ESRB: Loot Boxes Are Not Gambling

Its kind of sad when communist China has the right take on loot boxes in video games than the "land of the free" where people aren't supposed to be oppressed or being taken advantage of. When China takes cares of its people better than America, you know things (corruption) needs fixed.

*Waits for the ignorant "if you don't like it get out" comment*
 
I despise loot boxes but IMO they are not gambling.

They are equivalent to the coin machines that would dispense plastic football helmet i collected as a kid - you'll always get one but which one was random.
Another way to look at it is playing card games like magic - buy a pack and the cards received are random

The only way to win is not to buy. PLEASE PEOPLE DO NOT BUY THESE SHITTY LOOT BOXES AND LET THEM DIE!
 
shspvr said:
Unfortunately it doesn't not meet the legal definition of true gambling your forget one very important different here with lootbox vs gambling "Note: I'm not sure about all game out there", But with gambling when you lose you get nothing in return, with lootbox you always get something and you can re-sell your items that you won for real money in return, In some game you may even be allow you trade up or common know recycle the x number of lootboxs and craft them in to new free skin items or something else, and should also point nobody is twisting your arm to buy them.
Click to expand...

If that's the case, then all casinos have to do is give $1 to the losers on the playing table - they are getting something so it's not gambling.... riiiight? Lose $2000 in a poker pot... uhh here $1, have a nice day ! NOt gambling now, right ?
 
Look at Middle-earth: Shadow of War. They push the loot boxes so hard in that game. It kinda is like gambling, just with digital loot.
 
Darkcyde said:
If that's the case, then all casinos have to do is give $1 to the losers on the playing table - they are getting something so it's not gambling.... riiiight? Lose $2000 in a poker pot... uhh here $1, have a nice day ! NOt gambling now, right ?
Click to expand...
That not the same thing Darkcyde have every play Killing Floor 2 ?.
Watch this which is more what it is all about and why some people are make a big deal over lootbox or crates.
 
Chunder said:
Its kind of sad when communist China has the right take on loot boxes in video games than the "land of the free" where people aren't supposed to be oppressed or being taken advantage of. When China takes cares of its people better than America, you know things (corruption) needs fixed.

*Waits for the ignorant "if you don't like it get out" comment*
Click to expand...
Wait a moment bub. How in the hell are loot crates in a video game oppression? And yes if you think China is better go there. You won't last long...
 
Chunder said:
Its kind of sad when communist China has the right take on loot boxes in video games than the "land of the free" where people aren't supposed to be oppressed or being taken advantage of. When China takes cares of its people better than America, you know things (corruption) needs fixed.

*Waits for the ignorant "if you don't like it get out" comment*
Click to expand...
GoldenTiger said:
Wait a moment bub. How in the hell are loot crates in a video game oppression? And yes if you think China is better go there. You won't last long...
Click to expand...

That and China's a state-capitalist oligarchy, not communist at all except in name.
 
travisty said:
I despise loot boxes but IMO they are not gambling.

They are equivalent to the coin machines that would dispense plastic football helmet i collected as a kid - you'll always get one but which one was random.
Another way to look at it is playing card games like magic - buy a pack and the cards received are random

The only way to win is not to buy. PLEASE PEOPLE DO NOT BUY THESE SHITTY LOOT BOXES AND LET THEM DIE!
Click to expand...

You get some physical that you can trade. Not so with Loot Boxes. If the system within allowed one to trade, I'd agree with you. You can literally spend money and get a duplicate. Thus, you end up with nothing. Whereas, on Steam you might get an inventory item that you can trade for something else or sell like a physical good.

