Dual pumps one loop?

[Top Nurse]

Okay what I have been thinking of doing is to use two pumps in the same loop. My loop consists of the following:

Reservoir 1 => BI Dual 80 => BI Pro # 1 => CPU => NB => GPU 1 => GPU 2 => BI Pro # 2 => Reservoir 2 => Pump 1 => BI Pro # 3 => HD 1 => HD 2 => HD 3 => Pump 2 =>

I thought about just putting one pump in, but this is a lot of coolers and I think I might lose flow 1/2 way through the circuit. Also the dual pump will give some added boost and keep flow rates up, yes?

With my Aquaero monitoring I can adjust things so the fans and extra pump only turn on to specific radiators via my programmed limits of temp and flow. Any suggestions? I already have the two Aquastream pumps that I plan on using. There is also the possibility of just putting the GPU's on a completely different loop. Please share your thoughts on advantages or disadvantages of dual pumps in one loop.

 

[wwparrish]

hmm I dont think you will get the advantages you hoped for. I have never tried it so I am going from just what I have read and know about fluid dynamics and I am not an expert by any accounts. There is a really good diagram of how to implement 2 pumps with mulitple waterblocks at

www.c-systems.ca

Look at left at user guides link, then look at the pdf for the CSP750 Multi / Hard mount
Best example of how to do it I have ever seen.

 

[mohammedtaha]

I do not understand why you are cooling all these components.

A hard drive has always worked flawlessly under normal (air cooling) conditions. The fact that you're watercooling probably helps hard drives get more cool air.

Going from a radiator to another radiator is pointless. Why not just have 1 good radiator ?

One reservoir should also be more than enough too. I do not see a reason for more than one reservoir.

A dual pump is also not necessary if you have 1 strong pump.

Are you definitely cooling all these components or is this something you're just thinking of doing ?

 

[wwparrish]

Good questions, think I will have a shot at them.

A hard drive has always worked flawlessly under normal (air cooling) conditions. The fact that you're watercooling probably helps hard drives get more cool air.

He might have water jackets for them. Agree about the more cool air if they happen to be mounted low in the front of the case where the intake fans are. 7200 rprm drives run HOT. He probally is going to mount a radiator in the bottom front and thus the drives are toasting away up top. Not good. Anyway the cooler the better. I will agree that watercooling hard drives is a bit advanced, can be expensive.

Going from a radiator to another radiator is pointless. Why not just have 1 good radiator ?

More than likely the size, 1 good radiator means a BIG radiator for the amount of stuff he is going to cool, mounting a 2 x 120mm fan radiator in a case can be a major headache and eats drive bays. I am guessing he is going to put one in the bottom front and one at the rear exhaust fan. If not, I would tend to agree with you, go with one big rad, or heater core.

One reservoir should also be more than enough too. I do not see a reason for more than one reservoir.

totally agree in fact I am a closed loop guy and dont see the need for a reservoir other than easy of filling and getting the air out. Cooling wise it is of little or no benifit.

A dual pump is also not necessary if you have 1 strong pump.

See my comments earlier about that. The best reason is to establish two cooling loops to keep the heat from the gpu and chipset out of the cpu block and have good flow in each loop. Its also cheap insurance if a pump fails also comes to mind.

 

[wwparrish]

Holy Crap! Just clicked his links to the fan/pump controller and the pump. The controller cost more than my entire water cooling system. and they are way too proud of that underpowered (imo) pump, jeez.

Scratch comment about cheap insurance.

 

[mohammedtaha]

TopNurse is a she.

Hard drives don't heat up that much unless they're 10k rpm. I don't know which hard drives you have but mine are pretty cool. They heat up, yes, but not to the point where I'm starting to have problems.

1 120.2 rad is sufficient for this loop. If she can cool it right. If she's still planning to cool all these components, maybe another 120.1 might be needed, but more than 1 is just pointless and a waste of pumping power in the loop.

I really don't know what she's trying to accomplish but tubes running all over the place is just ugly.

 

[mohammedtaha]

Scratch comment about cheap insurance.

lol

 

[Top Nurse]

hmm I dont think you will get the advantages you hoped for. I have never tried it so I am going from just what I have read and know about fluid dynamics and I am not an expert by any accounts. There is a really good diagram of how to implement 2 pumps with mulitple waterblocks at

www.c-systems.ca

Look at left at user guides link, then look at the pdf for the CSP750 Multi / Hard mount
Best example of how to do it I have ever seen.

Thanks for the links! I think my proposal is somewhat different though.

 

[Top Nurse]

I do not understand why you are cooling all these components. A hard drive has always worked flawlessly under normal (air cooling) conditions. The fact that you're watercooling probably helps hard drives get more cool air. Going from a radiator to another radiator is pointless. Why not just have 1 good radiator ? One reservoir should also be more than enough too. I do not see a reason for more than one reservoir. A dual pump is also not necessary if you have 1 strong pump.

Are you definitely cooling all these components or is this something you're just thinking of doing ?

