Unfortunately people are generally stupid. A lot of players think they know what they want, when in fact they have no idea what they want. I bet a lot of people will scoff at the idea of what games like EQNext and Camelot Unchained are proposing, but if they deliver you will see them flocking to it saying they wanted something like that all along. At the same time, many players will say OMG I can't wait for a game like this, and then play it for 30 days and say NM I really just wanted WoW 2.0 because they have issues coping with anything remotely different from what they used to.
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EQNext" will be the world's largest sandbox-style MMO ever made"
- Thread starter Sky15
- Start date
Unfortunately people are generally stupid. A lot of players think they know what they want, when in fact they have no idea what they want. I bet a lot of people will scoff at the idea of what games like EQNext and Camelot Unchained are proposing, but if they deliver you will see them flocking to it saying they wanted something like that all along. At the same time, many players will say OMG I can't wait for a game like this, and then play it for 30 days and say NM I really just wanted WoW 2.0 because they have issues coping with anything remotely different from what they used to.
My sentiments exactly EPOQ. People don't know what they want really, and something they had 10 years ago that they think they want now might not work with their current schedule, (like 10 hour raids or corpse runs). I still think EQ2 is a better game all around than any other MMO at this time, and like you I still miss my first love of EQ1 but I know I probably couldn't raid like that anymore either.
Mchart
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Most who played SWG pre-CU (And NGE of course) would agree that SWG was by far the best sandbox MMO to date. It had major issues, but the open-ness of the world was outstanding.
Keep in mind that SOE isn't really the ones to blame for SWG being shitted on with CU/NGE. They likely got pushed by Lucas to change the game as subscriber numbers were dropping before NGE was even released as it was.
SOE has won me back with PS2. They've now shown they *care* about the fans, and will design a game and take fan input.
I have decent hopes for EQ Next. All I really want is a MMO that has the awesome sandbox elements SWG had. Although SWG had the extra charm because it was the star wars IP.
Mchart
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This comment on Vanguard is ignorant of reality. Vanguard was screwed from day one. SOE was only truly invovled with Vanguard half a year later after McQuaid released a shit game with his studio.
I can't find the link but there was a huge article released about Vanguard a few years back written by an ex-employee of Sigil games. Brad McQuaid and his inept direction and waste of money is the largest cause of that games failiure. SOE gave McQuaid free reign on the development of that game and he screwed them.
Actually the game was (for the majority of it) developed under MicroSoft. Then MS bailed and SOE picked it up with the promise to run on their servers. From what I remember, McQuaid didn't want the team he originaly got but MS was hiring superstar talent left and right, essentially hiring too many chiefs and not enough indians. The squabling between the team heads essentialy made McQuaid stop showing up and throwing out grand schemes just so he didn't have to work with the team anymore. Once SOE took over 100% he left and only left a little tid bit about him working on a solo project much later (kind of like what he did with EQ).
Glad to see you feel the same way. Indeed, I wish I could play the hours I did back in High School when I had no responsibilities after homework and completely open weekends. Unfortunately those days are over, and it seems that in todays market in general, there's no money in catering that specific type of player. I understand a lot of games trying to go more casual, but they are going at it the wrong way. Like level curves, I'm perfectly fine with a steep curve. Why? It makes for more accomplishment in the end. I remember getting my first level 60 character in Kunark. Talk about accomplishment when people /con'd me in the commons tunnel. E-peen to the max. Why? Because it took a LOT of time and effort to get there. I might be slower at getting to max level in a game like that now, but I'd still prefer it to something that I can casually get to max level in a week or two, and hardcore players can get to max level in 24-48 hours.
GoldenTiger
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GoldenTiger
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You're full of good insight, and I am not being sarcastic
. I definitely want something new myself... I played DAOC for probably seven years cumulatively (it wasn't my first MMO), because it kept delivering new things. Eventually that slowed down and stopped as Mythic moved onto WAR, and I realized I'd experienced and played to death basically everything the game could offer with its mechanics. I'm keeping my eyes open on the upcoming crop of MMO's, but what's going to win me over is unique experiences that aren't dependent on "kill ten gru" from an NPC, i.e. player-generated/impacted, open-world/non-instanced (mostly), sandbox experiences where you're actually impacting the world again rather than tucked away inside a silly little instance. I miss that type of gameplay in my MMO's. I miss virtual worlds, rather than a couple of rides with a rope to tie them to eachother.Games like EQNext, Wildstar (if their Warplots and settlements are good), Camelot Unchained, etc. all sound exciting.