Anything that features a paid Loot Box should be rated AO.
 
gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
  1. 1.
    play games of chance for money; bet.
    "she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
    synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game;
    informalplay the ponies
    "he started to gamble more often"
    • bet (a sum of money) on a game of chance.
      "he was gambling every penny he had on the spin of a wheel"
  2. 2.
    take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
    "the British could only gamble that something would turn up"
    synonyms: take a chance, take a risk; More
    informalstick one's neck out, go out on a limb
    "investors are gambling that the British pound will fall"


Lootboxes sure do sound like gambling to me
 
krotch said:
gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
  1. 1.
    play games of chance for money; bet.
    "she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
    synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game;
    informalplay the ponies
    "he started to gamble more often"
    • bet (a sum of money) on a game of chance.
      "he was gambling every penny he had on the spin of a wheel"
  2. 2.
    take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
    "the British could only gamble that something would turn up"
    synonyms: take a chance, take a risk; More
    informalstick one's neck out, go out on a limb
    "investors are gambling that the British pound will fall"


Lootboxes sure do sound like gambling to me
Click to expand...
Just one small issues there bud with Lootbox or Crate you always win in real gambling you don't.
If you had the video I posted it more about pay to win not gambling.
 
shspvr said:
Just one small issues there bud with Lootbox or Crate you always win in real gambling you don't.
If you had the video I posted it more about pay to win not gambling.
Click to expand...

Show me in the definition that says you have to get something back or don't have to get something back. All they say is you're betting on something or taking a risky action in hope of a desired result.

I play Overwatch. I only like getting Mei items. If I plop down $10 bucks on a bunch of loot boxes and get zero Mei items, but get other random stuff I don't care about. That's gambling.

If I walk into a casino. I put $1 into a slot machine for a chance to win $5k. That dollar is gone to have my chance to play. I end up winning 50 cents. So I got something back. Does that mean I didn't do "real" gambling? That's not even an impossible occurrence. That happens every single second in the casinos. Whether you get something or not, you're gambling.
 
shspvr said:
Just one small issues there bud with Lootbox or Crate you always win in real gambling you don't.
If you had the video I posted it more about pay to win not gambling.
Click to expand...

The definition of gambling is a game of chance. With loot boxes you have a chance of getting a high end rare item or shit gray filler items.
 
krotch said:
Show me in the definition that says you have to get something back or don't have to get something back. All they say is you're betting on something or taking a risky action in hope of a desired result.

I play Overwatch. I only like getting Mei items. If I plop down $10 bucks on a bunch of loot boxes and get zero Mei items, but get other random stuff I don't care about. That's gambling.

If I walk into a casino. I put $1 into a slot machine for a chance to win $5k. That dollar is gone to have my chance to play. I end up winning 50 cents. So I got something back. Does that mean I didn't do "real" gambling? That's not even an impossible occurrence. That happens every single second in the casinos. Whether you get something or not, you're gambling.
Click to expand...
So if in Overwatch you purchase loot boxes and your receiving zero items with boxes ever now and then that you purchase from them then yes that is 100% gambling then you other need put your foot down and don't buy in to them, You and other need to hold of the gamble commission to put stop it.
But that not what I have heard when you purchase loot boxes even with Overwatch your still are getting some kind items even if repeat of the same item ever now and then or what ever the case may be so that in self is not gambling.

NickJames said:
The definition of gambling is a game of chance. With loot boxes you have a chance of getting a high end rare item or shit gray filler items.
Click to expand...
The different is if your receiving any thing from high end rare item or shit items with each loot boxes you purchase unlike with definition of gambling when you loses you get nothing, nada, zip that the different.
 
Guys, POKER and BLACKJACK are fun games you can play with your siblings or grandparents. They are also games that, once money is applied to the table, can turn people into obsessive/compulsive drones who will exhibit all the obvious signs of addiction.

That is what is happening to Video Games, debating the legal definition of Gambling is not really the issue, let's not be too autistic today. The guy above who says it's akin to the Put-A-Quarter-In model above where you put the quarter in and got that palm-sized Dallas Cowboys or Pittsburgh Steelers pencil sharpener in the bubble, there is a difference. First, you knew you were getting a helmet, you just didn't know what color or sticker would be applied. Second, you paid a quarter and got the random helmet, you knew you were getting a helmet, you just didn't know which one.

Todays video games make you pay $60 bucks to get in the store, and then put a quarter in to maybe win something that might also be a helmet. You might get a helmet, or you might get a pile of pencil shavings, either way you will get SOMETHING, so it's not gambling!. That's a difference.

