Doom 3 shader mod for ++ performance

[KakimotoR]

and if they have problem with the humus trick, dun flame it but solve the problem for them, they might give u a smile and a thanx. doesn't that feel much better than fighting with each other?

PIECE to all ATi and NIVIDA users. we are just ATi and NIVIDIA's Guinea Pigs. We dun need fight for them, we fight for ourselves and get problems and bugs send to their department so they can work on it instead of us having headaches with all this, right?

 

[rancor]

Humus never did this as an ATI employee and he has stated as such. Where did he say that ATI says do this for better performance? That is like saying that everything you do in your private life is a direct reflection upon the company you work for. He has added that his opinions and actions and such are his and not ATI's. Can the guy not help out the community as a gamer?

No one is saying he should or shouldn't but to say I don't know why Carmack didn't do this in the first place, elludes to something entirely different.

 

[SuperRob]

Humus is an ATI employee and has the methods and means to contact John Carmack in private, and address any shader concerns he had with him through those channels. There was no need for him to bust open and crticize his code on a public forum without even talking to him first when Humus works for ATI and has the ability to contact him in private.

Kind of shady thats all, there was no need for all this public hoopla over it.

I don't want to complain about Carmack's work, I still consider him to be the industry leader in graphics engines. Though when I read the shader it striked me how many texture accesses it did compared to the relatively short shader, even for stuff that could just as well be done with math for a small cost in instructions. Using a dependent texture lookup for POW evaluation makes a lot of sense for R200 level hardware due to instruction set limits, but for R300 and up it's much better to just spend the three cycles it takes to evaluate POW with math instead of risking texture cache trashing with a dependent texture read, which may be much more costly, especially since the access pattern in this case will be far from linear. Also, using math improves the quality too, even though it may not be very noticable in this game.

I should point out though that I'm not sure if the constant specular factor 16 that I chose is the one that the game uses, so output may be slightly different, but if this solution will be worked into the game in a future patch, then this is easily configurable by the game so that there won't be a difference, except a lot faster.

An interesting follow-up discussion may be why this dependent texture lookup is much slower on our hardware than on nVidia. Maybe there's an architectural difference that's to blame, or maybe something else? The main point here though is that this should be good enough proof that ATI hardware can run Doom3 just as good if not better than nVidia, and that we can pass on all the "ATI suck in OpenGL", "ATI's drivers suck" etc. into the trashcan where it belongs.

I don't see where he's criticizing the work, just pointing out something that can be done better on ATI's hardware, if one so chooses. Carmack has responded saying basically that it was done to keep one path for current hardware, which is a choice, no less valid than any other.

What else is the Internet for except for debate? If this had been done in private, then many people wouldn't be benefiting from this hack today, including possibly Carmack himself. The point was that it is POSSIBLE to optimize for hardware. In fact, I bet if someone wanted to, they could squeeze more performance out of nVidia hardware too. Carmack made a deliberate choice not to, and that's fine. And now we can tweak it to suit our needs, which is just as fine.

 

[KakimotoR]

I don't see where he's criticizing the work, just pointing out something that can be done better on ATI's hardware, if one so chooses. Carmack has responded saying basically that it was done to keep one path for current hardware, which is a choice, no less valid than any other.

What else is the Internet for except for debate? If this had been done in private, then many people wouldn't be benefiting from this hack today, including possibly Carmack himself. The point was that it is POSSIBLE to optimize for hardware. In fact, I bet if someone wanted to, they could squeeze more performance out of nVidia hardware too. Carmack made a deliberate choice not to, and that's fine. And now we can tweak it to suit our needs, which is just as fine.

GOD I love ur 2GB RAM I only have 1GB Dual Channel kit
Wat frequency are u running with that RAM?

 

[rancor]

He is saying he doesn't want to critize his work but by doing so he is......