You're full of good insight, and I am not being sarcastic
Games like EQNext, Wildstar (if their Warplots and settlements are good), Camelot Unchained, etc. all sound exciting.
Thanks for the kind words. Glad to see there are some like minded people out there who are looking for a similar experience. I have high hopes for some of the games on the horizon (I always do, and so far they keep coming up short as I'm sure you're well aware!!)
I'm in VA where the City State studio is (Fairfax) developing Camelot Unchained. Needless to say I'm sending them emails trying to get them to put my name in the hat once the Kickstarter launches for an interview. I figure if I pester them enough maybe at some point they will at least bring me in, small studio after all. And no, I'm not a skilled programmer or artist, I'm in technology sales with a slew of IT certs with Cisco, CompTIA, etc., but I'd like to have a role in a "Community Manager" type of position working for a game developer. Man, that'd be dream job status. If they won't interview me then I may very well attempt to donate the maximum amount I can to their Kickstarter should they have one of those "meet and greet" levels, hahaha. Hey guys, bought my way into an interview! -- Wouldn't that be great though? All these years going unheard, and getting to actually voice my opinion to the developer for once and know they are listening?
GoldenTiger
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Best of luck with your inquiries... that sounds like it would be a very good blend of personal interest along with work, indeed. Also, I'd think having some tech knowledge would be a plus for them on the CM front if you can get the interview, as you'd understand what is being said on the technical front a lot more easily internally. I know the feeling on wondering if you're being listened to at all... it's indeed a great feeling to know you are being listened to, and it would probably be pretty damn cool to be on the inside of a project like that. I'm getting my wallet ready for the Kickstarter myself , but just as a player as far as Camelot Unchained goes.
, but just as a player as far as Camelot Unchained goes.Best of luck with your inquiries... that sounds like it would be a very good blend of personal interest along with work, indeed. Also, I'd think having some tech knowledge would be a plus for them on the CM front if you can get the interview, as you'd understand what is being said on the technical front a lot more easily internally. I know the feeling on wondering if you're being listened to at all... it's indeed a great feeling to know you are being listened to, and it would probably be pretty damn cool to be on the inside of a project like that. I'm getting my wallet ready for the Kickstarter myself
Out of curiosity, any interest in Neverwinter? I'm considering playing it as a holdover until I hear more about CU, EQNext, and TES:O. I'm sure we can gather enough players to get an [H] group going once it goes live. I always try the "next thing" on the horizon, whether or not I see much potential in it, I like to give all of the bigger titles a fair shot.
GoldenTiger
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Nope, I haven't really been too interested in that one, sorry.
Haha yeah it doesn't look incredibly innovative. I just want to try out "The Foundry" where you are apparently able to make your own dungeon content for others to play through. Figured I'd give it a go since its going to be F2P anyway.
Haha, yesssss.
Giveee meeee moooooore
He said "cant wait until SOE Live" -- I read they were going to be showing some stuff at E3 next week, SOE Live isn't until August IIRC. Wonder what they'll show at E3.
GoldenTiger
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Hrrrrmmmmmmmmmm, interesting. Still fairly interesting how under-wraps they're keeping this so "close" to launch.
tehslippery
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It's not close to launch, they just started the game over from scrap again last year. If it is close to launch it's going to be horrendously incomplete.
But being as they are banking on players creating all the content, I wouldn't be surprised.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...t_against_content_churn_says_SOEs_Smedley.php
They have redesigned it twice and I don't recall them saying that the last redesign was just a year ago.
I would htink if they scrapped it all last year, a single year o fodevelopment would be no where near enough, I'd say they changed it probably a couple years back, before settling on making it into a sandbox game.
Depends on how much of the engine etc they recycle. The current EQ2 gfx are actually pretty decent, don't think players would really ask for better gfx as long as the gameplay is fine.
