Dual pumps one loop?

[Top Nurse]

you can do it, if you have the probes installed and connected. i don't know for a fact if TN has the probes and is paying attention to what they are telling her.

Why is it everone thinks that I am a scatter brain? I actually have 5 on the Innovatek and 1 of the Aqua Computer in-line temp probes. I intend to use them all and one of them will be modified to monitor ambient temps. The Aquaero can monitor up to 6 temp monitoring devices and control fans through the use of 4 fan headers. Assuming you know what you are doing you can even run multiple fan units off the same header. I can also program up to four different fan speed parameters for turning off, turning on, increasing, and decreasing fan speeds. I also have the equipment to monitor up to two different flows in my system as well. Hell, I have better diagnostic and control hardware/software for watercooling than many of the review sites (ProCooling excepted) I have come across lately.

One of the reasons I seem to propose some outlandish water cooling setups is because I have the hardware and software to completely monitor what is going on. I really don't care what conventional wisdom dictates because when you got this kind of stuff you can play around and try out all kinds of exotic design parameters

If you are interested in what the Aquaero can do then here is the manual. A couple of changes have been made recently: No more PWM of the fans as it is now back to analog. Fan header 4 can be reconfigured to use as a 2nd flowmeter port. New OS and firmware along with the AquaSuite software allows for everything mentioned plus way more features than you could only imagine.

 

[wwparrish]

HOLY CRAP !!! what did I do !

"who was evidently astounded and visibly upset that my fan controller and temp/flow monitoring equipment cost more than his whole water cooling system."

Astounded yes, visibly upset no. Jeez! As an engineer with 20+ years experience I make an extreamly good salary but am a cheap SOB and I tend to like simple elegant solutions. Thats all there was to it.

I made my comment and thats the end of it and I was not the least put at at topnurses reply and I completely agree with the comment as well. If topnurse likes all those bells and whistles fine, it is (or used to be anyway) a free country and frankly if topnurse works as hard as most nurses I know, and has to put up with !!!!!!!! doctors that spend 3 min with a patient and dont listen to what the nurse who typically has a better handle on the patients needs, she deserves every dime she makes and can spend it any damn way she wants to any where she wants to.

Compared to most professions, hers is a "for the good of others" one and to attack her for the social/economic woes of the world is pretty low. I know a draft dodging, silver spoon sucking intellectually challenged guy in Washington your comments would be better directed to.

 

[Toonage]

TN's proposed setups have great interest to me as I have about 85% of the same components and the same case. Cathar's suggestion gave me encouragement to run the pumps in series for a single loop (1x AquaAero 1046 mounted high in an Aquabay w/Aquatube, 1048 regular mounted low) with the 1048 getting 'rammed' and doing the main pushing through the system (cpu,2xGfx,NB,Aquatube,3xDrives possibly). (1) Logic tells me I could place the 1048 pretty much anywhere feasable(distance) in the case since it'd be a straight shot from the AquaAero1046 to the intake of the 1048. Am I thinking right? (2) As to the front/lower single 120 rad in the HD area: I was thinking to mount 2 fans in push-pull, having removed all the HD racks and moving one set rearward enough for fan clearance. Would the air be hot enough coming off the rad to actually decrease cooling of the (3- 1xIDE, 2xRaptors) drives? Hydropaks are a consideration which makes the above question somewhat moot, but I'm thinking air only for the drives at the moment.The dual 80mm rad is a clean deal in the v2000, but I already have an Evo240 and may mount it low pulling air from the left/back side of the case and just mounting the grille on the sidepanel. BTW Top Nurse: Have you noticed that you can flip & reverse the rear PSU/fan mounting plate so as to put the PSU up against the center divider to give additional mounting/placement options in the rear bottom area. (3) Where best to put an AC flowmeter in a 2 pump/single loop setup?

 

[DamienThorn]

Who the hell cares what they think? They got into this mess in the first place because they borrowed money that they couldn't pay back. It's not any of the "wealthy" countries problems to fix their infrastructure! The best thing we could do is to wipe out their debt and refuse to lend them a dime till they fix their own problems. Might take a war, famine, or other nasty business to shake them up enough that they decide to change things for the better. My personal opinion is that the IMF should just write off most of Africa as a lost cause. And in case your wondering I am not a Republican

Regarding taking borrowed money that they couldn't pay back: if your family were starving, and someone came up to you and offered some cash so that you could feed you parents and children, well, I'd expect that you'd take the money and hope that you could pay them back. Few people would make another choice, and in the case of 3rd world governments, this is what essentially happened. Countries offered a "hand-up" and the impoverished countries could either take the money and suffer stupid interest charges, or let their people die. It wasn't much of a choice, and they made the best one that they could in their situation.

