elp me pick best studio monitors ~ 1500$ Neuman KH 120 vs Adam A7x vs Focal CMS 50

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psyside

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Hi guys, i'm looking to buy one of this speakers, and i got some a bit specific questions about them.

Q: Usage?

A: Music listening, (no production) mostly rock and instrumental music/vocals/blues/new age, i prefer detailed sound and huge soundstage, with decent lows.

Q: Room size?

A: 5x5m

Q: DAC/Soundcard?

A: Xonar STX


Q: What part of speakers quality is most important to you?

A: AMPS and build quality, would also like to know, which from this speakers use most quality parts, and the exact models of amps, for example i heard mosfet based amps are the best, and better then PWM/regular amps.


Thanks in advance !

P.S. Do not suggest Hi-Fi setups, not interested!
 
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No sub woofer? That can be done but you will miss at least 40hz on down.

I would also consider the Dynaudio DBM50 w/ a 7.5" woofer and it is setup at an angle. This allows you to simple place it without a stand. You might want to consider a speaker pad, just to eliminate resonances. Nice and neat, sound is a treat? lol sorry.

Oh yeah, they can hit 95db cleanly. That is impressive.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...&zmam=89202644&zmas=1&zmac=2&zmap=DBM50&SID=0
 
I had a pair of Adam A5X (only real difference that I know of is the A7X has more low end) that I sold and got a pair of Neumann KH120A instead. I haven't heard the Focal CMS series but I have a good friend who likes them and likens them to the Yamaha NS-10 except they're smoother.

My impressions of the A5X is it has a wonderful high end. If you listen to a lot of acoustic music I would suggest it in a heart beat. It simply does such a great on natural sound sources. Voices I felt were slightly over hyped in the 6-8KHz range. The main reason I sold them was because I didn't like the low end at all. To me it like I was hearing the cabinet more than the speaker itself. The stereo image that they had was pretty good too. Nothing to really complain about on that behalf.

My impressions of the KH120A, which I'm listening to right now. They have a certain presence in the high end that I cannot quite put into words. The low end while only going down to ~50Hz is actually very surprising for such a small speaker. But be warned they're going to miss about an octave. They simply don't go ultra low. But for general music listening they rock. The stereo image is very impressive as well. The best way that I can describe them is they don't get in the way. They're pretty darn neutral.

Just my $0.02 on the matter.
 
Man I am glad I found this thread, since I'm kinda in the same position as you.
Small bedroom, no space for a separate amp, lots of FLAC files, looking for active monitors.

I have been lurking on gearslutz forums for a while.
Couple of things I gathered:

1) Front-ported is pretty much a must for the conditions we are in.

2) Some sort of room treatment with monitors over $1000 is desirable to avoid back wall reflections, etc. Else the point of spending $$$ is kind of lost. I'll probably get some "prettier" acoustic panels like these: http://www.acoustimac.com/acm-321-suede-acoustic-panels/ or somesuch - they come in a variety of colors and don't uglify the room.

3) A lot of music genres do not really have THAT much information below 40 Hz. Also, in a 2-way system, the bigger the woofer, the lower you have to move the crossover point, which worsens the sound (not to mention the boxes become huge). Almost all of the best regarded 2-way monitors have 5-7" woofers. Plus, big bass in a small room creates big problems. Your selection of monitors is spot on in that regard.

4) I have also been thinking about the Neumanns and Adams. I looked at Equator Audio Q8 ($500 each factory direct, used to be $1500 each MSRP) but there are complaints of DSP noise + critiques of a cubic enclosure (=> standing waves). Too bad, the coaxial driver is interesting. Another coax-driver alternative is Pelonis model 42 - not much bass but the slutz are raving about the sound clarity and imaging. An external xover/amp rack module is a great purist move, but will be a pain in a small room.

So yeah, I am kind of in analysis paralisys state and have not arrived at any concrete decision yet. I am currently without speakers and thinking that maybe I should just get something decent until I move to a better apartment, something like Equator D5 ($300/pair) which are well-liked, and then get "real" nice monitors.