I'm watercooling these components because I want to. My hardrives are 10,000 RPM SATA drives that get very hot. I did not wish to use one big radiator as I then would have to cut a gigantic hole in my case to fit a 360 and I would have lost either PCI slots, 5.25" bays, or both. This way I maximize the potential for my V2000B case with very little modification necessary as I am using all my 5.25" slots and most of my PCI slots. The BI Pro in the top allowed me to run either a separate loop for the GPU's or just add cooling to the circuit and it also looks pretty nice as well with the A-C grill. The front mounted BI Pro would have blown hot air directly on to the HD's and in the Lain-Li V cases the HD's sit in their own little compartment. The BI Dual 80 rad sits above the PSU and will only have it's fans turned on in case of my programmed temp alarms, kind of a fail-safe cooling measure. The BI Pro in the main compartment case was also put in with no real modification as well. So basically I get better than 360 class cooling performance + I have extra cooling capacity when I go to a dual Nvidia 7800GTX SLI configuration.

The two Aquatubes are there for two different reasons. The front mounted Aquatube is being setup to report the approximate temp of the water through the use of color. When the water is cool the water color is green, when up to normal temps it turns yellow, and when it gets hot it turns red. I also like the wave action in the sight glass The other Aquatube is mounted directly above the PSU compartment so you can see it through my case window. This Aquatube has an Aquajet installed and gives me some more visual asthetics. Of course the main reason was to for each pump have it's own supply of water in case I decide to go to two separate loops.

I don't want to use a bigger pump! My Aquastreams are extremely quiet even when programmed to run at greater than 1048 flow rates. Most people can't even hear then running These pumps fit nicely in my case, are easy to plumb for a variety of different tubing sizes, and they also look nice.

But we digress, so lets get back on topic. The Koolance EXOS units use two pumps and they get approximately double the flow through their system and as a bonus if one pump stops then you have still have enough flow to keep things going while you save your work before needing to shutdown. So dual pumps have been proven to be a viable commercial success, right? So I guess the big question is whether I will get better cooling from a straight series dual pump run, a parallel pump run using Y connectors, or put the GPU's on a separate loop. There is the possibility of using the BI Dual 80 strictly for the HD's.

 

[Top Nurse]

Holy Crap! Just clicked his links to the fan/pump controller and the pump. The controller cost more than my entire water cooling system. and they are way too proud of that underpowered (imo) pump, jeez.

Scratch comment about cheap insurance.

As theseeker is wont to say: The best revenge is living well...

 

[Top Nurse]

TopNurse is a she. Hard drives don't heat up that much unless they're 10k rpm. I don't know which hard drives you have but mine are pretty cool. They heat up, yes, but not to the point where I'm starting to have problems. 1 120.2 rad is sufficient for this loop. If she can cool it right. If she's still planning to cool all these components, maybe another 120.1 might be needed, but more than 1 is just pointless and a waste of pumping power in the loop. I really don't know what she's trying to accomplish but tubes running all over the place is just ugly.

As I pointed out I have SATA Raptor drives. Initially I have three 74Gb Raptors that will eventually be combined into one hardware RAID 5 array. If I decide to sell off my old PC-75 case I will move one of my 36.6 GB Raptor's to the new case for a boot drive and then give the other one to my nephew as he is a budding computer modder. The coolers I am using for my HD's are these Koolance Hydra-Pak's though I have been considering ripping out the HD racks and using three AC Dual Aquadrives instead if I can talk them into making some in black or clear aluminum.

BTW, the only tubes you will see is the ones cutting across the MB compartment. The rest are cleverly routed so as to take advantage of the case components to hide them in plain view. Some people will have difficulty even seeing the tubing that is in the MB compartment due to the art of misdirection

 

[ikellensbro]

First of all, your loop idea as I understand, very poorly done in Paint:

With two Aquatubes or reservoirs in general, if you don't have both pumps running, you will have extremely low flow even for an AC system. Consider if you don't have pump 1 running all of the time: (assuming you mean to have pump 2 after the Aquatube), that single pump, to get more water, will have to suck water from the second Aquatube, Pump 1, BIP # 3, and the hds (Aquatube #1 should be before the pump, so that reservoir doesn't hinder flow more than a regualr reservoir, which isn't that much.). This happens because unless you have the Aquatube inlet and outlet being used directly facing each other, it is very hard to push a stream of water (flowing through tubing/blocks/rads before) through a comparatively open area of water. Basically, trying to push water through open space into tight space=flow likely tobe turned into drops out of a faucet.

With that many components, running a single loop is going to be pretty tough, even with 1/4" tubing. You'd be better off with two seperate loops, maybe one for the gpu and cpu blocks, and another for the chipset and hds, as these don't need anywehere close to as much cooling as the gpus & cpu, and are generally pretty restrictive blocks. This way, you could keep the Aquastream for the hd/nb loop quieter if you need to, as well as keep the fan(s) on this loop's rad(s) on very low voltage or off, while the "main" loop can have its fan(s) seperately controlled.

2 loops:

With the 1/2" 2 or 3 pump loops, they have just a cpu block, or maybe a gpu block in their loop as well, and are aiming for very high flow rates. In your case, you would need two pumps just to keep a trickle of water flowing through everything you have planned.

