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Doom 3 shader mod for ++ performance

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^eMpTy^ said:
You're comparing apples and oranges...there's a big difference between switching between pre-determined game settings and opening up a pak file and screwing with shader code...

It's not that I don't appreciate his efforts...I just think the way he presented it was BS...his post read like a piece of flamebait, he should hold himself to a higher standard...
Click to expand...

That same difference also applys to opening up the console and manually entering in video commands. Something I, and apprently most others, have absolutely no problem doing.
 
Xenozx said:
for those people who want a little extra performance i think its worth while, but again it should be labled a hack and not "something john carmack did wrong" its not gonna increase performance from no where. its sacrificing something the question at this point is what.

again can you tell me why john carmack did not use this shader path out of the box?
Click to expand...

I agree...the term "hack" isn't completely derogatory...some people like hacks...but it was presented as a "cure-all" which it is not...it's cool to learn about how he did it and see the performance/iq trade-off...I have absolutely no problem with it...but running your mouth off like a 13 year old about how you "fixed it" and everyone else can stop talking smack about your cards is just garbage...
 
He also works for ATI, though he's not on the D3 team. This entire debacle just seems like a desperate stab in the dark. It's just some unwritten law, the current loser of this generation WILL do stupider/shadier things. Last time around it was Nvidia, now the shoe seems to be on the other foot.
 
Well then. After havin read some more, i changed my view on one thing.

If he is a Senior member, and people look up to him and trust him. And also if he showed it as a "cure for all" and it isnt. Then he he was wrong to do so.

But what does all this rammbling on help ?!?!
 
Mr.Magneplanar said:
Well then. After havin read some more, i changed my view on one thing.

If he is a Senior member, and people look up to him and trust him. And also if he showed it as a "cure for all" and it isnt. Then he he was wrong to do so.

But what does all this rammbling on help ?!?!
Click to expand...

it helps over-excited computer geeks vent and calm down... ;)
 
Has anyone tried this hack both with the original config file and the config with all the config tweaks to see if there is the same jump?
 
Humus is very experienced, but when a programmer makes a shader they make it with certian effects in mind. Its not really a hack but he shouldn't have mud slapped Carmack's name like that.

BTW PXC just tried the plasma gun tweak looks really cool hehe, but man it does slow the engine down a little.
 
fallguy said:
Take no offense to this, but with your AOL typing, it is hard to take anything you say seriously.
"dun" "ur" ... etc. Again, please dont take offense.
Click to expand...

HAHAHAHA - rofl. best post for today! thanks!
 
This post is going to make a lot more sense to nvidia guys when they are hacking their hl2 code for 2fps trying to make par.
 
fallguy said:
Kinda like PS3.0 and FC, eh?
Click to expand...
Yeah but PS3.0 and Ultra Shadow I might add are designed to give a performance boost without compromising the IQ.

I seem to remember quite a few ATI people saying the say thing about NV30 but now that people have to reduce IQ with the X800 they seem to be singing a different tune now. Just something I've noticed. ;)
 
I had a feeling that "cure" was too good to be true. Oh well. Besides just because the 6800 plays a little bit better than the X800 doesn't mean that it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Well that was enough ranting. As long as the game works and plays smoothly then I'm happy.
 
i just find all this depressing. yes the radeon 9800pro was probably the best card out last generation (sure there was the XT but we're considering price here too), nothing could touch it really, even when the 5900U/5950U caught up to it/beat it, the 9800pro still had the better IQ. but now it seems the shoe is on the other foot, people just need to understand that the 6800 series is good, damn good in fact, it has speed and it has the visual qualities (and some new eye-candy with sm3.0), it has as all the prices covered and now with the LE will possibly be the the new 9800pro (with 4 different forms). i think instead of people complaining about who owns what card etc. they should just live on not bother with banter, and see if ati picks itself up and does better next-generation.
 
Well we are all the same.

If the ATI card needs tuning the nVidia guys rammble over us.
If the nVidia card needs tuning the ATI guys rammble over them.

Its the same thing as always:) Exept that this is about a guy who posted something not 100% correctly :rolleyes: LOL
 
PLANT said:
This post is going to make a lot more sense to nvidia guys when they are hacking their hl2 code for 2fps trying to make par.
Click to expand...

haha your funny, i think you got it backwards. maybe ati will need another hack for that.

