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DOOM3 rendering

Vagrant Zero said:
If he was on-key then what was the point of the retort?
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Hehe.. you proved my point, you don't even know if he was on key or off key, no one knows if he is on key or off key. Yet he spread it around like he was for sure on key. Very much like marketing, whether it be for Nvidia or Ati.
 
You do? You're nasty. I think i'm going to nominate you as the first person on my muted list.
 
M4d-K10wN said:
You do? You're nasty. I think i'm going to nominate you as the first person on my muted list.
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Your sarcasm detector is broke, or either overloaded by your fantasizing you freak :mad:
 
CrimandEvil said:
Whatever floats your boat....
LOL
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Evidently it's what floats madklown's boat, he took it serious!! :D


Hold on, weren't you the one that brought up big penis' in the first place? :confused:
 
http://www.gamestop.com/Default.asp?cookie_test=1&

250x230_doom3.jpg


Official launch date of August 3rd, 2004 confirmed!
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WOOT
 
Yes, and ID never misses official release dates. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Oh, I was kidding btw. Didn't actually mute him.
 
M4d-K10wN said:
Yes, and ID never misses official release dates. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Oh, I was kidding btw. Didn't actually mute him.
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That would have been fucked up, I actually have called you my favorite in a few threads.
 
Lazn_Work said:
does no one understand what he is saying?

"The game tic simulation, including player movement, runs at 60hz, so if it rendered any faster, it would just be rendering identical frames. "

Game tic is not FPS.

All this means is that if you get 61fps the last 1fps is an identical frame to one already rendered, if you get 120fps than 60 of those were repeated.

The graphics card could render it at 2 billion FPS, and show 2 billion frames, but there would only be 60 different ones shown 2 billion times.

So yes it can "get" more than 60fps, but doing so will not affect gameplay.

==>Lazn
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No, it won't get more than 60fps. Read it again and note "if it rendered any faster, it would just be rendering identical frames". It won't be allowed to render any faster, because rendering identical frames is just a waste of power and it is known that there would be duplication past 60fps.

Also note that after "We checked with John Carmack himself about why DOOM 3 will be hard-capped at 60fps in the renderer, and he had this to say:" there isn't a "no, it isn't capped at 60fps in the renderer."

I suspect that the problems (headaches, eye strain, etc.) that people have at 60Hz has more to do with the detection of the scan lines being drawn and the flicker related to that than with the actual frame rate. Crank up the refresh rate and that'll take care of the flicker.

PrkChpXprss said:
This was posted at www.ign.com:

October 22, 2003 - At a recent NVIDIA Editors' Day, id Software CEO Todd Hollenshead announced that DOOM 3 will be capped to 60 frames per second in the rendering engine.

We checked with John Carmack himself about why DOOM 3 will be hard-capped at 60fps in the renderer, and he had this to say:

"The game tic simulation, including player movement, runs at 60hz, so if it rendered any faster, it would just be rendering identical frames. A fixed tic rate removes issues like Quake 3 had, where some jumps could only be made at certain framerates. In Doom, the same player inputs will produce the same motions, no matter what the framerate is."
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Cardboard Hammer said:
No, it won't get more than 60fps.

It won't be allowed to render any faster, because rendering identical frames is just a waste of power and it is known that there would be duplication past 60fps.

"We checked with John Carmack himself about why DOOM 3 will be hard-capped at 60fps in the renderer, and he had this to say:" there isn't a "no, it isn't capped at 60fps in the renderer."
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You just contradicted yourself in one post. Congratulations.

It is not a "waste of power" because otherwise it would be idleing the Video Card. The CPU will only have to work on a 60hz tic rate, but if the Video Card can render at 200FPS it will do it. Like Carmack said "no, it isn't capped at 60fps in the renderer."

So the CPU will work on a 60hz tic and the render will run as fast as it can.

Makes perfect sense to me. as I said before, if you get 120FPS, it will actually show 120fps but half of them will be repeats of the frame just rendered because the game is running on a 60hz tic.

It is not actually that simple but it works for understanding what is going on fairly well.

==>Lazn
 
but any frames beyond 60fps will be identical, offering no advantage to framerates over 60. And IIRC it was capped in the renderer.
 
Merlin45 said:
but any frames beyond 60fps will be identical, offering no advantage to framerates over 60. And IIRC it was capped in the renderer.
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The only advantage of any framerate over 60 would be to lower flicker on the screen, but as far as improving fluidity or advantage in gameplay, you are correct.