GoldenTiger
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On second thought, you're kinda right... the less time they spend marketing and responding to random people on their forums and the more time they spend developing...
.I tend to be more impressed with games when they release pre beta stuff instead of their final product. Makes me think they are confident we will be blown away.
EQ did this, the finally was a mixture of boulder creatures and a dragon made out of sticks.
EQ did this, the finally was a mixture of boulder creatures and a dragon made out of sticks.
Disposed
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The eq2 engine is a dog, looks ok but runs life compete shit.
NKDietrich
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Yeah, they made some gambles with the EQ2 engine that didn't pay off. It was designed to run great on a 10GHz single core CPU along the lines of Netburst, which never happened. We went into multicore CPUs, and GPU horsepower increased a lot faster than CPU horsepower.
EQNext, as far as I know, runs an engine similar to the Planetside 2 one.
Stop trying to run in on an embedded gfx card!
He's right, as someone who played the game at release EQ2 was terribly optimized and they ubilt the game with the "future" in mind but that future didn't come (they didn't buidl for multi cpu, but raw straight up cpu horsepower).
I remember playing it at release and having constant HD churning because of the power it wanted, and even a few years after it still ran like crap with things at high.
Youn
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"It's not the size of your mmorpg that matters, it's how you use it."
<----- that's what he said
<----- that's what he said
Disposed
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Stop trying to run in on an embedded gfx card!
Even now it's shit and trust me my machine is more than capable yet eq2 is still a dog that chugd at times. But maybe it's me and my 3770 @ 4.5 ghz and my gtx 680 running it off an ssd.
Considering its age and the graphics it has the horsepower it requires us ridiculous.
Comixbooks
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God I hope I loose my job so I can play this game (just got in trouble again today)
yeah it's Walmart for ya boss sucks....
I hope my Machine will be able to play this game and I hope the graphics are too similar to PS2.
I'm a big EQ2 fan more the WOW I didn't play it to death but I like what I seen in the game but I couldn't stand plaing the game on a LCD though I was using a CRT back in 2004 and up.
yeah it's Walmart for ya boss sucks....
I hope my Machine will be able to play this game and I hope the graphics are too similar to PS2.
I'm a big EQ2 fan more the WOW I didn't play it to death but I like what I seen in the game but I couldn't stand plaing the game on a LCD though I was using a CRT back in 2004 and up.
Comixbooks
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I just think EQ2 looks like shit on a LCD because everything is way too bright and washed out cause of the lack of textures and stuff. While Planetside 2 using the light forge engine is great looking and I can play it for hours without my eyes bugging me out.
eq2 had the best crafting system period until they dumbed it down... way down...
tehslippery
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Because EQ2 constantly fucks with your Gamma settings
RanceJustice
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It wasn't a bad system, but it had WAY too many penalties and grind/time investments necessary. They easily could have similar depth without the unrecoverable fails, lost items etc.. and long durations simply based on chance alone. It was more like a slot machine than a crafting system, at least when I played.
I loved EverQuest for the huge, well designed worlds, and lore. However, the mechanics were absolutely dreadful in many cases. XP loss, corpse runs, "hell levels", lack of instancing/ "CAMP CHECK" grinding being the only way to get gear, mandatory grouping for most classes, complete class imbalance to the point that only a handful of classes could solo or duo well etc.. it goes on and on.
I think it will be possible to take the good from EQ and leave the bad in the past, but that is going to mean SOE has to refuse to listen to the old-school players who want the exact same thing as EQ with upgraded graphics and/or anyone who believes that games should be punitively difficult for the sake of it... You can have an epic quest for your guild like unlocking Sanctus Seru's keys and getting Seru-bane weapons, but you don't have to make it take 6 months for a single player etc...
NKDietrich
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They already got burned trying to make EQ with updated graphics in EQ2, and it allowed World of Warcraft to be much more successful. EQ2 was just too hard for people at first. Only after years of patching did it become something more casual. And even then, WoW is still much easier to get into.
So I don't think they are trying to do that again. Besides, given their sandbox and F2P focus as of late, it's unlikely this is going to be a raid or die game.
tehslippery
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I seem to recall Smedley saying something about realizing raiding is really important.
