Eclipse's Memory purchasing guide

Discussion in 'Memory' started by (cf)Eclipse, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    yeah, i have a crucial value stick that uses 5b C that does 265mhz with 2.5-2-2 timings and a bit of voltage. i guess you got them when micron was having issues with yeilds around a year ago.

    and a general rule of thumb for figuring out the ending:
    the first number = number of chips
    first letter after that number is the package tpe, T for TSOP, F for FBGA
    2nd letter is the die revision. they might not have done this a while back, but now it's C, D or G for 5b C, 5b D and 5b G respectively. there is also other kinds, like K for samsung UCCC in the 1gb sticks.
    the numbers/letters on the end.. well i guess there are pcb revisions, but i'm not certain :p
     
  2. headless

    headless Gawd

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    Hey Eclipse -- great post, thanks for taking the time. I just so happen to be about to purchase some RAM to replace my old school 2x512 corsair tccd. I'm looking at crucial (because i love you) and have found this:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16820146578

    I looked at the image and find (oh joy) it doesn't have any of the letter/number combinations you guys have been describing -- it is "BL12864Z503.16TD"
    Any idea what this RAM is and how it fits into the grand scheme of things? I'd like to buy some stuff that has 'room to grow' though my current mobo is not a great o/cer anyway (i do however have a 3200+ venice running @ 2.77ghz. on it..)

    Edit: so from your last post... 16.TD would be 16 chips, TSOP type packaging (whats that mean? :D You mentioned earlier it's better than the FBGA...), D revision...
     
  3. HighwayAssassins

    HighwayAssassins [H]ardness Supreme

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    Good article. Memory is the one spot of computers that I dont know tooo well, and I know most stuff in this article, but there were a few new things...

    Keep it up (cf).
     
  4. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    thanks guys


    headless: the 1gb ballistix is double sided 5b D. a crucial rep has told me that crucial will use ONLY micron chips in the ballistix, so you don't have to worry about getting some UCCC or somethign silly like that :D
     
  5. ashmedai

    ashmedai [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Part of why I hate heat spreaders...
     
  6. MC FLMJIG

    MC FLMJIG [H]ardness Supreme

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    Seems like the 1gb Crucial is back to .16T.

    The patriot gig is also at 127 at ZZF.

    G Skill also seems to be in decent stock now at NEWEGG and Chief.

    BTW does ballistix make 1gb anymore? Pc 3200? Can't seem to find any. I've seen the ddr 500 ones but they are they good? 3 4 4 8 can be obtained with "most" ram.

    Another. If you throw G Skill into the situation, which do you think would be a good 1GB or 1 GBx2 solution with oc and/or agressive timings factored in. You mentioned Patriot and Crucial before just curious

    Learned so much from this thread that I was able to get my Geil Ultra's up to 250 FSB which I wasn't able to before. Very much thanking you!!!
     
  7. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    there was never pc3200 1gb ballistix :p
    also.. at newegg, the ending has always been .16T for the 1gb value stick, even when it was definitly FBGA

    also, i made this before the g.skill came out, and i'm really busy trying to get my dfi nf4 ultra-d working.. ironicly enough it's having memory issues. the g.skill, mushkin and ocz 1gb ddr500 sticks all use samsung uccc, which the crucial value 1gb sticks currently have. the ballistix is micron 5b D
     
  8. ZigZagZeppelin

    ZigZagZeppelin 2[H]4U

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    nice helpful thread, Eclipse.
    :)
     
  9. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    thanks! i need to update it when i get a chance though. this opteron is sucking up my life :p
     
  10. MC FLMJIG

    MC FLMJIG [H]ardness Supreme

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    I finally got rid of my Geils and I wanted to buy a gig stick but opted for 2 Ballistix' instead. I was looking at those and the Patriot's but the Crucials have REALLY come down in price. You really should get a check from them!!! :p

    On your website testing the Ballistix. Did you use dividers to get to the OC? I don't see you mentioning you did. Neither on the Crucial 1 gig.