In any case, the gearslutz crowd will probably give you more answers to your questions.
 
Ahriman,
While all your observations are correct, I'd like to add something. You don't have to get ported speakers. There are sealed 2-way and 3-way monitors out there. Two that I can think of off the top of my head are from Unity Audio, The Rock (2-way design) and The Boulder (3-way). They definitely cost more. My point is that you don't have to get Ported designs. There are Passive Radiator, Transmission Line, and Sealed monitors on the market that are not terribly big. The question then becomes how much do you want to spend.
 
@ Xolos, Thanks! so your saying that KH 120 are quite a bit better then the A5x right? also are they maybe to flat? i heard they are so flat that sometimes they are boring. How is the transient response?

I'm also interested in soundstage, and detailed sound, to they rock in this segment compared to A5x? thanks in advance!

@Ahriman4891 Thanks as well! nice input there, lol we got same monitor, and maybe same studio monitors soon :D
 
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One thing to remember is that speakers are highly personal things. So, all this is just my opinion on the matter. Also, something else I feel I should point out is that as a hobby I mix audio. So, a lot of my opinion on the matter comes from actually working with the speakers in that regard.

There was nothing wrong with the A5X as a speaker really. Adam has a great reputation and for good reason. My biggest complaint with the A5X was merely the low end. It had a fine "sound stage" (what I like to call stereo image). But I'll tell you what unless I was going to go really all out on a pair of speakers I don't think I could find a speaker that could render guitars so beautifully as those could.

Now, the KH120A. They have a wonderful stereo image. I seriously think the best way for me to describe these is that they sound natural. There just isn't much I can complain about with them except for the lack of that bottom octave or so.

The transient response of both monitors IMO is pretty comparable. It isn't an electrostatic that is for sure. But I haven't heard a speaker other than electrostatics have that kind of transient response, but rest assured both do a great job of rendering transients well. Now, I didn't have the A5X as long as I've had the KH120. But one thing I feel worth noting about the KH120 is that they are not immune to the issues that ports bring. At ~60Hz there is a little bit of port ringing. However, Klein + Hummel (they were bought out by Neumann but pretty much allowed to keep doing things the way they always have) are very much engineers and if you look at the waterfall plot it is clearly visible that at ~60Hz the ports lengthen the decay. In my experience I haven't really noticed it interfering with the sound at all. As for them being ultra flat. That is true, but it doesn't interfere with them sounding great at all. IMO it is what makes them sound great. Sure, for a pure enjoyment system I'd want a more inflated bass response. But really they sound great.

I would suggest you demo them all in your space and see which you like best. You may find that you love the CMS 50s. Or maybe you'll find that you love Dynaudio, or maybe you'll love Yamaha, or PMC, JBL, Genelec, Barefoot sound, etc . . .. I did a lot of reading on speakers before I went out and dropped the cash for a pair. But I also did a lot of listening. Granted not in my space, but I listened to about 20 different speakers before I made my choice on the KH120. Actually, I didn't even listen the KH120, I listened to their bigger older brethren, the Klein + Hummel O300D, and bought them based on the fact that they were supposed basically sound the same but with a little less bottom end. Sure enough that is pretty much what they were.
 
Xolos:
you are totally right, I was just talking about the budget mentioned in the OP ($1500) where the majority of monitors are ported. I should have mentioned sealed/passive radiator anyway.

Like you said, "The question then becomes how much do you want to spend" :D damn reading the enthusiast forums is dangerous as I'm sure we all know -- your perception of reality shifts and your budget starts creeping up. There are a lot of interesting options in the $3500-4500/pair range, but I'm not sure I can justify that.

psyside:
haha didn't notice you also have the same display. Every day I look at it I hope it keeps working for as long as possible, because there just isn't anything out there that would be a real upgrade at the moment.
 
Ahriman4891 said:
Xolos:
you are totally right, I was just talking about the budget mentioned in the OP ($1500) where the majority of monitors are ported. I should have mentioned sealed/passive radiator anyway.