Which it is, because look at all these MMO's have their customer base completely vanish after getting to max level and having nothing there.
Which it is, because look at all these MMO's have their customer base completely vanish after getting to max level and having nothing there.
RAiding is a gimmick, it's a one trick pony gameplay element that a few people have.
The whole idea of making raiding the "end game" for an mmo is so extremely outdated and tiring.
It's super repetitive, gets old very fast, and has gotten to be more and more about " numbers" then actual skills.
I'd rather have a good revolutionary (in mmo terms) combat system that allows for a very ver ydifficult boss but one that is buitl around an actual GROUP and not a fucking army to take on.
Where instead of 40 people sitting around attacking a dragon's legs you actually have people in your group using their class skills in strategic manners to take down an extremely tough boss.
Think something like Dark Souls/Dragon's Dogma style of thing, where combat is more strategically focused and less a numbers game.
Also "end" game in an mmo needs to have more DYNAMIC elements, things that players can do that are varied, not repeitive, and allow the players themselves to dynamically affect it so it doesn't get old.
For me I just have to go back to this,
I played both UO And EQ. UO was a sandbox game (which is what they have mentioned EQnext is going for, sandbox) and UO had ZERO Quests and was not built around "Raiding" at all end game wise.
The game was such a sandbox, that even once you hit 7x gm (as in that's as many skills as you could max) the game didn't feel like it "ended," there was no "wall" which you hit like in theme park mmo's where you do this content and then it stops. So in UO you just kept playing, and playing, doing a LARGE variety of things, whatever you wanted, from pvp, to exploring dungeons, sailing, taming animals, social events, etc.
Which brings me to another point, sandbox games need SOCIAL elements. UO and EQ were both social games, but in UO there was just so much more "community" to it in terms of social interaction. The player economy focus, crafters, tamers selling their tamed animals in towns, friendly community events because you could actaully build your house in the MAIN world, there was no "instancing" crap.
If EQnext wants to truly be a "sandbox" game it needs to ditch the instancing, EQ2 was TERRIBLE at instancing, every single zone int he game was instanced, housing was instanced, everything felt "Seperated" and it took away a LOT from the "community" aspect of the game, whereas UO with 0 instances made the world feel so much more alive and lived in by other real people because of all the interaction you did with other players, good or bad.
The whole idea of making raiding the "end game" for an mmo is so extremely outdated and tiring.
It's super repetitive, gets old very fast, and has gotten to be more and more about " numbers" then actual skills.
I'd rather have a good revolutionary (in mmo terms) combat system that allows for a very ver ydifficult boss but one that is buitl around an actual GROUP and not a fucking army to take on.
Where instead of 40 people sitting around attacking a dragon's legs you actually have people in your group using their class skills in strategic manners to take down an extremely tough boss.
Think something like Dark Souls/Dragon's Dogma style of thing, where combat is more strategically focused and less a numbers game.
Also "end" game in an mmo needs to have more DYNAMIC elements, things that players can do that are varied, not repeitive, and allow the players themselves to dynamically affect it so it doesn't get old.
For me I just have to go back to this,
I played both UO And EQ. UO was a sandbox game (which is what they have mentioned EQnext is going for, sandbox) and UO had ZERO Quests and was not built around "Raiding" at all end game wise.
The game was such a sandbox, that even once you hit 7x gm (as in that's as many skills as you could max) the game didn't feel like it "ended," there was no "wall" which you hit like in theme park mmo's where you do this content and then it stops. So in UO you just kept playing, and playing, doing a LARGE variety of things, whatever you wanted, from pvp, to exploring dungeons, sailing, taming animals, social events, etc.
Which brings me to another point, sandbox games need SOCIAL elements. UO and EQ were both social games, but in UO there was just so much more "community" to it in terms of social interaction. The player economy focus, crafters, tamers selling their tamed animals in towns, friendly community events because you could actaully build your house in the MAIN world, there was no "instancing" crap.
If EQnext wants to truly be a "sandbox" game it needs to ditch the instancing, EQ2 was TERRIBLE at instancing, every single zone int he game was instanced, housing was instanced, everything felt "Seperated" and it took away a LOT from the "community" aspect of the game, whereas UO with 0 instances made the world feel so much more alive and lived in by other real people because of all the interaction you did with other players, good or bad.
