External DAC v Internal Soundcard v Reciever

E

EndersShadow

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
1,228
So I am looking to find and possibly repair the weakest link in my modest 2 channel/office setup. Currently I am running Infinity Primus 162's as my speakers, a Denon 1610 as my reciever/DAC and getting the music via HDMI from a ATI 5450 card that is sending either WMA lossless audio (from CD's I ripped) or Pandora.

I am wondering if I would see more of a benefit from:

1) Going with a good internal soundcard (like the HT Omega Claro) and sending the signal out via RCA's to the Denon or Yamaha

2) Going with a cheap internal soundcard (like this) to send signal out via Coaxial or SPDIF (mobo board headers for this are broke) to an external DAC (like the AMC DAC-8 to the Denon or Yamaha

3) Not touching anything as the DAC in the Denon is fine.....

Option 3 is obviously the cheapest as I dont have to do anything, but I am trying to work my way up the audio chain to build a nice little rig and dont know if the DAC's in the Denon are up to par with either a nice internal soundcard's DAC, or an external DAC.

Option 2 would cost me ~120 so its still cheaper than Option 1...

Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated...
 
Very good question.
I would scrap option 2 as digital is digital, a cheap sound card will do nothing.
So that leaves us with 1 or 3 and i'm not really sure what the DAC in the receiver is like, not familiar with the Denon series, however i have an Onkyo (cheap Denon) so i went an bought an Asus Xonar Essence STX for the DAC, so much improvement its insane.
It really depends on DAC vs DAC, google, read up and compare is my advice.
 
Rossi~ said:
Very good question.
I would scrap option 2 as digital is digital, a cheap sound card will do nothing.
So that leaves us with 1 or 3 and i'm not really sure what the DAC in the receiver is like, not familiar with the Denon series, however i have an Onkyo (cheap Denon) so i went an bought an Asus Xonar Essence STX for the DAC, so much improvement its insane.
It really depends on DAC vs DAC, google, read up and compare is my advice.
Click to expand...

Option 2 puts a external DAC between the computer and reciever using digital to ship the signal which I assume is then modified by the external DAC (cant find a decently cheap soundcard w/ coaxial on it for some reason). Am I wrong on that assumption?
 
EndersShadow said:
Option 2 puts a external DAC between the computer and reciever using digital to ship the signal which I assume is then modified by the external DAC (cant find a decently cheap soundcard w/ coaxial on it for some reason). Am I wrong on that assumption?
Click to expand...

Wait.... i'm a fucking retard. I didn't read the post properly :rolleyes: i do apologise. Option 2 is a completely vaild option, though could be a pricey one to find a decent external DAC as that AMC DAC8 doesn't look all that great, though there are a lot to choose from out there. Would you want it to amp the signal, maybe use it as a headphone amp as well?

I personally as i have experienced it myself, go for the decent sound card option as it's simple, and saves having something seperate to the PC. The HT Omega Claro gets damn good reviews as well, it's a nice card.
 
I think the DAC in the Denon is probably fine. Its not the Burr-Brown PCM-1791 they use in the higher end models but probably gives pretty good sound. I doubt you would hear much of a difference with an external DAC using the Primus speakers. Better speakers would give you a bigger return for your money.

However, if you want to add an external DAC dont worry about the sound card. Get a good DAC with a USB interface like a Cambridge Audio DacMagic or a Music Fidelity V-DAC.
 
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
@malacoda

I'd avoid using at least the DacMagic with USB. Over regular spdif or toslink it does fine, but USB tends to produce significant amounts of jitter in measurements. Stereophile's measurements showed this. Otherwise it measures very well and comparable to a Benchmark DAC1.

-DacMagic owner ;)
 
Rossi~ said:
Wait.... i'm a fucking retard. I didn't read the post properly :rolleyes: i do apologise. Option 2 is a completely vaild option, though could be a pricey one to find a decent external DAC as that AMC DAC8 doesn't look all that great, though there are a lot to choose from out there. Would you want it to amp the signal, maybe use it as a headphone amp as well?

I personally as i have experienced it myself, go for the decent sound card option as it's simple, and saves having something seperate to the PC. The HT Omega Claro gets damn good reviews as well, it's a nice card.
Click to expand...

The reason for the AMC DAC8 was the price it was offered to me at (100). Regarding amping the signal, if it did that would be great, but if not I can always use my fathers old Yamaha CR-240 to amp the signal (while only 30 wpc @ 8ohms it seems to really do good with powering speakers) but I would need to ship it via analog since that stereo reciever can only do analog.......

Headphones I dont really use but would be a nice feature to have....

If I purchased the DAC I would probably use the Yamaha and sell the Denon since it would be redundant at that point (while it has a higher WPC who knows how accurate it actually is).

Then add in the PSW125 from my main rig once I upgrade to a SVS PC-12NSD downstairs.

malacoda said:
I think the DAC in the Denon is probably fine. Its not the Burr-Brown PCM-1791 they use in the higher end models but probably gives pretty good sound. I doubt you would hear much of a difference with an external DAC using the Primus speakers. Better speakers would give you a bigger return for your money.

However, if you want to add an external DAC dont worry about the sound card. Get a good DAC with a USB interface like a Cambridge Audio DacMagic or a Music Fidelity V-DAC.
Click to expand...

Both those DAC's are waaay outside my possible price range.
 