As for the comment about wanting to use 4 smaller rads in place of a single 3x120 rad or 2xPA160s, I would like to see wher you plan on mounting all those rads (as well as everything else )

 

[wwparrish]

I was trying to be diplomatic. No, 2 pumps connected in series in the loop will NOT increase flow rate in any meaningfull way, It will increase the pressure not the flow. Will all that stuff in one loop more pressure is probally what you do want. It has been shown. proven and discussed widely that high flow rates through radiators results in less cooling in most instances. The good news is that once you have all the equipment its just a case of rerouting the hoses, some clamps and plastic fittings to completely redesign the system.

"The Koolance EXOS units use two pumps and they get approximately double the flow through their system "

Not sure were you got that from, from Koolance's site: http://www.koolance.com/technical/cooling101/003.html

"Reliable? Absolutely, and Koolance uses 2 of them. This may add to the system's stability, but the primary reason for dual pumps is to increase liquid pressure (also covered later)."



This too if you would like more information (skip the stuff at the top and go to the bottom where it discusses mulitple pumps in a loop and has a pressure vs flow graph for 1 and 2 pumps and 1 larger pump. )

http://www.process-cooling.com/CDA/...res/BNP__Features__Item/0,3674,112434,00.html

its by Gary Yoon, chief technology officer at Koolance Inc


There are several sites/forums where this issue has been expeirmented with and discussed to death.

 

[wwparrish]

I was trying to be diplomatic in offering alternatives. I do not care for the proposed design at all, but its not my computer No, 2 pumps connected in series in the loop will NOT increase flow rate in any meaningfull way, It will increase the pressure not the flow. Will all that stuff in one loop more pressure is probally what you do want. It has been shown. proven and discussed widely that high flow rates through radiators results in less cooling in most instances. The rub is that with most newer water blocks you want high flow through the block and a lesser flow rate thru the radiator. This is difficult to acheive. The good news is that once you have all the equipment its just a case of rerouting the hoses, some clamps and plastic fittings to completely redesign the system.

"The Koolance EXOS units use two pumps and they get approximately double the flow through their system "

Not sure were you got that from, from Koolance's site: http://www.koolance.com/technical/cooling101/003.html

"Reliable? Absolutely, and Koolance uses 2 of them. This may add to the system's stability, but the primary reason for dual pumps is to increase liquid pressure (also covered later)."



This too if you would like more information (skip the stuff at the top and go to the bottom where it discusses mulitple pumps in a loop and has a pressure vs flow graph for 1 and 2 pumps and 1 larger pump. )

http://www.process-cooling.com/CDA/...res/BNP__Features__Item/0,3674,112434,00.html

its by Gary Yoon, chief technology officer at Koolance Inc


There are several sites/forums where this issue has been discussed to death. I refer you back to the first link I posted that shows how a properly engineered multi-block dual pump system can be built and with minor modifications adapted to your extensive and unusual needs.

 

[mohammedtaha]

double post homie

To TopNurse :

I would do what the fellas have said. 2 seperate loops.

Question is how can you run the seperate loops .. provide us with options.

You know your case more than we do. You know the different ways you can set up the loops.

I'm waiting.

 

[Top Nurse]

Well I put the rads in for the possibility that I might be forced to go separate loops. So I think the I would put the GPU's on one loop that would be:

Aquatube => Aquastream => BI Pro => GPU 1 => GPU 2 =>

The HD's could go on a separate loop with the use of one of these AC little devil's which would be:

Compacttube Pump => BI Dual 80 => HD1 => HD2 => HD3 =>

And the CPU + NB would go on another loop:

Aquatube => Aquastream => BI Pro => Cuplex XT => Twinplex =>

But I really want to see if two pumps in series 1/2 way through the circuit will take over like pumping stations that go up the side of a mountain.

 

[wwparrish]

Oops my apologies for the "he" thing and I think you will have fun doing it whatever design you decide on and thats the big thing.

 

[DFI Daishi]

As theseeker is wont to say: The best revenge is living well...

i've been wanting to say something ever since you guys started using this one on here.....

i'm sure that the third world agrees that living well is the best revenge. our (the western world's) comprehensive and destructive policy of living well has proven to be the ultimate revenge against them, keeping them impoverished and ground firmly under heel ever since the colonies were founded.

wait a second, what are we getting revenge for? revenge is an action taken in response to real or perceived grievance, and there is no such cause for what we are doing. just greed, and self interest.

then again, what are you getting revenge for? against whom?

this little meme, as it stands, makes very little sense.

i suppose that if someone were prepared to make a whole pile of assumptions, this could be taken to apply to those who are relatively wealthy and use A-C gear, seeking revenge against those who can't really afford the pretty german imports. however, this really doesn't hold much merit since it smacks more of wallowing in greed and consumerism than any kind of true "vengenance" against anyone, really.

would one of you proud aqua-philes care to enlighten me?