 

[101998]

Humus is an ATI employee and has the methods and means to contact John Carmack in private, and address any shader concerns he had with him through those channels. There was no need for him to bust open and crticize his code on a public forum without even talking to him first when Humus works for ATI and has the ability to contact him in private.

Kind of unprofessional thats all, there was no need for all this public hoopla over it and its not very respectful towards carmack.

Your totaly right, all those people out there making mods for doom 3 might as well be giving JC the finger. Those motherfuckers, because we all know devs are infallible and the community NEVER improves upon anything.

Just curious, how do you think this is this disrespectful towards JC?

 

[SuperRob]

GOD I love ur 2GB RAM I only have 1GB Dual Channel kit
Wat frequency are u running with that RAM?

Just the standard frequency. I don't overclock my system. I'm only running the 2GB because it was cheap when I got the sticks. I've been debating setting up a 1GB RAM drive to run my games in.

 

[rancor]

If this had been done in private, then many people wouldn't be benefiting from this hack today, including possibly Carmack himself.

Right there what does that say to you

 

[theelviscerator]

Please all this talk about offending carmack really is funny..

imitation is the sincerest form of flattery remember....

and last I checked he wasn't on the list of common deities....

 

[rancor]

Please all this talk about offending carmack really is funny..

imitiation is the sincerest form of flattery remember....

and last I checked he wasn't on the list of common deities....

If someone said that to me and I specificallly wrote a shader so it would work the same way on all cards, I would be pretty ticked.

 

[KakimotoR]

the only things that I dun like about Humus is that he said it will give u 40% increase in performance and done nothing about Image Quality issues.

and I dun really think that being an ATi employee should change the code himself in DOOM3 game instead of Carmack himself.

Just like FarCry. Crystek have made new paths for both ATi and NVIDIA, that's better idea than Graphic card company change them.

Just like 3DMarks, u wouldn't want Graphic card company to change codes in 3DMark to give them better scores do u?

 

[101998]

Right there what does that say to you

Humus knows more about ati's hardware and the way it executes code than carmack. So? He emailed JC, told him as a fan of the game and a member of the community what he found. Humus already said the things he does at ati don't deal with contacting devs about engine support on ati cards. I don’t think JC has publicly stated that he was god and he can do no wrong. I guess we will all find out how he feels about it when Rev over at b3d posts some of the emails from JC.

 

[rancor]

Humus knows more about ati's hardware and the way it executes code than carmack. So? He emailed JC, told him as a fan of the game and a member of the community what he found. Humus already said the things he does at ati don't deal with contacting devs about engine support on ati cards. I don’t think JC has publicly stated that he was god and he can do no wrong. I guess we will all find out how he feels about it when Rev over at b3d posts some of the emails from JC.

I'm not saying that, if he left out the whole JC thing would have changed the end result of the new shader? He should have alittle bit more respect for JC then just state that he could have done it this way, which I have, thats going a bit beyond yourself.

 

[SuperRob]

Right there what does that say to you

It says exactly what I said. Now that Carmack knows that this has been found, there's a decision to be made. What ends up coming from that only he knows, but there is a benefit there, regardless. Knowledge always had a benefit. You could say that the entire community has benefited from this "discovery". It's even possible that Carmack might allow outsiders to write additional shader paths, since he didn't want to do it. I guess we'll see. But the point was that debating these things openly is always for the best. Come on, if this had been done in private, then "leaked" later, there would have been an even larger outcry!

As far as whether or not it is proper for an ATI employee, or anyone else, for that matter, to modify the shaders ... consider the fact that the files are not secured in any way. If Carmack and id didn't want the files to be modified by anyone, don't you think they would have used a more secure packing method?

 

[101998]

If someone said that to me and I specificallly wrote a shader so it would work the same way on all cards, I would be pretty ticked.

You’re saying arb2 is designed to execute different paths? Because I was under the impression that is how it was designed (to execute the same way on different cards).