In all seriousness ati and nvidia in all the beta benchmarks for HL2 are on an equal level, if not leaning towards nvidia a little bit. i highly doubt somehow ati is going to make a huge increase in performance over the beta, its possible but i doubt it. with sm 3.0 support, and probably more solid drivers by then they should be equal at the least.
 
PLANT said:
This post is going to make a lot more sense to nvidia guys when they are hacking their hl2 code for 2fps trying to make par.
Click to expand...

omg your being just as bad as nvidia !!!!!!s were with doom 3. now that we have the final version some of the 'exaggerated scores' are actually true. now this may also happen with half life 2 (i certainly don't have a time machine to go find out), however lets hope [H]ardOCP gets to do half life 2 like it did doom 3 so we can find out in advance to stop this mindless drivel of 'nvidia is teh best><0orz even in teh half l1fe 2' 'nvidia teh opengl ati teh pwn><orz it in teh directx' 'i have teh final half l1e 2 and ati pwn><0rz nvidia with teh gord0n's crowb4r'

/rant
 
^eMpTy^ said:
By the same token you can stay away from my posts...nobody is forcing you to respond...shithead

Whether I own an ATi card or not has nothing to do with the matter...the problem is this guy stirred up a whole bunch of shit and has a whole bunch of people talking about NOTHING...this hack is just that...a HACK...I appreciate that the guy wants to help out ATi users and that's great...but I think he should leave the matter in the quite capable hands of the ATi driver team and id software instead of posting IQ reducing hacks and claiming they're the ATi/Doom3 performance holy grail...

I say again, irresponsible and unprofessional...this is now posted on every major hardware website I know of...and for what? 3-4fps and some artifacts? thanks Humus, just what ATi needed, more image quality issues...
Click to expand...

no need to insult
 
Mr.Magneplanar said:
Well we are all the same.

If the ATI card needs tuning the nVidia guys rammble over us.
If the nVidia card needs tuning the ATI guys rammble over them.

Its the same thing as always:) Exept that this is about a guy who posted something not 100% correctly :rolleyes: LOL
Click to expand...

i know but the 'debate' was changing a little and it was more of a post on a comment somone made earlier
 
TBH Humus' attitude is starting to get on my nerves.

Look at the way he phrased his original post:

Humus said:
Conclusion and discussion:
I don't want to complain about Carmack's work, I still consider him to be the industry leader in graphics engines. Though when I read the shader it striked me how many texture accesses it did compared to the relatively short shader, even for stuff that could just as well be done with math for a small cost in instructions. Using a dependent texture lookup for POW evaluation makes a lot of sense for R200 level hardware due to instruction set limits, but for R300 and up it's much better to just spend the three cycles it takes to evaluate POW with math instead of risking texture cache trashing with a dependent texture read, which may be much more costly, especially since the access pattern in this case will be far from linear. Also, using math improves the quality too, even though it may not be very noticable in this game.
Click to expand...

In other words, he is questioning Carmack's competency in programming for the R3xx series. Very big-headed of him and disrespectful, especially when his "40% speed increase" resulted in reduced IQ and artifacts.

I've addressed this with Humus before, and whether its "Nvidia can consider themselves pwned!" or his implication that he knows how to program the Doom3 engine better for R3XX cards better than Carmack, Humus needs to adjust his attitude. He may have made some clever 3D demos, but he isn't even remotely in Carmack's league. He needs to deflate his ego a bit, especially when its attached to ATI.
 
CrimandEvil said:
Yeah but PS3.0 and Ultra Shadow I might add are designed to give a performance boost without compromising the IQ.

I seem to remember quite a few ATI people saying the say thing about NV30 but now that people have to reduce IQ with the X800 they seem to be singing a different tune now. Just something I've noticed. ;)
Click to expand...

You didn't notice jack.
 
tornadotsunamilife said:
omg your being just as bad as nvidia !!!!!!s were with doom 3. now that we have the final version some of the 'exaggerated scores' are actually true. now this may also happen with half life 2 (i certainly don't have a time machine to go find out), however lets hope [H]ardOCP gets to do half life 2 like it did doom 3 so we can find out in advance to stop this mindless drivel of 'nvidia is teh best><0orz even in teh half l1fe 2' 'nvidia teh opengl ati teh pwn><orz it in teh directx' 'i have teh final half l1e 2 and ati pwn><0rz nvidia with teh gord0n's crowb4r'

/rant
Click to expand...

Is it me, or has anyoneone else trouble decyphing the last couple of lines ?!?! :confused:
 
let me see if I got this right, enter h4X0r get 40% increase in FPS that is actually a 5% increase but your image quality drops significantly and there are artifacts everywhere as well as complete areas of the map lit up bright white (when they weren't before)....