 

[Vertigo Acid]

i've been wanting to say something ever since you guys started using this one on here.....

i'm sure that the third world agrees that living well is the best revenge. our (the western world's) comprehensive and destructive policy of living well has proven to be the ultimate revenge against them, keeping them impoverished and ground firmly under heel ever since the colonies were founded.

wait a second, what are we getting revenge for? revenge is an action taken in response to real or perceived grievance, and there is no such cause for what we are doing. just greed, and self interest.

then again, what are you getting revenge for? against whom?

this little meme, as it stands, makes very little sense.

i suppose that if someone were prepared to make a whole pile of assumptions, this could be taken to apply to those who are relatively wealthy and use A-C gear, seeking revenge against those who can't really afford the pretty german imports. however, this really doesn't hold much merit since it smacks more of wallowing in greed and consumerism than any kind of true "vengenance" against anyone, really.

would one of you proud aqua-philes care to enlighten me?

That may have just made my afternoon
it's a close toss-up between that at the site I just read about filtering cheap vodka with a brita pitcher

 

[Cathar]

Uh, to post above.

Flow rate is proportional to pressure. Increase the pressure, you increase the flow.

Having said that, pressure increases roughly proportional to the flow rate squared. What this means is that when you put two pump in series that at best you can expect a ~40% increase in flow rates, which may or may not help out quite a lot depending on where your system is sitting on your systems flow vs performance curve. Given the restrictiveness of TN's setup, I would say that she could expect pretty close to a full 40% flow-rate increase.

The best way to hook two pumps together is in series, one straight after the other, and feed the first one from a reservoir. The reason why is that if a pump has to "suck" water into it, that will totally kill its ability to provide meaningful pressure at its outlet. You want the first pump ramming water into the second pump, and the second pump doesn't have to suck, but rather all of its work goes into increasing the pressure at the outlet, thereby increasing flow rates through the entire loop.

Given TN's ultra-low flow rates due to the ultra high restrictiveness of the system loop, it would be beneficial to split the radiator passes. I would say something like this:

res -> pump1 -> pump2 -> bi dual 80 -> bip1 -> CPU -> NB -> bip2 -> GPU 1 -> GPU 2 -> drives1,2,3 -> res

That, IMO, would be the best way to do it.

Water can soak up a lot of heat without getting warm, but when you start getting down to <1LPM flow rates, that starts to not be so true any more, and it would be good to at least keep the flow rates up above 1LPM just so one is not being affected by the low thermal capacity of the slow water-flow.

1LPM will soak up 70W of heat and rise by 1C in doing so. Slow flow down to 0.5LPM and it'll now rise by 2C for the same 70W. Thing is though is that the BIP radiators all work much much better at 4LPM than at 1LPM, as in about twice as well.

 

[Herulach]

My suggestions in no particular order:
a) grab one, better pump, (l35, iwaki, or somesuch) I know you cant put them on the monitor, but it could still control the fans.
b) How about going to 10mm tubing, you could considerably cut down on loop restriction by doing that, meaning you could maybe get away with 1 pump.
c) buy a stacker, and rejoice in the ability to fit 1x360 1x120 and 1x160 with minimal effort, and also have good enough airflow over your drives to
d) buy a tiny ass little c systems pump, or one of those laing things that DD use, put your hard disks on a seperate loop, maybe with the northbridge or one of the gpus, and mount a 2x80mm rad above the psu for them, hdds really dont need a lot of cooling power, even raptors. Although you would of course have to find a hdd cooler that would fit in your rails.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

I like dual pump, dual loop better.

 

[BellaCroix]

i've been wanting to say something ever since you guys started using this one on here.....

*snip*

Now what the heck was that?

First of all, exactly how has the Western world's capitalistic and consumerism led to their impoverishment (is that a word) or to to keep them under foot? The age of colonialism ended decades ago. The Western world spends enormous amounts of money on a daily basis in the oil producing nations of the middle East and South Asia but the common man there does not benefit from that, not because of Western influence but because of the autonomous and soveriegn ruling families, clans, and governments of those nations. Look at the "Food for Oil" program.

Additionally, charitable and religious organizations primarily based in Western nations send substantial financial and humanitarian relief and aid to those same nations each year. Some of the most prominent are The American Red Cross, Catholic Relief Services, UNICEF, Christian Children's Fund, et al.

Beyond those charitable organizations, the governments of many Western nations provide services above and beyond percieved obligations (think of the last major earthquakes in India or Iran or the tsunami relief efforts), frequently sending aid workers, foodstuffs, medical personnel and supplies, etc.

And what's more, several nations in the Middle East and South Asia (Turkey and India for example) benefit from a brisk tourist industry with a great deal of capital being generated from vistors from... you guessed it, the evil Western nations.

There's no doubt that the Western World is a grossy commercial and materialistic society but to label that as being a direct cause of the impoverishment of other countries is rediculous. How many help-desk workers in India today are making their living and feeding their families because of Americans with problems loading Windows XP?

If you want to help "Joe Average" in those countries you're going to have to hope the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq take care of business in a hurry so that we can commit them to violating another country's soveriegnity by removing the dictators and despots in those countries who are the people actually oppressing the nationals there.