Like you said, "The question then becomes how much do you want to spend" :D damn reading the enthusiast forums is dangerous as I'm sure we all know -- your perception of reality shifts and your budget starts creeping up. There are a lot of interesting options in the $3500-4500/pair range, but I'm not sure I can justify that.

psyside:
haha didn't notice you also have the same display. Every day I look at it I hope it keeps working for as long as possible, because there just isn't anything out there that would be a real upgrade at the moment.
Click to expand...

Couldn't put it better, i was looking at some longevity stats and inputs and looking for way to cheat the age issue, but there is no any, what i was told from one experience engineer is that even when monitor goes to sleep its not completely turned off, so i suggest you if you leave your room, for lets say more then few hours, better turn it off then leave it to sleep.

Anyway thanks for the input one more time.

@ Xolos, thanks for the detailed response!

I got Adam A3x atm, and i wonder how big of an upgrade would be A5x (A7x) maybe? is the low end all there is when you go from A5x>A7x or the stereo image and depth and clarity is going up as well?

I can audition both of them in local store, (a5x & A7x) but there is no Neuman to audition, they can be get only by order.

Now i know Adam Ax series are great, but what makes me go away from them is a bit lower grade amps. They use digital A/B - D grade, but Nueman use analog controller and A/B quality, also they use generally better internal parts, and they got no issues regarding hissing or port noise, or at least very rare, which i did had with my A3x (hiss no port noise)

Problem being, the A7x which are available are old un -fixed revision, and as far as i know, Adam charge for transport and customs in one way? and they pay the return shipping, so i would need to pay like 150$ for the shipping, because many revision1 A7x had that problem.

Other then that, regarding sound quality, i know its personal, but from my experience, my A3x do sound great and all, but i miss a bit low end, and i think at times they know to sound a bit boxy, if i can say that, (like echo effect) i'm not really good with audio expressions, new to this stuff.

If you would compare KH 120 to A5x, what is the strong points of both? if KH 120 is 10/10 is A5x at least 8/10 regarding general sound quality? thanks one more time!
 
Psyside,
Really when you're going up in a monitor line the thing that you'll notice is typically less distortion on the low end. This can have the effect of increasing the sound stage, better top end, better upper mids, etc . . .. The same thing happens in mixing as well. There might be something in the 200 - 800Hz range that is actually clouding up the 5-9KHz range. So, I think the biggest things you'd notice going from the A3X to the A5X or A7X is more or less a result of clearer low end.

You know something I've never understood are the arguments about amps. Don't take this the wrong way or anything. It is just my observation on the matter. I get that there are differences in the way amps sound and the like especially when auditioning on the same set of speakers. However, that isn't something you really get to try with active monitors due to the amp being integrated and all. In a studio monitor in a particular price range I would not worry about the differences between two amps. The speaker was designed with it in mind. I would not worry about the classes of the amps much to be honest. Just worry about the build quality.

I have not heard speakers ever that don't have some kind of hissing coming from the tweeter. I've heard some Dunlavy/Duntech/Tyler Acoustics/B&W powered by Bryston/McIntosh/Krell/Hypex amps and they still hissed. Sure it may have been insanely quiet and completely inaudible at listening distance, but they still hissed. The Neumanns hiss. The Adams hissed. I think the Neumanns are slightly quieter in that regard, but I would not count it against the Adams.

The port noise problem. IIRC the A7X should have that fixed in all of their current production models. If, however, you got one with the port chuffing I believe Adam would just send you replacement, uhhh, . . . port tubes I guess is the word. They pretty much get rid of the chuffing except for at very very high SPL, but at that point I can understand. Unless there was something actually wrong with the amp or cones I would not bother sending them in. I didn't have to deal with their customer service, but I think Adam does a good job of taking care of their customers.

Okay, bullet comparison of the A5X and KH120 in Pro/Con format.

Adam A5X
Pros:
- Brilliant high end.
- Good stereo image
- Great detail

Cons:
- Low end sounded "boxy"
- Too "bright" (highly personal this one is)

Neumann KH120A
Pros:
- Natural sounding
- Fantastic stereo image (not that A5X is bad or the likes, its just that these guys are awesome at it)
- Surprising amount of low end for a speaker of its size.