The more they lock behind loot-boxes, more people are compelled to chase the loot boxes. When it was skins and colors for your gear, maybe a special hat....yay, no harm no foul, although even at that level there were people who were absolutely chasing those things compulsively. Now, however, with $60 games or $99 ultimate editions demanding you to spend more time spending game-currency just to chase shit you expected to get with your $60 or $99 investment, it's crossing lines. If you can't get cars in your car game without having to compulsively obtain loot boxes to "try" and get them, that's kind of bullshit.

I play The Division over on PS4...poorly, I might add, I hate PVP (the game engine sucks for PVP) and only do PVE, and yes I kinda suck there too. I barely speak the RPG language and build-outs, I digress: I spent about a full day playing the last Global Event, farming stuff. I wound up getting about 20 superior loot crates for all my hard work farming in the game. What did I get? About 4 of the exact same thing and dozens of things I basically already owned and had no use for but to sell, I got one crappy Exotic weapon that you can buy from the vendors and that is dropped by low-level bosses. Now what can I do with all that "hey its not like you didn't get anything!" stuff? I can sell it in-game to get game credits. What are those credits good for? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It's a pile of cash on top of my already useless pile of cash that cannot be used for loot boxes or, really anything else, because the in-game vendors never have *shit* that isn't already worse than the stuff you very likely have already farmed out of the game. The economy is scaled in such a way that you really only need to buy stuff from a vendor while you are leveling up and then only if you are IMPATIENT, but if you save your cash for the endgame..surprise, there's nothing to buy. And this is the game. You grind to get that one thing you are missing, or those three or four things....and maybe, sometimes, you get it thanks to random chance. (I did get an MDR drop while playing a HARD mission.....I nearly shit my pants).

And yes, I know that you basically use money in this game to help-out your next lower-level character that you create and to re-roll items, but when you're at 20 million + dollars it's like.....dude I ain't transforming everything I buy. It also doesn't help that each group of items has its own currency, and none of it scales to the tons of cash you have piling up, its always those Phoenix Credits or Global Credits.....it would be nice if the game supported new players or even older players who are not into the OCD nature of the game, and allow you to buy (at extravagant cost no doubt, but still) some of those exotics using your in-game useless food-stamp currency....you know give us single players an option to at least grind for currency to get the ShowStopper or something, don't hide that shit behind only Legendary or Heroic assaults that I'm very likely never to play. It's a game, not a career.
 
shspvr said:
So if in Overwatch you purchase loot boxes and your receiving zero items with boxes ever now and then that you purchase from them then yes that is 100% gambling then you other need put your foot down and don't buy in to them, You and other need to hold of the gamble commission to put stop it.
But that not what I have heard when you purchase loot boxes even with Overwatch your still are getting some kind items even if repeat of the same item ever now and then or what ever the case may be so that in self is not gambling.


The different is if your receiving any thing from high end rare item or shit items with each loot boxes you purchase unlike with definition of gambling when you loses you get nothing, nada, zip that the different.
Click to expand...

With that mentality then I guess scratch offs aren't gambling because I got a $5 prize on a $10 scratch off. It's called baiting and gambling of any sorts does it all the time to coax people into spending more.
 
NickJames said:
With that mentality then I guess scratch offs aren't gambling because I got a $5 prize on a $10 scratch off. It's called baiting and gambling of any sorts does it all the time to coax people into spending more.
Click to expand...
That depend on the scratch offs your playing and yes they are gambling too and that can offering up to 20 Chances per-card unlike loot boxes or crate
 
I hate the very notion of loot boxes, but it isn't gambling. If grab bags or mystery bags or boxes you can purchase that probably have junk in them aren't gambling, then neither is this.
 
percydaman said:
I hate the very notion of loot boxes, but it isn't gambling. If grab bags or mystery bags or boxes you can purchase that probably have junk in them aren't gambling, then neither is this.
Click to expand...

Grab bags & mystery boxes ARE gambling. You're paying for something that might or might not have a value equal, over or less than the value of the money you spent on it.
 
Krenum said:
Grab bags & mystery boxes ARE gambling. You're paying for something that might or might not have a value equal, over or less than the value of the money you spent on it.
Click to expand...
Depend on how you look at it if it a fix deal price to everyone then no, But if it bidding war to fetch the highest price then yes look auction and there perfectly legal.
I'm not a fan of grab bags nor mystery boxes
 
Krenum said:
Grab bags & mystery boxes ARE gambling. You're paying for something that might or might not have a value equal, over or less than the value of the money you spent on it.
Click to expand...
No, they're not gambling by your definition because they're always full of garbage that has no real value except to some random guy to might find on ebay who wants a special color of whatever it was that you got. I'm not justifying loot boxes, I'm making a point about your example.