Who/what's the revenge on? Who knows? The guidance councelor in high school who said you'd never amount to anything? The ex-girlfriend who left you because you didn't have a pot to pee in? The bully who's living in a trailer today with his disfunctional family? The boss who fired you from your first job? Whatever.

I buy the German imports because I can. I'm not seeking revenge against people who can't afford it, I hope that every one of them will some day have enough disposable income to be able to piss away money on something they want but don't need. I do my part sending money to charitable organizations each year (+$3000 last year alone) but I have a job that affords me the ability to purchase things I want or like. And yes, that does give me some level of revenge against certain people in my past and did make me feel good when I went to my 10-year reunion.

 

[DFI Daishi]

Now what the heck was that?

that was a rant against an expression that is being tossed around these forums, that really does not make a whole lot of sense. period. i dragged the other stuff in, to try and make a point about how little sense it makes.

First of all, exactly how has the Western world's capitalistic and consumerism led to their impoverishment (is that a word) or to to keep them under foot? The age of colonialism ended decades ago. The Western world spends enormous amounts of money on a daily basis in the oil producing nations of the middle East and South Asia but the common man there does not benefit from that, not because of Western influence but because of the autonomous and soveriegn ruling families, clans, and governments of those nations. Look at the "Food for Oil" program.

Additionally, charitable and religious organizations primarily based in Western nations send substantial financial and humanitarian relief and aid to those same nations each year. Some of the most prominent are The American Red Cross, Catholic Relief Services, UNICEF, Christian Children's Fund, et al.

Beyond those charitable organizations, the governments of many Western nations provide services above and beyond percieved obligations (think of the last major earthquakes in India or Iran or the tsunami relief efforts), frequently sending aid workers, foodstuffs, medical personnel and supplies, etc.

yes, that is a word. western nations hold the loans that the third world governments are forced to pay interest on constantly. all of the aid that we send them yearly is enough to pay roughly one month's interests on those loans, depending on the specific nation under discussion.

And what's more, several nations in the Middle East and South Asia (Turkey and India for example) benefit from a brisk tourist industry with a great deal of capital being generated from vistors from... you guessed it, the evil Western nations.

There's no doubt that the Western World is a grossy commercial and materialistic society but to label that as being a direct cause of the impoverishment of other countries is rediculous. How many help-desk workers in India today are making their living and feeding their families because of Americans with problems loading Windows XP?

so, the people who work for the outsourced western tech industry make a pretty good living, and live in their fortified enclaves. more power to them for earning a good living. now, as for the rest of the country crushed by taxation and a lack of infrastructure that their government cannot afford to provide them as a result of interest payments, what of them?

If you want to help "Joe Average" in those countries you're going to have to hope the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq take care of business in a hurry so that we can commit them to violating another country's soveriegnity by removing the dictators and despots in those countries who are the people actually oppressing the nationals there.

actually, american troops are not holding afganistan at the moment. i have a good(i have been friends with him since grade 2), canadian, friend who is working as a military field engineer among the international forces currently trying to clean up and re-build what the american forces left in their wake.

joe average may not have been "free" as we know it, but he was alive and had a job to work at day after day to (barely) keep himself and his family alive. now that the taliban has been overthrown, the old opium and heroin lords are staking out their turf again, and their employment conditions make america/canadian/mexican sweat shops look like some kind of paradise. afganistan was the #1 producer of the fruit of the giant white poppy, and it looks like they are on their way to a swift recovery now that the harsh regime that all but stamped production out has been overthrown. working for a dollar a day is harsh for the whole family. working for a generous hit of drugs a day is bliss for the workers, and slow death for the family.

Who/what's the revenge on? Who knows? The guidance councelor in high school who said you'd never amount to anything? The ex-girlfriend who left you because you didn't have a pot to pee in? The bully who's living in a trailer today with his disfunctional family? The boss who fired you from your first job? Whatever.

my point was that there really is no revenge, either against the third world or those that aqua-zelots are declaring revenge against. there is just the grasping, capatalistic desire to say that "i have something sexier and more expensive than what you can afford. HAH! i am therefore CLEARLY better than you." which i consider to be rather foolish, considering that they are making definate sacrifices to performance by choosing the more attractive equipment. then again, i don't watercool for the sake of watercooling. i watercool for performance. i don't care how it looks, so long as it is the best perfroming system that i can afford.

I buy the German imports because I can. I'm not seeking revenge against people who can't afford it, I hope that every one of them will some day have enough disposable income to be able to piss away money on something they want but don't need.

that is precisely why it makes no sense for you to say something like "the best revenge is living well." my main attack was against the statement, not A-C gear, in this case.

