Epic buys Rocket League developer Psyonix, will stop selling the game on Steam

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by naib, May 1, 2019.

  1. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Well we know for a fact that isn't true. Without the full conversation and context the screen cap isn't reliable enough to be noteworthy.
     
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  2. SomeoneElse

    SomeoneElse [H]ard|Gawd

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    Not sure why everyone is arguing semantics here. The fact that there is the whole IDEA that they are pulling a game off steam because they are putting it on the EGS is complete BS. It would Be complete BS if Steam did the same shit but i haven't heard to many instances where that happened, with Tim and Epic this shit happens weekly.....
    This trend is dirty and smells of straight greed more than " it's for the customers". He's just forcing everyone to buy stuff from his store that's all this is.
     
  3. {NG}Fidel

    {NG}Fidel [H]ardness Supreme

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    More like lazy and uninspired...
    Even though I’m not pro steam I don’t really respect Epic for trying to blatantly steal users.
     
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  4. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Thanks for the snorting laugh. :D Glad I was not drinking anything when I read that. :) I just remembered to download and install EGS on the computer I am on at this moment.
     
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  5. ZodaEX

    ZodaEX 2[H]4U

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    I used to have a roommate who snorted when he laughed. Was fat as a pig too. Probably why he couldn't help but do it.
     
  6. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Ummm, what? Not really sure how to take this? Oh well, first 5k race this year for me this Saturday, have not felt like racing for a while, just running itself. Oh, and I have EGS installed on all my computer and from what I can see, it is a damn shame that they did not produce a UT4 or something like that, it would have been fun.
     
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  7. Lakados

    Lakados [H]ard|Gawd

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    On one hand I am upset by Epic's behavior, on the other I happily look forward to seeing what Valve does to counter this behavior, I don't care for either I will use what I have to use my MasterCard doesn't know the difference, but Valve wont let them continue this way unchallenged for too long before they step up their game and when they do we should have a nice rally back and forth between and that will be a good show for everybody.
     
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  8. ZodaEX

    ZodaEX 2[H]4U

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    My ex roomate used to run often too. Loved telling people about how he did too. You sound a whole lot like him interestingly enough.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  9. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    *Shakes head and shrugs* Ohhh, internet guy makes reference to imaginary person, I should be offended quickly. :D :) Sure thing dude, perhaps I can even out race you, even though I am not at my best shape at them moment. (2 years of extreme stress drove me into the ground and ruined my health, going to take sometime to come back to that.) Sub 1:20 half, sub 18 5ks, all in my mid to later 40's and I still have no issue installing the Epic Games Store. :D LOL! ;)
     
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  10. ZodaEX

    ZodaEX 2[H]4U

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    Sure, maybe you could outrace me. But then again you just lied about the person I referenced being an imaginary one so now I'm thinking that your word cannot be trusted. If you'd lie about that, you'd also probably lie about being such an amazing runner too. I do believe one thing you told me today. You snort when you laugh.
     
  11. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Sounds to me like you are taking the Epic Games Store thing a bit personally. I am guessing your Steam Stock or whatever stock is available went down because of EGS? *Shrug* Rather have a handful of store fronts, including EGS, instead of the hundreds of floppies, CD's or DVD's with manuals, like I once had. (Manuals were needed for copy protection as well.)
     
  12. ZodaEX

    ZodaEX 2[H]4U

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    Nah. I don't use nor support Steam anymore. I'm more of a physical-copy kind of guy about videogames. Somehow I just can't convince myself that I really own a game if its a digital copy and I'm very much into the collecting and reselling aspect of physical games too. It was a respectable guess though.
     
  13. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The thing is, physical copies have not really been a thing for at least 10 years, for the most part. I have not bought any of those games at full price so that helps.
     
  14. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You know what isn't true? And whatever it is, where is your proof?

    I know you're desperate to grasp at straws, and if you had the entire conversation on numbered screenshots including what the devs eat for lunch that day, you'd still find some way to say "it isn't really what it seems"

    And here is more context

    Bear in mind that the conversation was hypothetical, and they were not approached by Epic directly. As far as I know nobody was. It's the developers who usually ask epic to sell on the epic store. And apparently the deal is if you want to sell on the epic store you must sign the exclusivity deal.