Raiding is the best mechanic game designers have come up with to keep people's interest in the end game. They have tried a bunch of other things - and none of them have worked, IMHO.
So you can rant that you don't like raiding - but then go play GW2. Oh wait you say there is 'nothing to do in the endgame.' Fine. But don't pick on game designers for going with raiding. It works better then anything else - by a long shot.
So you can rant that you don't like raiding - but then go play GW2. Oh wait you say there is 'nothing to do in the endgame.' Fine. But don't pick on game designers for going with raiding. It works better then anything else - by a long shot.
You don't seem to understand, raiding is the minority. Yet for "end game" it's pretty mucht he ONLY thing left to do in many mmo's.
What others things have they tried? (as far as theme parks go), almost ANY mmo to come out built on a theme park foundation has been "raid raid raid" and yet raiders are a loud, but vocal minority of the playerbase.
I was merely stating my experience having played both Sandbox mmo's (UO) and them park mmo's focused toward raiding (EQ), where one game has an "ending" feeling and you hit a cap where you don't feel like ther'es anything to accomplish once you've did the end raids over and over and over and then you have games built on a sandbox where all the content is dynamic and what you do is up to you rather then being led down a path toward raiding being the end goal (and only end goal).
There's all kind of content mmo's can do that simply haven't been tapped into, mainly because mmo developers are busy building upon the same old formula that's been done over and over and aren't trying anything new.
GW2 is a perfect example of this, they led people toward thinking it was different, but the entire game was built upon a lot of the same mmo formula, just slighty changed/masked. The whole "hearts" system of the world got SUPER Repetitive super fast and there wasn't a lot of variety to things. The "story" aspect of teh game came off as feeling extremely cheap and unpolished.
Why not build the end game toward dynamic content the players can influence?
I don't know if you heard of it, but many many years ago there was an mmo being developed called Horizons that was trying to do something like this. The concept of the game was from David Allen, it had many GREAT concepts, races (Dragons, Angels, Vampires, Giants - that were actually GIANT, etc) and other things, with faction/race based pvp and things in mind. Sadly the concept never made it into the game which was taken over in development and drastically changed after David Bowmen and company took over.
Such as for example, allowing players the ability to play as a dragon, which starts out small (and is vunerable/weak) and if they are able to survive and play without dying, they grow over time to become massive dragons that are extremely powerful and have to be hunted by many many players in order to be killed.
Could you imagine an mmo that allows that these days? I don't know about you, but to me that'd be a fun challenge, to play as a race that has the potential to be something special, but only a few that can make it there.
With an open faction pvp world it'd be extremely difficult and coming across a player who managed it would be rare and unique, not to mention being one of the players that brought one down.
They also had planned to have NPC's that would roam the world and take over things, like what happens in GW2 but DYNAMICALLY and not having it be "set" like the events in GW2 are, contained to specific zones//area's.
One of the few things that actualy made it into the game (Which is now called Istaria instead of Horizons) was community based content. Where players could do events together, with many awesome things happening.
For example, one server banded together to dig a tunnel. They dug a tunnel deep underground and ended up uncovering a new race, which opened up for ht eplayers to play as. Another example is when a community built a bridge to an island which in turn opened up new housing plots for people to build on.
With EQnext going the sandbox route, there are things they can do that theme park mmo's are usually not designed for, the pvp aspect for one (Whcih no lv-based/theme park/gear dependent mmo has really made that well) among offering content more dynamic in general, because of how open the world can be developed.
Especially if they develop it open enough that you have things such as boats, player built housing/cities (non-instanced) or even things such as dragons, dragon mounts or other things that can be developed and fleshed out into something more then other mmo's have done.
For example, most mmo's that do feature flying mounts don't really have much content for it, even WoW had to build stuff for it because of what little they had at the start. The vertical slice of the game needs to be developed for such things. Then there's the whole "control" aspect, the lack of any type of actual flying omvement, treating flying mounts as though they are ground based mounts (IE not being able to turn/roll them) and lack of general speed or physics that come into play with flight-based games.
