the money I would spend to even upgrade the existing server, though, it still might be a better idea to go with the externals

Is your web server inside your firewall? What are you using it for?

If you are already running a server on your LAN, then you can either just add oem drives to your server and do anything you want, or purchase usb drives and plug them into your server and do anything you want. I can't think of anything WHS can do that Server 2003 wouldn't be able to do with a little research and tweaking.

Don

 

[LittleMike]

Is your web server inside your firewall? What are you using it for?

If you are already running a server on your LAN, then you can either just add oem drives to your server and do anything you want, or purchase usb drives and plug them into your server and do anything you want. I can't think of anything WHS can do that Server 2003 wouldn't be able to do with a little research and tweaking.

Don

What do you mean by inside my firewall? They are both on the same router, if that's what you mean. I don't use a hardware firewall. NAT on even a regular retail Linksys is more than enough to stop most hackers. I don't DMZ my address, but aside from that, I really don't worry about anyone getting in.

 

[DonDon]

What do you mean by inside my firewall? They are both on the same router, if that's what you mean. I don't use a hardware firewall. NAT on even a regular retail Linksys is more than enough to stop most hackers. I don't DMZ my address, but aside from that, I really don't worry about anyone getting in.

Right, as long as your current server is protected from direct access from the internet, other than web services, then you should be able to use it for your storage needs.

Why are you running a web server?

If you have room inside your server case, then internal HDs there would be your best bet for expanded storage. Otherwise, external drives plugged into your existing server would serve you well.

Don

 

[LittleMike]

Right, as long as your current server is protected from direct access from the internet, other than web services, then you should be able to use it for your storage needs.

Why are you running a web server?

If you have room inside your server case, then internal HDs there would be your best bet for expanded storage. Otherwise, external drives plugged into your existing server would serve you well.

Don

Gotcha. That's what I figured you meant. Honestly, I'm not running an empire out of my house, so I never really thought I had a need for hardcore firewall devices.

As far as why I'm running a webserver, as I said, I use it for a testbed. Occasionally I'll get a freelance job to do webdesign for someone, so I build it on that box in a subdirectory off of my main website so that there's a "live" site that the client can view. Though nowadays I mostly just use it to host images for personal use. Plus proof of concept. Everything I know about domains, AD, DHCP, DNS, and anything else a decent server admin knows I taught myself. That's one of the reasons I first built it.

It's actually desktop hardware that I cobbled together, but I may have room for another drive or two in there. It's old hardware, though. All IDE drives, and a P4 CPU on it. Like I said, it's mainly an image server/test bed. I was considering swiping an old PowerEdge from work that we decommissioned, though. I wonder if it's still lying around. Haha.

 

[roaf85]

Personally, I wouldn't purchase a NAS box if that's the way you end up going. You can build/repurpose an older computer and use it as a NAS. It will end up much cheaper than it would be to go out and buy one of those HP WHS NAS boxes and replace the drives with larger ones. Plus, the computer you build will definitely be faster and be able to do more things. Upgrades in the future will be easier as well.

I had an HTPC I built whose motherboard's onboard sound wasn't working, so I went ahead and used that to build a NAS for about $200 total after buying hard drives since I already had some parts. Now, I can use it for my backups as well as torrenting, a web server, FTP server, etc.

Most NAS boxes without a hard drive now a days are around that price point you suggested (ie: 200 dollars).

Not to mention the time you save to set up a NAS box and the power savings that no one takes into consideration.

Even a low power computer is still going to cost on avg. around 40 dollars more per year to run 24/7 than your NAS box.

 

[LittleMike]

Most NAS boxes without a hard drive now a days are around that price point you suggested (ie: 200 dollars).

Not to mention the time you save to set up a NAS box and the power savings that no one takes into consideration.

Even a low power computer is still going to cost on avg. around 40 dollars more per year to run 24/7 than your NAS box.

What about 2 externals, though? They should be the cheapest to buy and to run, no? Any suggestions as to brands?

 

[Bookmage]

Since my data is important, I implement the LOCKSS method- Lots Of Copies-Keep Stuff Safe. First determine and assign levels of importance to data. Then backup accordingly. For my most Critical data, I store on my 4 drive ReadyNAS, an encrypted laptop, main file server, an external 3.5 drive, external 2.5 drive kept off site (work or friends place), 2 x external thumb drive, and dual layer DVDRWs.
I also do have old copies of stuff on dvdrws, cdr/rws, and some zip drives. everything else gets back upped to my big fileservers and external drive enclosures that i picked up on ebay for cheap.

In ur case, I would throw a big internal hard drive into that webserver and hook up an external usb if it has usb2. U could also pick some sata or esata pci cards to throw into and add additional esata externals. They do make multibay esata drive enclosures that can fit 1-4+ sata drives. This could give u redundancy and room for future expansion.
I started with a couple of internal sata drives in a spare pc with external usb drives for the 2nd backsups. Then I moved to a nas when the price was right and reused the hard drives. Im waiting for the promise 4 bay nas to go on sale and then Im picking up another one to use for another backup. its all about ur time and money... do wutever provides the most backups that requires the least amount of maintenance. backups need to be easy to do/repeat and recover.