    And this dev seems to have decided against going to the epic store to avoid the backlash. And I hope he gets rewarded by selling more copies.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  15. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You can sell on EGS and sell on another store or client. I've already linked you to examples in the past.

    EX) The Division 2 Uplay:
    https://www.cdkeys.com/pc/games/tom-clancys-the-division-2-pc-inc-teddy-bear-dlc-uplay

    The Division 2 EGS:
    https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/product/the-division-2/home

    BL3 EGS on 3rd party sites:
    https://www.cdkeys.com/pc/games/borderlands-3-pc-cd-key
    https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/borderlands-3-pc/

    Metro Exodus:
    https://www.cdkeys.com/pc/games/metro-exodus-pc-cd-key


    I've never seen anything to suggest you can't sell on both Steam and EGS if you wanted to. The screen cap you provided doesn't show anything concrete. We don't even know if these developers even reviewed the selling terms of selling of EGS.
     
  16. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Since no game that I know of had launched on both epic and steam it is safe to assume someone doesn't allow it. And since rise of industry is on multiple stores (including gog) but not on epic it seems obvious who is the odd one out.

    GMG and cdkeys are not clients, they are 3rd party sellers, and yes it's good that epic is allowing selling games there, but it is not relevant to whether epic would allow a game to launch on the epic store while it is also on steam.
    Uplay is ubisoft's own launcher so it is quite outlandish to expect division 2 removed from there at epic's whim. Plus ubisoft likely has a little more pull than some random indie dev, wouldn't you say?
     
  17. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And that is just that, an assumption with no real proof.

    It isn't on Origin or Uplay either and we know Origin sells a number of games that are also on Steam. I didn't follow the history of City of Industry, but they probably wanted a DRM copy and GOG is the only story that has that; I suppose some Humble Bundle games may be DRM free to. In general most developers will only want to use one client. It takes more effort and time to maintain two store fronts and update distributions. It isn't that difficult, or I assume it isn't, but why add complexity?

    A quick search shows Rise of Industry was an early access game. They were likely tethered in with Steamworks and obviously had an obligation to continue updating for the buyers of the early access version. At this point it makes less sense to bother putting it up on EGS. Had it been a clean slate and they didn't go the early access route it would make more sense to put it up on EGS.

    But again we don't have any proof of this (not being able to sell on both). And not referring to you here specifically, but we keep hearing about all of these assumptions and they're practically all turned out to be baseless. Can't purchase EGS games anywhere else? False. Is Epic throwing unconditional money up front to developers to make them stop selling on Steam? False. Epic
    "stealing games"? They'd be in court if they did that.

    I think we'll know in time that yes, this is another one of those instances where the assumptions turned out to be untrue.


    Of course they do have more pull but isn't that moving the goal post? Look at the number of sales Borderlands 2 received. It was probably more profitable than The Division so Gearbox/2K would also have a lot of pull.

    I still assume (and this is a guess) the reason Ubisoft sells on EGS is because they are going to get some technology transfer or waived engine fees for an upcoming game. Otherwise I expected them to ditch Steam around 2019/2020 even before EGS became a contender. R6 Siege was their killer app and they have a massive install base because even Steam users have to use Uplay. I can't see them sticking around on EGS for a long time either and I expect them to go Uplay exclusive in the coming years.

    Going back to smaller developers, I think we'll see the shift to EGS more and more. Especially since most use UE4. You're already working with Epic. My understanding is the relationship between Epic is more notable because you're often dealing with Epic from day 1 up until release if you're on UE4, whereas you deal with Steam towards the end when you're finishing up the game. It isn't hard to imagine this naturally extends and makes the thought of using EGS a lot more appealing. You're been working with these guys and their support team through the life of your project. Tack on lower fees and I can see the appeal of going EGS only with a delayed release for Steam (for the holdouts). That way the game will be done, updates ready ect. You just upload the final build with DLC included on Steam rather than juggle two clients and you can mostly appease the Steam or death crowd.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  18. Newbie_52

    Newbie_52 [H]Lite

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    Lol damn dude, you must like work for epic or something
     
  19. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

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    No, it's just facts and common sense. The hyperbole and hysterical shrieking by so called gamers is absurd.
     