I do my part sending money to charitable organizations each year (+$3000 last year alone)

i honestly can't really afford it, however $10 of my weekly paycheque goes to the united way. my family has been in a tight spot or two over the years, and although it is not much, it is what i can do. i could donate all of my pay to charity and not make a real difference to poverty even within my own community. however, i do what i can, and try not to dwell on the homeless freezing when it hits -20C plus windchill. it's not always easy, but i can't stop living because of it........

but I have a job that affords me the ability to purchase things I want or like. And yes, that does give me some level of revenge against certain people in my past and did make me feel good when I went to my 10-year reunion.

hey, i have a peltier cooling rig that i put together during a year and a summer that i was out of school and labouring full time. i don't strictly speaking need my rig either. i enjoy it, by all means, however, is is not a symbol of revenge. a lot of people that i went to highschool with are flipping burgers at minimum wage, or doing dangerous work and being crippled before their time. i don't seek vengence against those people. i feel sorry for them. i regret that they wasted (in some cases) real potential to make somthing of themselves.

 

[Cathar]

I thought all western nations agreed just recently to dissolve the loan debts that most third world countries owe to them.

http://www.dawn.com/2005/06/12/ebr7.htm

 

[DFI Daishi]

I thought all western nations agreed just recently to dissolve the loan debts that most third world countries owe to them.

http://www.dawn.com/2005/06/12/ebr7.htm

that's more recent than the information that i was posting based on. i hope that it works out well for the countries in need.

however, i cannot help but note the last condition noted in that article, that the affected nations undertak "economic reform" which under the IMF has classically meant that the nations recieving funding sell certain key natural resources and infrastructures to well networked western companies.

i am a cynic, a pessimest and a real bastard to live with. all the same, i honestly hope that this will not be the case again.

it bears watching, all the same.

 

[Top Nurse]

Well If you really want to know about my use of the term "The best revenge is living well" I will elaborate. First of all I never brought up the issue of cost. I simply responded to someone who was evidently astounded and visibly upset that my fan controller and temp/flow monitoring equipment cost more than his whole water cooling system. The cost is not all that important to me as I make a fair chunk of change and live in a country where no one really cares what I do with it so long as I don't cause harm to others. I should also point out that I have not always lived such a charmed life. I have lived in the streets of America, been on welfare, and been quite poor at various times in my life. If you really want to know I was quite amused when I got my first paycheck after becoming a registered nurse. You see I paid more in taxes for two weeks work than I took out of the system per month when I was on state aid.

So I get a kick and a giggle whenever I hear about all the downtrodden poor people of the world. Having been one of those people I fully understand what it means to be poor and I also understand that what it takes to reverse your situation in life. It has nothing to do with getting a handout from others. It comes from having a deep passion for life, the conviction to do whatever it takes to get something done, and of course the spiritual enlightenment to sift through the bull shit and hear the wisdom of what life is really about.

So while others may build computers and OC the hell out of them to play a game faster or get better performance I do neither. I build computers simply for the joy of doing something different and I get a real satisfaction from the challenge of doing something that no one else has done. Not because it will prove my pet theory or any other obscure thought pattern, but simply because it keeps me sharp, focused, and challenged.

This current project started out about 8 months ago and I am on my 3rd case. The V2000 case has given me all the artistic freedom to do what ever I want and I want to do a lot The original goal was to build a Koolance/DIY hybrid and has progressed to an Aqua Computer system because it follows my initial design considerations. I also have gone through a lot of water cooling hardware along the way. What looks promising at first often does not meet my expectations in real life so it gets put back up for sale and I look around some more. Lately I have been considering going to three (3) separate loops or one big loop. So I will probably experiment around with the one loop and if it doesn't do what I want I will reconfigure the system for 2 or more loops.

I also have now three Aqua Computer Twinplex's that I have been giving strong consideration to dump in favor of three silver TwinPlex's to go with my Silver Cuplex XT I just took delivery on. While it may increase my water cooling ability slightly the real reason is simply because I like the look of the silver blocks as it goes nicely with the black tubing I am using. The fact that they cost $120 a piece is really of secondary concern to me. So the best revenge is truly living well as I really am just avenging myself because it is not about anyone else.

P.S. See my sig

 

[mohammedtaha]

So the best revenge is truly living well as I really am just avenging myself because it is not about anyone else.

Good for you ! Computers also took me away from drugs, alcohol and corruption.

I'm reserving this post for a reply when I get to work.

@ work:

Who the hell cares what they think? They got into this mess in the first place because they borrowed money that they couldn't pay back. It's not any of the "wealthy" countries problems to fix their infrastructure! The best thing we could do is to wipe out their debt and refuse to lend them a dime till they fix their own problems. Might take a war, famine, or other nasty business to shake them up enough that they decide to change things for the better. My personal opinion is that the IMF should just write off most of Africa as a lost cause. And in case your wondering I am not a Republican

Now, now , now... I'm African so I take offense to that. Africa is not a lost cause, it is one of the richest countries in minerals such as oil, gold, diamonds. Agriculture, one of the best sceneries and vacation spots ... and the list goes on.

Africa is poor because of corrupted governments and their ability to get away with things.

You enjoy your life rich and care less for those poor because you're living it up right now. I'm sure someone showed sympathy towards you because of your past life. I did. I'm happy you're not the way you are, I don't sympathize with those that spend their gov't check on alcohol or cigarettes.

As for the topic on hand. I don't know about Cathar's suggestion. It seems to work fine but the gain of 40% does not provide enough reason to go serial. The loses in flow and pressure will increase once you have gone through the first few water blocks and the radiators. It will probably be back to 100% once you've gone through the first radiator.