Cons:
- Port resonance right around 60Hz (it is noted in the graphs they provide, and for the most part the rest of the time domain is pretty much on point)
- Too bright (again personal, but I'm a lover of Soft Domes so anything that isn't I pretty much call it too bright lol)

I hate have to arbitrarily do this, but for a score or such for each. In their price range I'd give the A5X a solid 8/10 and the KH120A a solid 9/10.
 
Wow, Xolos fantastic posts, thanks alot man.

So basically going from A5x to A7x will generally increase the low end and offer better SQ.
About amps, where i live if something happen to the speaker, is very hard to ship it back, i heard PWM based amps are lower grade then analog controllers/AB systems.

Ok, so ill forgot about hiss.

How does the replacement works? do i have to send the speakers to them first, or what? sorry i know i ask to many stuff, but i want to make sure.

Great comparasion there, you really helped me alot, thanks one moe time bro, i hope i will get my KH 120 soon, or maybe even the A7x, but i'm little worried about my small room, and so much powerful speakers i think they are 100/150 rms which is to much, but if i get the a5x the difference won't worth, so its really hard decision. Also the Focal's are impossible to audition so i will be heading towards the KH 120, thanks one more time for the great posts!
 
Well I wouldn't call Class D amps lower quality per se. The big advantage of a Class D amp over say a Class AB is size. They're just smaller, lighter, etc . . .. That is the big advantage of them. A lot of folks like the Class T amp and all that really is is a Class D amp. Take that how you will.

SQ is going to increase but it isn't in the way you'll expect it. See, a smaller monitor such as your A3X have a hard time reproducing lower frequencies. At the very bottom end of its frequency response there is probably going to be quite a bit of distortion because the cone simply cannot reproduce those low frequencies all that well. Now, by increasing the size of that woofer by a few inches the distortion figures typically get a lot smaller in a larger pass band. This can create a subjective increase in SQ at the higher frequencies of the pass band. Not that the speaker is actually more or less accurate than before. It is simply your ear getting a cleaner low end and due to that it can create the illusion that speaker is more accurate even though the difference may only be a LF extension of 100Hz. That is very important to keep in mind.

There is a huge thread over at Gearslutz regarding the A7X and if memory serves, Adam simply sent new port hole coverings more or less and people installed them. I can't find the thread currently, but I'm sure with some Googling you can find it. The thread, however, is very long like 30 - 40 pages or something like that. Now, I would like to point out that the port problem only affected the A7X. Not the A3X, A5X, or A8X.

You'd be surprised at what a room can handle in terms of a speaker. The problem really is the size. Sure the A7X can over power your room, but the question really should be are you going to be listening at those kinds of extreme volumes and is the speaker physically too big for it? I know for example that I run my Neumann's at about half attenuation. For such small little speakers that are only rated for like 50W RMS on both the tweeter and woofer they go freakin' loud. I think the figure at 1m is like 105 or 107dB C-weighted. Which is frankly insane for such small speakers. I haven't gotten them to engage their built in limiter yet, but I'm curious as to just how loud that is going to be lol. Because right now I can easily hit 95dB at my listening position without a problem.
 
Amazing post once again. Really helpful and explained alot to me! thanks really Xolos.

I wonder if Adam would agree to let me (my friend) to fit the new flangs instead of sending them back oversea.
 
Hey guys, just to inform you i ended up ordering the A7x, they where much cheaper then the KH 120, and as far as i know they are amazing - close to KH 120 :)

Now to wait freaking 3 weeks :(
 
Congrats!

I saw the A7X in a store last week (didn't audition them), they were well-built and quite compact, you shouldn't have many issues placing them.

My own purchase is delayed because I just bought a TV after years of not owning one :)
 
thanks bud! yea, i will order Auralex mopads as well, to avoid vibrations as much as possible.

Haha, what TV you get? i guess some mid to high end model, knowing your taste in LCD's :D
 
Good call on the mopads.