  20. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I blame social media. People feel like they need to outrage about everything these days without putting thought into it. Sadly it has seeped into what little traditional forums are left.
     
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  21. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    How do you prove that something doesn't exist?

    I'd be happy to change my mind if someone shows me a high profile game that launches simultaneously on steam and the epic store.

    You are really grasping at straws. You dismiss the most obvious explanation and try to come up with outlandish scenarios on why no game is on both storefronts. But why? What stake do you have in the good name of the epic store?

    A quick search? I say it in my first post and now you want to use it as a gotcha moment? LOL, You're proving yourself wrong. How would being early access on steam prevent going on the epic store if they didn't have to remove it from steam?


    Actually that is how science works. If all the available data points to one thing, we are going to assume that thing to be true. And there seems to be no game that launched on both steam and epic. Which is proof enough for 99.9999999% of the world. I'm sure if you yourself knew about such a game you'd be all over posting it here.

    Bullshit. First off It was the case in march that you couldn't sell keys anywhere else, except the humble store with whom epic has partnered with. It's commendable that they since have changed their stance on third party key sellers, but don't try to misrepresent that as just an assumption, it was fact at that time.
    Also you don't know the conditions of each deal epic has made with each developer. We only know of the deal from phoenix point. And yes it was tied to sales there. If sales wouldn't hit a certain margin epic would pay them. But this is all besides the point. It doesn't matter what did epic use to incentivize devs to become exclusive to them. The problem is the practice itself, always was, and will be until they stop doing it. And this is a true assumption: I don't expect them to stop it despite their claims of the contrary.

    Yes some youtubers and some people on forums made false claims, but that doesn't exonerate epic. It's all just misdirection on your part. You're using the chewbacca defense.

    Now you're drawing a false equivalence. Just when I thought you had no more fallacies up your sleeve. Gearbox/2K has no storefront / launcher of their own, and obviously I was referring to the pulll of ubisoft the company, and not the number of sales that particular franchise achieved. And actually you're wrong even there. The data I found suggests that borderlands 2 sold ~13 million copies in 3 years, while the division hit ~20 million. in 2 years.

    I see no point in buying a game on either steam or epic that needs uplay to run anyway.

    Again, for the billionth time probably, nobody disputes that advantages the epic store has. We are against what they do wrong, not what they do right. When we say we're against the epic store, we don't mean we're against 18/82 revenue share, or waiving of the engine fees. All of those are misrepresentations of the people crying out against epic's exclusivity deals.

    And yes there are steam fanboys who would cry anyway, but that does not exonerate epic for the anti consumer deals they are making.
     
  22. M76

    M76 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Made up facts, and common bullshit.
     
  23. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    No kidding. I am all for competition. I've long been someone who's yelled at the "I'll only buy on Steam" folks that we do NOT want a monopoly in game distribution. I personally preferentially buy on GOG. However that doesn't mean that what Epic is doing is good. They aren't trying to compete by offering a better service, they are trying to compete by throwing money around to take games away from other services. Not only is that unsustainable, but it is also anti-competitive. If you have a situation where you can only buy something from one store, that really isn't any kind of competition and isn't good for consumers. If you have a Safeway and a Frys and an Albertsons near you, that's great you have choice and competition in groceries. However if Safeway cuts a deal with apple producers so you can only buy apples at Safeway, that is not great.
     
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  24. Newbie_52

    Newbie_52 [H]Lite

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    The 'exclusive' deals mean exactly that, they can't sell on steam, and they are getting money for it. Tim even said they might not make money in 2019 because of it.
     
  25. Flogger23m

    Flogger23m [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You're making a claim and without solid proof it doesn't hold water. You can keep repeating it all you want but that doesn't make it more right or less wrong.