If you were to go seperate. Then atleast you go through a smaller loop with less components thus less restriction so better cooling.

This is my suggestion. Sorry to quote your post before your post

 

[Top Nurse]

however, i cannot help but note the last condition noted in that article, that the affected nations undertak "economic reform" which under the IMF has classically meant that the nations recieving funding sell certain key natural resources and infrastructures to well networked western companies.

Who the hell cares what they think? They got into this mess in the first place because they borrowed money that they couldn't pay back. It's not any of the "wealthy" countries problems to fix their infrastructure! The best thing we could do is to wipe out their debt and refuse to lend them a dime till they fix their own problems. Might take a war, famine, or other nasty business to shake them up enough that they decide to change things for the better. My personal opinion is that the IMF should just write off most of Africa as a lost cause. And in case your wondering I am not a Republican

 

[FadedSpark]

i havent read the whoel thread and i am a WC noob but wouldnt putting the pumps in paralell be easier and get the same job done?

 

[DFI Daishi]

Who the hell cares what they think? They got into this mess in the first place because they borrowed money that they couldn't pay back. It's not any of the "wealthy" countries problems to fix their infrastructure! The best thing we could do is to wipe out their debt and refuse to lend them a dime till they fix their own problems.

i don't think that this situation or discussion has anything at all to do with what "they" think, and i wonder why you even bring "that" up. the countries of the developing world desperately needed money, and accepted what at first seemed to be a generous offer from the IMF. i fully agree with your comment that a reasonable thing to do at this point would be to write off the current debts owing, and refuse to lend more until these nations shape themselves up. instead, what we do is continue to hold the loans. because the governments cannot afford to make payments, we force the governments to sell off vital resources that their country needs in the long term, but is not fully exploiting immediately. these sales between governments have some affect on the politicians, but the harsher impact is felt by the individial citizens who loose their land and/or loose their way of life/ability to make a living. the deals that we are forcing upon these nations amount to indentured servitude of the nation, which has been banned from being applied to individuals for quite some time in both of our nations.

Might take a war, famine, or other nasty business to shake them up enough that they decide to change things for the better. My personal opinion is that the IMF should just write off most of Africa as a lost cause. And in case your wondering I am not a Republican

trust me, i have many ideas of how we could get rid of the "problem" of the third word, from thier increasing populations, to their increasing economic strength on the global stage. at the end of the day, it would allow us to continue indefinately with our very high standard of living. however, it would also require us to very litterally commit genocide on an unprecedented scale. i therefore think that it is not a moral stand, and although i frequently take it myself, i feel that it is wholly amoral for us to do so, and i only use these arguments to further illustrate that the only moral and feasible means of generating a sustainable global economy involves our standard of living coming down and theirs coming up such that we can find a real median.

this a as brief a summary as i can make, and if you want to go in-depth, we need to start a fresh thread, and i need to dial up some other people that i know who are interested in this topic, on many sides of the debate. some of them are in direct disagreement with me, however a subject this large needs all possible viewpoints to be represented.

no political party truely represents my beliefs, so i usually just vote communist because they are one of the two parties up here that have not yet actually had a chance to show us what they will really do with a nation's worth of resources.

i have read your sig, and you have recently edited it. you have now choosen to include this senseless statement in what you are portraying to the members of this forum as the things that you believe in and stand for.

if you had used an accurate and much better suited statement such as "enjoy the good things in life while you can" or "use the good stuff and don't worry about what anyone else thinks" i would not have started this amusing little foray into my views on global socio-political environment, by way of trying to distinguish between consumerism and greed, through the use a a real world example, and this thread would probably be a bit more on track than it is now. (paragraph-sentence ahoy, captain!)

 

[DFI Daishi]

i havent read the whoel thread and i am a WC noob but wouldnt putting the pumps in paralell be easier and get the same job done?

depends on how the whole loop is set up. running in parrallel only makes sense if there are two totally seperate loops within the system.

runs some seaches with key words like serial vs parallel and the like to find some good discussions on the subject.

i used to think as you do, however i have learned a thing or two in my time here. one thing that i have not yet seen addressed the the distinction between serial opperation of AC pumps vs serial opperation of DC pumps, however i would imagine serial AC is sufficiently uncommon that it is not really worth getting into just now.

 

[Top Nurse]

i used to think as you do, however i have learned a thing or two in my time here. one thing that i have not yet seen addressed the the distinction between serial opperation of AC pumps vs serial opperation of DC pumps, however i would imagine serial AC is sufficiently uncommon that it is not really worth getting into just now.

Now that is an interesting point seeing how the Aqua Computer Aquastream is not a DC pump even though it is powered by DC. It is in fact an AC pump.

