e6600 overclock and lapping.

[Reza]

Lately i've been looking into overclocking my cpu (e6600) I picked up a 260 and while i can see the gain, i still feel like my computer is bottlenecking. I get a 3DMark06 score of about 11500 and i only game at 1400 x 900 . My rig is in my sig.

But back on track, i've never overclocked a cpu before so i've been reading the [H] guide and i've decided to lap it before i start. I have the Sunbeam CCF and my idle temps are anywhere from 28c to 35c depending on room temp and what my pc is doing. Are these normal temps for a stock e6600?! (also i think i have to much AS5 on there) I've read so many guides to applying AS5 but whats the best way for the CCF? Well i have several questions but i'll start with these. Thanks.

 

[BillParrish]

its load temps that matter, load up orthos or OCCT and tell us what happens.

There is no "best way" and it is not heatsink specific. What counts is the resulting "footprint". After using whatever method floats your boat, and there are zillions of posts on "how to apply thermal compound" what really matters is that after you try a method you have a very thin layer that covers the entire IHS (intergrated heat spreader - the metal looking top of the cpu) with no voids (bare spots) and no extra gushing out the sides. Several methods including the one on AS web site do no provide that "total coverage" (line down the middle or the grain of rice in the middle methods). This can be debated until the cows come home but thermal transfer depends on surface area as one the most important factors in the equations and maximizing the surface area for heat transfer both by lapping for flatness (shiny is not the primary goal) and total IHS coverage are in my opinion critical. Next is sufficient clamping force - a gentle wiggle and the heatsink should not move a millimeter.

 

[crawlgsx]

Are you overclocking the GTX260? It is a massive overclocker and it makes a world of difference.

I just lapped my first CPU (q9550) and it made no difference what so ever. I also lapped my heatsink (Sunbeam Core contact) and it also made no difference what so ever.

Your idle temps seem very nice (if those temps are with everest, real temp, core temp).

But like mentioned above, it is load temps that are what matter. Download Prime95 or Orthos and beat on it for a while and watch temps carefully.

 

[Reza]

Ok, so load temps are 44c-46c i've been using real temp for all my temp readings. Yes i'm overclocking my 260 (specs in my sig). Aren't these the kind of temps i'd want on my overclocked cpu? Not just my stock clocks? I still plan on lapping my cpu so i hope that helps. But i'm pretty sure your not supposed to lap any HDT coolers!!! The heat pipes are thin and will be more likely to break. I read that with HDT heatsinks you need to take special precautions as far as the TIM goes. I jusr wondered if anyone found this helpful.

 

[crawlgsx]

If those temps are orthos/prime load they are nice and low, I would feel free to clock your CPU higher.

I am extremely jealous, My idle temps are close to that :-D.

 

[owcraftsman]

When I ran a E6600 it was in the 60c range under 100% Prime95 load 63c high and that ws considered acceptable. I'd kick that thing up a bit.

 

[Reza]

Great! thanks for all who gave feedback. I'll start working on overclocking it soon. I still have to lap it so we'll see if that gives me any gain. Plus i have a HAF 932 on the way so that might also help my temps. I'll post back soon with pics and my new results.

 

[hdnut]

I recommend not lapping the CPU unless the temps are in the stratosphere range after it has been overclocked. Overclock the CPU first, stress test and monitor temps, then decide whether or not if it actually requires lapping. With the Sunbeam CCF, I doubt you will need to do so even after overclocking. As long as you're below 60c (my personal max temp would be 65c) at load, you should be good to go.

Also, stress test using Small FFTs in Orthos. It is more effective in stressing the CPU.

 

[crawlgsx]

I recommend not lapping the CPU unless the temps are in the stratosphere range after it has been overclocked. Overclock the CPU first, stress test and monitor temps, then decide whether or not if it actually requires lapping. With the Sunbeam CCF, I doubt you will need to do so even after overclocking. As long as you're below 60c (my personal max temp would be 65c) at load, you should be good to go.

Also, stress test using Small FFTs in Orthos. It is more effective in stressing the CPU.

Why would you recommend NOT lapping the cpu?

Only reason I can assume is warranty?

It is worth it even if you don't get a drop in temps, just for reassurance. Some people see a big difference, some see none.

I have a q9550 that I lapped the day it arrived, as well as my Core Contact freezer.

 

[Zero82z]

It is worth it even if you don't get a drop in temps, just for reassurance.

If a CPU is running within the safe temperature range, then it isn't worth it to lap it, since there would be no benefit from doing so. The temperature might be reduced a bit, but that really doesn't make much of a difference.

 

[hdnut]

Why would you recommend NOT lapping the cpu?

Lapping for the sake of just lapping isn't the [H] thing to do. Plus, I never stated never to lap, only do so if you're temps require it.

Only reason I can assume is warranty?

It is worth it even if you don't get a drop in temps, just for reassurance. Some people see a big difference, some see none.

I don't understand how it could be reassuring if you perform lapping but see no improvement. You just did all the work for nothing and voided the warranty.