==>Lazn
 
Lazn_Work said:
You just contradicted yourself in one post. Congratulations.

It is not a "waste of power" because otherwise it would be idleing the Video Card. The CPU will only have to work on a 60hz tic rate, but if the Video Card can render at 200FPS it will do it. Like Carmack said "no, it isn't capped at 60fps in the renderer."

So the CPU will work on a 60hz tic and the render will run as fast as it can.

Makes perfect sense to me. as I said before, if you get 120FPS, it will actually show 120fps but half of them will be repeats of the frame just rendered because the game is running on a 60hz tic.

It is not actually that simple but it works for understanding what is going on fairly well.

==>Lazn
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Congratulations, you don't know what you're talking about or how to read. :rolleyes:

It's a waste to rerender the same frame, because it's already in the frame buffer.

Given that the distinct frames are capped at 60 per second, it's better that the actual fps be capped at the same level, as it will enable you to see the new frame as soon as possible. If your card can render >60fps, it will be ready and waiting when it comes time to render the next distinct frame instead of being busy rendering a duplicate frame. If your card can't render 60fps, the cap is moot.

There is nothing to gain by rerendering duplicate frames, other than heat and latency.

Cardboard Hammer said:
Also note that after "We checked with John Carmack himself about why DOOM 3 will be hard-capped at 60fps in the renderer, and he had this to say:" there isn't a "no, it isn't capped at 60fps in the renderer."
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EDIT: By the way, nice job butchering your "quote" of me. :rolleyes:
 
ya so what about the cap? big deal. You'll need the best vid card to run the game at 60 fps WITH ALL THE EYECANDY TURNED ON. Isn't that what's important? sheesh.
 
I like 100hz or I get eyestrain/headaches.

That why I have a 19" flat panel at work where I'm looking at a moniter 8 hours straight. And a 21" Trinitron with good refresh rates at home.

Praying DOOM3 will be as exciting as Quake3 was when it first came out (and is still a pretty damn good game) In fact, I just played a good old fashion game of Q3 deathmatch last week.

And my current favorite game... Soldier of Fortune 2... is based on Q3 engine + lotsa improvements.
 
chrisf6969 said:
I like 100hz or I get eyestrain/headaches.

That why I have a 19" flat panel at work where I'm looking at a moniter 8 hours straight. And a 21" Trinitron with good refresh rates at home.

Praying DOOM3 will be as exciting as Quake3 was when it first came out (and is still a pretty damn good game) In fact, I just played a good old fashion game of Q3 deathmatch last week.

And my current favorite game... Soldier of Fortune 2... is based on Q3 engine + lotsa improvements.
Click to expand...

So set the refresh rate to 100Hz. A cap of 60fps has no impact on refresh rate and does not limit you to a refresh rate of 60Hz. Turning on Vsync can reduce the fps, under certain circumstances, but fps does not have any effect on the refresh rate.
 
I can play my games at anything over 25FPS. Really. 25 whopping FPS is what I usually average in Urban terror on this 466 (567atm) Celery, and it's perfectly playable. I can strafe-jump and everything.
 
heh, my first decent PC was a K6 2 @ 550 running a Voodoo 2 12MB, 18fps was good in some games... it would hit 30 most of the time. The open areas on AvP slowed it down good...

as for the 100Hz thing, JC didn't say it wouldn't run 100fps, he said it wouldn't render 100fps. Set the refresh to 100, turn on Vsync, it will match, but it will be identical frames.

hell, I'll be happy if my system can hit a constant 60fps on D3. I don't feel like upgrading again soon, too much trouble to get the system right.
 
X800 Pro on the way for me. No thte best card for Doom III, but I did happen to catch the $329 "sale" Fry's put up online. Only reason I bought it mind you, I'm honestly wanting to switch from fanatic to nvidiot. Seems Nvidia has the technological advantage at this time; next match is R500 vs. NV50, and man, that's gonna be a good one.
 
0ldman said:
heh, my first decent PC was a K6 2 @ 550 running a Voodoo 2 12MB, 18fps was good in some games... it would hit 30 most of the time. The open areas on AvP slowed it down good...

as for the 100Hz thing, JC didn't say it wouldn't run 100fps, he said it wouldn't render 100fps. Set the refresh to 100, turn on Vsync, it will match, but it will be identical frames.

hell, I'll be happy if my system can hit a constant 60fps on D3. I don't feel like upgrading again soon, too much trouble to get the system right.
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actually he did say the renderer was capped at 60, implying that you can't do that. anyways, 100fps with identical frames and vsync and 60 fps with 100hz refresh would be identical, so it doesn't matter.
 