 

[DFI Daishi]

Now that is an interesting point seeing how the Aqua Computer Aquastream is not a DC pump even though it is powered by DC. It is in fact an AC pump.

since it is being run from a DC power source, even though it is a switching DC power source, and has a variable switching DC step-up in between the PSU and the pump itself, i believe that this pump has an electronic commutator that allows it to function essentially as a DC pump.

the thing with AC pumps it that their rotational speed is set according to the line AC frequency, and even if the incoming liquid happens to be coming in relatively quickly, the impeller cannot go any faster than the speed dictated by AC frequency unless the liquid is moving with sufficient force to overpower the pump motor, in which case the second pump is a hinderance instead of a help.

a DC pump does not work in quite the same way, and it seems to me that it can actually rotate faster than it's spec'd speed in response to high intake coolant velocity without the motor fighting the added flow.

in the above post AC and DC refer strictly to current and have no bearing on watercoling equipment brand names and their short forms.

 

[Top Nurse]

It is not a switching DC or pulse width modulated pump. It really is an honest to god AC pump. They can increase the output of the pump by varying the AC cycles per second from 49 Hz to 74 Hz. 12 Vdc into the controller and 9 Vac to the pump.

TN isn't as stupid as people around here take me to be. I bought the Aquastream because it is a very well designed pump that can run from 1046 flow rates to well over 1048 flow rates. With the new version 3.5 controller you no longer need an Aquaero to do this but you are limited to specific Hz changes unless you have an Aquaero.

 

[DFI Daishi]

okay, in that case you would want the second pump in series to have a somewhat higher frequency than the first pump. does the aquaero allow you to do that?

all of this HDD watercooling just hurts my head, but if you're going to go for it, then don't give so much even an inch on your CPU temps, which actually count for something usefull. tweak and test and tweak until you have it is working like it should. a complete, well developed system.

inline temp probes should allow you to determine you design's weak points, and then you can work to correct them.

 

[BellaCroix]

...*snip*... a sustainable global economy involves our standard of living coming down and theirs coming up such that we can find a real median.

You didn't get that idea from a little red book written about 90 years ago, did you? Economic ideas very similar have been tried in many countries over the years and nearly every one of them have thrown away that "little red book" or made huge changes to the original precepts.

In my opinion there is nothing to gain by attempting to redistribute wealth. A person makes and conversely spends what someone else thinks they are worth. Do I think a second rate basketball player is worth $8M/yr, of course not. But that doesn't matter, I'm not signing his paycheck. Someone thinks he is and kudos to him for getting himself there.

The best thing we can do for developing nations is not to create an economic level playing field. It is to help them to build a solid infrastructure, manufacturing base, R&D labs, pharamacutical development, alerternative fuel sources, etc. Help them to enter the global economy then turn a profit on the silly Westerners willing to buy Flow Bees and Sharper Image crap.

Look at Germany which was left in ruins following the exploitation of a corrupt and destructive government and subsequent war. After WW2 there was nearly no manufacturing base left in Germany, today they sell overpriced cars and watercooling gear to the world (and lead the world in the development of exploding frogs).

Now if you're making reference to the fact that as developing nations grow they will become wealthy at the cost of American wealth (outsourcing of jobs, etc) then that's just an action of simple economics. If the Western world continues to allow jobs to be sent to developing nations without replacing the lost jobs with new ones it won't be long before we're the empoverished nations. However, that economic reaction is not "helping" them, it's a reaction to another action.

*break*

...and Nurse, sounds like we came from similar backgrounds. I lived for a year when I was much younger off government surplus cheese (best grilled cheese sandwiches in the world), stale bread, and 5-gallon jars of peanut butter each month. Rather than complaining about my situation I used that as my incentive to find what caused my family to be there in the first place and make sure that didn't happen to me again.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

okay, in that case you would want the second pump in series to have a somewhat higher frequency than the first pump. does the aquaero allow you to do that?

Yes, you can monitor and control two pumps (aquastreams)

all of this HDD watercooling just hurts my head, but if you're going to go for it, then don't give so much even an inch on your CPU temps, which actually count for something usefull. tweak and test and tweak until you have it is working like it should. a complete, well developed system.

I like HDD watercooling because all of my data is sitting on 10k rpm raptors that tend to get extremely hot. Heat is not a hard drives friend.

inline temp probes should allow you to determine you design's weak points, and then you can work to correct them.

And you can do that with the Aquaero too!

 

[DFI Daishi]

Yes, you can monitor and control two pumps (aquastreams)

so you can set their frequencies independantly? good.

I like HDD watercooling because all of my data is sitting on 10k rpm raptors that tend to get extremely hot. Heat is not a hard drives friend.

no kidding. however, as i have said previously, i have a 7200 and two 10 K raptors in my drive cadge with a quiet fan, and they sledom top 40C and never top 55C, which is the temperature that they are rated up to. i am not pushing or overclocking my drives in any way, so i am not worried so long as i stay within rated temperature ranges.

And you can do that with the Aquaero too!

you can do it, if you have the probes installed and connected. i don't know for a fact if TN has the probes and is paying attention to what they are telling her.

 

[DFI Daishi]

@bellacroix: no, in point of fact, i did not get those ideas from a little red book written roughly 90 years ago.

now, should we start that fresh thread to really discuss this, or not? i'm not a philosophy or political science major, but if you really want, we can go to town with this one.