 

[rancor]

It says exactly what I said. Now that Carmack knows that this has been found, there's a decision to be made. What ends up coming from that only he knows, but there is a benefit there, regardless. Knowledge always had a benefit. You could say that the entire community has benefited from this "discovery". It's even possible that Carmack might allow outsiders to write additional shader paths, since he didn't want to do it. I guess we'll see. But the point was that debating these things openly is always for the best. Come on, if this had been done in private, then "leaked" later, there would have been an even larger outcry!

Thats true, but I wouldn't want to get a mod with new shaders written by someone else other then the development team I'm sorry but they know what thier engine can handle and its tested very well.

 

[rancor]

You’re saying arb2 is designed to execute different paths? Because I was under the impression that is how it was designed (to execute the same way on different cards).

No carmack wrote it to work the same on all cards, Humus doesn't.

 

[SuperRob]

No carmack wrote it to work the same on all cards, Humus doesn't.

Not true. Humus' code would work the exact same way on all cards too, if it had been what was shipped. It is simply a different choice in how to render the scene. The only way that this would not work the same on all cards would be to create a different rendering path based on detecting hardware, like the other paths already do.

 

[KakimotoR]

Not true. Humus code would work the exact same way on all cards too, if it had been what was shipped. It is simply a different choice in how to render the scene. The only way that this would not work the same on all cards would be to create a different rendering path based on detecting hardware, like the other paths already do.

Yes u r right, but with this hack might work better on ATi , I think that's wat he is saying.

 

[rancor]

Not true. Humus code would work the exact same way on all cards too, if it had been what was shipped. It is simply a different choice in how to render the scene. The only way that this would not work the same on all cards would be to create a different rendering path based on detecting hardware, like the other paths already do.

The render paths are there, thats why you had to uncomment some of the codes thats what I thought I saw in the beginning of that thread.

 

[theelviscerator]

If someone said that to me and I specificallly wrote a shader so it would work the same way on all cards, I would be pretty ticked.

oooh so you are ticked anyways right?

lol.....rancor means what... bitter and resentful, full of deep seated ill will...

yes thats about right...

 

[tranCendenZ]

Humus knows more about ati's hardware and the way it executes code than carmack. So? He emailed JC, told him as a fan of the game and a member of the community what he found. Humus already said the things he does at ati don't deal with contacting devs about engine support on ati cards. I don’t think JC has publicly stated that he was god and he can do no wrong. I guess we will all find out how he feels about it when Rev over at b3d posts some of the emails from JC.

There was no need to go public with this. Did you see Nvidia post the Shader Model 3.0 patch on Beyond3D before it was officially available from FarCry even though it could have given boosts to Nvidia users? No. Does Humus work for a graphics company? Yes. Could he have done this the proper way through the proper private channels instead of publically busting open carmacks code and "fixing" it his way since he works for ATI? Yes.

So the question is, why did he go through the public channel?

Could be any number of reasons:
A) Because he didn't want to wait to do it the official way and just wanted to get the tweak out there after he discovered it, and didn't think it would be a big deal. Totally innocent, just wanting to help, just never thought about the negative impacts of what he did and said and how they may reflect on Carmack and his engine being that he is an ATI representative, not to mention the community reaction.

B) To attempt to lessen Nvidia's Doom3 performance lead with an unofficial release that might not translate into an official patch, similar to how he did with the sm2.0b Dynamic Branching Demo & Nvidia's Shader Model 3.0 when the FarCry patch came out... because of personal negative feelings towards nvidia who didn't hire him; to quote humus when he released the dynamic branching demo: "nvidia can consider themselves pwned!"

C) To attempt to lessen Nvidia's Doom3 performance lead with an unofficial release that might not translate into an official patch, similar to how he did with the sm2.0b Dynamic Branching Demo & Nvidia's Shader Model 3.0 when the FarCry patch came out... under the supervision of ATI, as something like this could never be officially released by ATI themselves. One can say Humus did it on personal time all one wants, but in the end he does work for ATI; plus, 2 out of the 3 "personal" demos he programmed since he was hired by ATI used ATI-specific technology designed to show that ATI is as good or better than Nvidia in the areas the demos showcased, and his Doom3 tweak only improves performance on ATI cards, not NV cards.