Loot boxes are dumb, and I'd like to see pay 2 win loot boxes with weapons and powerups go away. Cosmetics? Couldn't give 2 shits since they don't affect gameplay, and I don't give a crap if someone on youtube whines that they have a personality that somehow means they're compelled to piss away $2,000 on loot boxes to get a special costume that won't help them win a game.
 
Merc1138 said:
No, they're not gambling by your definition because they're always full of garbage that has no real value except to some random guy to might find on ebay who wants a special color of whatever it was that you got.
Click to expand...

So by your definition it has value, just not to you. And depending on what the value is, it could be more or less than what you paid for it. So in the end, you gambled.
 
This is essentially the digital version of 'blind boxes', my daughter buys toys all the time that are a complete mystery until the package is opened.
 
Krenum said:
So by your definition it has value, just not to you. And depending on what the value is, it could be more or less than what you paid for it. So in the end, you gambled.
Click to expand...
No, buying plastic junk in blind boxes makes you a fool, not a gambler.
 
Krenum said:
Some slot machines offer a fixed price to play, its the exact same thing.
Click to expand...
I know that but there diff with slot machines is you Lose more then you Win where with Lootbox or Crate you Win all time there is no Losing
 
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HeadRusch said:
Guys, POKER and BLACKJACK are fun games you can play with your siblings or grandparents. They are also games that, once money is applied to the table, can turn people into obsessive/compulsive drones who will exhibit all the obvious signs of addiction.

That is what is happening to Video Games, debating the legal definition of Gambling is not really the issue, let's not be too autistic today. The guy above who says it's akin to the Put-A-Quarter-In model above where you put the quarter in and got that palm-sized Dallas Cowboys or Pittsburgh Steelers pencil sharpener in the bubble, there is a difference. First, you knew you were getting a helmet, you just didn't know what color or sticker would be applied. Second, you paid a quarter and got the random helmet, you knew you were getting a helmet, you just didn't know which one.

Todays video games make you pay $60 bucks to get in the store, and then put a quarter in to maybe win something that might also be a helmet. You might get a helmet, or you might get a pile of pencil shavings, either way you will get SOMETHING, so it's not gambling!. That's a difference.

The more they lock behind loot-boxes, more people are compelled to chase the loot boxes. When it was skins and colors for your gear, maybe a special hat....yay, no harm no foul, although even at that level there were people who were absolutely chasing those things compulsively. Now, however, with $60 games or $99 ultimate editions demanding you to spend more time spending game-currency just to chase shit you expected to get with your $60 or $99 investment, it's crossing lines. If you can't get cars in your car game without having to compulsively obtain loot boxes to "try" and get them, that's kind of bullshit.

I play The Division over on PS4...poorly, I might add, I hate PVP (the game engine sucks for PVP) and only do PVE, and yes I kinda suck there too. I barely speak the RPG language and build-outs, I digress: I spent about a full day playing the last Global Event, farming stuff. I wound up getting about 20 superior loot crates for all my hard work farming in the game. What did I get? About 4 of the exact same thing and dozens of things I basically already owned and had no use for but to sell, I got one crappy Exotic weapon that you can buy from the vendors and that is dropped by low-level bosses. Now what can I do with all that "hey its not like you didn't get anything!" stuff? I can sell it in-game to get game credits. What are those credits good for? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It's a pile of cash on top of my already useless pile of cash that cannot be used for loot boxes or, really anything else, because the in-game vendors never have *shit* that isn't already worse than the stuff you very likely have already farmed out of the game. The economy is scaled in such a way that you really only need to buy stuff from a vendor while you are leveling up and then only if you are IMPATIENT, but if you save your cash for the endgame..surprise, there's nothing to buy. And this is the game. You grind to get that one thing you are missing, or those three or four things....and maybe, sometimes, you get it thanks to random chance. (I did get an MDR drop while playing a HARD mission.....I nearly shit my pants).