Merlin45 said:
actually he did say the renderer was capped at 60, implying that you can't do that. anyways, 100fps with identical frames and vsync and 60 fps with 100hz refresh would be identical, so it doesn't matter.
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No, they wouldn't, but they would be close. And the guy you quoted is saying the same thing you are. You just expounded on it, good job.
 
0ldman said:
...

as for the 100Hz thing, JC didn't say it wouldn't run 100fps, he said it wouldn't render 100fps. Set the refresh to 100, turn on Vsync, it will match, but it will be identical frames.

...
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Refresh rate and fps are two different things. There is a difference between drawing a frame containing the same data as the previous frame and drawing the same frame twice. It also doesn't matter, in terms of fps, whether your card's rendering rate is capped by software or hits the limit of its own capabilities. Rendering rate is fps. Refresh rate is screen draws per second.

If your monitor's refresh rate is 120Hz, that means your monitor will draw the screen 120 times per second, no matter what fps your video card can or can't do:
-If your video card renders 60 frames in a second, then you've got 60fps and your monitor will draw each of those frames twice.
-If your video card renders 120 frames in a second, but every even numbered frame is identical to the frame before it, then you've got 120fps and your monitor will draw each of those frames once.
-If your video card renders 1 frame in a second, then you've got 1fps and your monitor will draw that frame 120 times.

Refresh rate NEVER increases fps and only is able to lower fps when Vsync is on.
-With Vsync off, you render to the buffer that is being used to draw the screen, which causes tearing when the screen is drawn when the buffer contains part of the last frame rendered and part of the new frame being rendered.
-With Vsync on, you can only render to a buffer that isn't being used to draw the screen and can only flip buffers between draws. This restriction can drop the fps under certain circumstances. (IIRC, if you've only got 1 back buffer, your video card can't start rendering the next frame after it fills that buffer until the buffers are flipped, which can only happen between refreshes.)
 
Also, as I said before, rendering a frame known to be identical to the frame before it is only useful in terms of benchmarking, as it CAN'T improve game performance and is actually likely to degrade it.

Perhaps they might include a means for turning off the rendering cap for benchmarking purposes (don't count on it), but anyone who thinks that'd improve the performance or visual quality of the game is sorely mistaken. The game state only can change 60 times per second (given how they've programmed it), with or without the rendering cap.

(While it'd be possible to screw with a computer's hardware to skew its perception of a second as compared to the real world or to emulate such hardware in software, I don't think either is particularly viable to the vast majority of endusers at this time.)
 
yea, yer right.

I meant what you said but didn't think the details out right.
 
Ya, it doesnt matter how high your refresh rate on your monitor is set. If the game is pumping out 60fps you see 60fps. Here's my question though because I'm still a little confused. Lets say for example I'm running 100Hz on my monitor. Now how does Doom 3 work exaclty? Is it just the models and animations that are capped at 60Hz. What is exactly being capped here? If there was a way to remove the 60Hz cap would I notice an increase smoothness on my mouse look.? Example, take a game that you run 30fps, try looking around it jitters a little right? Try 60fps.. Maybe it doesn't jitter enough for you to notice a difference. But if you move it fast enough you will. So my question is. If I remove the cap to give me 100fps will I notice reduced jitters on my mouselook giving me a smoother sense of gameplay? Even though the animations and all that jazz may still be doing thier thing at 60Hz.
 
The direction the character is facing is part of the game state, so that's capped at 60 updates per second as well. Removing the rendering cap won't affect that.
 
I really doubt its an unmovable cap.

Unreal Tournament had sort of the same idea, when the FPS would dip below 30fps, it would start turning off visual effects to try to maintain at least a playable minimum, when it hit 60fps it would turn things back on. The values were movable though.

Things do look better to me above 60fps, I don't know about others. In a perfect world, I'd like to have 120hz for the monitor and 85 fps *Minimum* for the game. I've played several games at 800x600 (up to 160hz & 160fps), and that seems to be my threshold of completely smooth gameplay, especially if you set your mouse sensitivity to 3 or 4x what the game defaults to.

People who can't see the monitor flicker at 75 hz or below need not reply.
 