Now, why were they in such a state to begin with? Why, that would be because of colonialism, of course! When colonial forces fled, the third world a massive vacumn was left being, which led to a resumption of "native conflicts" that are generally the result of the "natives" buying into the doctrine of the Other that was spread by colonial forces.

You see, the way that colonialism worked was to isolate one group, and homogenize the collection of differences of that group, to bind them together. As a result, you didn't have to worry about treating different peoples terribly differently, they were all savages, or in early stages of European development. The Other acted to reinforce the sense of European superiority, and demonstrated that the European methods of governance were superior to the barbaric methods of governance that existed prior to their arrival. In constructing the Other, the Other's history had to be developed, and this history had to be developed in accordance with the clearly superior European standards. Since the native peoples could rarely read, let alone write, in the language of the country that colonized them, the Europeans wrote the histories. Incorporated into these histories were a host of false/misrepresentative anayses of the colonized nation prior to the arrival of the Europeans. It is out of the European histories that hosts of the "native differences" are born, but this birth is based on false history, false in the sense that it is Eurocentric and biased against the native culture.

Now, it is obvious to all of us that the colonial seperation of the Self and Other are abstract at best; in both groups there are hosts of differences. I mean, the people of India, and the people of Haiti had different issues confronting them, with both groups composed of a multitude of conflicting political, social, economic, philosophical, and gender narratives, to name a few. Nevertheless, colonialism acted to subvert all of these differences under a single heading, and it is out of this guiding metric that the neocolonial states are reacting to, but simutaneously can't escape. They despise the histories that have been left behind by Western powers, because they recognize that the history recorded by the West fails to accurately represent their culture, but because of the negotions that they have been forced into by trade negotiations, IMF dealings, WTO decisions, and G8 rulings they cannot devote the time and resources to accurately recount their history. What are the consequences of this?

We see that the culture of the neocolonial states is a confused mess a lot of the time. There are hosts of competing social, cultural, economic, political, gender, and racial narratives, some born out of colonial history, others out of neocolonial history, some simply made up, others recounted over generations through verbal discussion. Without establishing grounds such as this, a sovereign nation has a hell of a time establishing what it "is" and even their concepts of soverignty are behind the time; as has been demonstrated in recent postcolonial, and postmodern literature, it is becoming more and more evident that the soveriegn nation state is under assault, and may soon perish as it was constituted during modernity. This occurs because groups such as the WTO, IMF, G8, NAFTA, EU, various corporate alliances, etc are subverting the power of sovereign nations, and these nations are unable to repel the power of the above mentioned groups, because any attempt to repel those groups is the equivalent of economic suicide. Of course, refuting the dominating capitalism metric can also result in policing actions a la Nicaragua, but we don't need to get into that here...

Further, when looking at why the "3rd World" countries are incapable of currently paying off debts on their own, you have to take into consideration the incredible pressure that they're under by several forces. First of all, in Africa, prior to a nation being able to do much they need the sanctions of the Catholic Church, which donates massive amount of money to local economies. Second, they are unable to form significant trading blocs. The US, Britain, Germany, Japan, China, and France, to name a few of the big players, use bilateral trade negotiations to force impoverished countries to agree to trade deals that, while supposedly in their benefit, are actually geared to exploit the third world nations resources. Why do they agree to such negotiations? Because if they don't agree to such deals the aforementioned countries NAFTA, EU, G8, etc are rallied to deal with the "economically confused" nations. If the impoverished nations don't agree to bilateral trade negotiations, things like medicine, food, etc won't be shipped to their countries. Sure, the impoverished countries know that they're being screwed, but its the difference between helping 10s of thousands of your people, and none of them. It's a bad deal from beginning to end, and they don't have a lot of choice in their decision.

Finally, regarding the refusal to give them more money until they "fix things." If this policy were adopted world wide, then American social programs would stop. The US government has been borrowing tons of money recently, as I'm certain you're aware. You may not be aware that they're largely taking the same position regarding their borrowing of money as they do with the billions that they owe the UN - they just don't pay. Rather than give back tons of money, they defer payment, and ensure that when passing corporate or trade regulations that the companies within the nation that they've borrowed money from are well looked after. Unfortunately, countries that lack the US' massive economic backbone don't have this option, and have to pay. If all nations actually had to pay back their money as they said they would, we'd have a dramatically different world economy.

This has been, obviously, a brief and noncomprehensive analysis of the entire situation, but I'd be happy to expand on anything you'd like.

 

[Top Nurse]

This has been, obviously, a brief and noncomprehensive analysis of the entire situation, but I'd be happy to expand on anything you'd like.

Not particulary since your discourse is totally off topic. This all started due the ranting of someone who claimed to be siding with the Communist Party of another nation. Not suprised in the least as I originally had him pegged for a one of the old line communist politico of Eastern Europe. But what does this have to do with using either one or two pumps?