A warning to many of you considering this, there is a good deal of visual artifacts from this "hack"...I know everyone is singing it praise, but if Carmack himself had done this we would all be bitching to high heaven about "lame programming" that produces visual artifacts.


I have my very own hack that gives you 40% increas in FPS with no artifacts GUARANTEED:

Start DOOM 3 as you normally would

hit escape to skip opening animation and bring up the menu

at the menu select options

select "system" from the submenu

under the "video quality" setting move it from:

ULTRA QUALITY down to HIGH QUALITY

or

HIGH QUALITY down to MEDIUM QUALITY

(and so on)

next, select the "screen size" option setting and move it from:

1600 x 1200 down to 1280 x 1024

or

1280 x 1024 down to 1024 x 768

(and so on)





.....


I tried this, and I got a 40% increase in frame rate with no visual artifiacts ;) :rolleyes: ;)
 
Im curious. Every single Nvidia person and perhaps a few ATI people are saying that Carmack would have done this if it helped but left it the way it was for a reason. Does Carmack never make one single mistake in any of his programming? Is he the first game developer to get everything 100% perfect the first time?

All the talk about losing image quality when sometime you have to stop everything your doing and take time to examine the most minute parts of a map that most people dont look twice at to find something wrong. I tried the hack and while I only got 4fps increase I didnt notice any image quality problems anywhere. Did I stop and spend a few minutes inspecting each and every pixel on any map? No. It ran just like it did before without any problems for me.

The Nvidia lovers say that 4fps doesn't make one bit of difference. If the official benchmarks showed only a 4fps difference between the x800 and the 6800 would you be saying the same thing? Of course not.

And D3 looks absolutely gorgeous on my 9800Pro so all the Nvidia people saying that ATI's can't run D3 worth a crap (who don't know since they dont have any ATI cards) provide proof that ATI cards are incapable of running D3 at all. And i'm not talking about spitting out the official benchmarks. Nvidia people themselves say that fps mean nothing only IQ even though they tought that Nvidia has the highest fps. So which is Nvidia fans? IQ or FPS that matter the most?
 
BoogerBomb said:
Did I stop and spend a few minutes inspecting each and every pixel on any map?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately major respectable software companies do not have this luxury, they have to make sure their stuff runs as well as possible without glitches for their customer. It would have been unacceptable for id to release Doom3 with some of the artifacts this shader replacement code causes.

So which is Nvidia fans? IQ or FPS that matter the most?
Click to expand...

Both are important, and the 6800 series offers the best of both in Doom3.
 
all you guys can complain about this hack, cheat, whatever but i just did it and scored 1.6 more fps in the timedemo, 24.7 to 26.3 thats a 6.5% gain, not to mention faster game play. and i dont see any sacrifice in iq. Thanks
 
well if you believe in synthetic benchmaarks then FPS is the only thing that matters, however i find visual quality more important, and don't notice FPS until i use something like FRAPS and have the numbers in the corner.
 
tranCendenZ said:
TBH Humus' attitude is starting to get on my nerves.

Look at the way he phrased his original post:



In other words, he is questioning Carmack's competency in programming for the R3xx series. Very big-headed of him and disrespectful, especially when his "40% speed increase" resulted in reduced IQ and artifacts.

I've addressed this with Humus before, and whether its "Nvidia can consider themselves pwned!" or his implication that he knows how to program the Doom3 engine better for R3XX cards better than Carmack, Humus needs to adjust his attitude. He may have made some clever 3D demos, but he isn't even remotely in Carmack's league. He needs to deflate his ego a bit, especially when its attached to ATI.
Click to expand...

Ruined, considering you're so into that thread I'm surprised you're even coming here with that. The guy didn't even remotely come close to questioning Carmack's competency as a programmer so just end that right there. Also I'm darn sure you saw the posts from him and others mentioning that this would need to be more properly implemented into the engine to work perfectly.

Either way, the fact still remains that this method certainly improves performance on r3xx/r420 based cards and has no detrimental performance to nv40 based cards. The only cards that actually loose performance using this shader code (and is quite possibly, the reason to why it is in the arb2 pathway in the first place) are those based on the nv3x line (which originally had its their pathway).
 
With altered .pak file: 41.7 fps in demo1.
Original .pak file: 41.8 fps in demo1.