Unless the engine is modified to update game state faster than 60Hz, uncapping the rendering rate is useless for anything but benchmarking.

I highly doubt that changing the rate of updating the game state is going to be anywhere near a trivial matter for an enduser. If Carmack didn't consider a fixed update rate to be important, why would he have built it into the engine?

Perhaps when hardware performance increases to higher levels, iD might release a patch to increase the rate of game state update. Who knows?
 
Cardboard Hammer said:
Unless the engine is modified to update game state faster than 60Hz, uncapping the rendering rate is useless for anything but benchmarking.

I highly doubt that changing the rate of updating the game state is going to be anywhere near a trivial matter for an enduser. If Carmack didn't consider a fixed update rate to be important, why would he have built it into the engine?
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The whole thing is some people say 60Hz gives them headaches, 100Hz doesn't. I don't think ID would limit the game to a refresh of 60Hz, even if they limit the framerate. Identical frames would be required to keep in sync with a refresh of 100Hz.
Perhaps when hardware performance increases to higher levels, iD might release a patch to increase the rate of game state update. Who knows?
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That is why they locked it to 60, as system performance increased, framerate increased, Quake III starts doing weird stuff.
 
if your framerate is 60fps and your refresh rate is 100hz, then you will be drawing identical frames, your fps doesn't have to be matched to the refresh rate. f
or example, 60 fps at 120 hz
the video card does this
render frame 1
render frame 2
render frame 3

the monitor draws this
draw frame 1
draw frame 1 again
draw frame 2
draw frame 2 again
draw frame 3
draw frame 3 again

now, 120fps with a 60hz tic and 120hz refresh

vid card
render frame 1
render frame 1 again
render frame 2
render frame 2 again
render frame 3
render frame 3 again

the monitor shows this
draw frame 1
draw frame 1 again
draw frame 2
draw frame 2 again
draw frame 3
draw frame 3 again

so the output to the user in terms of frames drawn is the same no matter what the refresh rate as long as the refresh rate is higher than the fps. higher refresh rates, regardless of what is drawn, cut down flickering and headaches, no matter what the fps. that is why an lcd doesn't need higher refresh rates to avoid headaches, because all pixels are always on as opposed to a crt where they are lit only for a fraction of a second.
in summary, framerate is in no way coupled to flickering or refresh rates as experienced by crt screens.
 
Start up a MP game that gives you ability to have a 'lag-o-meter' drawn on the screen. Now mess around with your maxfps and monitor refresh rates as well as maxpacket settings. If you study the lag-o-meter you'll see the relationship between frame rates, refresh rates and incoming packets very quickly. ;) And also why your MINIMUM fps is VERY important. ;)
 
that is because client server games adjust their update rates to match the max fps, the max fps setting is there for network reasons as much as for graphical ones, also your refresh rate alone shouldn't affect any other aspect of the system as it is only how many times a second the crt tube redraws the screen, it has no effect on the rendering itself (unless vsync is enabled)
 
True^

My point was to try and get people to realize the relationship between fps and freshrates really. I threw MP in their cause it is easier to explain. :D
 
0ldman said:
The whole thing is some people say 60Hz gives them headaches, 100Hz doesn't. I don't think ID would limit the game to a refresh of 60Hz, even if they limit the framerate. Identical frames would be required to keep in sync with a refresh of 100Hz.

That is why they locked it to 60, as system performance increased, framerate increased, Quake III starts doing weird stuff.
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The frame buffer isn't consumed in the process of refreshing the screen. The contents of the frame buffer could be used to refresh the screen indefinitely without needing to be updated / replaced.

They could raise the cap to a higher level without weird stuff happening if they accounted for it appropriately. Whether it's possible for them to release a simple patch for that in the future is something I don't know, as I haven't got access to the source code. Certainly, they could modify the engine to use a different cap. There's nothing that locked them into using 60Hz (though I suspect it may be related to 60Hz being pretty much the lowest refresh rate in normal usage, not to mention that it's the most likely refresh rate to be used by those who don't know how to change it in Windows XP).
 
All I want to know is how my 128mb R9800XT will handle D3 at 1280x1024 (LCD 19") with a moderate amount of eye candy. :rolleyes:

Based on what I have read/seen, I am hoping to be able to maintain 30-60fps average...anything under 30 and I will be changing something...this won't be as fast paced as Q3A for example, so a lower minimum fps will be acceptable.
 
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