 

[BellaCroix]

@bellacroix: no, in point of fact, i did not get those ideas from a little red book written roughly 90 years ago.

now, should we start that fresh thread to really discuss this, or not? i'm not a philosophy or political science major, but if you really want, we can go to town with this one.

Heh , I'm pretty much about to put the issue to rest... was wondering when the mods would kill the thread to put it to rest before we did.

 

[Toonage]

What a shame this thread keeps going so far off topic...there has been some really good pertinent info and opinions submitted to the thread topic, and I thank those for that.

 

[DFI Daishi]

Compared to most professions, hers is a "for the good of others" one and to attack her for the social/economic woes of the world is pretty low. I know a draft dodging, silver spoon sucking intellectually challenged guy in Washington your comments would be better directed to.

not blaming her for them in the least. there is no revenge in living well, and enjoying watercooling equipment that is closely in line with your cooling ideals, though. this is true either nationally/internationally with respect to the human race and impact of western lifestyles, or among the small number of people who watercool their computers.

i agree with you statements regarding georgy-boy, however you forgot the grade 6 reading and speaking proficiency.

 

[DFI Daishi]

Why is it everone thinks that I am a scatter brain?

seriously, do i have an itemized list of what equipment you have, printed off and sitting beside my monitor?

so, are you planning using those probes mainly to monitor coolant temp changes across blocks, or across rads? some of each?

if you decide to go with a serial arrangement, then it'll be harder than normal to figure out if pumping power, fan speeds or waterblock performance if holding you back at any given step. all of those rads probably will hit performance sweet spots at somewhat different flow rates.

 

[Warriorprophet]

Well Koolance has always used dual pumps in a }-Waterblock(s)->radiator->pump->res->pump-{ style setup (ok the pumps are in the res but this is oversimplified) and they claim that it improves the water pressure more then the flow.

The sited advantage to this is primarily that greater pressure reduces the distance between the coolant (aka: the water) and the cooler/exchange mediums (re: waterblock and radiator) which then provides an improvement in cooling and cooling capacity over the same flowrate from a single pump.

It also happens to make your system nice and hardened against pump failure.

 

[BillR]

Not particulary since your discourse is totally off topic. This all started due the ranting of someone who claimed to be siding with the Communist Party of another nation. Not suprised in the least as I originally had him pegged for a one of the old line communist politico of Eastern Europe. But what does this have to do with using either one or two pumps?

Given the gear you already own might I make a suggestion?

In a single closed system each part you try to cool will of course pass a portion the exchanged heat on to the next component. The more components the greater “mass” of heat needs to be exchanged at the final stage, the radiator. What I view as the main issue with this system is no single component benefits in a truly efficient manner especially since your only source of “cool” is ambient temperature. You can of course add flow, two pumps will indeed increase pressure (and move more coolant through the system) but the original problem still exists, lack of efficiency at each component.

Given your resources I would be inclined to concentrate on specific areas based on performance gains for each cooled component.

One system for the CPU, one for the GPU and one for the Hard Drives and probably the chipset all balanced by your controller card, priorities set by you to your needs and desired outcome. I would think you would see a substantial lowering of the temperature for each individual component with this method.

Done well it could be a very elegant solution and a whole lot of fun to program and set up.

Just my thoughts

Re the question in your quote, you have two pumps, I have none. Redistribution (of the pump wealth) would be the only fair way to go, right?

 

[Top Nurse]

In a single closed system each part you try to cool will of course pass a portion the exchanged heat on to the next component. The more components the greater “mass” of heat needs to be exchanged at the final stage, the radiator. What I view as the main issue with this system is no single component benefits in a truly efficient manner especially since your only source of “cool” is ambient temperature. You can of course add flow, two pumps will indeed increase pressure (and move more coolant through the system) but the original problem still exists, lack of efficiency at each component.

One system for the CPU, one for the GPU and one for the Hard Drives and probably the chipset all balanced by your controller card, priorities set by you to your needs and desired outcome. I would think you would see a substantial lowering of the temperature for each individual component with this method.

Well I don't have just one radiator. I actually have two BI Pro's installed and a BI Dual 80. I have been thinking of adding another BI Pro as well. So I can put the radiators inbetween each set of heat producing components so the thermal transference is minimized if I decide on one loop with dual pumps and dual Aquatube reservoirs. There is a BIP in the top of the case, one in the front bottom, and the other one will probably go where the exhaust fan is located in the back middle of my V2000 case. The BI Dual 80 sits above the PSU that is located in the bottom rear of the case.

The way I set this up was so I can isolate the biggest heat producers (the dual GPU's) from everything else if I choose to go that way. There is an AquaBay AT that holds an Aquatube and Aquastream that sits at the top of the 5.25" slots, the top mounted BI Pro sits immediately behind it, and the GPU's are pretty much in the middle top of the case.