    I'm looking to upgrade the comp I have a t work to and on that one I'm looking for a gig stick. Any reco's? I know you busy on that new Opti so I see why you haven't posted the update on the memory. :D

    Thnx

    F L M
     
  11. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    when i overclock to test the limits of ram, it will always be set to 200mhz (1:1) :D

    i should ask them about getting a bit of a cutback for how much i recommend crucial. i don't think they give a damn though :p
     
  12. MC FLMJIG

    MC FLMJIG [H]ardness Supreme

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    Hmm, just put the ballistix' in and started testing these puppies. They are single sided as they say .8t. Im doing the OC as you recommended on your thread and so far as follows:

    Mobo = 350 Max
    3k+ = 280 Max (weird no matter how much juice I put in that is top)
    Haven't tested memory yet. Are they best tested at same time or individually?

    I did some quick playing around and did some OCing

    Stock OC is looking bleh on 2.8v = 206 - 210 :(
    2.5 2 2 no matter if at 2.8v (my highest AN8 Abit) 234 FSB

    Not getting the same results as you did on your site but I'm not done. Let's see if the sticks are "good" before I keep going.

    I've learned soo much from your threads. Easy to understand and very unselfish of you guys to take so much time and help us NOOBS out :D .
     
  13. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    yeah, .8TD doesn't seem to oc quite as well as the .16TG at tighter timings sadly. you should be able to rip with 3-3-3 though :cool:
     
  14. MC FLMJIG

    MC FLMJIG [H]ardness Supreme

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    Ok.

    Mobo is capable of 350 FSB
    CPU = 275 Stock and 280 @ 1.425

    Memory does 292 @ 2.5 3 3 10 @ 2.8 went through test 5x (#5)

    Even though I'm doing 250 FSB, 9x multi windows won't start. I'm a bit confused. I'm following your thread but having some issues here. if memory is stable at 292 fsb, mobo is more than capable and the CPU can do 270FSB shouldn't it work stable at 250?

    You were right on the flying but it started at 2.5 3 3!!!

    BTW u still having issues with your board??? Still taking trips to library?

    Sorry for all the questions but you seem eager to help so I take a bit of advantage :D
     
  15. MC FLMJIG

    MC FLMJIG [H]ardness Supreme

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    I need to get my butt to sleep!!! :p

    I raised the latency to 3 and am at 273 x9 = 2.4Ghz :D

    I really wanted the 2.5 latency on the ram but hey, can't complain.

    3 3 3 10 yand ou wont believe the voltage..... 2.6!!!
    If my chip wasn't holding me back I could probably do 300fsb with these ballistx at 3 3 3.

    Good call on these E. Thanks!!! :cool:

    Now if I could get my hands on an Opti....... :)

    Hope your board starts working soon!!!
     
  16. Vulcanworlds

    Vulcanworlds Limp Gawd

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    hey eclipse(or anyone) just wondering if you're running or have seen ran(grammer?) 2x512mb crucial ballistix pc3200 with a dfi lanparty nfd ut(or ultra) and your operton 144 what overclocks/timings are you getting out of those things? bc im drawn between those and OCZ gold series pc3200.
     
  17. CCUABIDExORxDIE

    CCUABIDExORxDIE 2[H]4U

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    id say get the OCZ gold series, they will probably serve you better then Ballistix in this case.
     
  18. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    most likely, unless you need high ram speeds for whatever reason ;)
     
  19. MC FLMJIG

    MC FLMJIG [H]ardness Supreme

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    I have a question for you Eclipse. We all know Crucial is the best Memory co. :p
    In your opinion what would you say are the top 2nd tier and 3rd tier companies and if you could name 3 or 4 in each category.

    I know that a trashy company could actually have a great product and a overall decent company might have junk in one of their lines. That's why I'm asking overall.

    Thanks value your opinion.

    1) Crucial :D
    2)
    a
    b
    c

    3)
    a
    b
    c
     
  20. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    hmmm, that's a tough one.

    i think i'd put companies ocz, mushkin, kingston, g.skill, patriot, geil and *cringe* corsair into the second teir... the ones that cater to enthusiasts

    the brands like wintec, twinmos (they have a few gems if you're lucky though), viking, pny i'd put in the bottom. sometimes they do have good stuff, but you have to be careful about what you guy. twinmosSP is a perfect example of this before it got discontinued.
     
  21. Jesus_Faction

    Jesus_Faction [H]ard|Gawd

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    twinmos SP's got discontinued?
     