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
@Shike

I think jitter is over hyped. When you look at the measurements from stereophile they are measuring jitter in pico seconds and most of the research I have seen doesn't show any affects from jitter until several hundred nano seconds.

Im curious if you have used the usb interface on your dac magic and you can a difference? I have a friend with the Music Fidelity DAC that he runs it thru usb and I think it sounds very nice. I have run my DAC thru usb and I dont hear a difference


http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/50/_pdf
Audio professionals and semi-professionals
participated in the experiments. They were allowed to
use their own listening environments and their favorite
sound materials. The results indicate that the threshold for
random jitter on program materials is several hundreds ns
for well-trained listeners under their preferable listening
conditions. The threshold values seem to be sufficiently
larger than the jitter actually observed in various consumer
products.
 
You are honestly not going to hear a difference with an external DAC over using one in a receiver. At all. Not even slightly. Either have an analog output from a good sound card or output digital from onboard to something that takes S/PDIF input. Actually, even onboard analog can be just fine in some cases. It depends on how well the motherboard manufacturer did in isolating the audio circuits from potential noise.
 
As someone who's more of a music/audio enthusiast than a PC one; what I'll say to you is that I strongly recommend option (3). Save yourself the money.

Also as a fyi, a DAC chip costs litterally cents. It is the implementation and quality of all the connecting circutry (analogue output stage especially!) that determines the subjective SQ of an external DAC.
 
I guess here is the goal overall. I am looking to start building a nice 2 or 2.1 channel rig for my office. I want to be able to switch out smaller speakers (no floorstanding), mostly vintage Polks potentially (Monitor 5JR's, ect) & other bookshelves as I go.

I am going to be always using the computer as the source so I thought I would start with a good DAC (my Denon does not have pre-outs except for surround rears) then get a good amplification stage (2 channel amp rated for 4 ohms possibly, not sure of how much wattage I really want) and then start looking at speakers again..I am also open to a decent integrated stereo amp which could solve both the DAC and amplification stage.....

Given those goals what suggestions/improvements would you make to my gear keeping in mind I will be going piece by piece over many months (i.e. rate which ones would make the most difference)
 
No. No. No. Even if you want to spend money on that other stuff, speakers are always #1. And vintage speakers? Ugh. If they aren't Apogee or some sort of electrostatic speaker then no way.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of speakers are not good for near-field listening. I bet almost all vintage speakers will suck at it even more than they suck at anything else.
 
dandragonrage said:
No. No. No. Even if you want to spend money on that other stuff, speakers are always #1. And vintage speakers? Ugh. If they aren't Apogee or some sort of electrostatic speaker then no way.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of speakers are not good for near-field listening. I bet almost all vintage speakers will suck at it even more than they suck at anything else.
Click to expand...

So would you recommend taking a 180 degree turn and going with something like a decent PC soundcard to a set of Active Speakers (example KRK Rokit 6's) instead?
 
I like T-amps for desktops, or cheap stereo receivers. Active speakers limits your choices so much. I don't know about KRK but the M-Audios and AudioEngines that some people here use are definitely not things that I'd put on my desk.

Get your speakers and some cheap amplification. If you decide that you need a better sound card or something later (due to your onboard having too much noise or something) then you can think about it. But it's not as important as speakers. Not even close.
 
Solstice said:
As someone who's more of a music/audio enthusiast than a PC one; what I'll say to you is that I strongly recommend option (3). Save yourself the money.

Also as a fyi, a DAC chip costs litterally cents. It is the implementation and quality of all the connecting circutry (analogue output stage especially!) that determines the subjective SQ of an external DAC.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It's in our mentality to throw more gear at it, but will not improve it much.

A very very great majority of sound improvement will happen with better speaker, correct room placement and room treatment. So if you think of the entire room being the speaker you kinda get the model.

Electronics are so good now that most do a fantastic job (gains can be had, but you'll have to spend mega buck).

I'm a huge proponent to using EQ to tame speaker and room defects.
 
Ok... So here is where I think I am going to start. I am going to purchase a HT OMEGA STRIKER 7.1 (purchase date unknown). I will use the Center/Sub output via a 3.5mm to dual RCA connection for the sub. I will then manually set the crossover frequency for it.

I will use the coaxial out to the receiver via SPDIF (if using the Denon) or Y Splitter (if using the Yamaha).

Then at a later date I will be removing both of those and adding a dedicated 2 channel amp (100 wpc @ 8ohms max). Then at a later date add in a DAC if I still think I need it, and if not upgrade my speakers...

Anyone see any problems with this upgrade path or want to recommend a different soundcard?
 
malacoda said:
@Shike

I think jitter is over hyped. When you look at the measurements from stereophile they are measuring jitter in pico seconds and most of the research I have seen doesn't show any affects from jitter until several hundred nano seconds.

Im curious if you have used the usb interface on your dac magic and you can a difference? I have a friend with the Music Fidelity DAC that he runs it thru usb and I think it sounds very nice. I have run my DAC thru usb and I dont hear a difference
Click to expand...

Nope, I haven't. Even if I did I wouldn't be able to DBT which could change the results.

However, I believe it's a waste to spend more for the performance of the Dac Magic (empirically - though audibility questionable) if you're not going to use it.

At that point you might as well grab a NuForce or HRT Streamer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top