D) Because he has a big ego and wanted to feed it, including publically examining and changing Carmack's code to what he felt was better.

Could be any of these reasons, but those are some ideas.

Should what Humus have done be a model graphic companies should follow? Should Nvidia get a rep in beyond3d that can bust open half life 2's shaders if they suspect optimization can be done, then tell gabe how he didn't optimize properly and provide a optimized fix? Should all new games just be busted open and reoptimized by representatives of the respective companies in public forums? It's a slippery slope.

 

[101998]

No carmack wrote it to work the same on all cards, Humus doesn't.

Ah I misread your comment. Eh, in the end it is one guy changing a piece of the game, no different from a modder putting a flashlight on a gun. Some people may like it others may not, I'll agree to disagree on this issue as it seems no one is about to change their stance.

 

[theelviscerator]

Ah I misread your comment. Eh, in the end it is one guy changing a piece of the game, no different from a modder putting a flashlight on a gun. Some people may like it others may not, I'll agree to disagree on this issue as it seems no one is about to change their stance.

think of it like an omega driver...nobody is having a hissy fit about those are they?

 

[rancor]

oooh so you are ticked anyways right?

lol.....rancor means what... bitter and resentful, full of deep seated ill will...

yes thats about right...

you are going on my ignore list, just like 90% of the people have already done.

 

[rancor]

Ah I misread your comment. Eh, in the end it is one guy changing a piece of the game, no different from a modder putting a flashlight on a gun. Some people may like it others may not, I'll agree to disagree on this issue as it seems no one is about to change their stance.

Hey I might be wrong i didn't go through what Humus did, just read tidbit here and there.

 

[SuperRob]

Nothing was uncommented from the code. One line for one shader instruction was commented and replaced with another.

TEX	R1, specular, texture[6], 2D;

... is replaced with ...

MAD_SAT R1, specular, 5.0, -4.0;

That's the entirety of the "hack". All it does is change from doing a texture lookup to doing a mathematical operation, with the ATI cards benefiting from their prowess with mathematical computations. The nVidia cards are better with the texture lookups.

Carmack has said that he used a texture lookup here because he did the same thing on the other rendering paths. That's all that this amounts to. Yes, this hack works better on ATI hardware, there isn't much of a point in changing something that will not give you a performance boost. I'm sure that there are hacks that could benefit nVidia hardware too. Will id ever "officially" support this one? I don't know. But given that id designed the game to be modifyable, and that he's apparently not concerned about this, I don't think it matters. I'm sure there will be a lot more of these sorts of hacks to come, and I think we'll be squeezing performance out of Carmack's excellent engine for years to come.

 

[fallguy]

Just like 3DMarks, u wouldn't want Graphic card company to change codes in 3DMark to give them better scores do u?

It is not the same. One is a game, the other is a benchmark only. Giving people the option to get more frames, while retaining virtually all of the same IQ is not a bad idea. If people do not like it, they do not have to use it.

How this can be a bad thing, is beyond me. Besides, a "Graphic card company" didnt change the code. Humus did this without any endorsement from ATi, just on his own. Many people are glad he did it.

 

[rancor]

Nothing was uncommented from the code. One line for one shader instruction was commented and replaced with another.

TEX	R1, specular, texture[6], 2D;

... is replaced with ...

MAD_SAT R1, specular, 5.0, -4.0;

That's the entirety of the "hack". All it does is change from doing a texture lookup to doing a mathematical operation, with the ATI cards benefiting from their prowess with mathematical computations. The nVidia cards are better with the texture lookups.