  22. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    a long time ago, yeah :(
     
  23. morpheus9394

    morpheus9394 Limp Gawd

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    (cf)Eclipse - I am planning to change my Corsair 4x512 3200 for 2x1GB on my MSI NEO2 board to go with my shiny new Opteron 148 as the memory is holding back my overclock.
    I read your memory guide and you recommended Crucial Ballistic. Is that still that case?
     
  24. CCUABIDExORxDIE

    CCUABIDExORxDIE 2[H]4U

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    if your gonna get 2gigs, get 2 gig sticks. the performance hit from 2t is NOT pretty.
     
  25. morpheus9394

    morpheus9394 Limp Gawd

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    Am I right in saying that you can never get 1T from 4 sticks?
     
  26. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    not on your board no. also, if i recommend something else, i will edit the guide to accurately reflect my opinion :cool:
     
  27. morpheus9394

    morpheus9394 Limp Gawd

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    What would you recommend? :D
     
  28. Jesus_Faction

    Jesus_Faction [H]ard|Gawd

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    i can run @ 1T with 4x512 with the newest bios on my dfi ultra-d
     
  29. CCUABIDExORxDIE

    CCUABIDExORxDIE 2[H]4U

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    show me screen shots including sandra and memtest. then ill believe you.
     
  30. MC FLMJIG

    MC FLMJIG [H]ardness Supreme

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    Hey Eclipse what about these...

    G Skill, 1GB and same price as crucials... baby blue heatspreaders too... yea i know.

    Ya did say G's are good.

    I've seen a decent amount of 1GB ram come out lately... revision time soon?
     
  31. Jesus_Faction

    Jesus_Faction [H]ard|Gawd

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    i have a venice too
    so i dont think that should be too unbelievable
     
  32. ninjastyle

    ninjastyle n00b

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    This is a nice guide, eclipse. Recently I've been pushing my Ballistix (2x512) as far as I can, and they suprised me. I always thought they were no good after 233Mhz, but since I got a DFI board and experimented more with various dividers / multi's, I found it's this old Clawhammer 3200+ of mine that seems to crap out somewhere just above 2.3Ghz as far as I can tell. It is a CG model, 1MB L2, 2.0Ghz at stock ... blah ... you know the rest.

    OK, so the best OC I got from my RAM was 287Mhz. Not bad at all. This was at 3-4-4-8, 1T and 3.0V. I disregarded that overclock because I'd rather not loosen the CAS any further, plus my RAM is happy with CAS 2.5 up to something like 280Mhz. Now I'm using it at 252Mhz, 2.5-2-2-5 and 2.9V. It seems solid, passes Super Pi 32M easily and is running very sweet. This is a 24/7 overclcock, and I have hit something like 257Mhz with the same timings but it gets unstable and fails Pi pretty quick. I just want to get this solid at 256 x 9, then I can stop messing with it and get on with my life!

    If you don't mind, could you advise me on how to keep timings as tight as possible but loosen up a few things to get it stable at 256? As I said, my CPU craps out somewhere around 2.33Ghz and is limiting the RAM somewhat, but this RAM can really fly, and at 256 x 9 this puts my CPU at 2304Mhz, which it should be able to do without any problems (if I can just get the RAM timings spot on). Below is my current settings as seen via A64 Tweaker.

    By the way, how come you always seem to recommend a tRAS of 10? I get better performance using 5 in all benchmarks, but the difference is fairly minimal. Thanks for your time, and once again thanks for a good guide, very nicely done, but I kind of wish I'd found it earlier. :)

    [​IMG]

    Oh yeah, the basics of my system...

    A64 Clawhammer 3200+ [CG] + Arctic Cooling Freezer 64
    DFI LP UT nF3 250Gb [BIOS 05-04-05]
    2*512MB Ballistix PC3200 (with getto mounted fan from stock A64 cooler blowing directly onto RAM)
    Tagan TG480-U01
    Wave Master case (the slightly-more-classy black one) which does a pretty nice job with temps.
     
  33. CCUABIDExORxDIE

    CCUABIDExORxDIE 2[H]4U

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    its not a CPU limitation, its a Mobo limitation. you need an ULTRA high drivestrength, like 15, to get ddr400 1t. its not CPU anymore, the RDX200 and Expert from DFI can do it.

    i still want screenies, but whatever.
     