So it is really possible to do what you say, but my Aquaero can only control two Aquastream pumps. I can control up to four sets of fans and 6 temp devices, as well as one flow sensor. I can use two flow sensors, but then I have to reconfigure (in software) one of my fan headers so I would lose a set of fans. My orginal plans were to include water temp sensors in between and after the radiators so I could adjust the water temp by increasin or decreasing fan voltage.

Also DFI Dashi also brought up an important point. The current ideas in dual pumps seem to be concerning DC pumps. My Aquastream pumps are in fact AC pumps that use DC from the main PSU. The Aquastream controller converts the electricity to alternating current. This allows them to change the Hz rate of the voltage and thus change the RPM of the pump to produce more or less flow than a standard Eheim 1046 pump (actually to get more flow than the Eheim 1048). But the important part is that putting one pump directly in front of the other might not do anything because with the alternating current device it will resist the flow to go faster producing nothing extra.

So what I am hearing is that one 1048 sized pump will not be able to pump all the way through my 7 waterblocks + 3-4 radiators, correct? Now the other part I have been thinking of is to use a booster pump half way through the loop. But the question here is will that work properly? Since the first pump ends ultimately in a closed Aquatube that the second pump sucks from will I have a problem with the 2nd pump trying to suck all the way back to the original pump even though there is some air in the 2nd reservoir? Has anyone ever attempted to do this before?

If this doesn't work then I can go easily to three separate loops.

 

[mohammedtaha]

I really have doubts that a pump anywhere else in the loop other than right after the first pump will help at all.

If you think of it this way, the first pump will pump @ 100% pushing the water through a couple of blocks and a couple of radiators then the second pump will try to pump the water at 100+ % the speed it's getting the water at so in a sense even though it is increasing the pressure of the water and increasing flow, somewhat, the increase isn't that special. It's like you pushing a table and someone helping you pull at the other side but you still have some form of restriction in the middle. The table may move a lot easier but not necessarily that fast if the restriction is challenging.

This is why I think seperate loops will help you out more than a serial/parallel loop.

 

[Top Nurse]

I really have doubts that a pump anywhere else in the loop other than right after the first pump will help at all.

If you think of it this way, the first pump will pump @ 100% pushing the water through a couple of blocks and a couple of radiators then the second pump will try to pump the water at 100+ % the speed it's getting the water at so in a sense even though it is increasing the pressure of the water and increasing flow, somewhat, the increase isn't that special. It's like you pushing a table and someone helping you pull at the other side but you still have some form of restriction in the middle. The table may move a lot easier but not necessarily that fast if the restriction is challenging.

This is why I think seperate loops will help you out more than a serial/parallel loop.

So if I use a 2nd reservoir that has an air relief it might work as I anticipate?

 

[mohammedtaha]

So if I use a 2nd reservoir that has an air relief it might work as I anticipate?

I think that would make a big difference.

I would go that way rather than without.

 

[BillR]

So if I use a 2nd reservoir that has an air relief it might work as I anticipate?

With two pumps in series you are in effect attempting to create a “dual stage” pump. The big advantage to a dual stage pump is more on the “sucking” end then the output end. If you go look at a true dual stage pump they are typically built into one case and may even contain two different types of pump to accomplish the job. That said you would want to have as much fluid available to the pumps as possible to prevent cavitation.

That being said I did some quick research on water, heat and cavitation. Simply put the warmer the water (or any fluid) the greater the likelihood of cavitation. So, in theory if you add the second pump as a booster somewhere down the flow line you will be working with warmer water and possibly create a problem not solve one.

You could however run your pumps in parallel. Again, you need plenty of fluid to “feed” them but you could go larger tubing and increase your total flow. As long as you have the surface area to cool such a system that might be a solution.

In my mind neither solution solves the accumulated heat issue we discussed previously. My goal would be to have each component (or component group) kept as cool as possible, thus I still lean toward the triple loop idea.

This probably is not the ideal scenario for most people but in your case you already own the required components. Besides, think of the challenge

 

[DFI Daishi]

Also DFI Dashi also brought up an important point. The current ideas in dual pumps seem to be concerning DC pumps.

and billr as well: that's kind of why i brought up the issue of being able to vary the frequencies of the two pumps opperate at independantly, via the aquaero.

it seems to me that r1ckca1n indicated that it can be done, so by listening carefully for cavitation noise, and adjusting the frequencies and therefore speeds that the two pumps are opperating at, i think that a legit two stage pump is in the cards, with a viable method of dealing with the issue of cavitation.

having two widely seperated pumps is usually about maintaining flow, rather than keeping up pressure. it might actually be necessary in this case, depending on the results that doubling up the two pumps gives her, but as a rule watercooling performance is usually more limited by pressure than it is by raw flow. two closely spaced pumps would therefore probably be more beneficial........oversimplified, but what the heck, it's 38C in here and i am melting as i type..........