As you stated yourself, it may not result in drop in temps. How can all that work be productive if it produces no results? This is not to say that it will or not, but lapping should not for performed for mild overclocking or for a CPU that has not been overclocked at all. If your temperatures are high at stock or at mild overclock, the smart thing to do would be to troubleshoot the cause of the high temperature (for example: poor airflow, poor cable management, improperly seated cooler, poor thermal paste, etc.) before deciding to lap.

Again, lapping should be a last resort effort, after you expended all other possible cooling options, to improve temperature that is reaching critical range. If your cooling is sufficient, which they are in most cases, you do not need to lap, especially for mild overclock.

I have lapped CPU's, but I do so only if they require it.

 

[Reza]

Lapping for the sake of just lapping isn't the [H] thing to do. Plus, I never stated never to lap, only do so if you're temps require it.

I completely understand where your coming from with the whole not lapping thing and i can understand why someone wouldn't want to do it unless it was necessary. A friend of mine pretty much even told me i was stupid for wanting to do so at all.

But the part i'm having trouble with is the "Lapping for the sake of just lapping isn't the [H] thing to do.".

Really? I see a lot of people here on [H] lap for the hell of it, just in case it will lower their temps and give a little more headroom when overclocking. I know not everyone here on [H] is an overclocking enthusiasts and that fine! But when i think about the contact between the lapped copper of the cpu with those 4 copper heatpipes from the CCF on top of it and the copper to copper heat transfer, it almost makes me [H]ard.

So, i guess in my mind things like lapping the cpu are the [H] thing to do! lol

 

[psyshack]

DO NOT LAP THE CPU! Unless there is a problem with the heat spreader dipping or bowing up. You can check this with a straight edge.

I did lap my E6600 because the middle of the heat spreader was low. It helped with temps. But did nothing for the OC. And the lap only dropped 2c off the max load temps.

Long time daily 100% load for this cpu is 3.14 ghz @ 1.352v. It will go higher. Both cores loaded with F@H 53 to 55c across the cores. Hyper 48 cooler with a high speed 92mm fan.

Never lap first then OC!

 

[Reza]

Never lap first then OC!

Why?

 

[Riccochet]

Why?

This.

If you do not care about your warrantly, and on a Core2 I wouldn't, lapping takes the IHS completely out of the equation from the get-go. If you think you might kill your chip OC'ing it lapping is the last thing you should be worried about doing.

I lap my procs. Or used to take the IHS off completely(S939 era). I know, 100%, that my heatsink and IHS will mate up nicely requiring very little TIM.

Besides, a Core2 will throttle itself down with a 2-3c delta of Tjmax. You're not going to kill it with temps. Keep your voltage under 1.5 and you don't have to worry about that either.

I will say this, I usually put the proc through a good amount of stress before lapping and OC'ing. At least I know the chip can handle itself at stock.

 

[psyshack]

Why?

Shaking Head.

Lapping is never the first thing you do when launching into a OC. If the IHS is badly wrapped maybe. IHS's are getting more level as time goes on. As well as sink & block base's. Get a straight edge out,,, and check the IHS and cooler. Note if there is a issue. TIM it up and get to stress testing the ram. Find your top end there. Then get after the cpu with a lower cpu multi. See what it will offer. Play with voltages at both stages. Then take the two and make a good OC. Tune it,, play with it. See what you came up with.

The hell with warranty's and such. Soon as you OC the warranty is gone. Its very rare that a lap will do much if anything at all. And If not done right, you can really jack up a cpu.

Look,,, In the old days of OC'ing XT's, 286, 386, 486 class cpus you had to lap them. The way the top of the cpus finished off in production looked like the Ozark Hills. Heat was a huge issue. We made our sinks out of old Amp heat sinks, chunks of copper, anything we could get our hands on. But even then lapping was a well thought out action. I remember buying my first 486 Dx 66 cpu. $600 out the door. Sure the price dropped over time. But that was a chunk of change. But it was state of the art back then. I could only get it to 80 mhz. Lapped it and went to a max of 110 mhz and then settled at 100 mhz for the rest of its life. Heat was the issue. Heat was causing the cpu to not clock. It was all but ready to let the smoke out. Once lapped a long with the sink. All was good with temps cooler than they were at stock speeds out of the box.

So why don't you check out how flat your gear is. OC it and share the temps with us. Then lap it if its warranted.

 

[Reza]

Well, i feel like my question still hasn't been answered. My question is, why shouldn't i lap my cpu before i overclock it? I don't see what that would hurt? I see people do this all the time. Also i don't have a warranty on my e6600. But it looks to me like everyone's saying find the max stable overclock (before lapping), back it off a bit, and then lap it just to help temps? That makes sense.

I really don't think i'm going to mess up my cpu. As long as i make sure i know what i'm doing and take extra care while doing it. Everyone has to start somewhere. Plus i'm not worried about killing my chip oc'ing it. I'm not going to push it that far. I just want the lowest temps i can get. I want it flat and i want a copper to copper heat transfer with light TIM to fill any small gaps in the cooler.