  34. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    for some reason, 10 almost always worked better for me. *shrug* :D

    anyhow, that's pretty well tweaked out. i see two options for hitting 257mhz:
    3.0 or 3.1v
    trp set to 3
     
  35. ninjastyle

    ninjastyle n00b

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    OK, gonna mess with it some more and maybe bump up the volts.

    Another question though: If using a tRAS of 10 and a tRP of 3, should I set the tRC to 13? I know it'll work at 8 or 9 just great, so I'm wondering if setting tRAS to 10 is really a good idea at all, because according to "theory", I'd end up loosening 3 timings (tRAS, tRC and tRFC) quite a bit when maybe it's not necessary. However, if I'm running a tRAS of 5 and a tRP of 3, this is means my tRC should be set to 8, which is how it is right now. I guess I should just go play with various setting and see what happens. Only thing is, data corruption can occur very slowly and without you even really knowing about it, so I wanna play it safe. Yet a tRAS of 5 is also, in theory, too short and could also corrupt data, as tRAS also should be worked out using the formula tRCD + CAS Latency + 2 or more cycles as a minimum.

    How is your Ballistix set up for tRC and tRFC? A screenshot of your A64 Tweaker setting would be good, but if I'm being a pain in the ass, let me know!

    From Adrian Wong's site:

    (tRC) = minimum row active time (tRAS) + row precharge time (tRP). Therefore, it is important to find out what the tRAS and tRP parameters are before setting the row cycle time. If the row cycle time is too long, it can reduce performance by unnecessarily delaying the activation of a new row after a completed cycle. Reducing the row cycle time allows a new cycle to begin earlier. However, if the row cycle time is too short, a new cycle may be initiated before the active row is sufficiently precharged. When this happens, there may be data loss or corruption. For optimal performance, use the lowest value you can, according to the tRC = tRAS + tRP formula. For example, if your memory module's tRAS is 7 clock cycles and its tRP is 4 clock cycles, then the row cycle time or tRC should be 11 clock cycles. However, if the row cycle time is too short, a new cycle may be initiated before the active row is sufficiently precharged. When this happens, there may be data loss or corruption.”
     
  36. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    yes, but according to that theory, trc should be tras + 2 or something like that, and trfc should be trc + tras?
    either way, i just tweak to get the most bandwidth for the mhz.

    i susprisingly don't have an a64tweaker shot anywhere around of my ballistix. there's only two things i can really think of that cou be tweaked because they might not be in their "optimal" range:
    Max Async Latency - try 7ns ;)
    Tref.....yeah, try em all. i found something like 47xx at the end of the list in the DFI's bios worked well with my s754 newark. never got the chance to tweak hardcore for this opteron.. maybe in a week or so
    Dram Drive and dram data drive strength. my ballistix liked level 1 the most, though level 3 was close. the evens were bad ;)
     
  37. ninjastyle

    ninjastyle n00b

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    OK, after much tweakery I decided to leave it at 250Mhz. This seems like a good compromise because I can keep great timings. DDR500 @ 2.5-2-2-5 is nice enough for me, plus all other settings pretty much at their tightest. CAS Latency is one of the few settings that was changed, and the difference of a few more Mhz but looser timings isn't truely worth the difference according to every benchmark I've tried. I'm still blown away by my RAM. This is a nice suprise you see, I never realized it's full potential until I bought a DFI board.

    Anyway. Max Async works well at 7ns, thanks. I was under the impression that setting it to 7 would make the machie crash, but this only happened when setting it via A64 Tweaker. Setting it in BIOS doesn't cause a problem, though.
     
  38. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    yeah, there are some changes that are stable, but a64tweaker doesn't like... like i've only been able to change the cas latency.. twice? it normally just locks up the rig. changing the divider sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, usually depends on how tweaked out i have stuff.

    also.. tref isn't really reported right :(
     
  39. MC FLMJIG

    MC FLMJIG [H]ardness Supreme

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  40. (cf)Eclipse

    (cf)Eclipse Freelance Overclocker

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    Tras is the mininum ras active time.. basically, if can be closed instantly, but if there are other things that require the ras to be open, it won't close :)