And yes, I know that you basically use money in this game to help-out your next lower-level character that you create and to re-roll items, but when you're at 20 million + dollars it's like.....dude I ain't transforming everything I buy. It also doesn't help that each group of items has its own currency, and none of it scales to the tons of cash you have piling up, its always those Phoenix Credits or Global Credits.....it would be nice if the game supported new players or even older players who are not into the OCD nature of the game, and allow you to buy (at extravagant cost no doubt, but still) some of those exotics using your in-game useless food-stamp currency....you know give us single players an option to at least grind for currency to get the ShowStopper or something, don't hide that shit behind only Legendary or Heroic assaults that I'm very likely never to play. It's a game, not a career.
Click to expand...

Here is my stance. If it is an MP game, I want a proper MP experience. Such as Battlefield 3/4. 4 was pushing the unlocking a bit far, but it was still within reason. Any game where most the content is locked behind dozens of hours of play time = no buy.

If you're making a game with a semi coherent story and structure, and not repeating maps populated with human adversaries it better be an offline SP game. I don't care for these half assed SP/MP hybrids that seem to be the rage these days (Destiny, The Division, Ghost Recon Wildlands). Make the SP games proper and don't force MP style grinding, XP exploding across the screen and other shit like that. If you do, I have little interest and likely won't buy. Just like Wildlands, I tried the free to play weekend. What the fuck is this shit? Make up your mind, online or SP game. Uninstalled very quickly.

If you're making a co-op game make it a proper experience. L4D got it right. Simulator type games get it right (DCS, ArmA).
 
shspvr said:
So if in Overwatch you purchase loot boxes and your receiving zero items with boxes ever now and then that you purchase from them then yes that is 100% gambling then you other need put your foot down and don't buy in to them, You and other need to hold of the gamble commission to put stop it.
But that not what I have heard when you purchase loot boxes even with Overwatch your still are getting some kind items even if repeat of the same item ever now and then or what ever the case may be so that in self is not gambling.


The different is if your receiving any thing from high end rare item or shit items with each loot boxes you purchase unlike with definition of gambling when you loses you get nothing, nada, zip that the different.
Click to expand...

And you're ignoring the fact that whether you get something back or not, doesn't negate it being gambling. It's still gambling. Go look up the definition of gambling and show me where it says you have to get nothing.

shspvr said:
I know that but there diff with slot machines is you Lose more then you Win where with Lootbox or Crate you Win all time there is no Losing
Click to expand...

Lootbox/crates you lose too. If I want none of it, just lost.

Flogger23m said:
Here is my stance. If it is an MP game, I want a proper MP experience. Such as Battlefield 3/4. 4 was pushing the unlocking a bit far, but it was still within reason. Any game where most the content is locked behind dozens of hours of play time = no buy.

If you're making a game with a semi coherent story and structure, and not repeating maps populated with human adversaries it better be an offline SP game. I don't care for these half assed SP/MP hybrids that seem to be the rage these days (Destiny, The Division, Ghost Recon Wildlands). Make the SP games proper and don't force MP style grinding, XP exploding across the screen and other shit like that. If you do, I have little interest and likely won't buy. Just like Wildlands, I tried the free to play weekend. What the fuck is this shit? Make up your mind, online or SP game. Uninstalled very quickly.

If you're making a co-op game make it a proper experience. L4D got it right. Simulator type games get it right (DCS, ArmA).
Click to expand...

Those aren't really what you'd call SP or MP games, but instead FPSMMO.
 
krotch said:
And you're ignoring the fact that whether you get something back or not, doesn't negate it being gambling. It's still gambling. Go look up the definition of gambling and show me where it says you have to get nothing.
Click to expand...
Sorry but 100% wrong seriously even the (PEGI) Pan European Game Information, which rates games in Europe—and Ukie, UK's game industry trade body, all said that they agree with the ESRB's position, so I guest you lost your case end of story.
Name some game where you lose Lootbox/Crate as in you get nothing at all after open the box ?.
http://www.pcgamer.com/european-game-rating-body-agrees-with-esrb-loot-boxes-arent-gambling/
 
shspvr said:
Sorry but 100% wrong seriously even the (PEGI) Pan European Game Information, which rates games in Europe—and Ukie, UK's game industry trade body, all said that they agree with the ESRB's position, so I guest you lost your case end of story.
Name some game where you lose Lootbox/Crate as in you get nothing at all after open the box ?.
http://www.pcgamer.com/european-game-rating-body-agrees-with-esrb-loot-boxes-arent-gambling/
Click to expand...