Carmack has said that he used a texture lookup here because he did the same thing on the other rendering paths. That's all that this amounts to. Yes, this hack works better on ATI hardware, there isn't much of a point in changing something that will not give you a performance boost. I'm sure that there are hacks that could benefit nVidia hardware too. Will id ever "officially support this one? I don't know. But given that id designed the game to be modifyable, and that he's apparently not concerned about this, I don't think it matters. I'm sure there will be a lot more of these sorts of hacks to come, and I think we'll be squeezing performance out of Carmack's excellent engine for years to come.

Ah ok cool just misread it cool thx for the info. Yep I'm sure this engine will last a good amount of time though. Well until ray tracing becomes main stream. From now on just adding different shaders

 

[avatar_of_might]

It is not the same. One is a game, the other is a benchmark only. Giving people the option to get more frames, while retaining virtually all of the same IQ is not a bad idea. If people do not like it, they do not have to use it.

How this can be a bad thing, is beyond me. Besides, a "Graphic card company" didnt change the code. Humus did this without any endorsement from ATi, just on his own. Many people are glad he did it.

agreed
i am still amazed how this thread continues to grow, im about to go to sleep and im worried just how big it will be when i wake up

 

[SuperRob]

What I find really amusing about all of this is that the most downloaded mod for the game is the one that enables the flashlight when you're using a weapon. Gives a 20FPS hit to performance in most places, definitely changes the image quality and even the mood of the game, but people want it anyway.

 

[avatar_of_might]

What I find really amusing about all of this is that the most downloaded mod for the game is the one that enables the flashlight when you're using a weapon. Gives a 20FPS hit to performance in most places, definitely changes the image quality and even the mood of the game, but people want it anyway.

well my friend who is hosting the current lan party im at uses it cause he cant stand switching back between his weapon and flashlight, gets spooked by stuff in the dark corners. personally i think it takes away from the atmosphere of the game. nothing better than to have a demon jump out of a dark corner and scare the crap out of you.

 

[KakimotoR]

agreed
i am still amazed how this thread continues to grow, im about to go to sleep and im worried just how big it will be when i wake up

haha I have the same feeling here, scared to go sleep and come back with 20 pages more.

 

[KakimotoR]

It is not the same. One is a game, the other is a benchmark only. Giving people the option to get more frames, while retaining virtually all of the same IQ is not a bad idea. If people do not like it, they do not have to use it.

How this can be a bad thing, is beyond me. Besides, a "Graphic card company" didnt change the code. Humus did this without any endorsement from ATi, just on his own. Many people are glad he did it.

Yes u are right totally, for game it's totally up to u how u want to play with it.

BUt I was just giving out my opinions that I would like John Carmack himself to release some new paths one for ATi and one for NVIDIA.

 

[101998]

.

You make me lauph, typing all that like your in the know on graphics issues. But for the sake of arguement (and I love to argue) I will respond :

There was no need to go public with this. Did you see Nvidia post the Shader Model 3.0 patch on Beyond3D before it was officially available from FarCry even though it could have given boosts to Nvidia users? No. Does Humus work for a graphics company? Yes. Could he have done this the proper way through the proper private channels instead of publically busting open carmacks code and "fixing" it his way since he works for ATI? Yes.

1st : When the 1.2 Far Cry patch was released, exactly how many driver files / config settings did you have to change to get it to work? And you had to install, at the time, beta directx software on you system. Quite official like.

So the question is, why did he go through the public channel?

Maybe because he wants to look really cool and get the chicks, everyone knows chicks dig guys who post shader code on the internet.

Could be any number of reasons:
A) Because he didn't want to wait to do it the official way and just wanted to get the tweak out there after he discovered it, and didn't think it would be a big deal. Totally innocent, just wanting to help, just never thought about the negative impacts of what he did and said.

Holy shit, he is a member of the community. God forbid anyone from a graphics company browse forums and *gasp* enjoy it.

B) To attempt to deflate Nvidia's Doom3 performance with an unofficial release that might not translate into an official patch, similar to how he did with the sm2.0b Dynamic Branching Demo & Nvidia's Shader Model 3.0 when the FarCry patch came out... because of personal negative feelings towards nvidia who didn't hire him; to quote humus when he released the dynamic branching demo: "nvidia can consider themselves pwned!"