9700pro, Omega 4.7 drivers, 1024x768 med quality.
 
BoogerBomb said:
Im curious. Every single Nvidia person and perhaps a few ATI people are saying that Carmack would have done this if it helped but left it the way it was for a reason. Does Carmack never make one single mistake in any of his programming? Is he the first game developer to get everything 100% perfect the first time?

All the talk about losing image quality when sometime you have to stop everything your doing and take time to examine the most minute parts of a map that most people dont look twice at to find something wrong. I tried the hack and while I only got 4fps increase I didnt notice any image quality problems anywhere. Did I stop and spend a few minutes inspecting each and every pixel on any map? No. It ran just like it did before without any problems for me.

The Nvidia lovers say that 4fps doesn't make one bit of difference. If the official benchmarks showed only a 4fps difference between the x800 and the 6800 would you be saying the same thing? Of course not.

And D3 looks absolutely gorgeous on my 9800Pro so all the Nvidia people saying that ATI's can't run D3 worth a crap (who don't know since they dont have any ATI cards) provide proof that ATI cards are incapable of running D3 at all. And i'm not talking about spitting out the official benchmarks. Nvidia people themselves say that fps mean nothing only IQ even though they tought that Nvidia has the highest fps. So which is Nvidia fans? IQ or FPS that matter the most?
Click to expand...

wrong...wrong...and wrong again...

nobody said Carmack is god...just he's god compared to Humus...

if you don't care about image quality enough to notice these artifacts then that's fine for you...however you'll find most people have higher standards...

I know what the difference in fps is between the X800 and the 6800s is in Doom3...and it doesn't matter...what does matter is that with a 6800NU you can get basically the same performance as an XTPE...not to mention the pro which just gets trounced...everyone likes to say it was just a few fps...we all know it was a lot more than that...

I'm sure your 9800pro runs D3 just fine...nobody is saying anything about your card...you're imagining things...so stop your paranoid raving...

And to answer your question...there is no excuse for poor image quality in this day and age...as long as the game is playable I will never sacrifice image quality for performance...
 
themorningbells said:
With altered .pak file: 41.7 fps in demo1.
Original .pak file: 41.8 fps in demo1.

9700pro, Omega 4.7 drivers, 1024x768 med quality.
Click to expand...

Those of you that are testing in Medium Quality (which defaults to no AF) please be aware that the gains are to be made with AF on, as stated many times over in the thread.
 
BoogerBomb said:
Im curious. Every single Nvidia person and perhaps a few ATI people are saying that Carmack would have done this if it helped but left it the way it was for a reason. Does Carmack never make one single mistake in any of his programming? Is he the first game developer to get everything 100% perfect the first time?
Click to expand...

The point is this. If John Carmack did this, every single person on the planet would be eating his lunch and talking smack on him for his lame programming skills because of all the artificats and tearing....

...someone in the forums does this and they are now smarter than Carmack and people are going on rants about "Carmack isn't so smart" or "even Carmack makes mistakes".

Last time I checked, Carmack is still the one making the games and we are still the people in forums somewhere MMQ'ing (Monday Morning Quarterbacking) his programming skills.
 
Everett said:
all you guys can complain about this hack, cheat, whatever but i just did it and scored 1.6 more fps in the timedemo, 24.7 to 26.3 thats a 6.5% gain, not to mention faster game play. and i dont see any sacrifice in iq. Thanks
Click to expand...

Switch on bilinear filtering and turn down ansitropic filtering to 2x if you have it at 8x while you're at it, you will get more performance boosts and probably won't see any IQ sacrifice :)
 
Steve said:
Last time I checked, Carmack is still the one making the games and we are still the people in forums somewhere MMQ'ing (Monday Morning Quarterbacking) his programming skills.
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truth. heh this is sigworthy
 
gordon151 said:
Ruined, considering you're so into that thread I'm surprised you're even coming here with that. The guy didn't even remotely come close to questioning Carmack's competency as a programmer so just end that right there. Also I'm darn sure you saw the posts from him and others mentioning that this would need to be more properly implemented into the engine to work perfectly.

Either way, the fact still remains that this method certainly improves performance on r3xx/r420 based cards and has no detrimental performance to nv40 based cards. The only cards that actually loose performance using this shader code (and is quite possibly, the reason to why it is in the arb2 pathway in the first place) are those based on the nv3x line (which originally had its their pathway).
Click to expand...

I find it ironic how the owners of nvidia cards are the most opinionated about this thread.
 
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