    Correlation doesn't equal causation.

    Few games will launch on two clients. As I mentioned that requires more work even if it is relatively simple. It isn't hard to grasp that developers/publishers will try to minimize work if possible. The only trend I see happening longer term is games will no longer release on Steam after a delay because most gamers will have accepted EGS by then. That is, unless Valve does something to attract game designers again.


    The part in bold is ironic. Just re-read your past few posts. An incomplete screen cap, with no context and a developer that may not even have reviewed the selling terms for EGS and you're passing this off as a credible source. If you could provide some hard evidence from a credible source I'd certainly be interested. To make that screen cap relevant we'd need to know the following:

    - Full conversation
    - Confirmation if the developers had actually contacted Epic to review the actual selling terms
    - Some type of evidence confirming that EGS selling terms prohibit from selling alongside Steam

    That would be something noteworthy. I'm certainly interested if you can provide some good sources for anything like that.

    But the sly attempt to pretend I'm a shill took the cake. When your arguments and "source" is so bad that you have to resort to slander, you know you've fucked up. :p

    You might want to actually read and comprehend my posts. Did you not even read the part where I mention the game is likely tethered with Steamworks? And as an early access game many of the sales may have already been made. At this point in time there is not a lot of reason to even bother with an EGS release because a substantial part of the sales have been made, the state of the game may still require more frequent updates and bothering with a 2nd client with dubious benefit is just another pain in the neck to deal with. These may be "outlandish" claims to a gamer and I can understand that. But in game development this would typically be referred to as a scope issue. For a small developer who is obligated to support the game on Steam and likely made a substantial part of the sales already dealing with EGS is frankly, pointless. Even if someone is okay with using EGS they will choose Steam over it because Steam is a better client which is another reason offering it for sale on EGS isn't worth their time.

    Lol actually no, that is not how science works. "We assume this, so without confirming or testing it we'll state this is true". You're using a cropped, of questionable context, without actual confirmation the developer has reviewed the terms personally screen shot as hard proof. There is a term for that line of logic, "junk science".

    And there is little reason to launch on both as I've explained to you at least half a dozen times by now. Again, correlation doesn't = causation.

    Doubtful because it wouldn't be newsworthy. If it happens I'll surely post it the next time someone says "you can't sell on EGS and Steam at launch".

    That window lasted what, one week? Metro EGS keys started showing up on 3rd party sites a long time ago. That has more to do with incompetence and a rushed launching of EGS. The whole client was kicked out the door ~6 months early and I assume everything related to supply channels was in equal disarray for the first few weeks. That doesn't excuse them, but they've readily supported 3rd party stores since March. Which is the same month the first EGS exclusive came out (Metro). Every other EGS came had 3rd party store options at release or for pre-purchase. If I am wrong here feel free to correct me.

    The first non-Valve Steam game I played was given incentives to sell copies exclusively tied to Steam. Would you also consider that to be a problem?

    In any case you (used) to claim the issue was that Epic sold games exclusively. Obviously that hasn't been the case since March. So is tethering a game to EGS only now bad as well? I'm wondering because that happened with Steam, but people aren't complaining about that.

    "They were wrong, but lets point fingers at Epic anyways." Interesting.

    What the hell... did you even read? I wasn't specifically mentioning just Borderlands. I specifically mentioned Gearbox/2K. It is a valid comparison to compare Gearbox/2K with Ubisoft because both have some very considerable pull in the games industry. I'm literally agreeing with you, but just merely mentioned that 2K/Gearbox is similar to Ubisoft in that they have a lot of sway and pull yet you still complain about that.

    What I did mention was profitability when I was between BL2 and The Division. I said BL2 was probably more profitable than it. I didn't claim "BL2 sold more copies than The Division". And I didn't state it was more profitable. It was an assumption on my part that may be incorrect. But I didn't claim it as a fact. You might want to consider doing the same.

    It should be plain as day to see why your response makes little sense.

    I'd rather take Steam because last I checked, Steam friends was integrated a little bit which made joining each other easier. But the last Ubisoft game I played on Steam online was HAWX 2 so my memory on that might be off or something may have changed since.