I know you read all the nvida pr stuff, you quote it every chance you get. Nvidia made a huge deal about how much better their cards were because they supported dynamic branching, Humus found a way to run branching on any ps2.0 card, there by defeating the evil marketing department that didn’t do their homework.

C) To attempt to deflate Nvidia's Doom3 performance with an unofficial release that might not translate into an official patch, similar to how he did with the sm2.0b Dynamic Branching Demo & Nvidia's Shader Model 3.0 when the FarCry patch came out... under the supervision of ATI, as something like this could never be officially released by ATI themselves.

Everyone knows doom3 runs better on nvidia hardware, in case you forgot from all the other threads you post in. So why you acting like a bitch in heat with no tampon just because someone does something to lower the gap?

D) Because he has a big ego and wanted to feed it, including changing Carmack's code to what he felt was better.

Ego, ha, you sir do not have a whole lot of room to talk. I have never once seen you post anything that could not be read off an official pr statement or a box and you act like (the impression that I get anyway) you are the end all be all in graphics hardware knowage.

Could be any of these reasons, but those are some ideas.

Should what Humus have done be a model graphic companies should follow? Should Nvidia get a rep in beyond3d that can bust open half life 2's shaders if they suspect optimization can be done, then tell gabe how he didn't optimize properly and provide a optimized fix? Should all new games just be busted open and reoptimized by representatives of the respective companies? It's a slippery slope

If an nvidia rep browses the forums and busts open hl2 shaders for better performance on nvidia I would be all for it. Hell that would be damn cool. Think about it, people at both companies that actually love what they do so much that they keep doing it as a fan when they get home from work.

At no point did Humus piss in JC face. Again I say: it’s a mod. JC obviously did not want flashlights and weapons together, I don’t see you throwing a hissy fit about that. You either install it or you don’t and move on, same thing here. EDIT: Rev at b3d brought up a really good point I will add, if JC didn't want his code touched he would have just compiled it is some weird way. Look at how easy this was to do.

WEEEEEEEEEEEEE <--- me on the slope. It's fun until you hit a tree, ah well thats what medical insurance is for.

 

[tranCendenZ]

You make me lauph, typing all that like your in the know on graphics issues. But for the sake of arguement (and I love to argue) I will respond :

Glad I make you lauph. I assume you think that you are more in the know than I am from the tone of this sentence. If you wanna think that, thats cool with me.

1st : When the 1.2 Far Cry patch was released, exactly how many driver files / config settings did you have to change to get it to work? And you had to install, at the time, beta directx software on you system. Quite official like.

Don't matter, it was officially released by CryTek, it wasn't put out by Nvidia on a public forum.

Maybe because he wants to look really cool and get the chicks, everyone knows chicks dig guys who post shader code on the internet.

No comment.

Holy shit, he is a member of the community. God forbid anyone from a graphics company browse forums and *gasp* enjoy it.

He is also an employee of ATI. Sort of a "dual relationship."

I know you read all the nvida pr stuff, you quote it every chance you get. Nvidia made a huge deal about how much better their cards were because they supported dynamic branching, Humus found a way to run branching on any ps2.0 card, there by defeating the evil marketing department that didn’t do their homework.

Humus hasn't proven that dynamic branching can be done in an actual, full on complex game, only in a spinning light demo. Didn't really prove anything except that its good PR for ATI.

Everyone knows doom3 runs better on nvidia hardware, in case you forgot from all the other threads you post in. So why you acting like a bitch in heat with no tampon just because someone does something to lower the gap?

No need to be vulgar. But ATI has been reaching. How about their negative statement about partial precision in Doom3 to team radeon? That was a classic.

Ego, ha, you sir do not have a whole lot of room to talk. I have never once seen you post anything that could not be read off an official pr statement or a box and you act like (the impression that I get anyway) you are the end all be all in graphics hardware knowage.