P.S. i have the Sunbeam CCF http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835207004

 

[Riccochet]

Look,,, In the old days of OC'ing XT's, 286, 386, 486 class cpus you had to lap them.

What? Do you even know what you are talking about? 8088, 286, 386, 486, P1, PPro's, P2, P3 didn't come with IHS's. IHS wasn't introduced until P4's and Athlon64's. Even some of the early Operton 14x's didn't have IHS's. Heatsinks themselves weren't heavily used until the Pentium Pro era, even then some were heatsinkless, ala the PPro180.

 

[Zero82z]

My question is, why shouldn't i lap my cpu before i overclock it?

Because if you end up not being limited by temperatures, then it will have been pointless to lap it in the first place. Although it's not a big deal for you since you don't have a warranty on your CPU, for someone who does have a warranty, it means that they could end up voiding it for nothing.

 

[Riccochet]

I can't remember the last time I, or anyone I know, for the life of my IT career that had to warranty exchange a processor. Not saying people don't, but that's mostly due to being misinformed and making haphazzard decisions when OC'ing. If you thoroughly test the proc prior to OC'ing it, it's safe to assume the proc is in good working order at it's stock speed. Anything more is a crapshoot, which we all know. I still buy retail procs exclusively, but not for the warranty. I don't like the risk of getting a pull.

 

[Zero82z]

I can't remember the last time I, or anyone I know, for the life of my IT career that had to warranty exchange a processor. Not saying people don't, but that's mostly due to being misinformed and making haphazzard decisions when OC'ing. If you thoroughly test the proc prior to OC'ing it, it's safe to assume the proc is in good working order at it's stock speed. Anything more is a crapshoot, which we all know. I still buy retail procs exclusively, but not for the warranty. I don't like the risk of getting a pull.

Well, I like to have a warranty on my hardware, even if I don't expect to ever have to use it.

 

[psyshack]

What? Do you even know what you are talking about? 8088, 286, 386, 486, P1, PPro's, P2, P3 didn't come with IHS's. IHS wasn't introduced until P4's and Athlon64's. Even some of the early Operton 14x's didn't have IHS's. Heatsinks themselves weren't heavily used until the Pentium Pro era, even then some were heatsinkless, ala the PPro180.

Just because there is no IHS does not mean you can't lap.

 

[Riccochet]

Just because there is no IHS does not mean you can't lap.

Why would you lap silicone? And for what? If the proc didn't require a heatsink, that defeats the purpose. Those procs that had exposed cores, ie: P2's, P3's, Celerons, A-XP's you couldn't lap. You can't lap the core.

Please link to one example of lapping a heatsinkless processor, or an older exposed core processor.

 

[Reza]

Please link to one example of lapping a heatsinkless processor, or an older exposed core processor.

I second this, i've never heard about anyone doing this and i'd like to see it done.

 

[Zero82z]

Why would you lap silicone?

First of all, it's silicon, not silicone. Big difference there. Anyway, older x86 CPUs did not have a silicon contact surface. IIRC, it was ceramic. The dies were not exposed, so they could be safely lapped without damaging anything. The first Intel chips with exposed dies were the Pentium IIs.

 

[psyshack]

I second this, i've never heard about anyone doing this and i'd like to see it done.

Its just like lapping now days except we used true diamond grit sanding sheets and a lot of soapy water. Modified a cpu tray holder to hold the cpu and keep the pins straight. And for non removable cpu's. I use the tape off the cpu area with with thick electrical tape. then tape the whole board up in a plastic trash bag. Then use a piece of milled tool steel slightly bigger than the cpu about 3" long with the diamond paper to work the cpu. Then wash up the area with alcohol. And clean the board as needed. a blower drier came in handy.

And for the heat sink/fan less poster. You OC a old CPU you best cool it. They also used a lot of power for such slow wafers.

OOO the good old days when OC'ing was fun. And then there were the carbon arc lights used to read board traces.

 

[InvisiBill]

Well, i feel like my question still hasn't been answered. My question is, why shouldn't i lap my cpu before i overclock it?

In your case, I guess there's no reason not to lap it. For most people, the big reasons are warranty and that it could very well be a complete waste of time. As others have stated, it could also make things worse if you do it incorrectly.

After you've spent all that time lapping, there are three possible outcomes. 1.) It's worse - you wrecked your CPU or just managed to make it less flat. Obviously not a good outcome. 2.) It's the same - you didn't break anything but it's no cooler either. No harm, just some wasted time. 3.) It's better - your lapping improved the contact and made it run cooler. Desired outcome.

Most people wait to see if lapping is really needed before putting in the time and risk to actually do it. If you really want to do it, just go ahead and do it. Assuming you do it correctly, the worst that will happen is you'll waste some time for nothing.

 

[Reza]

Just to show the difference, these are my idle and load temps since i got my HAF.