    And here is the deal. If someone puts up some credible sources people will be easily swayed. But I'm not inclined to believe something is wrong or some is at fault without qualify proof. Innocent until proven guilty is a value well enshrined in the developed world, or at least used to be. I'd rather use reason and have a conversation than resort to being blunt and harsh but I'll have to just outright say it. That "source" you posted was a fucking joke, for the reasons detailed above. I'd never consider passing something like that around as definitive proof. You can post whatever "sources" you find but if it is low quality, questionable or vague be prepared to be called out for it.
     
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  26. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics I don't get it

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    How many play fortnight? And of those how many only play fortnight?
     
  27. sharknice

    sharknice [H]ard|Gawd

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    They took that statistic before they started selling other games.

    It's Fortnite btw.
     
  28. snowcrash

    snowcrash Gawd

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    No Steam. No purchase. That is some of the worst shit I hear all the time. And that is just the vocal few. It was how Steam became the behemoth it is today. Every time I see zealous statements like that, I wish for its demise.

    I still love Steam. Got nothing against Valve. It is the users base that pisses me off to no end. We are the biggest digital games collectors ever. Probably about 90% to 95% of games we buy are not played ever.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  29. raz-0

    raz-0 [H]ardness Supreme

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    It's comparing watermelon and fruit salad. Yeah, buying the studio out is very much akin to some of Valve's behaviors. And yes, people freaked the fuck out over steam. They just didn't point at another digital distribution model, they pointed at physical media. You may still notice the cranks coming out of the woodwork over, and over, and over STILL.

    However Epic has also been running around with sacks of money paying for exclusives. Valve did not do that that I can recall. We've only really seen it on console, and even then I'm not sure how much of the same thing we ahve seen. A lot of ocnsole exclusives are really incestuous partial ownership of studios.

    This all leads to the potential consequences of this mess. IMO they are concerning because this is all funded by massive fortnite loot. And that can evaporate if not managed well.

    1) Steam has been reliable, if EGS undermines their business model without building a reliable competing model, It can massively screw your back catalog. This would suck and would effectively put a stake through the heart of PC gaming. This is bad. The fact fire hasn't been met with fire from the multiple distribution platforms out there is not a good sign that EGS is a sustainable business model.

    2) We make morbid jokes of EA destroying developers. Well what if the sales platform could do the same? That may be what EGS is ushering in. In general, knowing how to shrink without going out of business is not a skill of most businesses. It kills a lot of them. Bumping plane loads of cash on devs in a manner that is not sustainable is potentially sabotaging them. Lets say the epic is not right, but rightish. That 30% is way too high, but 12% is way too low. You cut off the air dropped buckets of platform exclusivity cash AND reduce the developer's cut in close proximity, and you may very well damage or destroy businesses whose management expertise is making fun games and not defensive business management.

    3) The platform is limited. This can be good or bad. Part of me likes this because it means that your distribution platform is doing the absolute minimum needed to sell me a game, and thus is maximally replaceable. On the other hand, if it pushes more tasks onto the dev that cost them more money to implement in house, that could be bad for reasons similar to #2.

    4) Even if #2 and 3 above aren't fatal just marginally broken, the easiest escape hatch to bad margins through rapid shocking changes or deceptive cost shifting are sitting right there in the agreement. Use unreal engine and you save licensing costs. I mean the gaming world would be great if there was but a single engine behind everything right?
     
  30. Burticus

    Burticus [H]ardness Supreme

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    Just wait until Amazon buys Epic and it's cute little store :eek:
     
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  31. Comixbooks

    Comixbooks Ignore Me

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    Steam is fucked the thing is whenever a exclusive goes to Epic it makes Steam less valuable I have a 440.00 Steam Card balance and basically nothing to spend it on except indi titles now and Japanese stuff. I thought hey I'm build up a balance on steam so I could purchase Call of Duty games they moved and everyone else moved to Epic.
     
  32. rudy

    rudy [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Millions of people found out about PC gaming through fortnite. Steam is not their store