None of what I mentioned cared about what ratings a game gets. I simply stated, by definition, that lootboxes/crates are gambling. None of your ratings boards are changing the definition of gambling. Whether they accept the definition or not, don't care. It's definition is still the same.

I will repeat myself again though, "look up the definition of gambling".
 
krotch said:
None of what I mentioned cared about what ratings a game gets. I simply stated, by definition, that lootboxes/crates are gambling. None of your ratings boards are changing the definition of gambling. Whether they accept the definition or not, don't care. It's definition is still the same.

I will repeat myself again though, "look up the definition of gambling".
Click to expand...

The definition of Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice, a spin of a roulette wheel, or a horse crossing the finish line, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.

Take note of "uncertain outcome" mean winning and losing "risk or take chance" with Lootbox/Crate it dose not fall under this definition of gambling because you never lose so I will repeat myself again wrong, If think you know better then by all mean take it to your court system.
 
shspvr said:
The definition of Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize.The outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single roll of dice, a spin of a roulette wheel, or a horse crossing the finish line, but longer time frames are also common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports contest or even an entire sports season.

Take note of "uncertain outcome" mean winning and losing "risk or take chance" with Lootbox/Crate it dose not fall under this definition of gambling because you never lose so I will repeat myself again wrong, If think you know better then by all mean take it to your court system.
Click to expand...

Did you read your own definition? Where in it does it say I need to lose? "uncertain outcome" doesn't mean I need to win or lose. Simply means I don't know what is going to happen. In other words, a game of chance. Here's all your definition states.

1. Wager something
2. Game of chance
3. Can win something

That literally is all there is to gambling. With lootboxes/crates, what is considered the "prize" changes from person to person.

Obviously, the government, game ratings boards, or what have you will shrink down the definition to fit whatever it is they want it to be, but it doesn't make it any less gambling.
 
krotch said:
Did you read your own definition? Where in it does it say I need to lose? "uncertain outcome" doesn't mean I need to win or lose. Simply means I don't know what is going to happen. In other words, a game of chance. Here's all your definition states.

1. Wager something
2. Game of chance
3. Can win something

That literally is all there is to gambling. With lootboxes/crates, what is considered the "prize" changes from person to person.

Obviously, the government, game ratings boards, or what have you will shrink down the definition to fit whatever it is they want it to be, but it doesn't make it any less gambling.
Click to expand...
Obviously, Your forgetting one thing with Lootbox/Crate is that you do not lose you always winning something with every Lootbox/Crate you open, where with gambling when you lose you get nada, zip, absolutely nothing.
 
so having slot machines outside of schools are fine with you as long as you can at minimum win a penny each time?
After all it isn't gambling.
 
ChoGGi said:
so having slot machines outside of schools are fine with you as long as you can at minimum win a penny each time?
After all it isn't gambling.
Click to expand...
As long it kick out a prize all the time then it perfectly legal
059.jpg
 
ChoGGi said:
so having slot machines outside of schools are fine with you as long as you can at minimum win a penny each time?
After all it isn't gambling.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure I've never seen a legal issue with putting one of those vending machines where you can get stickers, cheap toys, things to put on your keys etc. outside of schools.
hqdefault.jpg
 
Merc1138 said:
Pretty sure I've never seen a legal issue with putting one of those vending machines where you can get stickers, cheap toys, things to put on your keys etc. outside of schools.
hqdefault.jpg
Click to expand...
LoL let not forget claw machines are over USA in store, amusement park and so on, unless you live in Canada where Law is skill cranes are illegal unless the player is allowed to make repeated attempts (on a single credit) until he or she succeeds in winning a prize.
​
Armenius said:
That's a vending machine. Stop being obtuse.
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There a reason for that soon it run out gumball then became a gambling machines which was one of it flaws it had no way stop it self
 
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