I post things that I find interesting and/or useful. No, I don't engage in pseudo-expert talk often. Difference is I don't work for a graphics card company, and that is a very big difference.

If an nvidia rep browses the forums and busts open hl2 shaders for better performance on nvidia I would be all for it. Hell that would be damn cool. Think about it, people at both companies that actually love what they do so much that they keep doing it as a fan when they get home from work.

Great, and what happens when the company patches the game and needs the original files? What if the devs didn't want their shader code busted open and examined by a graphics card rep? What if the publisher does not appreciate the behavior? Maybe tech support doesn't want to deal with people who modded their game and broke it. After all, Humus works for ATI and could have just contacted carmack and said "hey check out this new technique I found!" instead of avoiding all these scenarios. There are too many opportunities for ATI to get burned and to sour a relationship with a dev/publisher, (not to mention forum drama we are witnessing) which is why stuff like this usually doesn't happen.

At no point did Humus piss in JC face. Again I say: it’s a mod. JC obviously did not want flashlights and weapons together, I don’t see you throwing a hissy fit about that. You either install it or you don’t and move on, same thing here.

The fact that Humus could have privately contacted JC and discuss the issue with him due to his employment at ATI makes his actions not so admirable in my eyes. I mean, if I had a working private relationship with a graphics card company, if an employee had an idea for improving one of my games, I'd expect him to contact me privately, not just post all over the net ways to fix my code. Just out of courtesy. Carmack might not care, another dev might.

Note the above A/B/C/D were not what I believed necessarily, just all possible options.

WEEEEEEEEEEEEE <--- me on the slope. It's fun until you hit a tree, ah well thats what medical insurance is for.

So basically you are hoping for optimization wars 3000, which company can out-optimize the other with just slight IQ impact, etc all in public forums too. You want graphic card companies to have control over game patches instead of game publishers and devs. Nice.

 

[trungracingdev]

Great, and what happens when the company patches the game and needs the original files? What if the devs didn't want their shader code busted open and examined by a graphics card rep? What if the publisher does not appreciate the behavior? Maybe tech support doesn't want to deal with people who modded their game and broke it. After all, Humus works for ATI and could have just contacted carmack and said "hey check out this new technique I found!" instead of avoiding all these scenarios. There are too many opportunities for ATI to get burned and to sour a relationship with a dev/publisher, (not to mention forum drama we are witnessing) which is why stuff like this usually doesn't happen.

lets point some obvious facts

1. He did it on his free time.
2. It helps some gamers.
3. Who gives a shit about what JC thinks about this?

 

[tranCendenZ]

lets point some obvious facts

1. He did it on his free time.
2. It helps some gamers.
3. Who gives a shit about what JC thinks about this?

Read my above two posts for #1 and #3.

For #2, if it was a worthwhile optimization, it could have been proposed to id software through ATI's channel with them and implemented officially in the next patch without all of this hoopla. It would have helped gamers just as much that way.

 

[101998]

I never said I knew more, I just think its funny you always present the same side of the argument with the same pr lines.

I really don't understand your perspective on this, its obvious you are an nvida fan, with good reason, you spent your hard earned money on a 6800gt and you think it&#8217;s the best choice and you&#8217;re portraying that opinion. That&#8217;s fine and all, but you are taking it so far to the next level (shutting off anything positive about ati) it is just stupid. Like reverend said : the code could not be changed so easily if carmak actually didn&#8217;t want it changed.


So basically you are hoping for optimization wars 3000, which company can out-optimize the other with just minor IQ impact.

Who doesn't want that?

 

[KakimotoR]

3. Who gives a shit about what JC thinks about this?

Bcoz this is John Carmack's creation not ATi

and please do not say " shit " this word.

Again, This is John Carmack's creation not ATi , and we care as well as John Carmack

If u dun give a shit about Carmack then dun play this game and dun make any useless and unneccessary comments.