I got a panasonic tc-p55vt50 plasma, after some research and seeing a bunch of TVs in stores. Supposed to match the fabled Pioneer Kuro from several years ago. Got a good deal on it too. Waiting for it to arrive along with the TV stand.

Let us know how you like the Adams when you get them. Specifically the Heil tweeter.

Happy New Year! :)
 
Hahahah i wanted to say i bet you bought Panasonic in the previous post, knew it.

Panasonic recent plasma's/LCD's TX and similar (Alpha IPS) based screens are perfection, in every possible way :) gratz man!

Anyway, i had so much bad luck, when i went to order the A7x, the last shipment was only few days ago and they sold 2 pairs, and they told me i need to wait like 2 months till they ship the new ones because of new year and other holy days, mind you they will have 1 pair, but its for the store, in order buyers to be able to test, and hear them :mad:

I'm si pissed right now, one month passed, now to wait one more....

P.S. Happy new year :)
 
Thanks :) can't wait for it to get here so I can set everything up.

That's quite some logistics issues your store has with the Adams, pretty bad. On the other hand, let this be the worst issue you have in 2013, lol.
 
Just got my A7x, omggggggg i'm blown away, so much power!!! its insane!!!! never expected to listen such a powerful sound from "small" speakers, the bass is great, dunno why people say the bass is lacking? its totally confusing to me and false...

Which kinda speak of AMP quality power/design as well, i used them for few songs at +10dB with ASIO driver sofware volume control on max, (bit perfect which max out the volume - bypass windows kernel) and no sign of any distortion! speechless!

They sound bigger, deeper, stronger, bigger soundstage, bass is impressive, and the highs are more defined.....its like night and day difference, really...

Thanks all for helping me make my choice, the A7x are amazing speakers!!!
 
Congrats on your new speakers!
The A7X are indeed nice speakers.

One thing I would strongly suggest is getting something like a KRK Ergo room optimizer for your speakers. If you think your speakers sound good now... just wait - you'll be shocked at how much better they can be after being calibrated for the room they're in.

The only real big drawback to the KRK is that it's fed via firewire, so you'll need a PC with firewire in order to do the initial setup and each subsequent calibration.
I keep an older ASUS laptop around for this. Once you've calibrated, the Ergo can run standalone without the need for a PC to be connected. But if you'd like, it can certainly be used as an external soundcard. It also has a VERY handy volume control on it to control the volume of your speakers. ....And yes, it is capable of working with a subwoofer or second pair of speakers if you should decide to add them down the road.

I believe Pioneer also has a similar product availabe. It also looks quite good.


Just my $.02 :cool:
 
These are just coming out soon but from what I hear, they are amazing. I just wanted to throw it out there, incase you ever consider upgrading or interested in what else is available. But in general, Emotiva is very well known for their high quality power amplifiers (among other things) at incredibly low prices. http://www.emotiva.com

http://emotivapro.com/products/powered_monitors/stealth8.php

Emotiva Pro Stealth 8


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Powered Studio Monitor | $749 (each)

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Focused on Exceptional Accuracy

Every Stealth monitor is the product of Emotiva Pro's quest for ultimate accuracy. That's why they're specified at much higher levels than most monitors. Our frequency response, for instance, is specified to within +/- 1.75dB over the entire bandwidth of the monitor, rather than the more common +/- 3dB. In addition, every Emotiva Pro Stealth monitor is individually measured and calibrated at the factory to within 1dB of our reference standard. The result is a monitor you can trust to reveal all the most critical details, for your most intensive work.

Exclusive Transducers, Higher Performance

A large part of the Stealth line's accuracy comes from our exclusive airmotiv™ high-frequency and low-frequency drivers. Each of these drivers, used only by Emotiva Pro, offers performance significantly greater than most conventional drivers.

Most high-frequency drivers move air by pushing it. There's only one problem with that: output is limited by the mechanical properties of the diaphragm. As excursion increases, distortion jumps dramatically. Our airmotiv high-frequency driver moves air by compression—by literally squeezing it in-between the pleats in its folded diaphragm. The result is that smaller excursions are needed for the same output, which dramatically reduces distortion. You'll hear it in the extreme clarity of the output, and the ability to handle large crescendos with aplomb.