Could you imagine if they fleshed otu that spect, gave people full control over flying mounts (or even flying abilities, like magical based ones) and built the world for vertical based content in mind? Could add a whole new dynamic tot he world.
What others things have they tried? (as far as theme parks go), almost ANY mmo to come out built on a theme park foundation has been "raid raid raid" and yet raiders are a loud, but vocal minority of the playerbase.
I was merely stating my experience having played both Sandbox mmo's (UO) and them park mmo's focused toward raiding (EQ), where one game has an "ending" feeling and you hit a cap where you don't feel like ther'es anything to accomplish once you've did the end raids over and over and over and then you have games built on a sandbox where all the content is dynamic and what you do is up to you rather then being led down a path toward raiding being the end goal (and only end goal).
There's all kind of content mmo's can do that simply haven't been tapped into, mainly because mmo developers are busy building upon the same old formula that's been done over and over and aren't trying anything new.
GW2 is a perfect example of this, they led people toward thinking it was different, but the entire game was built upon a lot of the same mmo formula, just slighty changed/masked. The whole "hearts" system of the world got SUPER Repetitive super fast and there wasn't a lot of variety to things. The "story" aspect of teh game came off as feeling extremely cheap and unpolished.
Why not build the end game toward dynamic content the players can influence?
I don't know if you heard of it, but many many years ago there was an mmo being developed called Horizons that was trying to do something like this. The concept of the game was from David Allen, it had many GREAT concepts, races (Dragons, Angels, Vampires, Giants - that were actually GIANT, etc) and other things, with faction/race based pvp and things in mind. Sadly the concept never made it into the game which was taken over in development and drastically changed after David Bowmen and company took over.
Such as for example, allowing players the ability to play as a dragon, which starts out small (and is vunerable/weak) and if they are able to survive and play without dying, they grow over time to become massive dragons that are extremely powerful and have to be hunted by many many players in order to be killed.
Could you imagine an mmo that allows that these days? I don't know about you, but to me that'd be a fun challenge, to play as a race that has the potential to be something special, but only a few that can make it there.
With an open faction pvp world it'd be extremely difficult and coming across a player who managed it would be rare and unique, not to mention being one of the players that brought one down.
They also had planned to have NPC's that would roam the world and take over things, like what happens in GW2 but DYNAMICALLY and not having it be "set" like the events in GW2 are, contained to specific zones//area's.
One of the few things that actualy made it into the game (Which is now called Istaria instead of Horizons) was community based content. Where players could do events together, with many awesome things happening.
For example, one server banded together to dig a tunnel. They dug a tunnel deep underground and ended up uncovering a new race, which opened up for ht eplayers to play as. Another example is when a community built a bridge to an island which in turn opened up new housing plots for people to build on.
With EQnext going the sandbox route, there are things they can do that theme park mmo's are usually not designed for, the pvp aspect for one (Whcih no lv-based/theme park/gear dependent mmo has really made that well) among offering content more dynamic in general, because of how open the world can be developed.
Especially if they develop it open enough that you have things such as boats, player built housing/cities (non-instanced) or even things such as dragons, dragon mounts or other things that can be developed and fleshed out into something more then other mmo's have done.
For example, most mmo's that do feature flying mounts don't really have much content for it, even WoW had to build stuff for it because of what little they had at the start. The vertical slice of the game needs to be developed for such things. Then there's the whole "control" aspect, the lack of any type of actual flying omvement, treating flying mounts as though they are ground based mounts (IE not being able to turn/roll them) and lack of general speed or physics that come into play with flight-based games.
Could you imagine if they fleshed otu that spect, gave people full control over flying mounts (or even flying abilities, like magical based ones) and built the world for vertical based content in mind? Could add a whole new dynamic tot he world.
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I loved old school eq, was way addicted for years, from release to pop. No other mmo has held my attention for more than a month or two since. I liked that about old school eq, traveling through the world to get to place to place, corpse runs, trains, camping for rare named mobs and the sense of danger you got in going through unfamiliar territory or trying at lvl 10 to run through kith at night. If I want easy I can play pretty much all the other mmo's out right now.