Our airmotiv low-frequency driver provides the perfect complement to round out bass response. Curv™ woven polypropylene, combined with a rigid cast basket, copper pole, and aluminum shorting ring deliver the control and bass extension you need—in the case of the Stealth 8, down to 30 Hz. Many of our engineers use this speaker without a subwoofer!

Power to Spare

The best transducers in the world would mean nothing without exceptional power. That's why every Stealth monitor is bi-amplified—separate power amplifiers for both high- and low-frequency drivers. Bi-amplification allows us to reach SPL levels much higher than single-amp systems for the same amount of power.

The Stealth 8, for example, offers two 200W amplifiers in each monitor, for a total power of 400W RMS per monitor, or 800W per pair. This power allows us to delivers 120dB nearfield peaks for handling your most dynamic works with headroom to spare.

Audiophile-Quality Parts

At the same time, our amps are not simply monsters of power. Each is a true audiophile reference, with fully discrete design, extensive use of surface-mount parts, precision resistors and film capacitors. The transformer is a custom toroid for exceptional efficiency. Take a look inside the Stealth series monitors, and you'd swear you're looking inside a megabuck audiophile amp.

Precision Crafted Cabinetry

With the exceptional airmotiv™ drivers and audiophile amp sections, we needed a cabinet that would help us reach our goal of ultimate accuracy. This is how we created the Minimum Acoustic Signature cabinet, with a front panel CNC-milled from a solid 2" block of MDF, extensively braced, and featuring Three-Phase internal damping. The result is a striking, angular front panel that minimizes diffraction, and a solid, acoustically inert assembly that helps the drivers perform their best.

The Control You Need

In our quest for accuracy, we know that every studio is different. Depending on monitor placement, size, and overall acoustic environment, control over both high and low frequency level may be needed. That's why we included extensive contouring controls for both low and high frequencies. Low frequency tilt and cut can be adjusted, as well as high frequency tilt, over 5 discrete levels to achieve the perfect match with your environment.



Frequency Response

  • 30 Hz to 23 kHz + / -1.75 dB
  • 28 Hz to 32 kHz +0 / -6 dB
Input Connectors

  • One balanced combination connector (accepts a balanced XLR, balanced 1/4", or unbalanced 1/4" connector)
Bass Alignment
  • Low-diffraction rear-oriented slot-loaded port
Power Source
  • 120 VAC 50/60 Hz +/- 10% or
  • 230 VAC 50/60 Hz +/- 10%
  • IEC standard removable power cord
Size (each)
  • 16.5" high x 12" wide x 15" deep (420 mm x 305 mm x 380 mm)
Weight (net):
  • 41.5 pounds (19 kg)
Driver Complement
  • One 60 x 32 mm airmotiv™ high-frequency transducer
  • One 205 mm (8 inch) airmotiv™ low-frequency transducer
Amplification
  • High-frequency amplifier:
  • 200 watts RMS
  • Low-frequency amplifier:
  • 200 watts RMS
Adjustments and Calibrations
  • Gain adjustment:
  • nominal +/- 6 dB
  • Bass Tilt adjustment:
  • -2 dB, -4 dB, -6 dB at 40 Hz (starting at 1250 Hz), or fully disable low-frequency driver
  • Bass Roll Off adjustment:
  • -2 dB, -4 dB, -6 dB, or -8 dB at 40 Hz (starting at 250 Hz)
  • Treble Tilt adjustment:
  • +1 dB, -1 dB, -2 dB (above 3 kHz), or fully disable high-frequency driver
Maximum Acoustic Output (pair, short term)
  • 115 dB SPL (sine wave, @ 1 meter, on axis, radiating into half space)
  • 121 dB SPL (sine wave, @ 0.5 meter, on axis, radiating into half space)

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Thanks for the suggestion,, they do seem to look amazing, and well built, but they are to big, and i already bought my A7x :)
 
Yes, this speakers are for large rooms....i wonder if the tweeters are similar to A7x quality, btw the membrane is made from kevlar as far i can see or i'm wrong?
 
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